Shooting at an artillery unit with attached ICs and instant death

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**col_impact**

Let's say I have an IC with 3 wounds and toughness 5 attached to an artillery unit with toughness 7.

I shoot a str 10 blast at the artillery unit and allocate a wound to the IC and the IC fails his saves.

Does the str 10 shot carry the Instant Death rule?

Relevant rules:

Instant Death

Spoiler:

SHOOTING AT ARTILLERY

Spoiler:

It seems that while you are shooting at an artillery unit, the toughness of the IC is set to 7 (as long as a gun remains) and so the wound will not carry the Instant Death rule. Am I missing something?

**Lord Perversor**

You resolve the wound check against the artillery T value.

If it wounds and the model fails it saves it's when you check the allocated wound Str with the model T for instant death.

**col_impact**

Lord Perversor wrote:
You resolve the wound check against the artillery T value.

If it wounds and the model fails it saves it's when you check the allocated wound Str with the model T for instant death.

The Instant Death rule indicates that you factor in modifiers. Since this is shooting and the IC is part of the artillery unit for all rules purposes then the ICs toughness has been set to 7 as long as one gun remains.

You seem to be going directly against the rules I quoted. Please clarify why we are not simply doing what the rules are telling us to do.

**Kommissar Kel**

The shooting at artillery rule is modifying "Multiple Toughness Values" in the shooting phase rules.

The T5 IC does not in any way change that model's T value and ID is based on a particular model's T-value.

The same situation would be a Lord Commissar attached to a unit of SM Bikes: he is still ID'd by a S6 wound.

**col_impact**

Kommissar Kel wrote:
The shooting at artillery rule is modifying "Multiple Toughness Values" in the shooting phase rules.

The T5 IC does not in any way change that model's T value and ID is based on a particular model's T-value.

The same situation would be a Lord Commissar attached to a unit of SM Bikes: he is still ID'd by a S6 wound.

It's not the same situation.

Consider . . .

Shooting at bikes

If shooting at a Bike unit, the Toughness of the bikes is always used while at least one bike remains.

This is quite clearly different than the situation you posed and the quandary still remains.

The problems with your argument are two-fold.

1) The Shooting at Artillery rule applies while 'shooting' and not merely while rolling to wound in the shooting phase. You don't have a justification for narrowing the scope.

2) A rule that tells us to always use the Toughness of X while Y is a modifier.

In other words, you say this . . .

The shooting at artillery rule is modifying "Multiple Toughness Values" in the shooting phase rules.

But the rules actually say this . . .

The shooting at artillery rule is telling us to use the Toughness of the guns if you shoot at the artillery unit.

The scope of the rule is actually much broader than you are arguing.

ACTUALLY . . .

Checked the Draft FAQ. Seems like the question was answered there.

ARTILLERY
Q: When firing at artillery units, does the gun’s Toughness value apply for the purposes of resolving Instant Death against any Independent Characters that have joined the unit?
A: No, Instant Death is worked out each time a Wound is allocated to an individual model.

**EnTyme**

So why did you ask a question if you were just going to argue with the answer?

**col_impact**

EnTyme wrote:
So why did you ask a question if you were just going to argue with the answer?

The answers provided need to pass muster and be fully justified.

Secondly, this is a discussion forum where we debate the rules. Arguing is fundamental to the process.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/How_to_Have_an_Intelligent_Rules_Debate

So basically you are expected to argue/debate in YMDC.

**Requizen**

What muster? You're just incorrectly interpreting rules and then playing word scramble when people point out the correct interpretation.

**col_impact**

Requizen wrote:
What muster? You're just incorrectly interpreting rules and then playing word scramble when people point out the correct interpretation.

Do you have an argument? Please state an argument relevant to the topic of the thread.

I pointed out the logical problems in the rules. The rule is scoped for 'if shooting . . .' and not for 'rolling to wound while shooting' so the literal way to interpret the rule is that it would affect the Instant Death and attached ICs.

The rule is unclear and problematic to the extent that both the ATC/ETC FAQ and the GW Draft FAQ have clarified the matter.

**nosferatu1001**

You're no longer shooting at the unit. You're checking for instant death, which is not tied to shooting in any way.

**col_impact**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You're no longer shooting at the unit. You're checking for instant death, which is not tied to shooting in any way.

