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Does the monoculture thing come from most of the models being painted as white or something? Being as vast as it is it would be impossible to be monocultured, yet these threads show up all the time still.

Models and artwork. But it's also a cycle. The artwork is designed to look as close to the models as possible, and then people use the artwork as a reference for painting the models, so we don't see the level of variation that we know exists, as represented in FFG and BL publications.

 Anemone wrote:

But Iocarno does express a judgement here; that the Imperium is not a nice place to live.

Hence my more or less part. I do disagree with him on that.

We see this don't we? Supplementary material has their share of nice pastoral worlds or quiet civilized places that don't soom too different from modern 20th century earth. I certainly would't mind living on Perlia or Thracian for example.

 Anemone wrote:

Putting that aside; of course you judge a government by the actions taken by its membership. All governments are judged by what their officials and military branches do. What else would you judge a government by?

Oh, I can judge it. I just find that portion of the Imperium to be rather insignificant compared to the grand scheme of things.

 Anemone wrote:

So your argument is the Imperium is simply sui generis and can't be discussed? Also Nazism was not monolithic, that'd be like describing the Soviet Union as monolithic, an outdated way of thinking of historical events to simplify them, all nations are highly complex working entities, they are never monolithic.

Once again, I'm not making an argument. I'm just stating my personal opinion on the setting. You seem to be under the strange impression that I am.

And yes, I do consider the Imperium vastly different. The size, technology and cultures of the Imperium is vastly different than a single planet bound nation. By the nature of a galactic empire it inherently is.

 Anemone wrote:

It is legal, that's all that matters, this means that it is legal to practice both sex slavery and regular slavery in the Imperium.

It's legal in Cryptus yes. How much that means in the wider Imperium is irrelevant. You might have another planet where slavery is illegal. Does that mean that slavery in the Imperium is now illegal?

 Anemone wrote:

Honestly what would you find the Imperium's central government liable for then? You seem to absolve them of everything? If nothing's their fault then what do they do?

I would place liability for the actual galaxy-spanning decisions the High Lords do. Anything else would be at at a case by case basis given the various levels of technology and culture on each individual nation.

For example, I would find it silly to hold the central government of the Imperium responsible for the local government policies of a distant backwater planet ten thousand light years away that hasn't had contact with the Imperium in over two centuries.

 Anemone wrote:

In the Shield of Baal the head of the Flavian Dynasty has a 'female slave-servitor' clad in porcelain who serves him 'willowy nymph' decanters of alcohol and acts as a tv screen for him.

Okay, where does it say she is a sex slave? So far it seems pretty mundane to me.

 Anemone wrote:

When you offer the evidence to the questions I asked prior I shall do so.

How convenient for you. Despite making said claims first you don't have to provide evidence for them.

 Anemone wrote:

This I agree with completely

Than why exactly are you bothering to reply?

I would say at this point neither of us is going to budge on the issue, so why not agree to disagree then? Unless you wish to argue into ad nauseam.

 Anemone wrote:

So that's your definition of liberal? So by your definition the Nazi's were liberal as they were open to multiple denominations of the Christian religion?

As I said before, liberal by comparison.

The Imperium very much could try to enforce a strict code of religion and protocols on each world. They don't. The Imperial religion and government is fairly flexible for a galactic empire worshiping a god-emperor. It has to be.

That's why you have a variety of cultures and governments. That's why you have a dizzying array of different Imperial cults and beliefs.

 Anemone wrote:

None of this addresses the point I made; the Imperium permits slavery, some places in the Imperium don't practice slavery, but that does not change that the Imperium permits slavery and tolerates it with no opposition. Again does that sound liberal or compassionate to you?

Some planets permit slavery. That very much means little in the wider scheme of things

The Imperium doesn't really care about local laws as long as they follow some very broad guidelines about tithes, the Emperor and suchlike.

The slavery it itself doesn't seem liberal, but the practice of generally having an apathetic hand? Yes, I consider that fairly liberal.

 Anemone wrote:

When you keep mentioning democratic planets, if the Imperium has these enlightened democratic worlds I want to read about them

I never claimed where where worlds with the exact set of specifications which you demanded to see in your strawman.

I mean, I can point out to locarno24's post. Some planets do have democracies. Some have trade unions. Others have more relaxed systems of goverment. Not many have the very narrow set of liberal guidelines that you demand.

 Anemone wrote:

What?

Some are criminals. Many nations today used forced labor for criminals. Depending on the crime I don't consider it an invalid punishment at all.

 Anemone wrote:

So growing a slave race is absolutely moral in your opinion?

I don't necessarily consider them slaves. See above.

Being that, it would very much depend on how sapient said meat-sack is when first grown. I certainly don't consider it a problem if it's just a bunch if organs grown and added to technology.

But beyond that I make no moral judgements. Merely that everything should be observed on a case by case basis.

 Anemone wrote:

In which he mentions how brutal it is and never describes it as 'liberal', 'open' or 'compassionate'. Well if that's what you're saying then I agree completely and am glad we've arrived at the same point

I don't think I ever particularly claimed any of those things...

Brutal, yet apathetic in most cases towards the planetary government and religion. Hence my point.

 Anemone wrote:

It doesn't have freedom of religion, it has a single state-sanctioned faith and ideology which you must adhere to on pain of death.

A state sanctioned religion that is so broad and vague to be almost meaningless.

I don't think anyone here ever claimed it was complete freedom of religion, yet at the same time such a wide tolerance for different variations is at the same time flexible.

 Anemone wrote:

What is remarkable about it?

That it is comparatively flexible despite the supposed totalitarian nature and grimdark nature of the setting. The Imperium is remarkably hands off apart from a few very broad guidelines and duties.

You can have for example a constitutional monarchy that worships the Emperor as a sun god. You can have another world that regards the Emperor as a multi-facted being and another that identified him in general as a animistic spirit god living in the planet.

 Anemone wrote:

Now you are creating strawmen.

No, that is very much you. You are the one who pushed forward everything as a moral absolute and one who pushes everything to a faceless thoughtless mass or a perfect egalitarian paradise.

 Anemone wrote:

As for the second point; as I said earlier that is an example of intra-Imperium cultures, so then be specific and state the Imperium is only, to an extent, human multicultural. I said earlier already that it is acceptable, but then be specific and not deceptive.

I don't consider it to be deceptive at all. Especially considering the nature of the Imperium as something to not be monolithic. All those examples I provided are indeed various forms of deviation and thought from the Imperial norm.

Yeah, obviously the Imperium is human multicultural. I don't consider that to be a mark against them or deceptive at all when considering the nature of other Xenos and Chaos cultures in the galaxy.

