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Spetulhu wrote:
And one has to remember that the heavy control of innovation isn't just religious dogma or stupidity, it's also based on previous experiences with going too far too quickly ie. the Men of Iron, robotic/AI servants that rebelled and almost wiped out humanity. Such can not be allowed again, which is why every improvement of existing systems goes through year- or even century-long testing instead of being rolled out the week after TechPriest Bob proposed it.

And when looking at Xeno tech one always has to be careful that it doesn't somehow corrupt the machine spirits of nearby sanctioned STC designs. Testing and possibly building a prototype based on such is a job for only the most experienced and trusted Magos who will spend centuries just on designing all the safeguards necessary.

I agree.

Just look at the Gellar Device/Aethyric Bomb STC. That thing is horrible dangerous, even in the hands of an Archmagos! So it was destroyed. We don´t do something like that just out of greed or spite, but to protect the Imperium and mankind as a whole. Or Phosphex-weaponry. Or ARCs(Atomantic Reactor Core). Or the Castigator-STC. The list is very long!
Also: You can´t let anyone mess with a Gellarfieldgenerator, a Warpcore or even a powercell of a lasrifle(spiking....), because that stuff is dangerous too. You need specialists, and the Cult Mechanicus has that job for a very good reason. A Techpriest or Engineseer knows most of the time what he/she is doing(depending on the specialisation of course.).
The Hymns are just a help to remember the stages to repair/create/maintain a machine. They are not just religious rambling. Only fools believe something like that(Astra Militarum probably...).

For retro-engineering of Xenotech:
As I am with the Ordo Reductor, that isn´t that rare of a project on my Covenant-fleet. It takes much time and is dangerous, because you have to test, deconstruct as example a pulsecarbine, understand its workings, and re-construct it with our own technology. We may not follow the Warnings to the letter, but even we know, that Xenotech is a perversion of the true path.

 Kojiro wrote:
I'd be curious to know what would happen if the Imperium rediscovered a world that was lost, isolated for some reason but otherwise intact. Imagine such a world that had existed since the Heresy?

This happens and sometimes they get tech out of it, but it suffers from the same problem (albeit to a lesser degree) that a world similarly isolated since the DAoT would be. You'd need very specific circumstances to allow that world not to regress into barbarism or otherwise preserve that knowledge, and they'd have to have the knowledge to begin with. An agri-world just might have accidentally received plans for a titan and sealed them away in the tomb of one of their governors (in the form of a nice mural) before eventually descending into feudalism, a nexus of such plans, like a sufficiently progressed mechanicum world would collapse rapidly under its own weight.

The Dark Age world's are an even worse prospect, they would have to have had a specificly neurotic society to kill off all their psykers before Old Night, but still value higher learning enough to understand the need to retain and maintain their technology level as their society and language developed in whatever direction they do during their isolation. After that, what are the odds they retained something the previously recovered world's did not?

They legalized weed, kills ambition and success. They all just thought someone else would pick up their slack.

Anyone who ever worked with a weed head knows what I mean.

The part that strains credulity for me is the idea that the Imperial Guard don't maintain their own gear and vehicles. Or that in all the chaos of a battle, they never work out that, say, the Russ turret stops turning left when this cable is damaged. Or the las weapons suffer beam dispersion when the barrel is damaged. It's impossible to use tech and not gain some grasping of how it function. Stress it enough- such as in combat- and you'll quickly find it's limitations. Technology exposes to war is going to get damaged, and it's going to function at various levels of efficiency. And people are gonna notice.

I just struggle with the idea they operate such massive forces without the IG being at least passingly familiar with field maintenance and repair.

 Kojiro wrote:
The part that strains credulity for me is the idea that the Imperial Guard don't maintain their own gear and vehicles.

I'm sure they do some of the basic stuff - that's what the hymns and litanies are for, after all. A way for non-technical staff to remember the correct procedures.

And I do recall reading a piece in White Dwarf where a tank crew did small repairs on their own. They'd cleaned and oiled the ventilator fan properly several times and even asked a Chaplain to bless it but it was still squeaking when the Leman Russ heated up.

Exactly. Tank crews are familiar with such things and do do basic maintenance - cleaning, replacing tracks, refuelling.

What they can't maintain are cogitators. gunsights. engine management systems. Problems deep in the bowels of the engine block.

Things which are sealed inside a shell and basically consist of a solid block of electronics, or problems with an engine which can't be replaced by pulling one block component and fitting another one fresh from stores.

locarno24 wrote:
Exactly. Tank crews are familiar with such things and do do basic maintenance - cleaning, replacing tracks, refuelling.

What they can't maintain are cogitators. gunsights. engine management systems. Problems deep in the bowels of the engine block.

Things which are sealed inside a shell and basically consist of a solid block of electronics, or problems with an engine which can't be replaced by pulling one block component and fitting another one fresh from stores.

And just because you can replace broken piece or do rudimentary field repair doesn't mean you can innovate on it.

I can do rudimentary repairs on PC and can certainly change broken piece to new one. Doesn't mean I'm able to design new and improved computer though...