Shooting is defined as the shooting sequence which encapsulates any ID check that occurs therein. Hence the problem of logical scoping in the rule.

Spoiler:

It's a good thing the ATC/ETC FAQ and the Draft FAQ clarified the matter.

**blaktoof**

ID uses the models Toughness versus Strength to determine if the hit causes ID.

Artillery tells you to always use the toughness of the gun for the artillery unit.

If ID is being determines as part of the shooting sequence, i.e. step 5 roll to wound and step 6 "allocate wounds and remove casualties" it is still tied to the -ALWAYS- part of the artillery rule which takes place during shooting. Both of those steps happen during shooting.

So the IC has T7 for the purposes of determining if it suffers ID or not, as it happens during shooting and the IC being part of the artillery unit always uses the guns Toughness value during shooting.

if it was assault the IC would be paste.

**Ghaz**

This is all I have to say on the matter...

**col_impact**

Ghaz wrote:
This is all I have to say on the matter...

I already pointed out the Draft FAQ answer.

The thread has become a discussion of why the RAW of the rules in question (without the FAQ) are problematic.

It's a good thing they clarified the rule interaction because if you follow the rules literally you get blaktoof's result.

**Kommissar Kel**

Multiple toughness values has the same wording as artillery: "When this happens roll to wound using the Toughness Characteristic that is in the majority in the target unit."

If you read all of the rules involved(as multiple toughness values is very much in play here), you can plainly see that "shooting at artillery" is modifying multiple toughness values in rolling to wound.

**col_impact**

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Multiple toughness values has the same wording as artillery: "When this happens roll to wound using the Toughness Characteristic that is in the majority in the target unit."

If you read all of the rules involved(as multiple toughness values is very much in play here), you can plainly see that "shooting at artillery" is modifying multiple toughness values in rolling to wound.

Incorrect. Same wording as multiple toughness values would read this way . . .

"If shooting at an artillery unit roll to wound using the Toughness Characteristic of the guns whilst at least one gun remains."

However that is much narrower in scope than the actual rule . . .

"If shooting at an Artillery unit, the Toughness of the guns is always used whilst at least one gun remains."

The scope of the rule in RAW would include both steps 5 and 6 of the shooting sequence. Hence the problem.

**Big Mac**

Wow, the OP is just dense in the head, by all means the faqs are unofficially official, so there is no point arguing.

**col_impact**

Big Mac wrote:
Wow, the OP is just dense in the head, by all means the faqs are unofficially official, so there is no point arguing.

I have no problem with accepting the Draft FAQ answer. In fact its great that we have a solution.

I have just been pointing out the logical problem in the rules as they are written if the FAQ isn't in the picture. It's good that the FAQ ammends the rules as they are written and clarifies/resolves the logical scoping problem.

**MechaEmperor7000**

So you already knew the answer despite everything up there, and still argued for this long and basically made a mountain out of an anthill. Is there any further point to this thread?

**Mr. Shine**

Is using the Toughness of the guns (necessarily?) the same as modifying the model-to-which-the-Wound-is-allocated's Toughness?

I would perhaps argue not.

**Kommissar Kel**

Well impact, lets look at the sentence after the one you quoted on shooting at artillery; "Any Wounds that are caused are still allocated to the closest model first."

This is showing you that the toughness of the guns is used for rolling to wound since, again, multiple toughness values are always in play when shooting at artillery with at least 1 gun model still alive.

As far as your other assertions go: it only says the toughness is used, not that the whole unit nor all models count as, or are modified, nor become.

ID is based on the T vs S of the model allocated the wound; much like how the model's BS never changes for snap shots(you just fire at BS1), the individual Toughness values of models within the Artillery unit never changes.

**col_impact**

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Well impact, lets look at the sentence after the one you quoted on shooting at artillery; "Any Wounds that are caused are still allocated to the closest model first."

This is showing you that the toughness of the guns is used for rolling to wound since, again, multiple toughness values are always in play when shooting at artillery with at least 1 gun model still alive.

As far as your other assertions go: it only says the toughness is used, not that the whole unit nor all models count as, or are modified, nor become.

ID is based on the T vs S of the model allocated the wound; much like how the model's BS never changes for snap shots(you just fire at BS1), the individual Toughness values of models within the Artillery unit never changes.

