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Hi people. So, these last days I was looking back at my old copies of several codex, rulebooks, etc., and a small thought occured to me : what if the Imperium was in fact multicultural ?

Don't get me wrong, I do understand that there is a strong, core, cultural pillar in the Imperium (which is the Imperial creed), but still, when you look at the different factions that compose the Imperium, you can't help but notice how many of them are different from each other.

For example, look at the Vostroyans, the Tarlarns and the Catachans. All are Imperial, yet each has it's own traditions and way of life and views about the galaxy.

Another more bleeding obvious example are the Adeptus Astartes chapters, even those that are Codex Astartes followers.

Could it be that for all its military/ dictatorial looks, the Imperium is in fact multicultural and open to pluralism (regarding human factions, of course) ?

In the end, Imperium is just a supraplanetary union, like UN or EU (but with standing army), and individual planets and systems have free reign in organizing themselves as long as they pay appropiate tithes and stick to the guidelines. Imperium is quite liberal when you start to think about it.

Is it more multicultural than we thought ?

Hard to awnser I don't know multicultural the collective mind of dakka expects the IoM to be.

But is the Imperium more multicultural than you expected them to be, defiantly.The cultural variation in the miniatures doesnt even come close to the cultural variation in the fluff. The IoM is big really big ans most parts of it are socially relatively isolated from the rest.This alone should have given rise to a huge variation of cultures due to the basic laws of evolution and the fluff writes love to go crazy with this idea.

I have never considered the Imperium to be monocultured, so... no? I mean, certain things like certain core tenets of the Imperial Creed, the practices of the Administratum and the Mechanicum, stuff like that, is going to be the same anywhere you go, but every planet is otherwise going to be fairly unique, and the people that live on those planets are going to speak their own dialect of Gothic, be physically and psychologically shaped by the environment of their planet, and have different cultural norms, mores, practices and beliefs.

The Imperium is actually quite permissive when it comes to a lot of things. Pay your tithe, worship the Emperor in some form - and they're honestly very lenient about the way you do it, so long as in the end you're paying homage to the Emperor - hand over your psykers, don't deal with aliens (with a list of exceptions if you're rich or powerful enough), and mutants are bad, mmkay (again, with a list of exceptions, and you don't HAVE to kill them if you keep them oppressed enough) and the rest doesn't matter. The Imperium as a whole doesn't care about your gender, your language, your race, or anything else like that. When it comes right down to it, you're human, and that's what matters.

The Imperium is comprised of a million worlds, many of which don't even share the same language.

So it obviously isn't monocultural.

The Imperium is extremely multicultural, but that does not change anything about it being a militaristic dictatorship. The Soviet Union was also very multicultural, yet also a militaristic dictatorship.

It is really fun, because it means you can just invent your own planetary civilisation if you like writing fluff.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Imperium is extremely multicultural, but that does not change anything about it being a militaristic dictatorship. The Soviet Union was also very multicultural, yet also a militaristic dictatorship.

It is really fun, because it means you can just invent your own planetary civilisation if you like writing fluff.

which was why GW set it up that way

Long as you follow basic laws, pay tithes, and don,t ba heratic

Impirium does not care if you have gay weddings, black, white, mega tyrant or a paradise garden utopia.
Long as the basic rules followed. They are happy.

Each planet can do as it likes as tmregard to local laws, and even to some degree how they venerate the emperor, just asking as they do so.

Ie space wolves use name allfather, others may have different names or customs, but again as long as all is "right" your good

I'd say that it's the most multicultural empire of the galaxy: the differences and the distances between the planets basically made it impossible to unit every culture in an only, unique one, even though they're partially achieving it. So, i'd say yes, the imperium does be a pulticultural empire despit of all.

The Imperium is surprisingly permissive and open-minded. It has to be. Trying to impose a monoculture on a galaxy-spanning empire of a million worlds would be an impossible task.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Imperium is extremely multicultural, but that does not change anything about it being a militaristic dictatorship. The Soviet Union was also very multicultural, yet also a militaristic dictatorship.

Less of a dictatorship and more of a feudal oligarchy. The High Lords are a council of peers from a variety of different and sometimes contradictory organizations. When Goge Vandire tried to set up an actual dictatorship everyone else in the Imperium took that rather poorly and there where reforms after it to prevent it.

I suppose one could consider the Emperor to be an absolute ruler, but he is effectively a de factor figurehead after the Heresy.

Multicultural...of human cultures sure, but its intolerant of thousands of other cultures.

Calling that the height of multiculturalism would be like having a Nazi Regime which tolerated numerous differing Germanic traditions but eradicated all other life and then calling themselves 'multicultural'. It would be a technically correct assessment but, given the context of the environment, would also be an outright deception since its criteria for 'culture' have been created to exclude anything not already included within it. In other words its already rigged its own answer in its own favor.

Not to mention for all this vaunted openness I can hardly think of ten transsexual, homosexual or gender-fluid individuals, not to mention Cryptus System has nobles using 'pleasure servitors' meaning that slavery, both labour and sexual, are still permissible. Not to mention the Imperium is rife with enormous class discrimination, most likely the prevalent form of intra-Imperium discrimination, with lower classes and the poor being maltreated, abused and killed en masse quite regularly, and the existence of numerous completely un-meritocratic aristocracies.

There's also the fact that certain institutions, such as the Schola Progenium in the latest fluff, have distinctly gendered separations of potential employment.

If you draw the lines for what multicultural means to be; "What the Imperium already has" then of course the answer you'll receive is yes.

In reality the Imperium is only a human multicultural society which does not permit any ideology or religion not sanctioned by the state.

Also calling the Imperium liberal is just...a gross abuse of comparison. Like calling a mass murderer 'noble' because he killed less people than some other person.

 Anemone wrote:
Multicultural...of human cultures sure, but its intolerant of thousands of other cultures.

Calling that the height of multiculturalism would be like having a Nazi Regime which tolerated numerous differing Germanic traditions but eradicated all other life and then calling themselves 'multicultural'. It would be a technically correct assessment but, given the context of the environment, would also be an outright deception since its criteria for 'culture' have been created to exclude anything not already included within it. In other words its already rigged its own answer in its own favor.

Not to mention for all this vaunted openness I can hardly think of ten transsexual, homosexual or gender-fluid individuals, not to mention Cryptus System has nobles using 'pleasure servitors' meaning that slavery, both labour and sexual, are still permissible. Not to mention the Imperium is rife with enormous class discrimination, most likely the prevalent form of intra-Imperium discrimination, with lower classes and the poor being maltreated, abused and killed en masse quite regularly, and the existence of numerous completely un-meritocratic aristocracies.

There's also the fact that certain institutions, such as the Schola Progenium in the latest fluff, have distinctly gendered separations of potential employment.

If you draw the lines for what multicultural means to be; "What the Imperium already has" then of course the answer you'll receive is yes.

In reality the Imperium is only a human multicultural society which does not permit any ideology or religion not sanctioned by the state.

Also calling the Imperium liberal is just...a gross abuse of comparison. Like calling a mass murderer 'noble' because he killed less people than some other person.

Being multicultural means accepting and tolerating several different cultures within a state (as opposed to monocultural nation-states). It means nothing more than that. So yes, a Nazi empire including numerous different Germanic cultures (like German, Dutch, Swedish etc.) would be multicultural even if it is extremely intolerant towards non-Germanic cultures. Being multicultural means including and being tolerant towards more than one culture. It does not neccessarily mean being tolerant towards all cultures.
Slavery, class and gender issues are completely unrelated issues, which you seem to be mixing up.

Also, since culture is a human concept, it is debatable whether it is possible for aliens to have culture. And if one concludes that they do, it is debatable whether that would constitute cultural racism for forcing human concepts on non-human species.

@Iron_Captain: There are a lot of problems with the rational argumentation of the above post so I'm going to attempt to deal with them step-by-step;

Being multicultural means accepting and tolerating several different cultures within a state (as opposed to monocultural nation-states). It means nothing more than that. So yes, a Nazi empire including numerous different Germanic cultures (like German, Dutch, Swedish etc.)

It actually means a lot more than that since it is a nebulous highly contentious term with no agreed upon universal definition, policies with greatly differing goals and can range from promoting interculturalism to promoting cultural diversity or amalgamating cultural traditions together. The most consistent features of multiculturalism is that it tends to, in political discourse, focus on conceptions of ethnic or aboriginal cultural values, and their place within a legal state, or exist as a opposition to concepts of cultural subjugation or assimilation.

Calling a concept like multiculturalism 'simple' is a disservice to the voluminous works and discussion ongoing today concerning the topic. Very, very few intellectuals would define a state which practises a form of limited diversity within its sanction a 'multicultural state'.

The other problem with this definition of multiculturalism, as you are advancing it, is that by this definition only the absolute most stringent of regimes (no regime in human history indeed) would disqualify for it.

In other words, using this definition you are applying for multiculturalism, every faction in the Warhammer 40k game which is playable are multicultural since they, within themselves, contain internal differing cultural traditions. Indeed groups such as the Craftworld Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks and Chaos Cultists (certain ones) are even more multicultural since they can possess internal cultures of differing traditions which do not require state sanction, a vital component for defining any multicultural state in legal terms.

Being multicultural means including and being tolerant towards more than one culture. It does not neccessarily mean being tolerant towards all cultures.

Again a definition of multicultural so wide as to render the term pointless. If tolerance to a single culture group automatically qualifies then the word has no meaning since, conceivably, all regimes are tolerant to at least one culture (themselves). Indeed even Tyranid are tolerant of their own culture.

Slavery, class and gender issues are completely unrelated issues, which you seem to be mixing up.

No they're connected to numerous points made in posts above in which individuals discussed the 'openness' and 'liberal' nature of the Imperium. Completely correlated to those points as a way of demonstrating them as deceptions.

