Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello!

I am painting Space Marines in a black color scheme. But getting a matt black basecoat can be quite difficult. It sometimes turns out a bit glossy at the end. Or worse, with some parts of the model a bit glossy and other more matt.

The procedure I have been working with is the following:

1. Light grey primer from rattle can (because I don't have a black one).
2. Airbrush Minitaire Raven Black with some Vallejo Matt Medium. This take several coats and is a bit annoying to work with.
3. Brush painted a thin layer of Minitaire Raven Black with Vallejo Matt Medium.

What can I be doing wrong? My only guess at the moment is that I didn't shake the Raven Black paint pot enough. Could that be the issue?

When I want matte black I use Tamiya XF1 thinned with Gunze Self Levelling Thinner.

It's nice and matte, goes on smooth, has good coverage (2 to 3 thin coats will cover white primer), dries quickly, it's tougher than most acrylics, and it looks black... and matte.

For a slightly off-black, Tamiya make a colour called XF85 "Rubber Black". It's very slightly greyish, but usually when you're painting black you want a slightly off-black anyway and it's nice and matte as well.

Is Raven Black a matte black to start off with? Best off just using a black that is matte to begin with rather than adding matte medium to it. Most matte mediums will probably need to be shaken as well, as the matting agent tends to sink to the bottom (though I haven't tried Vallejo's so that's just a guess).

Why are you doing several coats with an airbrush and then going over it with a regular brush? If you want a matte finish you usually can't beat an airbrushed finished.

Thank you for you reply!

I were applying an extra layer with a brush because tha airbrushed coat turned out glossy.

Now, as I'm writing this, I think one explanation could be that the matt medium wasn't shaken well enough and all it did was to dilute the Raven Black and making it glossy. It could have messed up the properties of the Raven Black if it wasn't shaken enough.

Maybe that is the reason? The Raven Black is usually really matt.

Baneslayer wrote:

What can I be doing wrong? My only guess at the moment is that I didn't shake the Raven Black paint pot enough. Could that be the issue?

I've never used Raven Black myself, but someone just recently posted almost the exact same question fairly recently that was using Vallejo paints, which are my go-to's. It sounds almost identical, and I believe the issue is as simple as shaking the Raven Black or Vallejo surface primer more. Vallejo's paints are super-thin when it comes to application, and thus require a few more shakes to get everything blended properly. Sounds exactly the same issue here.

Also, if you plan on layering in black, you may want to try out Vallejo's black surface primer. Gets that matte look right out of the bottle. I'm working on a ton of Deathwatch at the moment and have been very happy with the Vallejo black surface primer. Below is an example using the torso-legs that I recently primed for my assault squad:

Head-on view:



Profile-ish view to show the way light is handled:

Thanks for the great advice! I'll keep shaking the bottles until it's no longer fun and then some more. Hopefully it'll solve the problem.

I've also ordered a paint set from Scale75 which are supposedly really matte. So I should be good when I start experimenting again this weekend!

Stop screwing around with matte mediums and just give the model a spray of dullcote. Dullcote fixes everything. Dullcote is your god.

 Peregrine wrote:
Stop screwing around with matte mediums and just give the model a spray of dullcote. Dullcote fixes everything. Dullcote is your god.

I've always found it much more reliable to start with a matte paint than take a glossy paint and make it matte with varnishes.

Tamiya XF1 is an awesome matte black, XF2 is an awesome matte white, XF3 is an awesome matte yellow, XF7 is an awesome matte red.

Assuming you're airbrushing them at least (which from what the OP said seems to be the case).

Reaper and Scale75 are very matte...
if Reaper MSP Pure Black is hard to get in Sweden, Scale75 Black SC-00 is from Europe...

cheers
jah

Reaper are so matte that I don't like airbrushing them I just found they don't airbrush all that smoothly. You usually want your airbrush paints ever so slightly glossier than the ones you hairy brush paint because the act of airbrushing tends to make them slightly more matte anyway.

Depends what you thin them with though, Humbrol Acrylic Thinners will tend to smooth out paints that are too grainy.

i actually llke my paints satin...
i hate matte paints...
i have to add P3 Armor Wash to the Reaper black before i can use it to my taste...
dude asked for matte, and that is the most matte paint i've used...

looks like he already went with Scale 75, so i'm sure he'll be fine
let us know how you like that paint, Baneslayer...

cheers
jah

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I've always found it much more reliable to start with a matte paint than take a glossy paint and make it matte with varnishes.

IMO because of decals, weathering, etc, you're going to have to do a matte varnish layer anyway. And I'm not sure what difference a matte paint vs. somewhat glossy paint is going to make when dullcote will turn even gloss varnish matte.

 Peregrine wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I've always found it much more reliable to start with a matte paint than take a glossy paint and make it matte with varnishes.

IMO because of decals, weathering, etc, you're going to have to do a matte varnish layer anyway. And I'm not sure what difference a matte paint vs. somewhat glossy paint is going to make when dullcote will turn even gloss varnish matte.

i can only speak for myself, but i like to see my colors pop while i'm painting them, and in the final pics, even though i am going to varnish them afterward...
that's why i like satin paints...
of course, i don't use decals or oil washes, so dullcote is the absolute last step, after photography...
i know a lot of painters that feel the exact opposite, and don't like seeing a shine on their paint while they work...

everyone has their different preferences, and comfortable way of working...
self-expression and fun are the beauty of this hobby, and not everyone has to work the same way, or follow a formula

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:

dude asked for matte, and that is the most matte paint i've used...