 Anemone wrote:

Precisely, subvert, the people would still not be allowed to worship the religion they wanted to; the Flying Spaghetti Monster as a distinct deity from the Emperor, no relation between them at all.

As I said, semantics. Such a thing would eventually be de facto associated with the Emperor.

 Anemone wrote:

Honestly since you've already accepted there isn't freedom of religion in the Imperium, only variation of a single dominant mono-faith, I'm not sure why you're still arguing this point.

Again, I'm not arguing. I'm just stating my interpretation of things.

I never argued that there was complete freedom of religion in the Imperium, just a remarkable degree of flexibility between that one (very broad) religion.

 Anemone wrote:

Regardless the fact remains; your point simply underlines the message that people are not permitted to worship the religion they wish too if they wish too have a religion separate to worshiping the Emperor.

Yes and?

I'm not sure how that changes my point. I do consider it remarkable for such a single religion to have so many different variations and be tolerated to such an extent.

 Anemone wrote:

Can you prove that they do? You seem to be quite taken with the idea that if something is not explicitly stated it must not be true.

No, that is your strawman. I'm merely on the position that we simply don't know.

 Anemone wrote:

Additionally the evidence I'd use is how neither the Kroot or Nicassar have ever sought to compel the Tau to embrace their faiths and ideologies, or how the Kroot maintain their own ideology within the Tau Empire and do not assimilate or force upon others their views.

Ah, so in other words no real proof then.

 Anemone wrote:

Why not? In a story how else, other than using characters, do you make judgements?

Because one character is not a representative of an entire organization? Just like locarno24's point? The Inquisition is so vast and fragmented that to base a judgement off of it from a single Inquisitor is pointless.

 Anemone wrote:

You seem to be indicating you just think we can't say anything about the matter at all.

Of course you can. That is your right as a poster. Just as I can point out why I personally disagree with it.

 Anemone wrote:

So do you always then assume if a story doesn't have reference to LGBT individuals within it that it has a progressive and enlightened attitude of tolerance to them? You don't consider the problem of exclusion by treating them as not existing at all?

Neither of those things. I simply conclude it's an element that different on each planet and diverse culture of the Imperium. Some have equal rights. Others might not.

 Anemone wrote:

So there is honestly then no point to discussion with you since your position amounts to; "believe what you want and its canon,"?

If you wish to discuss opinions than that's fine. I always enjoy a healthy, respectful debate.

Nor do I consider my stance odd. I mean, after all that's what Black Library essentially tells us. Have you read Aaron Dembski-Bowden or Marc Gasigone's takes on the subject? It's very interesting.

''It's all true, and none of it is,''

 Anemone wrote:

What?

It's exactly as it sounds. Just because Black Library authors chose to not just certain LGBT characters into their stories does not mean that in-universe, such individuals are mistreated.

 Anemone wrote:

Your argument is that because we don't know the full bio of each High Lord of Terra we should just assume any of them could be transgender? Why do none of them identify as women then? Or as Intersex? Why do they all identify as men?

How do we know they all identify as men or that they used to be women? It's about as valid as anything you've said.

 Anemone wrote:

Haven't you called the Imperium 'liberal' three times now?

''Liberal'' in the sense that it is markedly open and flexible with some very broad guidelines. Not ''Liberal'' in the sense that it's the Star Trek Federeation as an enlightened example of humanistic values. I've already tried to explain this on multiple occasions.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anemone wrote:

-Not being an alien
-Not consorting with aliens

I would fold all of this under ''loyal to the Emperor'' in general. Nobody seriously expects xenos to happily join the Imperium.

 Anemone wrote:

-Not being unwilling to murder any alien man, woman, child or entity you ever encounter

A bit iffy on that one. We have plenty of examples of terrified civilians running away from alien invaders. I don't think anyone seriously expects the non-military aspects of the Imperium to take action in combat.

 Anemone wrote:

-Surrendering of technological development and maintenance to the system of the Mechanicus

Depends more on how much influence the Mechanicus has on the particular planet.

 Anemone wrote:

-Providing the required Tithe

The Imperium taxes it's worlds yes, but so does most functioning governments.

 Anemone wrote:

These are all major socio-political conditions and not simply small and simple requirements, in reality these are enormous resource and political demands upon states. Simply dismissing them as minor isn't very accurate to how much an impact on a society such requirements would have.

I don't consider the first three to be that major actually. Especially given the relentlessly hostile nature of most xenos in the universe.

 Anemone wrote:

If your culture doesn't include these requirements, as well as the two you mentioned before, then it will be forcibly compelled to comply to them once possible.

On paper at least.

In practice few people are going to care that some backwater world is using some modified tractors to farm or might be trading a few xenos items on the black market. The phobia of aliens or a sensible de facto policy. I mean, we have examples of the local officials (and it always comes down to the local officials doing these things. It would be impossible for a central authority to enforce that constantly on a galaxy-wide basis) giving a blind eye to Tau influence or ambassadors. I mean, in the Cain novels the Imperium has actually engaged in realpolitik with Tau diplomats.

The major things to the central government of the Imperium is that the tithes are paid on time and the system is generally loyal to the Emperor. Things like tech-deviation and even the local religion usually have alot of flexibility and sway and would generally have to come under the influence of the local officials.

 Anemone wrote:
Additionally there are more requirements then the ones you listed. Additional requirements include;

-Not being an alien
-Not consorting with aliens
-Not being unwilling to murder any alien man, woman, child or entity you ever encounter
-Surrendering of technological development and maintenance to the system of the Mechanicus
-Providing the required Tithe

Actually, there is one more that is often overlooked:
- Have a singular representative that the Imperial government can hold as responsible for that world.

 Anemone wrote:
These are all major socio-political conditions and not simply small and simple requirements, in reality these are enormous resource and political demands upon states.

Certainly, but even within that framework there is going to be room for a huge amount of cultural variation (greater than we know on our own earth). Afterall, the best way to generate distinct and different cultures is through separation and isolation, things the Imperium has in spades.

Ofcourse, to qualify, those strictures are also going to create certain trends (for instance; Monarchies & Dictatorships are going to be more common due to the 'Singular Rep' requirement), but that's not the same thing as cultural homogeneity.

Wipes read a join date as a post date

As a point of order, the Abbess of the Adepta Sororitas is often on the Council of Terra, so at least one High Lord is female.

@Gree:

We see this don't we? Supplementary material has their share of nice pastoral worlds or quiet civilized places that don't soom too different from modern 20th century earth. I certainly would't mind living on Perlia or Thracian for example.

I would. Since I wouldn't be able to practice the faiths or ideologies I believe in. In fact I'd be killed for it. Millions of us would be killed for it. Is that your idea of a nice place? A place where if you hold your own ideology or faith then the state murders you?