Also, since culture is a human concept, it is debatable whether it is possible for aliens to have culture. And if one concludes that they do, it is debatable whether that would constitute cultural racism for forcing human concepts on non-human species.

Firstly; never go to any philosophical, anthropological or sociological gathering ever and open by saying 'culture is intrinsically human' since that has been a non-issue since the decision that rationality, or the ability to possess it, is key to human difference from other life forms encountered so far. Just starting with Immanuel Kant, a luminary of philosophy, so long as an entity, human or not, could possess any rational faculties akin to ours (or even exceeding ours since we do not know) they could just as easily as us have culture.

This last point is very weak under any form of rational scrutiny since you're working from an assumption no serious intellectual would have; 'culture is only applicable to humans' as opposed to the more logical assumption of; 'culture is applicable to rational agents, as of yet in real life we know of no rational agents other than humans but if we were to meet other rational agents then they are just as capable of possessing culture as us,'.

EDIT: This last point, indeed, is actually rather frightening since there is a precedent for this line of thinking; when settlers arrived to new lands the world over they would often bring with them an assumption that if they met different people that then, these people, were 'different' and thus the same 'rules' need not apply. Fortunately that has long ago been exposed to have no form of rational basis at all and relies completely on unfounded assumptions.

Still a pity all the endless death, slavery and despair it lead to can never be undone just because it can be demonstrated to be groundless, and its not like demonstrating something to be groundless has ever stopped people from it before. Just ask Manifest Destiny.

In the realm of 40k, none of that matters. As far as the Imperium is concerned, Mankind is the *only* culture/species that matters. Everything else is a Xeno Abomination that exists only to be purged.

In 40k, Mankind was once enslaved by Xenos Empires. Then, the Great Crusade happened and Ended those Xenos. Going forward, Mankind has learned to fear and hate the Xenos, and thus purges them when they are found and as they are able to. Thus, newly-seized worlds populated by Xenos cultures are eradicated to make way for the Imperium.

@Psiensis: No, in the realm of 40k none of that matters to you. Whether or not it matters for other individuals is literally beyond the scope of your abilities to determine. Also what the Imperium is 'concerned with' has no bearing on what is or what is moral, all states are 'concerned with' something, that doesn't make it right in anyway at all, it simply reflects their beliefs.

As for that other comment, irrelevant to a discussion concerning multiculturalism as it is, here's how it runs;

In reality thousands of different societies/civilizations/polities/cultures/ethnic groups have been enslaved by thousands of other societies/civilizations/polities/cultures/ethnic groups. Fortunately no-one in reality was ever so psychotic and mindlessly evil to use this as a justification for the eradication of any non-desirable group they ever encountered.

If we were to use the logic you are espousing then every human civilization in history would be determined to destroy every single other human civilization in history because all human polities, in the ebb and flow of history, are conquered/dominated/ravaged by other societies, and if this occurring once is justification sufficient to, from that point onward, follow a policy of eradication of all other societies/civilizations/polities/ethnic groups/cultures then it would be necessary for every human nation to be dedicated to the annihilation of all other human nations.

Fortunately in reality no-one is as mindlessly evil, and irrationally incapable of justifying their claims, as that.

I find it bit disingenuous to criticize the Imperium as being deceptive due to not tolerating Xenos culture. That's not really the point of the OP, nor would any sane man try to accommodate the culture of the Orks or Dark Eldar or Chaos. I don't think any of the posters here expect the Imperium to embrace Chaos culture or Ork culture.

Nobody is claiming that the Imperium is this liberal utopia, but it is more liberal than than one would think at first glance. It has to be, due to the staggering size and distance of a galaxy-spanning empire. It would be impossible to assert any form of monoculture into said empire. The High Lords don't really care about the individual cultures or societies of each planet as long as they:

1. Pay tithes.
2. Don't worship Chaos
3. Don't consort Chaos.

The Imperium could care less if the individual planet is a liberal democracy or a oppressive monarchy or whatever. Just as long as they maintain their basic duties to the Imperium.

 Anemone wrote:

Not to mention for all this vaunted openness I can hardly think of ten transsexual, homosexual or gender-fluid individuals,

That probably has more to due with the authors writing said background lore probably have no interest in writing it up in a sci-fi wargaming series. Especially since those subjects are often controversial in real life.

There is certainly nothing to suggest in-universe the Imperium as a whole has any sort of Anti-LGBT policies. Some planets might do, while others might not.

 Anemone wrote:

not to mention Cryptus System has nobles using 'pleasure servitors' meaning that slavery, both labour and sexual, are still permissible. Not to mention the Imperium is rife with enormous class discrimination, most likely the prevalent form of intra-Imperium discrimination, with lower classes and the poor being maltreated, abused and killed en masse quite regularly, and the existence of numerous completely un-meritocratic aristocracies.

Some planets do that. Others don't, like Tanith or Perlia. Some planets have cultures we would find reprehensible. Others we would find quite familiar and pleasant. others we might find primitive or bizarre.

I don't think anyone here is claiming that the Imperium is a shining beacon of social justice and equality for all, just that it is surprisingly permissive and open than one might think at first glance. Which is true. The Imperium is filled with immense variety and cultures.

You have the tattooed woodlanders of Tanith with hints of animistic gods existing alongside more formalized worship.

You have the Plain's World, which are essentially Native Americans in Space.

You have the crowed filthy hives of Necromunda.

You have the mundane and placid farming backwater of Jumael

You have the pious desert world of Tallarn, etc, etc.

That is essentially the point of the OP. On one world you might have primitive tribesmen who worship the Emperor as a sun totem. On another world you might have the planetary governor holding the planet in an oppressive dictatorship. On another planet you might find an prosperous democracy that only knows Terra as a distant authority thousands of lightyears away. On another world you might find a hive world ruled by a series of worker's councils. On another world you might find a matriarchal world who worships a local saint almost as much as they worship the Emperor...

I could go on, but I think I made my point. If you wish to view the Imperium like that, then I suppose that's your prerogative, but I rather find it to be quite narrow-minded.

@Gree:

I find it bit disingenuous to criticize the Imperium as being deceptive due to not tolerating Xenos culture.

Based on what rational argumentation? The Imperium is intolerant to alien cultures, fact, meaning that any claim of 'vaunted' multiculturalism of the Imperium ignores their absolute intolerance of any alien culture. That's a fact. You might not like it, but it is true.

If you wish to avoid the issue then be more specific; 'Human multiculturalism' referring specifically only to human cultures.

I don't think any of the posters here expect the Imperium to embrace Chaos culture or Ork culture.

Agreed, hence why they're largely irrelevant to this discussion

monoculture

Having plural cultures does not automatically make a state a 'liberal' state. The Imperium is definitively not liberal. It lacks virtually any basic aspects of a liberal society; from freedom of religion, ideology, free-thinking, lack of slavery. I must say I find the Imperium's attitude to sexual slavery particularly repugnant. So much for 'human dignity' when women can be bought, sold and used as chattel for the sexual pleasure of aristocrats.

The High Lords don't really care about the individual cultures or societies of each planet as long as they:

1. Pay tithes.
2. Don't worship Chaos
3. Don't consort Chaos.

They must also worship the Emperor in a way acceptable to the Imperium, practice no ideology not permitted by the Imperium (such as workers striking for higher pay who get gunned down), must not interact with any aliens, trade with aliens or not kill aliens.

There is far more to it than that.

Just as long as they maintain their basic duties to the Imperium.

Of course since said 'basic duty' means stamping out religious or ideological freedom, supporting only state sanctioned faiths and thought patterns, conscription and having to embrace total xenocide as a policy there's actually quite a bit to said 'basic duties'.

That probably has more to due with the authors writing said background lore probably have no interest in writing it up in a sci-fi wargaming series. Especially since those subjects are often controversial in real life.

This does not change the point. The lack of something in a story doesn't excuse it. If there Imperium is so tolerant and advanced in its treatment of these individuals and groups then I ask you to demonstrate to me in the canonical fluff where they are. If you cannot then it seriously calls into question your claims, after all if transsexual or gender-fluid individuals have such an easy time in the Imperium, why do they seemingly never enter into the higher ranks in any larger numbers?

There is certainly nothing to suggest in-universe the Imperium as a whole has any sort of Anti-LGBT policies. Some planets might do, while others might not.

This is again an argument that it might be happening 'off-screen' open to the same problems. It does not matter what things 'might be' like, what matters is what the canon presents.

Again, if the Imperium is so liberal towards these groups, demonstrate it to me using extensive textual evidence please.

I don't think anyone here is claiming that the Imperium is a shining beacon of social justice and equality for all

You'd be surprised...

just that it is surprisingly permissive and open than one might think at first glance

Not really, it has exactly the degree of plurality I'd expect from a repulsive, inhumane, genocidal regime which has to compromise due to its lack of resources at times.

 Anemone wrote:

Based on what rational argumentation? The Imperium is intolerant to alien cultures, fact, meaning that any claim of 'vaunted' multiculturalism of the Imperium ignores their absolute intolerance of any alien culture. That's a fact. You might not like it, but it is true.

Because, as stated in the OP, it's about multi- culturalism in a human context. Nobody else here was positing otherwise and I find it to be unnecessary nitpicking that rather misses the point of the thread.

Also, I wasn't making an argument. I was just stating my opinion on things. If people wish to disagree with me that that is their right as a fan of 40k. It matters little to me.

 Anemone wrote:

Having plural cultures does not automatically make a state a 'liberal' state. The Imperium is definitively not liberal. It lacks virtually any basic aspects of a liberal society; from freedom of religion, ideology, free-thinking, lack of slavery.

Liberal in the sense it's willing to accommodate other cultures. Some are bad to us, some are good to us.

 Anemone wrote:
I must say I find the Imperium's attitude to sexual slavery particularly repugnant. So much for 'human dignity' when women can be bought, sold and used as chattel for the sexual pleasure of aristocrats.