I appreciate your input. I am not saying anyone is wrong. I am only pointing to an ambiguity.

My understanding is that both steps 5 and 6 are part of shooting. Your understanding seems to be that only step 5 is part of shooting, What's your justification for excluding step 6 from shooting? My justification is that both steps 5 and 6 are clearly indicated to be part of the shooting sequence, which is how the game defines shooting and there is nothing specifically scoping the rule to just be step 5 and not step 6.

Presuming that step 6 is part of shooting and we are shooting at an artillery unit, there is a rule that tells us to always use the toughness of the guns as long as one gun remains. If we use the toughness of the IC model to determine ID, are we not violating the rule to always use the toughness of the guns if we are shooting at an artillery unit? There is nothing restricting 'always use' from including the test for ID.

My basic argument is not that your interpretation is wrong, but that the RAW of the rules involved are ambiguous and lend themselves to multiple interpretations. The Draft FAQ settles the multiple interpretation issue and gives us an official ruling.

I would only take issue with someone who claims the rules involved are clear and non-ambiguous.

**Kommissar Kel**

Step 5 and 6 are both part of shooting; but it goes from what you are doing to the unit to what you are doing to the model allocated the wound.

Step 1 is choosing your unit.

Step 2 is choosing that unit's target.

Step 3 is selecting a weapon from your unit to fire at the target.

Step 4 is rolling to see if your unit hit the target unit.

Step 5 you roll the strength of your chosen weapons shots that hit vs the target unit's toughness, multiple toughness values' rules come into play here and shooting at artillery modifies that rule.

Step 6 switches to the individual models in the target unit, allocating those wounds caused to the closest model which then needs to take any applicable saves(cover is also per model), if the model fails its save that is when we check to see if ID from 2xT S applies to the model suffering the unsaved wound; this is a direct comparison of the model wounded, not the toughness rolled against(from the unit).

**col_impact**

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Step 6 switches to the individual models in the target unit, allocating those wounds caused to the closest model which then needs to take any applicable saves(cover is also per model), if the model fails its save that is when we check to see if ID from 2xT S applies to the model suffering the unsaved wound; this is a direct comparison of the model wounded, not the toughness rolled against(from the unit).

Something is still askew here. Your line of reasoning would suggest that unit modifiers like Enfeeble don't trickle down to modify the Toughness of the model for the purpose of determining ID. Enfeeble doesn't mention models at all after all.

Like Enfeeble which affects the unit, the shooting at artillery rule tells us to 'always use the Toughness of the guns'. If the unit is affected by the rule then like Enfeeble the models of the unit are as well.

The argument is going to boil ultimately down to whether 'always use' is a modifier. The rules are unclear about whether that is the case or not. Hence the ambiguity and multiple interpretations.

**Kommissar Kel**

I addressed this earlier; "always use" isn't a modifier to a Characteristic, much like Snap Shots "Fires at BS1".

It is a modifier to the Multiple Toughness Values rule, which would normally lower the toughness of the guns making that value worthless.

The only Artillery unit that I can think of off the top of my head that would naturally use the Toughness of the guns for to-wound rolls is the Thunderfire cannon; which is always 1 crew per gun before casualties(and as soon as a gun is lost reverts to the lower toughness of the crew without the Shooting at Artillery rules).

Enfeeble applies a characteristic modifier to the unit, this means all models in the unit receive the characteristic modifier.

Use, Make, fire at, etc are not modifiers.

-/+# penalty/bonus to for units or models is a modifier, as is The model/unit Gains/reduces Characteristic(/Characteristic to) # or Model/Unit becomes Characteristic #.

**col_impact**

Kommissar Kel wrote:
I addressed this earlier; "always use" isn't a modifier to a Characteristic.

Do you have a listing in the BRB for which phrasings or choices of words are officially recognized as 'setting a value'?

**Kommissar Kel**

No.

We have a language for that.

We have a special rule in rolling to wound that also has the "use" verbiage. That special rule would also be in conflict with the shooting at artillery rule if the shooting at artillery rule is not specifically modifying that rule(at which point the player who is shooting at the artillery gets to decide which takes precedence; so your artillery is now getting wounded at majority toughness).