Oh, I can judge it. I just find that portion of the Imperium to be rather insignificant compared to the grand scheme of things.

Then what is significant? You've rendered everything into insignificance at this stage, your goal seems to simply be to make it impossible to have meaningful discourse

You might have another planet where slavery is illegal. Does that mean that slavery in the Imperium is now illegal?

Give me an example of a planet in which it is explicitly stated that slavery is against the law.

As for what it would mean; Did the fact that European colonial powers didn't enslave their own people mean that they weren't slaving nations? Is your argument that if slavery is only restricted to certain groups its okay? Its fine? You do realize no polity in history applies slavery to all individuals, there are always classes of society excluded from the slaving process, that does not change a society or polity being a slaver state or nation. The Imperium is, due to its practice thereof, an explicit slaver state. But apparently slavery is popular here much to my dismay.

For example, I would find it silly to hold the central government of the Imperium responsible for the local government policies of a distant backwater planet ten thousand light years away that hasn't had contact with the Imperium in over two centuries.

Why? That is exactly how government accountability works. A central government is supposed to step in. You do realize that if a state in a nation begins, for example, enslaving its population people don't expect the Central Government to just stand back and do nothing, that would be seen as immoral. The duty of the Central Government would then be to step in and stop this.

Hence, obviously, the Imperium's Central Government is liable.

Okay, where does it say she is a sex slave? So far it seems pretty mundane to me.

Really?

How convenient for you. Despite making said claims first you don't have to provide evidence for them.

Very invective but ultimately meaningless, the same goes for you and I'm still awaiting any of your proofs.

Than why exactly are you bothering to reply?

Because you do? Obviously? You do realize a conversation is a two-way-street (at least) thus there's no more burden on me to end it than there is on you. If you want to end it fine, that's your right, but I don't need to stop posting anymore than you do.

As I said before, liberal by comparison.

To what? Orks and Chaos? That's a meaningless discussion.

The Imperium isn't liberal, didn't you just later in your previous post say that you never called the Imperium liberal? While which is it, would you describe the Imperium as liberal or not?

That's why you have a variety of cultures and governments. That's why you have a dizzying array of different Imperial cults and beliefs.

Human ones practicing the exact same state sanctioned faith and ideology within broad guidelines, two enormous restrictions on all citizens of the Imperium (although subjects would be more appropriate). I mean, to use an easy example, no Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Atheist or Agnostic would be allowed to live in the Imperium, they'd be killed when found out.

That's liberal to you?

The slavery it itself doesn't seem liberal, but the practice of generally having an apathetic hand? Yes, I consider that fairly liberal.

You consider apathy liberal? You consider a literal state-sanctioned faith and ideology enforced by pain of death liberal? So to your mind Saudi Arabia and every country on Earth must be shining beacons of liberalism? In fact even historically speaking you must then believe, by this logic, that every state or polity that has ever existed was highly liberal?

So what's illiberal then?

I never claimed where where worlds with the exact set of specifications which you demanded to see in your strawman.

But that is specifically what I asked for but, instead of answering the question by admitting you didn't have any, you dodged it till now.

I don't necessarily consider them slaves.

I'll be honest, putting aside a fantasy world for a while, your view on individual life and rights frightens me.

Brutal, yet apathetic in most cases towards the planetary government and religion. Hence my point.

Your point being that it is liberal? That's the word I see you use to describe it most of the time, yet Iocarno never described it as such. So what is your point, that the Imperium is liberal?

A state sanctioned religion that is so broad and vague to be almost meaningless.

Not at all meaningless! It means anyone who refuses to accept the divinity of the Emperor in some form or who refuses to believe in the Emperor is killed!

Those are lives, ended, for their having differing beliefs and opinions, how can you say that it is meaningless?

No, that is very much you.

No, you!

See, I can do it too, but it doesn't prove much.

As I said, semantics. Such a thing would eventually be de facto associated with the Emperor.

You don't know what semantics means do you? The difference between, say, worshiping Vishnu to worshiping Allah are not semantics at all, those are deeply held beliefs by individuals.

Again in this situation people desiring to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster as a separate deity to the Emperor would be compelled to abandon this belief of theirs. Honestly why are we still on this point, its indisputable. The Imperium will not allow people to worship a deity they regard as separate to the Emperor.

I do consider it remarkable for such a single religion to have so many different variations and be tolerated to such an extent.

So in your opinion Nazi Germany is remarkable for permitting numerous denominations of a religion? You believe it is remarkable the moment a state simply permits numerous denominations of a single religion?

You do realize all states in existence have permitted numerous denominations of at least one religion (most states have permitted more than this, or the Imperium, ever has)

I'm merely on the position that we simply don't know.

Then why speak? Surely all you can do is stay silent on the matter since in your opinion there is nothing to say. It is very Wittgenstein of you.

Just as I can point out why I personally disagree with it.

But your reasons for disagreeing are simply to repeat; 'we don't know,' over and over. It makes any discussion impossible.

Honestly what's the point of talking then? You've made clear your position amounts too; 'believe what you want' and that's it. By your logic I legitimately could just say Sapient Cheese Wheels rule everything and it'd be as canon as anything else.

It's exactly as it sounds. Just because Black Library authors chose to not just certain LGBT characters into their stories does not mean that in-universe, such individuals are mistreated.

Again do you actually think that simply not showing these individuals is fine? Do you realize how much campaigning goes into trying to open the world to the appearance and presence of LGBT individuals more by allowing them to have appearances in stories, positive appearances? Why, by this logic, do we have women in stories? Or minorities? Or Humans? Since off-screen everything is always honky-dory, why do we exclusively seem to focus all our attention so much on men? Isn't there something to question there?

How do we know they all identify as men or that they used to be women?

Because they use masculine terms when referring to themselves? When thinking about themselves? I'd think that were obvious.

Also, seriously, is your argument now that all High Lords of Terra are maybe Transgendered individuals? or Intersex individuals? Why doesn't this show up in their Lexicanum bios? Why are they simply referred to as males then?

''Liberal'' in the sense that it is markedly open and flexible with some very broad guidelines.

So you did call it liberal.

I would fold all of this under ''loyal to the Emperor'' in general. Nobody seriously expects xenos to happily join the Imperium.

Then "Loyalty to the Emperor" simply becomes a complex and colossally large requirement, if you want to group them together under one heading that's fine, but it changes nothing.

Why should xenos have to join the Imperium? Why should anyone have to join the Imperium? Based on what rational argumentation is their any need to join the Imperium?

A bit iffy on that one. We have plenty of examples of terrified civilians running away from alien invaders. I don't think anyone seriously expects the non-military aspects of the Imperium to take action in combat.