Certainly some planets do. Others don't. The Imperium (if it notices the affairs of a single planet) probably does not care either way.

 Anemone wrote:

They must also worship the Emperor in a way acceptable to the Imperium,

A distinction so broad to be almost meaningless. It's noted in the fluff that the Imperial religion had countless different variations and offshoots. The Ecclesiarchy tries to often subtle interpret local religions and faiths to be some form of Emperor worship. (Because direct conversion is often impractical on a galactic scale. Really, both Black Library and Fantasy Flight Games offer a very interesting look into the Imperial religions.

Really, most major religions on modern day earth could be construed or interpreted as some form of Emperor worship.

 Anemone wrote:
practice no ideology not permitted by the Imperium (such as workers striking for higher pay who get gunned down), s.

Some planets would certainly be like that. Others might treat that very different, or acquiescence. Planetary government differs between each planet for example.

I'm not sure the Imperium has any wide galactic policy on pay rates for workers, especially going across different planets, populations, cultures and local forms of currency that would all apply. Such a thing would be impossible to enforce.

 Anemone wrote:
must not interact with any aliens, trade with aliens or not kill aliens.

Ah, yes, my apologies. My third point should be ''don't consort with xenos'' rather than Chaos (as I had already pointed that out in my second point)

And considering the general temperments of xenos in this setting, an entirely sensible policy.

 Anemone wrote:

Of course since said 'basic duty' means stamping out religious or ideological freedom,

As I said, that can be quite broad.

Different planets have different Imperial cults and different ideologies. We see this don't we in the various supplementary material in Black Library or in FFG roleplay games, on the different cultures and governments that each world has.

I mean, even in individual organizations we have ideological variation. Questioning authority in the Space Wolves and Raptors is treated differently than it would be in the Novemarines or Ultramarines. Fellow Astartes probably have more in common with each other than a Valhallan and a Elysian.

 Anemone wrote:

, supporting only state sanctioned faiths and thought patterns,

Again, both so broad as to be meaningless, and impossible given the size of the galaxy.

I mean, we already see this in the supplementary material. The Tallarn have a different attitude towards Emperor worship than the Valhallans do. The Vostroyans have a local saint cult that is exclusive to them. The Tanith had their own animistic beliefs existing alongside their own brand of Emperor worship. The people of the Endymion cluster worship the Astartes in a primitive way. etc, etc, etc.

 Anemone wrote:

This does not change the point. The lack of something in a story doesn't excuse it. If there Imperium is so tolerant and advanced in its treatment of these individuals and groups then I ask you to demonstrate to me in the canonical fluff where they are.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I think it's fairly obvious why said Black Library writers or Codex writers don't think that LGBT issues are particularly relevant in a wargaming series.

The Imperium being tolerate or advanced on those groups is also meaningless. (Although it's less ''tolerance'' and more ''apathetic''. After all, why should a galactic empire care about the sexual orientations of it's citizens?) That would more likely be dealt with the on the individual planet's level. It's rather hard to think that the High Lords care very much about an individual's sexual orientation when they have to rule a galactic empire.

But to answer your question, I believe an implied lesbian couple shows up in the Cain series as part of the 597th. Neither Cain or Kasteen make much comment on it either way.

 Anemone wrote:

If you cannot then it seriously calls into question your claims, after all if transsexual or gender-fluid individuals have such an easy time in the Imperium, why do they seemingly never enter into the higher ranks in any larger numbers?

I wasn't really making any claims, just pushing forth my opinion and interpretation of the setting, as well as trying to offer a helpful explanation. I do think you are making a mountain out of a molehill here. After all, we are discussing what amounts to background lore for plastic toy soldiers.

If you disagree with me, that's fine. This is the internet after all. Such things are commonplace.

There probably are such individuals in the Imperium, we just don't see them due to the written material covering an infinitesimally tiny portion of the ten thousand year history of a galactic empire. (Although I suppose one could interpret most high-ranking Magos of the Mechanicus as being gender-fluid, many being essentially brains in a metal body who would barely qualify as human, let alone as a man or a woman)

 Anemone wrote:

This is again an argument that it might be happening 'off-screen' open to the same problems. It does not matter what things 'might be' like, what matters is what the canon presents.

Well the canon doesn't really present it either way does it? There is no pieces of fluff stating that LGBT individuals are persecuted.

Well I suppose you can put forth supposition, but that's it, just supposition.

I mean, can you offer evidence? Like actually hard evidence and quotes? Not supposition based on the absence of something. Evidence of a galactic wide policy? Otherwise it's just supposition.

 Anemone wrote:

Again, if the Imperium is so liberal towards these groups, demonstrate it to me using extensive textual evidence please.

Less liberal and more ''apathetic on a grand scale".

And absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

@Gree:

Because, as stated in the OP, it's about multi- culturalism in a human context. Nobody else here was positing otherwise and I find it to be unnecessary nitpicking that rather misses the point of the thread.

Also, I wasn't making an argument. I was just stating my opinion on things. If people wish to disagree with me that that is their right as a fan of 40k. It matters little to me.

But I believe it to be exactly important not to draw our categories in such a way as to affirm our own answers in a matter such as this, its important not to keep reducing what is necessary to define oneself as 'liberal' or 'multicultural' until it is so infinitesimal that it suits one's own needs. Anyone can fit any definition if one constantly refines the definition to suit the needs of the answer, however on a matter pertaining to the plurality of a polity such a method is deceptive, it is again akin to a Nazi group defining itself as open, pluralistic and liberal simply for tolerating differing Germanic tendencies, but annihilating all other.

Certainly some planets do. Others don't. The Imperium (if it notices the affairs of a single planet) probably does not care either way.

Precisely, as I said, the Imperium's attitude is repugnant, it tolerates and permits galactic sexual slavery (and regular slavery) of billions of innocent men and women. Billions of women are forced against their will to serve as objects for the amusement of Imperial Aristocrats, raped, and the system tolerates and permits this. That's the policy of the Imperial government.

As I said; repugnant.

A distinction so broad to be almost meaningless. It's noted in the fluff that the Imperial religion had countless different variations and offshoots. The Ecclesiarchy tries to often subtle interpret local religions and faiths to be some form of Emperor worship. (Because direct conversion is often impractical on a galactic scale. Really, both Black Library and Fantasy Flight Games offer a very interesting look into the Imperial religions.

Really, most major religions on modern day earth could be construed or interpreted as some form of Emperor worship.

It is not at all so broad to be meaningless; since countless planets are scoured of life in the setting for professing different faiths, not to mention what of agnostics and atheists? Or do they simply not count for this 'liberal system'? How can a system be open and pluralistic if it does not permit even something as simple as professing belief in a different faith to the one the state sanctions or professing no belief in any faith?

Some planets would certainly be like that. Others might treat that very different, or acquiescence. Planetary government differs between each planet for example.

I'm not sure the Imperium has any wide galactic policy on pay rates for workers, especially going across different planets, populations, cultures and local forms of currency that would all apply. Such a thing would be impossible to enforce.

Irrelevant; the fact remains that the Imperial government both permits and tolerates many hundreds of worlds which employ slave labour and allow nothing akin to unions or rights for their workers. There are several planets in fluff, many I can describe, which employ such methods, I have to be honest I cannot think of a single Imperial Planet I've read about described as a democracy with freedom of religion, thought and which permits worker's rights, unionization or anything approaching a comprehensive and impartial justice system.

Please give me an example of one of these worlds.

Again, both so broad as to be meaningless, and impossible given the size of the galaxy.

I mean, we already see this in the supplementary material. The Tallarn have a different attitude towards Emperor worship than the Valhallans do. The Vostroyans have a local saint cult that is exclusive to them. The Tanith had their own animistic beliefs existing alongside their own brand of Emperor worship. The people of the Endymion cluster worship the Astartes in a primitive way. etc, etc, etc.

They have differing outlooks on how you worship the Emperor, none of this changes that they all must worship the Emperor, they cannot choose to worship the Flying Spaghetti monster (expressly define him as a separate entity from the Emperor) nor can they express a desire or belief in no deity, nor can they choose to be agnostic and claim uncertainty, they must worship the Emperor.

Honestly I don't see how you're arguing for religious and ideological freedom in the Imperium, it's explicitly an organization with a broad state sanctioned religion and ideology which is intolerant of any subversion of these state sanctioned aspects.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I think it's fairly obvious why said Black Library writers or Codex writers don't think that LGBT issues are particularly relevant in a wargaming series.

It doesn't matter 'why' they don't write it, it still remains that because they do not write it, it does not exist. If you want me to believe that the Imperium is an enormously progressive state with wonderful egalitarian treatment of LGBT then give me examples thereof. Otherwise the only evidence we can go on is how no-one of the LGBT groups seem to exist in their universe...a problem normally condemned by LGBT groups is exactly the lack of representation of individuals from said group within stories. After all no-one in thousands of stories is LGBT or expressly comments on LGBT groups, does this now automatically mean all those stories are progressive in their treatment of people from LGBT groups simply because they don't specifically condemn them? Is that your bar for 'progressive'?

Furthermore the argument that because none of this is expressly contradicted it means it cannot be criticized or doubted seems untenable to me, after all by this logic I could declare canon that Sapient Cheese Wheels rule the galaxy from the shadows since no-one ever expressly denies this fact.

I wasn't really making any claims, just pushing forth my opinion and interpretation of the setting, as well as trying to offer a helpful explanation. I do think you are making a mountain out of a molehill here. After all, we are discussing what amounts to background lore for plastic toy soldiers.

When the backstory of the setting involves real people expressing real admiration and desire to emulate child murderers, rapists and institutional slavery I do feel its important. I love playing 40k, I like the fluff, I play Sisters, but I never believe that what my in-story army does is 'right', 'liberal' or 'moral'.