That's fine, I'm just pointing out it might not be a great paint for airbrushing.

I don't have a particular love for either matte, satin or gloss, I try and use what's appropriate for the model. Tyranid might be on the glossy side, Imperial Guardsman might be on the matte side, Space Marine might be on the satin side. With vehicles you might start with satin and then apply matte on some areas so those areas look dustier. You might have oil stains that are glossy and paint fade that is matte.

But whatever, all that aside, I was just pointing out that paints come out more matte when you airbrush them and some paints which hairy brush fine are more troublesome to airbrush or need different thinners to airbrush well. Tamiya paints are the opposite, airbrush like a dream but are troublesome to hairy brush paint.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I've always found it much more reliable to start with a matte paint than take a glossy paint and make it matte with varnishes.

IMO because of decals, weathering, etc, you're going to have to do a matte varnish layer anyway. And I'm not sure what difference a matte paint vs. somewhat glossy paint is going to make when dullcote will turn even gloss varnish matte.

Well if you're doing decals or weathering that requires a gloss coat then obviously that locks you in to a specific way of painting. If you don't then you have more flexibility and can just paint things matte to begin with.

And I'm not sure what difference a matte paint vs. somewhat glossy paint is going to make when dullcote will turn even gloss varnish matte.

Adding extra layers of varnish adds more thickness and I've always found you can get a flatter colour if you just spray matte to begin with, matte varnishes tend to haze when you try and make them really flat.

I think sometimes the haze isn't bad and some people actually like it because it acts like a bit of a filter, but I guess it depends what you want in the end.

I've often sprayed a matte paint and then varnished and not been able to get back to the same look. Sometimes the best you can do is apply a matte paint and then just do a very light matte varnish to protect it.

I think the same applies to glosses, if you can get the actual paint to be glossy it gives a different look to applying a gloss varnish to a non-glossy paint.

that's the first time i have seen anyone say they don't like Reaper through the airbrush...
i've seen tons of people say they use Master Series paint in the airbrush over the last five years...

anyways, more options are always good

cheers
jah

Well I own about half a dozen Reaper paints and I don't like airbrushing any of them

It's not that you can't airbrush them, the armour on this guy is largely airbrushed Reaper...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/719703-.html

But it's low on my list of paints I want to airbrush with. I'd much rather airbrush Vallejo and much much much rather airbrush Tamiya.

As I said you could thin them with Humbrol acrylic thinners, but I'm not sure what that would do to the matte finish of them.

i only chimed in because matte paints were specifically requested...
that's the point...
of course, the point is moot now, since he went with Scale75, a very, very matte paint...
hopefully it does the job

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
i only chimed in because matte paints were specifically requested...
that's the point...

I'm not really sure if or why we're arguing, I never said Reaper paints weren't matte, simply that if you're airbrushing like the OP is doing, Reaper would not be my preferred option. I've not used Scale75 so I can't comment.

What applies to hairy brush painting doesn't always apply to airbrushing. Airbrushed paints naturally come out more matte so even if you want a matte, you usually start with something glossier.

Look at the Vallejo air range, if you hairy brush paint with Vallejo Air it comes out on the glossy side, if you airbrush it, it comes out somewhere between matte and satin, which is why they formulated it on the glossy side to begin with.

Tamiya's XF range is formulated to be airbrushed and to be matte and it's an alcohol based paint, so naturally it is one of the better acrylics if your end goal is an airbrushed matte finish.

For some reason, I never hear anyone talk about my favorite paint. Vallejo NATO black. It's an almost magical super matte black right out of the bottle.

 Zach wrote:
For some reason, I never hear anyone talk about my favorite paint. Vallejo NATO black. It's an almost magical super matte black right out of the bottle.

Can't say I've tried that. Is it slightly greenish? Tamiya make a colour called NATO black and it's ever so slightly greenish and greyish, people like using it for tyres and instrument panels and stuff because it looks more realistic than pure black for those applications.

It leans towards purple if you really dilute it.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:
i only chimed in because matte paints were specifically requested...
that's the point...

I'm not really sure if or why we're arguing, I never said Reaper paints weren't matte, simply that if you're airbrushing like the OP is doing, Reaper would not be my preferred option. I've not used Scale75 so I can't comment.

What applies to hairy brush painting doesn't always apply to airbrushing. Airbrushed paints naturally come out more matte so even if you want a matte, you usually start with something glossier.

Look at the Vallejo air range, if you hairy brush paint with Vallejo Air it comes out on the glossy side, if you airbrush it, it comes out somewhere between matte and satin, which is why they formulated it on the glossy side to begin with.

Tamiya's XF range is formulated to be airbrushed and to be matte and it's an alcohol based paint, so naturally it is one of the better acrylics if your end goal is an airbrushed matte finish.

i don't know, are we arguing???
like i said, i know plenty of people that airbrush happily with Reaper, so i didn't think it was such a bad recommendation...
maybe i'm wrong...

it is good to have both sides' perspective...
the only real way to find out if you like a paint, in my opinion, is to try it out...
for the price of a single pot of paint, one can gain first hand knowledge...
to be honest, i like Scale75's line better, as it has richer tones...

i do appreciate your technical expertise, though...
always an interesting read

cheers
jah