By unwilling I meant if one had the ability to. But if you wish a more precise rephrase;

-One must never spare the life of an alien when possible, assist aliens, or prevent their destruction in any means capable to you. One must also hate them completely and desire the death of every alien man, woman, child and thing in the galaxy.

Depends more on how much influence the Mechanicus has on the particular planet.

No it doesn't depend, Imperial policy is that the Mechanicus has oversight over technology.

Please give me an example of a world with an attitude towards technology not either overseen by the Mechanicus or influenced by them. You just claim things with no substantiation.

The Imperium taxes it's worlds yes, but so does most functioning governments.

We aren't discussing if what it does are 'normal' or not, we're just discussing what is required.

I don't consider the first three to be that major actually. Especially given the relentlessly hostile nature of most xenos in the universe.

I don't really know what to say to that. If you don't consider them major I can't help, but simply from the facts of politics, economics and society all three those things are very major, and always have been.

@Pendix: Good point, that's another requirement, thanks for pointing it out.

Also I agree with your second point; as I've said the Imperium definitely has a degree of Human multiculturalism, but even that is only to an extent. Additionally, as you say, it has a strong tendency towards repressive and unrepresentative systems.

Indeed the class discrimination within the Imperium is exceeded only by its racial discrimination.

@Psiensis: Didn't I specifically say that of the twenty-six known High Lords of Terra three were women? That obviously included her. Besides she's vanished a while ago meaning that the current High Lords have no female member.

Not that this is strange mind you, I find it odd that someone's arguing that the Imperium is egalitarian towards genders when in the fluff we've been overwhelmingly presented with the fact that males dominate virtually all important positions by an incredibly skewed ratio.

Also having a token female on the High Lords wouldn't suddenly make them egalitarian. That'd be like Saudi Arabia allowing one female advisor and then going; "We have complete equality between women and men," whilst still having a system in which virtually all top and important positions are held solely by males.

Yup, and also being a citizen that always abides to law and follows his superiros. After all, it's all about knowing each other's place in the Imperium of Man.

 Anemone wrote:

Because you do? Obviously? You do realize a conversation is a two-way-street (at least) thus there's no more burden on me to end it than there is on you. If you want to end it fine, that's your right, but I don't need to stop posting anymore than you do.

I kinda stopped reading about here. I could make a more extensive reply to your post, except I think at this point neither of us will change our stance on this. So let’s just agree to disagree then.

@Gree: Understood, we'll leave it at that then. Cheers.

Yeah for the most part they are "multi cultural." So long as you don't worship a god other then the Big E you can have your normal traditions. Seeing as how humanity was spread across the stars on various environments they are going to produce different humans

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Yeah for the most part they are "multi cultural." So long as you don't worship a god other then the Big E you can have your normal traditions. Seeing as how humanity was spread across the stars on various environments they are going to produce different humans

long as you change "insiert gods name" and use some variation on the Big E, your fine.

you can use different names, diffrent worship but long as your not too crazy your good.

 Anemone wrote:
@Pendix: . . . Also I agree with your second point; as I've said the Imperium definitely has a degree of Human multiculturalism . . .

To clarify; as I was saying in my first post, the Imperium doesn't have 'Multiculturalism' as we practice or experience it, each world is functionally a mono-culture. Rather it has a sort-of 'many-cultural-ism', in that it is home to a huge variety of separate & distinct cultures (more varied, even, than we know on our humble little rock).

 Anemone wrote:
Additionally, as you say, it has a strong tendency towards repressive and unrepresentative systems.

Sorry, I didn't say that. I said there would be trends, I even offered an example of one, but I made no speculation on the strength of them, or the levels of repression or representation.

I mean, if you want to have a conversation about the effects of Imperial Strictures on individual worlds cultures (or politics), I'm happy too, (and I think you've sorta been having that conversation with other posters), but don't put words into my mouth.

@Pendix: I'd dispute what's been shown is any more multicultural then what exists in reality, certainly I've never seen anything in GW Fluff as diverse and comprehensive as cultural differences between Zulu, Basotho, Volga German and many others.

I don't think one can really compare the culture as presented in GW fluff to how depthful and complex culture is in reality, GW fluff culture tends to be a very thin layer defined primarily by religious uniformity, discrimination of all sorts and virulent intolerance.

As for the second bit; apologies I must have misunderstood your comment concerning Monarchies and Dictatorships, my mistake.

 Anemone wrote:
@Pendix: I'd dispute what's been shown is any more multicultural then what exists in reality, certainly I've never seen anything in GW Fluff as diverse and comprehensive as cultural differences between Zulu, Basotho, Volga German and many others.

Certainly, 'what's been shown' is not very diverse, but is that an issue with the setting, or an issue with how it is written about/portrayed (and is there a difference?).

We have this problem in 40K, where we are often told, usually by an omniscient narrator, about how the Imperium, parts of the Imperium, or other parts of the setting, works, in big broad brushstrokes. Only, when the attendant fiction starts to drill down into specific stories or subjects, it suddenly doesn't seem to work that way anymore, there is a (I'd almost say fundamental) disconnect.

We are often told about the capabilities of Space Marine, or of their gear (such as boltguns), usually in relatively realistic terms, in codices, and BRBs, and other sourcebooks. Then we get specific stories, (or computer games, for instance), where the Space Marines are portrayed with capabilities vastly in excess of the picture painted in the other material. So marked is this disparity the community has coined the term "Movie Marines".

This whole thing brings up a difficult question, of which is the 'real' 40K? The answer is suppose to be "both; 40K is what you make it". But that hardly resolves vehement internet arguments.

 Anemone wrote:
I don't think one can really compare the culture as presented in GW fluff to how depthful and complex culture is in reality, GW fluff culture tends to be a very thin layer . . .

I'd also like to note that that, at least, is a challenge native to all fictional settings, and I don't believe any have really succeeded in portraying cultures that are as deep and complex as real ones, it's just not possible to do (though there is a sliding scale of failure).

 Anemone wrote:
As for the second bit; apologies I must have misunderstood your comment concerning Monarchies and Dictatorships, my mistake.

It's all good; I just like to ensure people have a clear idea about what I am (and am not) saying.

You pretty much just have to pay your taxes and worship the Emperor - anything else can be overlooked if you have a good enough excuse.

It's not unknown nor unacceptable to hire Xenos mercenaries, trade with races such as the Demiurg, or for alien technology to be traded for (so long as the local Adeptus Mechanicus representative puts the appropriate oils of sanction on it, or what not).

I think the imperium is more multicultural than what is depicted.

I know I was super happy to see an African features marine head in the Deathwatch box. It was a small gesture but meant a lot to see.