But to answer your question, I believe an implied lesbian couple shows up in the Cain series as part of the 597th. Neither Cain or Kasteen make much comment on it either way.

Your only example is an implication of a lesbian couple among minor characters in a single Black Library novel? I doubt any person of LGBT would feel the Imperium has any representative aspect of their orientation, a pity since apparently its meant to be completely egalitarian in this regard, makes me wonder why more such individuals don't emerge among the High Lords or Imperial Guard Commanders if the society is so egalitarian.

 Anemone wrote:
Your only example is an implication of a lesbian couple among minor characters in a single Black Library novel? I doubt any person of LGBT would feel the Imperium has any representative aspect of their orientation, a pity since apparently its meant to be completely egalitarian in this regard, makes me wonder why more such individuals don't emerge among the High Lords or Imperial Guard Commanders if the society is so egalitarian.

On the other hand you don't really get much mention of heterosexual activities either. 40K is Grimdark Eternal War, not happy-go-lucky sexual encounters with enchanting representatives of whatever inclination someone would find plesant to meet. For the most part your sexual orientation is irrelevant to the IoM. Unless your planet has a severe drop in birth rates (making it harder to tithe IG regiments) no one is going to care about whether Munitorium Serf Bob fancies Serf Alice or Charlie.

 Anemone wrote:
@Gree:

But I believe it to be exactly important not to draw our categories in such a way as to affirm our own answers in a matter such as this, its important not to keep reducing what is necessary to define oneself as 'liberal' or 'multicultural' until it is so infinitesimal that it suits one's own needs. Anyone can fit any definition if one constantly refines the definition to suit the needs of the answer, however on a matter pertaining to the plurality of a polity such a method is deceptive, it is again akin to a Nazi group defining itself as open, pluralistic and liberal simply for tolerating differing Germanic tendencies, but annihilating all other.

If you want then take that stance, then that's your right.

I think it's a semantics and missing the point here.

 Anemone wrote:

Precisely, as I said, the Imperium's attitude is repugnant, it tolerates and permits galactic sexual slavery (and regular slavery) of billions of innocent men and women. Billions of women are forced against their will to serve as objects for the amusement of Imperial Aristocrats, raped, and the system tolerates and permits this. That's the policy of the Imperial government.

Well the attitude of the Cryptus system is certainly like that.. That's repugnant, but probably not of concern to the Imperium if they even notice at all. Other planets very likely would have different policies.

Tanith or Perlia probably doesn't have that.

 Anemone wrote:

It is not at all so broad to be meaningless; since countless planets are scoured of life in the setting for professing different faiths, not to mention what of agnostics and atheists?.

Can you provide example of planets scoured of life? Preferably with in-depth details and examples? After all, we have plenty of examples in the lore of the Imperial cult being rather lax in it's specific tenants.

I mean yeah, nobody is denying that outright denying the Emperor is probably not a good idea, but within that context the Imperium is remarkably permissive to the point where one could essentially worship almost anything as long as they added some lip service to the Emperor. It's semantic really.

 Anemone wrote:
Or do they simply not count for this 'liberal system'? How can a system be open and pluralistic if it does not permit even something as simple as professing belief in a different faith to the one the state sanctions or professing no belief in any faith?

You can be open and pluralistic to different degrees. You are assuming black and white extremes. The Imperium is not completely far right nor completely far left. It's a patchwork of things that often require compromise.

 Anemone wrote:

Irrelevant; the fact remains that the Imperial government both permits and tolerates many hundreds of worlds which employ slave labour and allow nothing akin to unions or rights for their workers. .

And you have many other planets which very much don't run that gauntlet. As I said, supreme apathy runs both ways.

 Anemone wrote:
I have to be honest I cannot think of a single Imperial Planet I've read about described as a democracy with freedom of religion, thought and which permits worker's rights, unionization or anything approaching a comprehensive and impartial justice system.

Please give me an example of one of these worlds.

Well, I can give you aspects of each.

(This is all purely from memory. I fI sat down and went trough my collection I could probably find more)

Pavonis apparently has a democratically elected governor.

Religion has multiple variations throughout the Imperium. That I've covered extensively.

Thought has been covered extensively. If there was no freedom of thought then the Space Wolves would have to adhere to the Codex Astartes, the Sons of Medusa would not be allowed to exist as they are, the Catachans would not be allowed to be individualistic (or any Guard regiment really) the Vostroyans would not be allowed their local practices and cults. If there was no freedeon of thought that every Astartes Chapter would be exactly identical and every one in the Imperium would be exactly identical, but that's not the case is it?

I mean, even the Inquisition has dozens of political factions.

If the Imperium truly had no freedom of thought that everything would be a single grey mass of people.

Beyond that in 40k, you very likely do have planets where everything is peaceful and democratic and fine. It's just that in most cases those planets probably aren't very exciting to write about. Thsi being a wargame and all.

 Anemone wrote:

They have differing outlooks on how you worship the Emperor, none of this changes that they all must worship the Emperor, they cannot choose to worship the Flying Spaghetti monster (expressly define him as a separate entity from the Emperor) nor can they express a desire or belief in no deity, nor can they choose to be agnostic and claim uncertainty, they must worship the Emperor.

Honestly I don't see how you're arguing for religious and ideological freedom in the Imperium, it's explicitly an organization with a broad state sanctioned religion and ideology which is intolerant of any subversion of these state sanctioned aspects.

Semantics really. The Imperium is tolerant of subversion, provided it follows a very vague and very basic tenant.

I don't think anyone is claiming that the Imperium allows complete freedom of religion. That would be nonsense in the constraints of the setting. But in that limits it's surprisingly flexible and open. One can pretty much worship anything as long as it's vaguely connected to the Emperor.

We have examples of the Emperor being worshiped as a sun totem, or merely the ultimate warrior, or an omnipotent god. Of course religion is one of the tenants of the Imperium. Nobody is claiming that the Imperium is shining beacon of liberal thought and social justice. But even in that there is a remarkable degree of flexibility. Worship to the Emperor is nothing more than a very broad and rather vague to be practically meaningless.

So in the ''Flying Spaghetti Monster" example would probably end up to be much the ''same difference'' to the local worshipers after a few generations of Ecclesiastical association. On many planets, Emperor-worship might be a polite lip service.

Of course it's not completely egalitarian or perfect, but nobody is really claiming that here. What it is, is that the Imperium is surprisingly open-minded and tolerant to an extent. Otherwise all those examples I freely provided would not exist.

(Although if you want to get into the differences of worship, most of the Astartes are technically atheists. They even have a special agreement with the Ecclisiarchy. The Mechanicus worship the Omnissiah, although what kind of relation that has to the Emperor is of much debate.)

 Anemone wrote:

It doesn't matter 'why' they don't write it, it still remains that because they do not write it, it does not exist. .

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Certainly Black Library writers have not written much on it, but that does not mean that they don't exist in the Imperium, or that they don't occupy high positions. Anything other than that is supposition.

 Anemone wrote:

If you want me to believe that the Imperium is an enormously progressive state with wonderful egalitarian treatment of LGBT then give me examples thereof.

Can you give examples otherwise? I mean, one cannot prove a negative, but I would be interesting in seeing examples of discrimination against LGBT groups in the Imperium. I mean actual evidence, not the absence of evidence.

Nobody is arguing that the Imperium is this greatly progressive state or shining ideal, just that it's remarkably so by the constraints of the setting.

 Anemone wrote:

Otherwise the only evidence we can go on is how no-one of the LGBT groups seem to exist in their universe...a problem normally condemned by LGBT groups is exactly the lack of representation of individuals from said group within stories. After all no-one in thousands of stories is LGBT or expressly comments on LGBT groups, does this now automatically mean all those stories are progressive in their treatment of people from LGBT groups simply because they don't specifically condemn them? Is that your bar for 'progressive'?

I think you are hastily jumping to conclusions here on some sort of perceived injustice.

I mean, you can criticize the Black Library authors for not including LGBT characters in their stories, but that's not the same as the Imperium's in-universe policy towards them now is it? Unless you have explicit examples otherwise?

 Anemone wrote:

Furthermore the argument that because none of this is expressly contradicted it means it cannot be criticized or doubted seems untenable to me, after all by this logic I could declare canon that Sapient Cheese Wheels rule the galaxy from the shadows since no-one ever expressly denies this fact.

Indeed, that would be your right as a poster and I would respect your opinion even if I disagree with it.

Though by that logic shouldn't it apply to you? After all, you keep on asking for examples while putting forth assertions of your own without any sort of examples behind it. Only the lack of evidence for the LGBT issue.

Can you put forth some examples of a galactic-wide anti-LGBT policy that isn't supposition from lack of evidence either way?

 Anemone wrote:

When the backstory of the setting involves real people expressing real admiration and desire to emulate child murderers, rapists and institutional slavery I do feel its important. I love playing 40k, I like the fluff, I play Sisters, but I never believe that what my in-story army does is 'right', 'liberal' or 'moral'.

If that's how you feel, then that's how you feel.

I must respectfully disagree and I think you are looking at a very complex and nuanced empire in very absolute terms. The Imperium is a patchwork of things that most often revolve on compromise and negotiation between different powers. It's not a situation of black and white morality and there is often a bunch of wiggle room. Nor do I think that the practices of one planet really reflect the rest of the Imperium or even necessarily it's central government.

For those examples in the Cryptus system you have a Tanith or a Pavonis. For every shrine world in the Imperium you have people like Cain who disdain ''Emperor-botherers'' and such.

I don't really think many people here are expressing ''admiration'' for the Imperium, rather merely remarking how it is. Which is true. The Imperium is remarkably open-minded and tolerant of things to an extent. It very much has to be, given it's extent.

Or are you perhaps denying that the Space Wolves eschew the Codex Astartes, Vostroyans worship local saints, or the planet of Acreage worships the Emperor as a Sky King? After all, those are things that certain differ from Imperial norm.