And just because you can replace broken piece or do rudimentary field repair doesn't mean you can innovate on it.

Well, as long as the 'innovation' is "take this pre-existing modular weapon and fit it in the weapon mount normally occupied by this pre-existing modular weapon", that's ultimately just a job requiring some spannering, welding and duct tape - which is why simple 'variants' like the Predator Annihalator, Land Raider Crusader, Thunderer Siege Tank, and so on, are perfectly believable.

Designing a 'new' weapon - or one which involves integrating new weapon mounts in the first place - is a task requiring more skill and/or a starting point of an STC. Which is why adding a pintle-mounted storm bolter (which, again is just a welding job) is simple enough, but adding the powered, remotely aimed turret for a razorback required them to find an STC.

And don´t even think of touching the Machinespirit, or else.....

A couple of things:

１）In general, war does not breed innovation.　　　What it does is push some theory into practise.　　　　WW２ did not spur new ideas.　　　It took　ideas　that　were　already　out　there　and　gave　governments　a　reason　to　fund　practical　uses.　　　However, once you have tapped all the theory that is already　there,　innovation　dies　out.　　　You　are　pushing　so　many　resources　into　the　conflict,　that pure research is seen as a waste. 40000 years of war? You would not be able to requistion the rare and valuable resources you need into a project that either will not work or will take decades of experimentation to give a theory that you may or may not be able to apply. Better to use it on stuff that works.

2) The Romans and the Chinese did actively suppress innovation. Why? Because it would disrupt the social order. Roman Emperors suppressed steam power, because of the effect it would have on a slave based economy. What do you with millions of slaves with nothing to do because you have replaced them with steam power. The Chinese suppressed innovations with gunpowder and the printing press because you do not want a huge population that can already be fractious to be literate and armed with dangerous weapons that would be a threat to your imperial forces.

3) Most of the knowledge that was regained in the early Renaissance did not come from Catholic monasteries. It came from captured Muslim libraries in Spain, where they had actually preserved and improved upon earlier Greek, Roman and Egyptian knowledge. Yes, they found Roman law in monasterial texts, and it gave them a framework for putting order to the late medieval period. But do not give them credit for spurring the Renaissance. The Catholic Church suppressed what could challenge their authority, and technological innovation definately did so. The catechism was to concentrate on the City of God, not the City of Man.

So yes, it is possible to suppress knowledge and innovation if you are dedicated to doing so.

RJVF wrote:

2) The Romans and the Chinese did actively suppress innovation. Why? Because it would disrupt the social order. Roman Emperors suppressed steam power, because of the effect it would have on a slave based economy. What do you with millions of slaves with nothing to do because you have replaced them with steam power. The Chinese suppressed innovations with gunpowder and the printing press because you do not want a huge population that can already be fractious to be literate and armed with dangerous weapons that would be a threat to your imperial forces.

You are incorrect on the Chinese point. The Chinese government didn't suppress the printing press. The reason movable type printing didn't catch on very much was more due to the language, with its hundreds of characters as opposed to the lesser number of Roman letters. The effort spent on making movable type with Chinese characters therefore yielded less return for the effort. There was widespread woodblock printing however, so there was no such thing as government suppression. As for gunpowder, the Chinese did develop some of the first firearms (it is a myth they only used it for fireworks). What the government tried to do was suppress the spread of gunpowder outside of China. Eventually European firearms became better due to China falling behind in metallurgical technology, and that was partly from the ruling Manchu dynasty's dim view of firearms as they were descended from horse riding nomads that valued archery. The Imperial Chinese government didn't actively suppress or ban technology. They did at times neglect certain fields of technology that the ruler was not interested in, but that is different from suppression.

Inaphyt wrote:
When an STC is found and distributed to worlds to create 2 things surely some smart person would oh i don't know write down the schematics and hmm spread the information to other worlds and they too could record the schematics? this way when an STC is lost NOT A PROBLEM we wrote it down and during the process of reading the schematics we (woops) learned a lot about engineering forgive me for innovating sire but after reading all these schematics i have come to know A LOT about engineering and could probably create a fkin death star if i wanted to.

How does this make sense? could someone clear this up because by uncovering stc's you also answer a million questions about engineering and other feats.

Innovation and deviation from strict Mechanicus dogma happens all the time. And often, the Mechanicus turns a blind eye to it out of necessity.


There are a number of Imperial Guard variants of the Baneblade and Leman Russ that started out as field refits and modifications, and not officially sanctioned (or in the case of the Thunderer Siege Tank, not officially produced in any Manufactorum). Some designs are made from scratch, and are attributed to "recovered" STC printouts to satisfy ritual and dogma. And every Titan is different, since they are carefully built by hand. Thus some liberty is taken in production, and Mars looks the other way (because MOAR TITANS is a good thing).


So, innovation and creativity (to a certain point) is not necessarily forbidden. It's just that the Mechanicus prefers that it's the one doing the innovating, and their desire to hoard technology and knowledge stifling other sectors of Imperial society. They may not be as innovative as they were pre-Heresy, but they haven't completely jumped the shark yet (they are just more careful and secretive about it).

locarno24 wrote:
Exactly. Tank crews are familiar with such things and do do basic maintenance - cleaning, replacing tracks, refuelling.