Hope they continue to do so and bring in more cultural features and female models. It really is understated how much it means to see features similar to yours in a bunch of places

As I see it the Imperium, although often compared to a feudal state also takes many elements from other Empires such as Imperial Rome and the British Empire.

Technically the central body prefers a light touch, backed by a really big hammer.

As a part of the Imperium your world will be governed by a single person (sex is irrelevant) who is directly responsible for the tithe of warriors, material and whatever else the Imperium deems is correct to pay for its benign protection.

Various Imperial bodies will and enact summary or judicial judgment on your citizens - the Inquisition, The Church, the Mechancium, the Arbites.
You will send all Psykers to the Black Ships.
You will not trade with Aliens
You will hold the Emperor up as the supreme God of the universe and Man, if that means that He is identified with a supreme being already in your culture that's all fine and any Gods that are beneath him are fine.
You will persecute the Mutant.

Other than that just get on with your life.

Want to have democracy - no worries, obey the previous and all will be well. Want to have same sex marriages or the like - why do we care, obey the Imperial dictates. Want to have a dictatorship that enslaves everyone other than the ruling family - if you like, pay your tithe. Want to discriminate against white people - we don't care, pay your tithe. Want to have men as second class citizens - so what - pay your tithe. Slavery is illegal here - don't care, pay your tithe.

The are a vast array of cultures that have adapted or grown within this dictates and many that have been stamped out because they can't.

If a Imperial Governor is appointed from a Imperial Noble or other withy then he or she may well exploit the hell out of the place for their own pleasure- similar to Roman governors.

As long as you pay your taxes and worship the Emperor, The Empire will leave you alone, unless some fanatic faction inquisitor comes to visit!

@Pendix:

Certainly, 'what's been shown' is not very diverse, but is that an issue with the setting, or an issue with how it is written about/portrayed (and is there a difference?).

I agree completely with this.

But at the same time the point I was trying to make was a little different, though the above remains true always. The point is that the Imperium has numerous worlds with a singular dominant cultural theme;

Compare our Earth which has had the Aztec Empire, the Shogunate of Japan, the Kingdom of Shaka Zulu and the British Empire to, say, Fenris with only a Norse influenced cultural theme across the entire planet, or Catachan a world purely made of the Vietnam American culture (and even then only one very specific aspect of it).

Worlds in the Imperium tend to have a single dominant mono-culture (usually an incredibly shallow appropriation of something from the real world) rather than a planet with numerous vastly differing cultural traditions and origins.

The Imperium has a very crude and simplistic cultural diversity among humans. Each World tends to have one culture and that's it, as opposed to the real Earth which, despite being one planet, sees thousands of very diverse cultures emerging on it.

This whole thing brings up a difficult question, of which is the 'real' 40K? The answer is suppose to be "both; 40K is what you make it". But that hardly resolves vehement internet arguments.

A fine answer but, at the same time, it does render most discussion meaningless since I can then, completely, assert that the Sapient Cheese Wheel alliance rules the galaxy.

It should end the arguments because, honestly, if everyone holds to this position then any argument should end instantly with both parties just accepting that whatever they want to believe is true. The existence of further arguments means that clearly not everyone believes this since otherwise there isn't much point to debate. In my opinion of course.

@Crazyterran: It's also not known of for planets to be wiped out for doing such things. In fact the rulebook states its only permitted when it is hidden or on the fringes of the Imperium.

Besides 'just' worshiping the Emperor isn't a small thing. If someone came and told you that everyone has to convert to Christianity right now or die would it be a 'small thing'? Of course not, the Imperium invades and compels the single most important part of any existence; your beliefs and ideals. The Imperium demands conversion to a singular ideology and the extermination of anything which does not conform to this ideology.

I honestly become so frightened that the fanbase seems to think compelled subservience to a single state-sanctioned ideology and the eradication of all other life which does not conform is somehow 'small' or 'trivial'. It means billions die for having their own thoughts and beliefs. Billions is probably to small an estimate; men, women, children real people with families and loved ones, aspirations and goals, wiped out for not desiring to conform to a single ideology enforced by pain of death on them.

I am so glad that in the real world our position towards singular ideologies enforced on pain of death tends to not be so accommodating.

@Leth:

I think the imperium is more multicultural than what is depicted.

I just don't understand this. If it is depicted a certain way...then why do you think it is more multicultural than that? I just...what's your evidence for declaring it more multicultural then it is depicted?

Hope they continue to do so and bring in more cultural features and female models. It really is understated how much it means to see features similar to yours in a bunch of places

Agreed completely, I really like this sentiment too, its why I feel so disappointed about the lack of anything LGBT related at all in the Imperium and yet then claiming it to be an egalitarian body. It clearly isn't egalitarian or liberal at all.

Honestly for the declarations of 'there are no good guys' there seem to be a lot of efforts to claim the Imperium is a 'good guy'.

Besides 'just' worshiping the Emperor isn't a small thing. If someone came and told you that everyone has to convert to Christianity right now or die would it be a 'small thing'? Of course not, the Imperium invades and compels the single most important part of any existence; your beliefs and ideals. The Imperium demands conversion to a singular ideology and the extermination of anything which does not conform to this ideology.

Belief is not always the most important thing to everyone - often people are far more concerned with simply living.

Its not that simple - its more akin to the Roman Empire where the Emperor as supreme deity is overlaid onto any existing structure.

So in current monotheistic religions - its a name change and details of the worship and tenants of faith. Monotheistic religions usually have a supreme God / goddess who can be co-opted. Most religions change and adapt to changing worlds and situations.

The Imperium has a very crude and simplistic cultural diversity among humans. Each World tends to have one culture and that's it, as opposed to the real Earth which, despite being one planet, sees thousands of very diverse cultures emerging on it.

That's the problem when you try to depict a million world empire - its easier to say - yeah this is the Aztec planet, this is the Viking planet etc etc. When authors actually delve into worlds they can be much more interesting but they usually don' because that's not what they have been asked to do for the most part.

its why I feel so disappointed about the lack of anything LGBT related at all in the Imperium

That's more an issue with the company that owns it not wanting to cause any controversy and the model making aspect being increasingly reluctant to commission female models sadly.

It is (to me at least) irritating that some of the more recent Codex fluff has been going against the more interesting and diverse elements of that shown in BL and other official sources - but I honestly think that GW feels that its market was always and remains predominately white males (teenage to elderly) who like playing toy soldiers and are reluctant to have anything other than what they think would appeal to them,

The Imperium is mulit-cultural and liberal only in the same way as the Roman and British empires was - they have vast swathes of land and people that have hugely different cultures and seldom intervene in details such as marriage, sexual orientation etc unless it directly intervenes with the few "universal" laws they uphold. If it does - they crush anything that does not conform. Otherwise they simply don't care and often new cultural ideas and styles become vogue in the heart of Imperial power.