 Anemone wrote:

Your only example is an implication of a lesbian couple among minor characters in a single Black Library novel? I doubt any person of LGBT would feel the Imperium has any representative aspect of their orientation, a pity since apparently its meant to be completely egalitarian in this regard, makes me wonder why more such individuals don't emerge among the High Lords or Imperial Guard Commanders if the society is so egalitarian.

Well, so far it's more direct evidence than you've provided in this regard.

You are also putting forth a strawman. Nobody is arguing that the Imperium is completely egalitarian or a shining beacon of social justice, just that it's surprisingly flexible after first glance.

We don't even know the names of the High Lords, so who can say how many might be gay or gender-fluid? Countless billions of Guard commanders exist in the universe, but who can say how many are gay when only a few hundred at best have been detailed in the fluff?

supporting only state sanctioned faiths

Agreed. The one thing which can be said for them is that the ecclesiarchy seems to be a bit analogous to dark-ages christianity and/or the Roman state religion; it tends to go in and try to over-write the existing faith and plagiarize the best bits rather than trying to smash it down and re-build.

Which is why you get the Emperor revered as Sky-Father, a spirit in the sun, first amongst ancestor spirits, a straight-out-of-catholicism god, and umpty-ump other variations.

That's not the same as 'freedom of religion' - Certainly agnostic or atheist, however, is not acceptable, and the Imperium has non-trivial formal (Sororitas) and informal (Redemtionists, Frateris Militia, Confessors) forces who will take issue with anyone seen as diverging unacceptably from the party line.

Exactly what the line between "acceptable variation" and "unacceptable variation" in doctrine is the sort of thing agreed by Ministorum hierarchs, and - this being the Imperium - probably changes with no notice when a new Cardinal-Astral is installed, and throne help anyone now on the wrong side of the line.

That's the policy of the Imperial government.

At the risk of making light of a horrible subject, I'll quote Yes Minister.
"Government Policy? Do not suggest that for a moment! The idea is unthinkable! That could never be Government Policy. Only Government Practice."

The Imperium does not advocate slavery. But nor does it in any way lift a finger to prevent it. As long as you are not in violation of 'Lex Imperialis' - the Imperium's federal level law - the Imperium as an organisation doesn't care how corrupt, brutal, or kinky you are. It judges you soley on your competence, and its only real measure for competence is that you meet your tithes and external duties (Administratum, Militarum, Psykana and Ecclesiarchal) and your world is nice and stable such that the Imperium doesn't have to intervene to keep it orderly and secure.

The same is not, of course, true of individuals within it. Taking an example, the Recongregator faction of the Inquisition sees one of its main functions as eliminating imperial officials who are corrupt and abusive, and one of the stories in the Deathwatch collection Xenos Hunters is a radical inquisitor starting a planetary civil war to do just that, because the slave-holding, oppresive regime "did not deserve to survive".

At the same time, note that the recongregators are a radical faction - meaning seen by the bulk of the Inquisition as a bit wierd at best.

I have to be honest I cannot think of a single Imperial Planet I've read about described as a democracy with freedom of religion, thought and which permits worker's rights, unionization or anything approaching a comprehensive and impartial justice system.

Please give me an example of one of these worlds.

You definitely will not. There are no shortage of worlds mentioned in passing who are democratic to a greater or lesser extent (a couple of Caine novels, for example, mentioning election, and in one case re-election of planetary governors, as well as those which are inherited), but no matter how you select your planetary governor, if your proposed candidate is not acceptable to the imperium, tough.

Unionisation is not uncommon - trade guilds are mentioned in a lot of novels and are often quite influential (take the guild city mentioned in Phalanx, which is essentially an entire minor hive city built around the headquarters of the five most influential guilds)

Workers rights.....highly variable. Again, the Imperium has no base legal minimum rights applicable to anything but its own servants (i.e. the minimum treatment/resources an administratum cleric can expect from a world he's based on). It doesn't care how much said world as to exploit the hell out of its own citizens to meet said requirements.



No, the Imperium is not a nice place to live (mostly). But my one comment is that describing 'the Imperium' is much like describing 'the Inquisition' as if it was a monolithc entity - it's a meaningless task.

So much that matters to everyday citizens is delegated to individual worlds that a world can be a living hell, a near-paradise or anything in between, and the Imperium is too busy fighting off alligators to worry about the living standards of its people.

@Spetulhu: What are you talking about? There are far more heterosexual, explicitly so, couples in 40k than homosexual couples. I'm still waiting for evidence of a single explicit homosexual couple within 40k.

Based on what are you arguing that sexual orientation is irrelevant? If this were true why do we not see any homosexual, transgendered or gender-fluid individuals among the characters presented in Warhammer fluff?

This is equivalent to me watching the Star Wars Movies and then arguing that the movies are representative of LGBT individuals simply because no-one ever explicitly mentions them at all.

I mean you do realize that a large part of what groups supporting tolerance of LGBT rights try to do is promote positive reflection (which in Warhammer's case would mean just being treated as existing) in sources? The argument you're making here is; "No-one ever treats LGBT as something that exists in the universe, hence clearly everything is fine," when in reality we use a near exact opposite argument; "This setting does not have any representation of LGBT individuals at all despite rationally having the grounds to do so, it hence can be termed as excluding LGBT individuals and discussion."

Well the attitude of the Cryptus system is certainly like that.. That's repugnant, but probably not of concern to the Imperium if they even notice at all. Other planets very likely would have different policies.

Tanith or Perlia probably doesn't have that.

That changes nothing, that's equivalent to saying; "The Nazi's killed people in Dachau but not in Berlin, hence its fine," the Imperium is the government of all those worlds, meaning the practices it permits and tolerates on those worlds are its fault. Nothing you say changes that the Imperium is a government which both permits and tolerates sexual slavery (among many other travesties) and that for all this talk of 'liberal' attitude the fact remains that the Imperium remains a government which permits the constant and repeated rape of billions of women throughout the galaxy. It does not matter that in certain districts it does not occur, that does not change what the Government permits and tolerates. It is legal in the Imperium to practice sexual slavery.

Can you provide example of planets scoured of life? Preferably with in-depth details and examples? After all, we have plenty of examples in the lore of the Imperial cult being rather lax in it's specific tenants

I don't really see why I should have to provide an example of a world destroyed for religious reasons in the Imperium, you can search that easily, since you've yet to give me the textual source for a comprehensive homosexual couple prominent in the Imperium or a world which is a democratic body which provides worker's rights and an impartial justice system. Once you address that question of mine, which I gave before you, then I will respond to this question, but I'm not simply going to turn around and provide examples simply to change the topic.

I mean yeah, nobody is denying that outright denying the Emperor is probably not a good idea, but within that context the Imperium is remarkably permissive to the point where one could essentially worship almost anything as long as they added some lip service to the Emperor. It's semantic really.

Interesting, so you believe if a non-Astarte denied the Emperor's divinity they'd be fine?

Besides nothing you said changes my point; you still have to add lip service to the Emperor, meaning you're still curtailed by the state-sanctioned religion, you still do not have freedom of religion in any form, you cannot express faith in a deity other than the Emperor and you cannot express doubt or a lack of belief in the divinity of the Emperor. Honestly since you cannot dispute this point I fail to see how you argue that the Imperium provides freedom of religion, including atheism and agnosticism, when all you're saying is that the Imperium provides the freedom to interpret one faith in different ways.

Your argument here amounts to saying; "A Christian state which requires all citizens to express faith in the Christian God but allows them to freely choose whatever denomination they want, has religious freedom," completely ignoring the fact that any citizen within this polity has no right to select a faith other than the Christian God, be an atheist or agnostic. The Imperium is not liberal.

You can be open and pluralistic to different degrees. You are assuming black and white extremes. The Imperium is not completely far right nor completely far left. It's a patchwork of things that often require compromise.

No, I'm not assuming black and white, I'm simply pointing out that the Imperium is far to totalitarian to be called liberal and that attempts to dress it up as an 'open', 'free' and 'liberal' society of compassion are deceptive.

And you have many other planets which very much don't run that gauntlet. As I said, supreme apathy runs both ways.

This changes nothing, its equivalent to a slave-owning Empire going; "But in our capital we have no slaves, so there's really no problem, we just keep them working in the mines and plantations, not in our houses," does that sound liberal or compassionate to you? Your only defense seems to be that some places aren't practicing atrocities daily and then claiming that this automatically negates the atrocities being officially permitted and performed across the Imperium constantly;

Additionally, having read the fluff of 40k, I am very hard pressed to find any examples of these paradise-like democratic, compassionate and advanced planets you keep mentioning where no form of slavery or servitude exists and politics is free and impartial. My reading seems to suggest that all planets i read about in the fluff usually practice some form of slavery, including servitors who are lobotomized slaves, never have an impartial justice system and that's without even getting into the politics. The Imperium is not liberal.

Well, I can give you aspects of each.

That's not what I asked for, give me a planet which is as perfect as you are describing, if you are so certain they exist in the Imperium, show them to me please.

Pavonis apparently has a democratically elected governor.

Wasn't it ruled by virtual-hereditary industrial cartels which treated their employees very poorly? I'll admit my memory is hazy but you yourself seem uncertain of its democratic credentials considering your use of 'apparently'.

Religion has multiple variations throughout the Imperium.

Yes, multiple variations, multiple denominations, not actually multiple different religions or respect for atheists or agnostics. This is akin to saying a state which allows many denominations of one religion, but murders all practitioners of other religions, atheists or agnostic somehow has freedom of religion. It does not make sense.

Thought has been covered extensively. If there was no freedom of thought then the Space Wolves would have to adhere to the Codex Astartes, the Sons of Medusa would not be allowed to exist as they are, the Catachans would not be allowed to be individualistic (or any Guard regiment really) the Vostroyans would not be allowed their local practices and cults. If there was no freedeon of thought that every Astartes Chapter would be exactly identical and every one in the Imperium would be exactly identical, but that's not the case is it?