What they can't maintain are cogitators. gunsights. engine management systems. Problems deep in the bowels of the engine block.

Things which are sealed inside a shell and basically consist of a solid block of electronics, or problems with an engine which can't be replaced by pulling one block component and fitting another one fresh from stores.

Very likely Imperial tank crews can do as much field maintenance as modern tank crews. ALL tanks crews can fix tracks. What Imperial tank crews cannot do is maintain or repair systems that require the proper prayers and unguents and holy oils and fervent appeals to the Omnissiah. That requires years (or decades) of proper religious instruction and experience.

40K is based on A Canticle for Leibowitz (or else it is a really amazing coincidence). A post-apocalyptic society which preserves knowledge through religious practices.

Science is not just a leisure activity. A society that sees value in innovation and the advancement of science actively promotes them. A society that fears them (for reasons of superstition or fear of losing control) actively inhibits scientific advancement. And, it's not just "evil" societies that discourage advancement. Nazi German spawned a number of innovations (arguably, for evil purposes). Additionally, scientific knowledge does not advance linearly. It advances in fits and starts, with one advance leading to others. Hence the exponential advance of science and innovation since the dawn of the Industrial age (itself dependent on advances in communication and ifrastructure). And, it's not like enlightened societies don't revert to anti-science attitudes. For a variety of reasons, in this most innovative nation, things like Stem cell research, childhood vaccinations, and even science itself are considered suspicious or unethical by some intelligent people.

There is no unethical knowledge. Only the methods to gain it can be.
Dangerous knowledge, sure.
Thats why there are the Mysteries and the Warnings

The Mysteries of the Cult Mechanicus

Life is directed motion.
The spirit is the spark of life.
Sentience is the ability to learn the value of knowledge.
Intellect is the understanding of knowledge.
Sentience is the basest form of Intellect.
Understanding is the True Path to Comprehension.
Comprehension is the key to all things.
The Omnissiah knows all, comprehends all.

The Warnings of the Cult Mechanicus

The alien mechanism is a perversion of the True Path.
The soul is the conscience of sentience.
A soul can be bestowed only by the Omnissiah.
The Soulless sentience is the enemy of all.
The knowledge of the ancients stands beyond question.
The Machine Spirit guards the knowledge of the Ancients.
Flesh is fallible, but ritual honours the Machine Spirit.
To break with ritual is to break with faith.

Innovation is being suppressed in our own times.

The Digital Camera is the first (and least controversial) example I can think of.

Copyright can justify many things, War without end can justify anything.

I loved reading about War without end in the 90's, sucks that it happened though.

40K is based on A Canticle for Leibowitz (or else it is a really amazing coincidence). A post-apocalyptic society which preserves knowledge through religious practices

40k plagiarises many different sources. Dune (navigators), Judge Dredd (judges, mega-cities), Star Wars ('force' as a phrase for psychics), Starship Troopers (powered armour, drop pods), you name it.

The idea of a church of science pops up in a couple of places. The Isaac Asimov (him of the laws of robotics) penned a science fiction story called 'Foundation' about ten years before Canticle, in which you have a deliberately manufactured church which worships 'the galactic spirit' and whose rituals are heavily disguised scientific principles, and which prospers in a collapsing empire because, as it notes - "the chief characteristic of the religion of science is that it really works".

locarno24 wrote:

40K is based on A Canticle for Leibowitz (or else it is a really amazing coincidence). A post-apocalyptic society which preserves knowledge through religious practices

40k plagiarises many different sources. Dune (navigators), Judge Dredd (judges, mega-cities), Star Wars ('force' as a phrase for psychics), Starship Troopers (powered armour, drop pods), you name it.

The idea of a church of science pops up in a couple of places. The Isaac Asimov (him of the laws of robotics) penned a science fiction story called 'Foundation' about ten years before Canticle, in which you have a deliberately manufactured church which worships 'the galactic spirit' and whose rituals are heavily disguised scientific principles, and which prospers in a collapsing empire because, as it notes - "the chief characteristic of the religion of science is that it really works".

If I remember correctly, there is also a scene in Foundation and Empire where the disguised main characters enter the Empire and talk to a member of the hereditary guild of engineers (or something along those lines) that maintains the reactor for a city. It turns out that the engineer had no idea how the reactor worked, only conducted daily operations through rote ritual, and would have been completely at a loss if it ever broke down. The idea of taking the cover off and figuring out how the reactor worked was met with outrage. Although there was no explicit religious imagery and language, it was clear that the engineer was essentially much like a 40K person, for whom technology was a black box.

Even for most people today, much technology is a black box. We may learn how to operate things and learn them by repetition and practice, maybe some simple maintenance and workarounds for minor problems. Anything more complicated we get specialists to look at it. If those people should vanish off the face of the Earth suddenly, a lot of things would start to break down.