Its one of the reasons that early Christianity had such problems - it would not compromise.

Oddly enough you mention the LGBT thing. Well in the fluff you see it quite often, it's just not treated as anything special. "Hey this noble likes dudes" and that is literally the end of it, and it only comes up if it is relevant to the conversation. It is not scandalous or something to raise an eyebrow at because it is considered par for the course and not worry bringing up out of context. Reminds me of Mass Effect 3 where Cortez says "my husband died at X planet" and shep doesnt even flinch, they don't make it some major plot point or applaud him for being gay. It only came up because he mentioned his spouse dying otherwise you wouldn't know.

As to how it is depicted I meant in the model range. Most of the range is almost exclusively Caucasian and this translates to the depictions in the art. However I understand the difficulty of adding this into the range, it's hard to get diversity within diversity on a limited sprue. Unless you come out with dedicated diversity packs it's going to seem very stereotypical and limited. I do wish more quality third party artists did this sort of thing but I recognize the perceived limited market.

 Leth wrote:
Oddly enough you mention the LGBT thing. Well in the fluff you see it quite often, it's just not treated as anything special. "Hey is noble likes dudes" and that is literally the end of it. It is not scandalous or something to raise an eyebrow at because it is considered par for the course. Reminds me of Mass Effect 3 where Cortez says "my husband died at X planet" and shep doesnt even flinch, they don't make it some major plot point or applaud him for being gay..

I always thought that was a more adult and better way - its not anything unusual or even particularly interesting - its just normal - isn't that how it should be depictured.

The two women universally thought to be lesbian in Cain's unit are not singled out with Cain just mentioning that they are not interested in men - he has no interest in their relationship - although arguably he should in the aspect of a trooper being involved with her superior - but then he is probably happy that he is not having to deal with the pregnancy issues that have arisen elsewhere in the mixed sex unit.

There should not be a need to make an issue of how is sleeping with whom in the same way as there should be good and bad (and shades of grey) LGBT people - because they are just people.

 Pendix wrote:
Ok, setting aside the other stuff going on here, I think the 'Imperium is not Multicultural' argument has some legs.

The trick is, 'mono-cultural'/'multicultural' are descriptions of societies, and the Imperium is not really a society (at least; in the traditional sense). It's more a geopolitical entity*, that is made up of a large number of smaller distinct societies (be they the interplanetary 'Adepta' societies, or the societies of individual worlds).

Those myriad societies though, I would argue, are almost all 'mono-cultural' and not 'multicultural'.

Consider, a typical member of a modern day 'Multicultural' society is going to experience that multiculturalism in the form of foods from different cultures, regularly seeing art or media from cultures not their own, regularly seeing/interacting with practitioners of said alternative cultures, etc. However for a typical member of most Imperial Societies, they are only ever going to be dealing with the culture of their own world (or own 'Adepta'), which is likely global (given the characterisation of most Imperial Worlds as 'Worlds of Hats'). Even the worlds with less repressive-state controlled governments are not going to be awash in the people/food/media/ideas of other worlds, due to the generally isolating nature of Imperial space travel/traffic.

So, no, the 'Imperium' is not multicultural, it may contain a huge & diverse number of cultures, but that is not the same thing.

*am I using that right?

Thank the Emperor for this post. I was about to give up on this thread untill I read this. I've currently moved away from my usual habitat and don't have my books on hand so the following references will be largely unspecific, but at least I have some information to provide. The following will largely be based on the following materials:
Necromunda salvation, junktion and core rulebook.
DH 1st and 2nd Ed
Comissar Cain series
Eisenhorn series
Ravenor series
Enforcer Shria Calpurcia series
Scourge the heretic (by Sandy Mitchell)
The last chancers (13th penal legion)
Let the galaxy burn (compilation of 38short stories)
Codex Catachan (3d ed)

Regarding culture mix in the Imperium:
No one can deny the diffrences between all the worlds in the Imperium. The most obvious cultural diffrences fall between vanilla humans, the astartes worlds, the mechanicus worlds and the abhuman worlds. No one can argue the diffrence between for example the culture of Ogryns to those of the Astartes, both technically citizens of the Imperium.
As regard to human-human worlds cultural exchanges we have evidence of it being common.
1 example is from the first Shria Calpurcia novel "Enforcer" (I think, correct me if I'm wrong). The main character goes through the procedure of stimulating her Immune system against known diseases on the world to be visited. This is relevant because of course such practice needs to be massed due to the diffrences in bacteria and viruses on diffrent worlds. Upon this world she's taught that conversations are not as important as where you walk during them. For example, walking to a window means complentation, walking to a done means denial and walking to a garden or other shrubbery means acceptance. Clearly a cultural diffrence from what she's used to, since it confuses her greatly. They mention how it's a practice that takes outsiders quite some time to grasp usually.
2 example is from one of Cains many Space battles. He mentions holo movies repeatedly and how romanticised they are compared to the real deal. He mentions a particular movie where the ships fight at point blank range and how popular theese movies are on several worlds.
3 is from Eisenhorn where he mentions how his student, Ravenor, would produce written works that would be of huge interplanitary popularity
4 is from let the galaxy burn where we follow a doctors quest to cure a plauge. He is very surprised and diffrences in medical practice within the Imperium.
5 is from the DH books where pilgrims are mentioned to sometimes simply be individuals who wish to travel and see more of the Imperium, and the church's pilgrimages is a good way, being sponsored and all.
6 and perhaps the best argument is also from the Cain series. In many of the books travel guides are mentioned for the Imperium citizens who doesn't want to spend to much and yet see more of the Imperium. From this it's clear that travelling for leisure for the Imperiums middle class is not as restricted as one might expect.
So now we have covered world to world diffrences and cultural exchange in conversation, medicine, movies, books and travelling. Since it's clear that there is a diffrence in culture between various planets this goes to prove that said planets also have cultural exchanges, hence the term multicultural being prominent.

Regarding the economics of the Imperium:
To spread media someone must stand to gain from it. In 40k corporations are largely unheard of but the economical heavyweights are still around as seen in the nobility. We know traders are a huge deal, both the rouge trader variant and their regular countrtparts and hence we know that profit made from economic gain easily justifies cultural products that can be sold. In DH 1ed we get a clear look on the currency used in the calixis sector (called thrones). In Ravenor diffrent accounts are often mentioned as Ravenor use them to bribe/buy his way to various ends. In one scenen bounty Hunter Nayle buss information from a woman using coins, hence we can point on various currencies being used by the Imperiums citizens. This is relevant because it highlights the cultural diffrences of diffrent worlds. I personally find it baffling that there isn't a "ordo economics" in the Inquisition that's tasked with safeholding the Imperiums financial intrests (in the form of various reasources)

Regarding social policies of the Imperium:
The Imperium has a codex of law that's enforced by the adeptus arbites. All governments of the Imperium (with some exceptions) need to follow theese laws, or they will find themselves at odds with the arbites and possibly the Inquisition. I'd expand on this further if I had my books.