I mean, even the Inquisition has dozens of political factions

Differing political thought patterns do not equate freedom of thought; or otherwise both the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were liberal intellectual societies simply because internal differences in thinking and opinion existed.

So in the ''Flying Spaghetti Monster" example would probably end up to be much the ''same difference'' to the local worshipers after a few generations of Ecclesiastical association. On many planets, Emperor-worship might be a polite lip service.

No it wouldn't; the locals desire to worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster (defined as an entity separate to the Emperor) and refuse to accept the Emperor as their deity, insist that it is the Flying Spaghetti Monster not the Emperor. They would all be killed for a failure to convert, as the Cannoness was doing on Lysios.

(Although if you want to get into the differences of worship, most of the Astartes are technically atheists. They even have a special agreement with the Ecclisiarchy. The Mechanicus worship the Omnissiah, although what kind of relation that has to the Emperor is of much debate.)

The Omnissiah does not count, officially the Mechanicus recognize the Emperor has the Omnissiah so it is again a matter of variation, denomination, not of a different religion. In fact you often seem to suggest that a different denomination is the same as a different religion.

The Astarte are a fine example, sure, but that's why I'm not discussing them.

Nobody is arguing that the Imperium is this greatly progressive state or shining ideal, just that it's remarkably so by the constraints of the setting.

Why is it remarkable by the setting? The Craftworld Eldar, Exodites, Tau, Nicassar, Kroot, Diasporex, Interex and many others don't practice sexual slavery or internal repression of differing faiths, why is it remarkable that the Imperium does these things other nations don't do?

I think you are hastily jumping to conclusions here on some sort of perceived injustice.

I mean, you can criticize the Black Library authors for not including LGBT characters in their stories, but that's not the same as the Imperium's in-universe policy towards them now is it? Unless you have explicit examples otherwise?

I'm sorry but I really have to clarify; is the argument you are making that, because LGBT characters never appear in any Warhammer story ever, that the Imperium is tolerant and accepting of LGBT individuals?

Indeed, that would be your right as a poster and I would respect your opinion even if I disagree with it.

But why would you disagree with it? You are already stating that simply because no explicit anti-LGBT discrimination is shown in the Imperium that it automatically is tolerant of them, since no explicit denial of the Consortium of Cheese Wheels is ever made how can you disagree with it under your own logic? By your logic you must now accept as canon any statement made which is not directly or explicitly denied.

I must respectfully disagree and I think you are looking at a very complex and nuanced empire in very absolute terms. The Imperium is a patchwork of things that most often revolve on compromise and negotiation between different powers. It's not a situation of black and white morality and there is often a bunch of wiggle room. Nor do I think that the practices of one planet really reflect the rest of the Imperium or even necessarily it's central government.

None of this changes that the Imperium is a government which practices and tolerates slavery, child slavery, sexual slavery, institutionalized slavery, institutionalized torture, collective punishment, corruption, a rigged justice system, a lack of political representation, worker's rights, child murder, mass murder, genocide, ethnic cleansing, repression of political and religious freedoms and far more.

We don't even know the names of the High Lords, so who can say how many might be gay or gender-fluid? Countless billions of Guard commanders exist in the universe, but who can say how many are gay when only a few hundred at best have been detailed in the fluff?

So, again, to clarify your argument is; "Since we don't see LGBT characters there's no problem since we just happen to never see them but they are all off-screen being perfectly fine," do you understand how much this exact approach is used to justify the exclusion of any LGBT characters in stories? How much this is campaigned against since it is a tool which enables an individual to treat a segment of a population as not existing in a story and then 'justifying' it? It begins to seem like your goal is simply defending the Imperium as a utopia.

Interesting fact about the High Lords is that, of the twenty-six or so we know, only three have ever been anything but male. A lack of female representation too in this egalitarian and liberal society then.

@Iocarno24: I appreciate the Yes Minister joke, always loved that show, however I'd dispute it; Is it anywhere ever said the Imperium is opposed to slavery as a concept?

Interesting, so you believe if a non-Astarte denied the Emperor's divinity they'd be fine?

They actively do so in several sources. To quote the most extreme case; Bjorn the Fell-handed talking to an Inquisitor Lord at the time:

"Calling him a God is what started this bloody mess in the first place."

Is it anywhere ever said the Imperium is opposed to slavery as a concept?

Other than the Imperium's original goal of 'liberating and uniting the scattered worlds of man' (quote describing the theoretical purpose of the great crusade in Collected Visions), no. But that's the point I was trying to make; the Imperium is not opposed to slavery. Nor does it actively encourage it. What you do within the boundaries of your authority, they don't really care about as long as nothing forces them to take notice.

'Government policy' says that the Imperium is a united polity striving for the survival of humanity. Policy says the Inquisition is a unified body with the authority of the God-Emperor himself and that no-one would ever dream of disobeying them. Policy says a lot of things.

The Administratum is a bunch of bureaucrats. They would never, every say "go and brutally enslave a world, smash the economy into the bedrock and strip-mine every resource they have, then abandon the survivors once the world is no longer of use to us".

They'll write a report on possible ways to provide resources to sustain the Achillus crusade which will result in a world's ecosphere and lithosphere being as thouroughly ravaged as if a hive fleet had pulled in for a drive-thru buffet (taking an example from the RPGs). You won't use words like 'exploit', 'oppress' or 'enslave' because you don't.

The fact that your instructions on the new tithe levels essentially forced somone else to do that on your behalf is a different issue. They did that, not you, and the Administratum will happily reach for the hammer of the Arbites, or even the Ordos, if you can't meet their properly sanctioned and entirely fair tithe levels (this kind of crud is what kicked off the Badab War).

The only other example I can give is the whole 'penal world' thing; a lot of penal worlds (or other convict-systems like the space station in Soul Drinkers) are big on supplying slave labour to the Imperium. Savlar is the one whose name springs to mind due to the guard regiments.

However, in each case, they're always criminals used for slave labour - no matter how petty the crime (and 'being born a mutant is a legally recognised crime, unethical as that may be) - the Imperium on occasion being very exacting about this.

In the sould drinkers story mentioned above, the convict labour forces shipped through the station were sent along with information of what they'd been convicted of. Some of the records were clearly utter drivel (especially when the 'criminals' were children of original convicts born on penal worlds), but the administratum didn't care if the criminal conviction was believable, just that one existed.

Which, to me, implies an official policy that only a criminal can be treated as slave labour under normal policies, but that (as with a lot of government policies) no-one gives a feth about the truth as long as the paperwork looks right on a cursory inspection.

There are exceptions even to this; the original population of armageddon was rounded up, sterilized, and put into forced labour camps to rebuild the world before it was repopulated in the wake of Angron's invasion, but that was done under the orders of the Inquisition, to whom Administratum policy and even Imperial High Law is, at best, a series of vague guidlines.

Ok, setting aside the other stuff going on here, I think the 'Imperium is not Multicultural' argument has some legs.

The trick is, 'mono-cultural'/'multicultural' are descriptions of societies, and the Imperium is not really a society (at least; in the traditional sense). It's more a geopolitical entity*, that is made up of a large number of smaller distinct societies (be they the interplanetary 'Adepta' societies, or the societies of individual worlds).

Those myriad societies though, I would argue, are almost all 'mono-cultural' and not 'multicultural'.

Consider, a typical member of a modern day 'Multicultural' society is going to experience that multiculturalism in the form of foods from different cultures, regularly seeing art or media from cultures not their own, regularly seeing/interacting with practitioners of said alternative cultures, etc. However for a typical member of most Imperial Societies, they are only ever going to be dealing with the culture of their own world (or own 'Adepta'), which is likely global (given the characterisation of most Imperial Worlds as 'Worlds of Hats'). Even the worlds with less repressive-state controlled governments are not going to be awash in the people/food/media/ideas of other worlds, due to the generally isolating nature of Imperial space travel/traffic.

So, no, the 'Imperium' is not multicultural, it may contain a huge & diverse number of cultures, but that is not the same thing.

*am I using that right?

locarno24 wrote:

No, the Imperium is not a nice place to live (mostly). But my one comment is that describing 'the Imperium' is much like describing 'the Inquisition' as if it was a monolithc entity - it's a meaningless task.

So much that matters to everyday citizens is delegated to individual worlds that a world can be a living hell, a near-paradise or anything in between, and the Imperium is too busy fighting off alligators to worry about the living standards of its people.

I think this more or less sums up what my stance is on this matter.

The Imperium is not a monolithic or united entity, so I find it silly to criticize the Imperium for the actions of a certain segment of the population. It's akin to judging the Imperium based on how Tanith is goverened, or how the Salamanders treat people.

 Anemone wrote:

Nazi's killed people in Dachau but not in Berlin, hence its fine," the Imperium is the government of all those worlds, meaning the practices it permits and tolerates on those worlds are its fault.

Not at all. Hitler's government is far more centralized than the Imperium (Who frequently has entire sections of it going out of contact from Terra for decades, or even centuries). Many with their own wildly different cultures and beliefs (The Nazis mostly spoke the same language for the same part). The difference between someone in the Cryptus system and the planet Tanith is much, much greater than it is between Dachau and Berlin.

Nazi Germany was more or less a monolithic entity, whereas the Imperium really isn't a monolithic entity. So I find tarring the whole Imperium with the same brush to be a rather disingenuous thing.

A better comparison would be to looking at feudal Europe, but even that doesn't really really compare to the sheer mass and breadth of the Imperium. It would be impossible for the Imperium to enforce every single detail on every single local customs on every single world. Such a thing would be logistically impossible and ridiculous.