Regarding marriage in the Imperium:
Marriage is a sanctified practice by the ecclisiarchy and thus by the Imperium as a whole. In Scourge the heretic the 15 or so years old assasin mentions how she doesn't know much about intercourse but that it's apparently an acceptable practice if you're married through the church. Marriage plays a huge role in the ruling elites power plays, as seen in the novel lasgun wedding.

Regarding the Imperiums colaboration with xenos:
We have several cases of this happening despite it being against the law. A few races are allowed to exist because they don't pose a threat or because the Imperium can benefit from them. Examples are the Hrud and the Jokkaero.
There's numerous examples of orcs and kroot being hired as mercenaries.
In Eisenhorn a new type of crops of xenos origin is the new best thing on the market. Eisenhorn makes a mental note to deal with it but as I recall he never actually does so.
Many worlds enjoy somewhat friendly relations with the Tau. Comissar Cain is commonly found negotiating for peace rather then war.

Conclusion:
The Imperium is multicultural. Xenos are supposed to be eradicated but the opposite is sometimes the case. This took forever to write.

Good post

Many worlds enjoy somewhat friendly relations with the Tau. Comissar Cain is commonly found negotiating for peace rather then war.

Interestingly he has more issues dealing with human collaborators (even young pretty ones) than Xenos. He is a pragmatic but also a true believer in the God-Emperor as is Amberley.

Whilst planets and officials do deal with the Xenos - they usually suffer sanction because of it, unless under the auspices of a higher authority - ie the Inquisition.

Imperial Marriages between nobles are often arranged by a specialist branch of the Adepta Sororitas

The assassin in Scourge the Heretic was brought up by redemptionists who are hard line even by Imperial standards and not that reflective of your average Imperial citizen.

@Mr Morden:

Belief is not always the most important thing to everyone - often people are far more concerned with simply living.

It is important enough that millions have died for it.

Besides now you're just making the argument that people will accept repression because they fear for their lives, how does that diminish how horrific it is to force such a thing upon them?

It doesn't actually change anything of what I said.

Its not that simple - its more akin to the Roman Empire where the Emperor as supreme deity is overlaid onto any existing structure.

And like all Empires which practiced religious persecution the Roman Empire murdered and oppressed groups in order to force their compliance through fear. Surely you aren't saying this is a good thing?

I'm just not quite sure what your point is, none of this changes that the Imperium horribly oppresses and compels obedience through threat of death against any who desires to believe (whether religious or ideological since atheists and agnostics would be killed to) something different. Surely you aren't defending that as liberal or good?

That's the problem when you try to depict a million world empire - its easier to say - yeah this is the Aztec planet, this is the Viking planet etc etc. When authors actually delve into worlds they can be much more interesting but they usually don' because that's not what they have been asked to do for the most part.

That is why it is so, for sure, but it doesn't change that it is still so. The Imperium practices generally only one culture on an entire planet, which is way less diverse than what our one tiny world has managed.

The Imperium is mulit-cultural and liberal only in the same way as the Roman and British empires was

But no historian alive today would describe either of those Empires as 'Liberal', 'Multicultural' or 'Inclusive'. Indeed in history an important focus particularly with British colonial mandates and holdings is exactly how extensive, intrusive and complex the influence they had was. It was far from a 'hand's off' rulership method, in modern historical academia no-one would accept a statement like 'The British Empire permitted colonies to go on exactly as they wished save for a few core rules' since its utterly untrue, no Empire in history has ruled over holdings without incredibly changing, altering and shifting the culture, legal system, politics and beliefs of the area.

One simply has to look at the history of the Basotho or Xhosa, or the Kaingang for that.

So comparing the Imperium to the British Empire, or even worse the Roman Empire, just means comparing them to Empires we today see as having had massive effects of changing the cultures they influenced and foisting mores upon them from a top-down approach.

@Leth:

Well in the fluff you see it quite often

Where?

No, seriously, I really want to know, this actually means a lot to me. I've searched and searched and other than references to decadent and disgusting nobles and Dark Eldar the most I've ever found is an implication of lesbianism among side characters.

If you can answer just one question for me please tell me your sources, please, I'd love to know about this 'quite often' LGBT in Warhammer 40k, it would mean a lot to me.

@Nerak:

The Imperium is multicultural. Xenos are supposed to be eradicated but the opposite is sometimes the case.

The Imperium is Human Multicultural, within certain restrictions, and only permits Xenos interaction when it does not have the resources to do otherwise. Applauding that as being progressive would be like applauding a murderer for not killing a person because they ran out of time to do it in.

Honestly what's the obsession with arguing that the Imperium is morally good? I thought the premise of the universe was that it wasn't.

Hmm I never said the Imperium was good?

The Imperium is Human Multicultural, within certain restrictions, and only permits Xenos interaction when it does not have the resources to do otherwise

Which is what I said - so we agree?

The argument whether the Imperium is good or bad is entirely unrelated and depends if you are arguing from our viewpoint or theirs.

And like all Empires which practiced religious persecution the Roman Empire murdered and oppressed groups in order to force their compliance through fear. Surely you aren't saying this is a good thing?

I'm just not quite sure what your point is, none of this changes that the Imperium horribly oppresses and compels obedience through threat of death against any who desires to believe (whether religious or ideological since atheists and agnostics would be killed to) something different. Surely you aren't defending that as liberal or good?

I never mentioned good or bad - I said thats what Empires did and do now - From my reading of the Roman Empire - Religious cults were normally only opressed if they werepoltical active against the Empire and /or refused to acknowledge official deities - if you simply towed the line or added the Roman pantheon to your own / changed the names - they did not care what the locals did - in some cases they would even adpot them and bring them back to the centre of power. Even the persecution of Christinaity was ad hoc and usually done for poltical reasons - lest find a scapegoat - hey there this is weird mnior cult thats being a pain - lets blame them for X and Y..

Besides now you're just making the argument that people will accept repression because they fear for their lives, how does that diminish how horrific it is to force such a thing upon them?