 Anemone wrote:

Nothing you say changes that the Imperium is a government which both permits and tolerates sexual slavery (among many other travesties) and that for all this talk of 'liberal' attitude the fact remains that the Imperium remains a government which permits the constant and repeated rape of billions of women throughout the galaxy. It does not matter that in certain districts it does not occur, that does not change what the Government permits and tolerates. It is legal in the Imperium to practice sexual slavery.
ept?

It is legal on some parts of the Imperium to do that. That fact that it happens is irrelevant when discussing the larger Imperium due to the sheer size and diversity of it that makes it impossible to standardize any sort of thing. As I've said above, I don't necessarily find the Imperium's central government to be at fault for that sort of thing.

And may I have some sort of quote or passage from the relevant text on the "pleasure servitors''? I'm curious to see the exact context. Is it ever specified that they are sex slaves or is that your assumption?

 Anemone wrote:

I don't really see why I should have to provide an example of a world destroyed for religious reasons in the Imperium, you can search that easily, since you've yet to give me the textual source for a comprehensive homosexual couple prominent in the Imperium or a world which is a democratic body which provides worker's rights and an impartial justice system. Once you address that question of mine, which I gave before you, then I will respond to this question, but I'm not simply going to turn around and provide examples simply to change the topic.
ept?

Why not? You made the claim first and I'm not required to prove a negative. Absence of evidence of not evidence of absence.

Never mind I already addressed your strawman example and you chose to ignore it.

After all, that is quite the double standard you have going here. I'm not certain what prevents you from posting your evidence to support your claims as I put out some of the exmaples I've read. I mean, I'm not making an argument, but if you are then logically the burden of proof would fall upon you to support your claims.

Nor do I consider it changing the topic at all. After all, I'm just asking you to provide evidence you claimed in your very first post.

 Anemone wrote:

Interesting, so you believe if a non-Astarte denied the Emperor's divinity they'd be fine?

No, I don't think anyone is claiming that.

 Anemone wrote:

Besides nothing you said changes my point; you still have to add lip service to the Emperor, meaning you're still curtailed by the state-sanctioned religion, you still do not have freedom of religion in any form, you cannot express faith in a deity other than the Emperor and you cannot express doubt or a lack of belief in the divinity of the Emperor. Honestly since you cannot dispute this point I fail to see how you argue that the Imperium provides freedom of religion, including atheism and agnosticism, when all you're saying is that the Imperium provides the freedom to interpret one faith in different ways.

I'm not arguing about anything. Just stating my interpretation of the setting. One is unlikely to convince someone to change their opinion on the internet. Such things are in my experiance, a fruitless waste of time. Hence why I'm just offering my opinions of things.

I don't think anybody here is arguing complete freedom of religion, just that the Imperial religion itself is very flexible on it's exact tenants.

 Anemone wrote:

Your argument here amounts to saying; "A Christian state which requires all citizens to express faith in the Christian God but allows them to freely choose whatever denomination they want, has religious freedom," completely ignoring the fact that any citizen within this polity has no right to select a faith other than the Christian God, be an atheist or agnostic. The Imperium is not liberal.

Again, I'm not arguing. I'm just stating my opinion of the setting.

I do certainly consider the Imperium to be liberal in the sense it's flexible and open towards denomination of it's own religion.

 Anemone wrote:

No, I'm not assuming black and white, I'm simply pointing out that the Imperium is far to totalitarian to be called liberal and that attempts to dress it up as an 'open', 'free' and 'liberal' society of compassion are deceptive.

No, I think you are assuming things in black and white, which is why you are treating the Imperium as some monolithic united entity.

I mean, if you feel it's far too totalitarian, then that's fine. That's your right a a poster. I really don't see it that way and I think it's ignoring the vast diversity and complexity of the Imperium.

Nor is anyone arguing that the Imperium is this open and free society. That's a strawman you are putting out.

 Anemone wrote:

This changes nothing, its equivalent to a slave-owning Empire going; "But in our capital we have no slaves, so there's really no problem, we just keep them working in the mines and plantations, not in our houses," does that sound liberal or compassionate to you?

In terms of allowing what each planet does? Yes in the sense that ''each planet generally has it's own practices and values". That is after all a product of the setting. The Imperium probably can't make sure each and every single planet follows the exact economic and cultural practices.

 Anemone wrote:

Additionally, having read the fluff of 40k, I am very hard pressed to find any examples of these paradise-like democratic, compassionate and advanced planets you keep mentioning where no form of slavery or servitude exists and politics is free and impartial.

Where do I keep on mentioning these planets?

I mean, I can keep on putting out examples of the cultural and societal diversity, but I'm not putting forth your strawman if that's what your asking.

 Anemone wrote:

My reading seems to suggest that all planets i read about in the fluff usually practice some form of slavery, including servitors who are lobotomized slaves, never have an impartial justice system and that's without even getting into the politics. The Imperium is not liberal.

If that's how you interpret the setting, then that is your right. That certainly isn't my reading of things.

I don't necessarily consider servitors to be slaves actually. the exact practice of servitors differs between worlds. Some are vat-grown, others are noted to be condemned criminals, others failed aspirants. I don't doubt some planets probably employ servitors like that, but others are probably just grown meat-sacks or a capital punishment for criminals.

 Anemone wrote:

That's not what I asked for, give me a planet which is as perfect as you are describing, if you are so certain they exist in the Imperium, show them to me please.

I don't think I ever claimed that life in the Imperium is perfect. Obviously if you set up a strawman I'm not obligated to find it for you, especially given I never really claimed anything like that.

 Anemone wrote:

Wasn't it ruled by virtual-hereditary industrial cartels which treated their employees very poorly? I'll admit my memory is hazy but you yourself seem uncertain of its democratic credentials considering your use of 'apparently'.

It's been a while since I've read it, but I do recall they had some sort of assembly or parliament.

Otherwise I would probably just point to locarno24's post on the Imperium's government.

 Anemone wrote:

Yes, multiple variations, multiple denominations, not actually multiple different religions or respect for atheists or agnostics. This is akin to saying a state which allows many denominations of one religion, but murders all practitioners of other religions, atheists or agnostic somehow has freedom of religion. It does not make sense.

Nobody is arguing that the Imperium has complete freedom of religion, as I've said before, just that it is remarkably liberal and flexible with what it currently has.

 Anemone wrote:

Differing political thought patterns do not equate freedom of thought; or otherwise both the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were liberal intellectual societies simply because internal differences in thinking and opinion existed.

Ah, so some difference of thought does indeed exist then. It's not just a grey faceless mass then.

And what about all the cultural and differing belief practices that greatly differ to Imperium norm then? Like the Space Wolves and the Catachans.

 Anemone wrote:

No it wouldn't; the locals desire to worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster (defined as an entity separate to the Emperor) and refuse to accept the Emperor as their deity, insist that it is the Flying Spaghetti Monster not the Emperor. They would all be killed for a failure to convert, as the Cannoness was doing on Lysios.

On some planets maybe. On others it might very well be like that. The lore mentions that the Ecclisiarchy likes to subvert local religions and identify them with the Emperor.

 Anemone wrote:

Why is it remarkable by the setting? The Craftworld Eldar, Exodites, Tau, Nicassar, Kroot, Diasporex, Interex and many others don't practice sexual slavery or internal repression of differing faiths, why is it remarkable that the Imperium does these things other nations don't do??

The Disporex and Interex are 30k so I'm fine with dismissing them as an example.

Can you prove that the Kroot or Nicassar don't do those things?

The Tau certainly do that. Or at the very least in more recent fluff. The Damocles anthology for example has humans forced to take on Tau names and culture. Tau are expressedly forbidded to any cross-caste activity or beliefs to the extent that the Tau drag away and kill those who believe that. (One Water Caste representative very much worries about that). I suppose the Craftworld Eldar are ore egalitarian than the planets of the Cryptus system, but comparing that to the vastness of the Imperium is largely meaningless.

You might as well compare Commander Farsight's morality to Gregor Eisenhorn as a judgement of the Inquisition or Eldrad to Ciaphas Cain as a judgement of the entire Imperial Guard.

 Anemone wrote:

I'm sorry but I really have to clarify; is the argument you are making that, because LGBT characters never appear in any Warhammer story ever, that the Imperium is tolerant and accepting of LGBT individuals?

I'm not making an argument, just stating my view of things.

I'm not arguing that either (Though I certainly take that as my interpretation of the setting). We simply don't know either way, which is why I find it odd people jump to conclusions.

 Anemone wrote:

But why would you disagree with it? You are already stating that simply because no explicit anti-LGBT discrimination is shown in the Imperium that it automatically is tolerant of them, since no explicit denial of the Consortium of Cheese Wheels is ever made how can you disagree with it under your own logic? By your logic you must now accept as canon any statement made which is not directly or explicitly denied.

Why would I have to accept it? The 40k setting is all about interpretation, opinions and heresay. 40k ''canon'' is incredibly contradictory and subjective even at the best of times. (For example, how the details of the Horus Heresy changed greatly compared to the Index Astartes and the Horus Heresy novel series)

If I wanted to, I could ignore Black Library as being non-canon or regard Leviathan and Exterminatus as being non-canon. I'm fine if other people do likewise. You might find this surprising, but I'm fine with people having different opinions and interpretations than me.

 Anemone wrote:

None of this changes that the Imperium is a government which practices and tolerates slavery, child slavery, sexual slavery, institutionalized slavery, institutionalized torture, collective punishment, corruption, a rigged justice system, a lack of political representation, worker's rights, child murder, mass murder, genocide, ethnic cleansing, repression of political and religious freedoms and far more.

Certainly some planets in the Imperium practice that. That's not the same to varying degrees in the rest of the Imperium. The Imperium isn't really a monolithic entity like that.

 Anemone wrote:

So, again, to clarify your argument is; "Since we don't see LGBT characters there's no problem since we just happen to never see them but they are all off-screen being perfectly fine," do you understand how much this exact approach is used to justify the exclusion of any LGBT characters in stories?

I'm not making an argument, just positing my view on the setting.

 Anemone wrote:

How much this is campaigned against since it is a tool which enables an individual to treat a segment of a population as not existing in a story and then 'justifying' it? It begins to seem like your goal is simply defending the Imperium as a utopia.

I don't think I ever claimed the Imperium is a utopia. That's your strawman. I'm never entirely certain what in-universe treatment of individuals necessarily has to do with the out-universe way authors write it.

 Anemone wrote:

Interesting fact about the High Lords is that, of the twenty-six or so we know, only three have ever been anything but male. A lack of female representation too in this egalitarian and liberal society then.

How do you know they started life as male? They might be transgender for all we know.

And nobody here is claiming that the Imperium is necessarily egalitarian or liberal. That's a strawman.

@Iocarno24: I specifically said a non-Astarte denying the divinity of the Emperor, to my knowledge Bjorn is an Astarte.

Also I don't see anywhere in your answer a section in which the Imperium expresses any explicit opposition to slavery. Indeed the government tolerates it on hundreds of planets so it is clearly not illegal in the same way consorting with aliens, practising a religion other than the Emperor's or rejecting religion is.

The Imperium permits slavery but does not permit atheism or agnosticism. Fact. And of course the central government must be held liable for the policies it permits. If the Imperium were shown to crush slavery and it only existed illegally I'd be inclined to agree with you, but clearly that's not how they feel at all.

@Pendix: Actually I hadn't thought of that at all, but it is a good point, any Multiculturalism exists predominately in a culturally exclusive bubble.

@Gree:

I think this more or less sums up what my stance is on this matter.

The Imperium is not a monolithic or united entity, so I find it silly to criticize the Imperium for the actions of a certain segment of the population. It's akin to judging the Imperium based on how Tanith is goverened, or how the Salamanders treat people.

But Iocarno does express a judgement here; that the Imperium is not a nice place to live.

Putting that aside; of course you judge a government by the actions taken by its membership. All governments are judged by what their officials and military branches do. What else would you judge a government by?

Nazi Germany was more or less a monolithic entity, whereas the Imperium really isn't a monolithic entity. So I find tarring the whole Imperium with the same brush to be a rather disingenuous thing.

So your argument is the Imperium is simply sui generis and can't be discussed? Also Nazism was not monolithic, that'd be like describing the Soviet Union as monolithic, an outdated way of thinking of historical events to simplify them, all nations are highly complex working entities, they are never monolithic.

It is legal on some parts of the Imperium to do that. That fact that it happens is irrelevant when discussing the larger Imperium due to the sheer size and diversity of it that makes it impossible to standardize any sort of thing. As I've said above, I don't necessarily find the Imperium's central government to be at fault for that sort of thing.

It is legal, that's all that matters, this means that it is legal to practice both sex slavery and regular slavery in the Imperium. You might be fine with that but I definitely would not approve of a government which condones and tolerates the sexual slavery of women.

Honestly what would you find the Imperium's central government liable for then? You seem to absolve them of everything? If nothing's their fault then what do they do?

And may I have some sort of quote or passage from the relevant text on the "pleasure servitors''? I'm curious to see the exact context. Is it ever specified that they are sex slaves or is that your assumption?

In the Shield of Baal the head of the Flavian Dynasty has a 'female slave-servitor' clad in porcelain who serves him 'willowy nymph' decanters of alcohol and acts as a tv screen for him.

Nor do I consider it changing the topic at all. After all, I'm just asking you to provide evidence you claimed in your very first post.

When you offer the evidence to the questions I asked prior I shall do so.

One is unlikely to convince someone to change their opinion on the internet. Such things are in my experiance, a fruitless waste of time.

This I agree with completely

I do certainly consider the Imperium to be liberal in the sense it's flexible and open towards denomination of it's own religion.

So that's your definition of liberal? So by your definition the Nazi's were liberal as they were open to multiple denominations of the Christian religion?

Nor is anyone arguing that the Imperium is this open and free society.

Then what are you arguing?

In terms of allowing what each planet does? Yes in the sense that ''each planet generally has it's own practices and values". That is after all a product of the setting. The Imperium probably can't make sure each and every single planet follows the exact economic and cultural practices.

None of this addresses the point I made; the Imperium permits slavery, some places in the Imperium don't practice slavery, but that does not change that the Imperium permits slavery and tolerates it with no opposition. Again does that sound liberal or compassionate to you?

Where do I keep on mentioning these planets?

When you keep mentioning democratic planets, if the Imperium has these enlightened democratic worlds I want to read about them

I don't necessarily consider servitors to be slaves actually.

What?

Some are vat-grown

So growing a slave race is absolutely moral in your opinion?

Otherwise I would probably just point to locarno24's post on the Imperium's government.

In which he mentions how brutal it is and never describes it as 'liberal', 'open' or 'compassionate'. Well if that's what you're saying then I agree completely and am glad we've arrived at the same point

complete freedom of religion

It doesn't have freedom of religion, it has a single state-sanctioned faith and ideology which you must adhere to on pain of death.

just that it is remarkably liberal and flexible with what it currently has.

What is remarkable about it?

Ah, so some difference of thought does indeed exist then. It's not just a grey faceless mass then.

And what about all the cultural and differing belief practices that greatly differ to Imperium norm then? Like the Space Wolves and the Catachans.

Now you are creating strawmen.

As for the second point; as I said earlier that is an example of intra-Imperium cultures, so then be specific and state the Imperium is only, to an extent, human multicultural. I said earlier already that it is acceptable, but then be specific and not deceptive.

On some planets maybe. On others it might very well be like that. The lore mentions that the Ecclisiarchy likes to subvert local religions and identify them with the Emperor.

Precisely, subvert, the people would still not be allowed to worship the religion they wanted to; the Flying Spaghetti Monster as a distinct deity from the Emperor, no relation between them at all.

Honestly since you've already accepted there isn't freedom of religion in the Imperium, only variation of a single dominant mono-faith, I'm not sure why you're still arguing this point.

Regardless the fact remains; your point simply underlines the message that people are not permitted to worship the religion they wish too if they wish too have a religion separate to worshiping the Emperor.

Can you prove that the Kroot or Nicassar don't do those things?

Can you prove that they do? You seem to be quite taken with the idea that if something is not explicitly stated it must not be true.

Additionally the evidence I'd use is how neither the Kroot or Nicassar have ever sought to compel the Tau to embrace their faiths and ideologies, or how the Kroot maintain their own ideology within the Tau Empire and do not assimilate or force upon others their views.

The Tau certainly do that. Or at the very least in more recent fluff. The Damocles anthology for example has humans forced to take on Tau names and culture. Tau are expressedly forbidded to any cross-caste activity or beliefs to the extent that the Tau drag away and kill those who believe that. (One Water Caste representative very much worries about that).

I'd agree that the Tau's Caste system is there most repressive aspect by far, in many ways the Tau Empire is most repressive of their own species, since they allow all member species to continue practicing any religions or cultural traditions they want, including worship of the Emperor if they want to in Skilltaker.

I suppose the Craftworld Eldar are ore egalitarian than the planets of the Cryptus system, but comparing that to the vastness of the Imperium is largely meaningless.

Alright then; which part of the Imperium are the Craftworld Eldar or Imperium less egalitarian than then?

You might as well compare Commander Farsight's morality to Gregor Eisenhorn as a judgement of the Inquisition or Eldrad to Ciaphas Cain as a judgement of the entire Imperial Guard.

Why not? In a story how else, other than using characters, do you make judgements?

You seem to be indicating you just think we can't say anything about the matter at all.

(Though I certainly take that as my interpretation of the setting).

So do you always then assume if a story doesn't have reference to LGBT individuals within it that it has a progressive and enlightened attitude of tolerance to them? You don't consider the problem of exclusion by treating them as not existing at all?

Why would I have to accept it? The 40k setting is all about interpretation, opinions and heresay. 40k ''canon'' is incredibly contradictory and subjective even at the best of times. (For example, how the details of the Horus Heresy changed greatly compared to the Index Astartes and the Horus Heresy novel series)

If I wanted to, I could ignore Black Library as being non-canon or regard Leviathan and Exterminatus as being non-canon. I'm fine if other people do likewise. You might find this surprising, but I'm fine with people having different opinions and interpretations than me.

So there is honestly then no point to discussion with you since your position amounts to; "believe what you want and its canon,"?

I'm never entirely certain what in-universe treatment of individuals necessarily has to do with the out-universe way authors write it.

What?

How do you know they started life as male? They might be transgender for all we know.

Your argument is that because we don't know the full bio of each High Lord of Terra we should just assume any of them could be transgender? Why do none of them identify as women then? Or as Intersex? Why do they all identify as men?

And nobody here is claiming that the Imperium is necessarily egalitarian or liberal.

Haven't you called the Imperium 'liberal' three times now?

The Imperium is multicultural, that is a fact. It dosen't matter what you culture is, as long as A) you're worshipping the Emperor and B) you're not a Chaos scum.

@Xathrodox: The Imperium is 'Human multicultural' is a fact. What qualifies for a 'Multicultural' society is a very subjective measure.

Additionally there are more requirements then the ones you listed. Additional requirements include;

-Not being an alien
-Not consorting with aliens
-Not being unwilling to murder any alien man, woman, child or entity you ever encounter
-Surrendering of technological development and maintenance to the system of the Mechanicus
-Providing the required Tithe

These are all major socio-political conditions and not simply small and simple requirements, in reality these are enormous resource and political demands upon states. Simply dismissing them as minor isn't very accurate to how much an impact on a society such requirements would have.

If your culture doesn't include these requirements, as well as the two you mentioned before, then it will be forcibly compelled to comply to them once possible.