No I am saying that millions have died for religion adn faith and billions have not - not because they were in fear but also because in many cases they did not care - look at modern day - most of the West (by that I mean any civilised nation) simpy don't unsderstand ISIS because they do have that kind of absolute and unbending Faith - misguided, homicidel faith but there it is - how many of us on this froum would die rather than Worship the Emperor if that was the choice?

I wouldn't.

Not everyone has or indeed needs an exlcusive religious Faith. You can be a good moral individual and not have it,

@Mr Morden:

Hmm I never said the Imperium was good?

Apologies, I must have misunderstood what you were saying then.

Which is what I said

Oh, apologies, I though you were calling the Imperium Liberal and Inclusive. Never mind then.

From my reading of the Roman Empire

To be clear the Roman Empire is far, far, FAR more benevolent than the Imperium is. There has never in history, thank goodness, been a regime as oppressive and cruel as the Imperium.

That being said I still don't grasp what your point is; yes Romans (like all cultures) adapted religion and ideology as they went, but it also remains a fact that they persecuted and killed people based on religion and ideology as well, nothing changes this.

religion adn faith

It doesn't need to be religion or faith it can be ideologies too. For example the Imperium would kill anyone arguing for an accountable government, a representative system or a rational system of governance to replace the Emperor and High Lords.

If I recall correctly one of the Space Marine Codexes even has a fluff blurb about a force of Marines wiping our rebels on a planet where the dangerous notions of 'democracy' had taken root.

Beliefs need not be only religious, indeed ideological beliefs can cause as much harm, and good, as religious ones.

look at modern day - most of the West (by that I mean any civilised nation) simpy don't unsderstand ISIS because they do have that kind of absolute and unbending Faith

I'd rather avoid being drawn into this conversation on this forum so I won't go further than saying that that is a bit of an oversimplification of a far more complicated situation.

Not everyone has or indeed needs an exlcusive religious Faith. You can be a good moral individual and not have it

Completely agree...but I don't understand what point you're making by bringing it up? After all an atheist or agnostic are as likely to be killed by the Imperium as a Hindu, Satanist, Muslim or Christian.

None of this changes that the Imperium brutally and oppressively compels conformity to their state-sanctioned ideology and religion on pain of death. In the Imperium you can't even choose not to have a faith because the Imperium already has an exclusive faith and if you are not part of it then they will kill you.

 Anemone wrote:


None of this changes that the Imperium brutally and oppressively compels conformity to their state-sanctioned ideology and religion on pain of death. In the Imperium you can't even choose not to have a faith because the Imperium already has an exclusive faith and if you are not part of it then they will kill you.

That's not quite true. Many space marine chapters (in fact pretty much all first founding ones) are noted for not following the Imperial Creed in seeing the Emperor as a God, with most that worship him being the exception to the rule. Many of them retain their homeworld culture's beliefs and superstitions with only those that are extremely deviant or under investigation by the Inquisition being put under question.

Likewise, the Adeptus Mechanicus is another example of the Imperium not being as black and white as you assume it to be, since many amongst the tech-priests don't see the Emperor as the Omnissiah and the Cult Mechanicus is a distinct entity from that of the Ecclesiarchy. Hell, there was the Moirae schism where the founding of the Sons of Medusa chapter was a result of believers on the other side being allowed to leave the Iron Hands and form their own chapter, so clearly there's some lee-way.

I said the Imperium was as liberal as two large and brutal human empire in the past - - They allowed considerable cultural and religious freedoms, mainly because they didn’t care and as long as neither interfered with tax collecting and general exploitation.

The Imperium of Man is similar, but more hard line on the religious front - but then it has cause to be - worship of Chaos does actually bring Daemons and the like, witches are real etc etc. Thats not something our world has to worry about.

I always thought that the point of the Imperium was that much of it is cruel and oppressive but that it has to be to survive, context is important. It is a bloated and terrible regime but within its confines humanity survives and prospers. Depending on the world and many are shown to be somewhat darker versions of our own - but certainly not Orwellian or even as bad as ISIS - there are ones that are this or worse but not all.

For example the Imperium would kill anyone arguing for an accountable government, a representative system or a rational system of governance to replace the Emperor and High Lords

.

For their own planet - you can have an elected and accountable governor - just that he or she has to report ot the Imperium of Man - who protect it from the evils of the universe - its a somewhat darker version of those in Traveller, Fading Suns, Dune etc etc - a sci-fi trope.

Yes the Imperium as whole tends to be Faithful and would believe that to overthrow the Emperor is to try to overthrow God. One could argue quite well that the High Lords represent the Imperium already? The Adeptus Mechanicum is arguably a Meritocracy - well sort of.

If I recall correctly one of the Space Marine Codexes even has a fluff blurb about a force of Marines wiping our rebels on a planet where the dangerous notions of 'democracy' had taken root. Beliefs need not be only religious, indeed ideological beliefs can cause as much harm, and good, as religious ones.

Have to cite the source as don't recall it - democracy is shown to exist and work fine within the Imperium on a planetary scale at least.

None of this changes that the Imperium brutally and oppressively compels conformity to their state-sanctioned ideology and religion on pain of death. In the Imperium you can't even choose not to have a faith because the Imperium already has an exclusive faith and if you are not part of it then they will kill you.

Yes and no - Yes if you stand up and confront the Church you will be punished - killing may not be immediate depending on your actions - don't go to Church - penance, lashes etc.

You can choose not to believe in Him but unless you speak of your belief out loud, it’s unlikely to matter - pay your taxes and tithes, recite the words, get on with your life - you can even maintain your old shrines, temples etc.

Its hard for me to understand true Faith but I have friends who have it. It’s interesting……
What complicates the whole thing is that the Emperor as a God is palpably real but he is not alone......If God comes round and throws stones at the windows of Atheists how do you remain an atheist (paraphrasing Pratchet)

To sum up – we both agree that the Imperium of Man is a brutal regime that allows cultural differences to flourish within certain boundaries – and consequently can be said to be multicultural as the OP suggests.
However it would be hard to describe it as a force for good, at best it’s simply how the human race survives – by repression, torture, genocide and worse.

Its difficult to make any judgment on anyone who lives in such a universe. Is what they do justified, maybe, likely not but its what they think they have to do and in universe there is no currently viable alternative.

Two of my favourite 40k characters – Cain and Amberely are basically decent individuals, rational, considered, believers in the Emperor and capable of loving relationships. They would not blink at burning a heretic or a Xenos collaborator – mainly because they know where it leads. By our standards they are fanatics, by the Imperiums they are bleeding heart liberals.

Even races like the Eldar are not really utopian – they have a strict and regulated cultural imperative and structure – break the rules not only can you be expelled but you can lose your soul and those of everyone you know and love.
If you want Utopian you need to live in the Culture.

End ramble!!!