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Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

So I'm working on a Nurgle Daemonkin FanDex, and I'm struggling to figure out what the Blood Tithe equivalent could be. Any advice?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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Auspicious Daemonic Herald





Epidemius's tally
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




Agreed. Wounds done is appropraite, but since you should be getting a lot, lot more, you should be setting your 'prices' much higher (multiples of 7?)

Or you could essentially make the tally an army-wide special rule with a few tweaks to price levels and rewards.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/21 07:18:42


Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
 
   
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Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

 CrownAxe wrote:
Epidemius's tally

Yep, pretty much this

As a side note, you should avoid using the "Tally" to summon any Nurgle daemons. The Blood Tithe has this because Khorne has no Psykers. Nurgle can have plenty of Psykers, so the Tally should stick to unit bonuses. Or maybe even make on of the bonuses to harness WC on 3+ when summoning Nurgle Daemons

   
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Regular Dakkanaut




Not familiar with nurgle demons but some examples of a reward could be

Putrid rot- all Nurgle units gain poison 4+, any model that already has poison gains +1 to that poison.

Aura of Rust- all Nurgle models glance armor on 6's

Debilitating stench- all enemy models within 6 inches of a nurgle unit suffers -1 toughness.

Just a couple low-mid level ones of the top of my head.
   
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Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Yes, any abilities that give/augment Poison or FNP are very Nurgley indeed.

   
Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets






@Vilehydra you have some good ideas.

Some sort of "wounds done", or "wounds done via the poison rule" might work for the tally trigger. I'd avoid stat buffs on the tally benefits, instead opting for debuffs (-1 BS vs a unit or something), support for special rules (+1 to FNP or IWND rolls), and adding more versatility (turn poisoned weapons into haywire? Vilehydra's aura of rust is sort of the same idea). Making your daemons/marines stronger or shootier could represent Nurgle's blessing, but the decay god's blessing should decay enemy lungs where his daemons breathe, not make his chosen traitor marines better at aiming. It just makes more sense thematically IMHO.

Some way to turn warp charges into tally marks wold be cool. Maybe a nurglite sorcerer coven formation?

40k drinking game: take a shot everytime a book references Skitarii using transports.
 
   
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Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





I'd suggest taking a look at nurgle stuff from AoS for some idea's, they've been pretty decent.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Okay, here's what I got so far.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




@JNAProductions

There are way to many options for Nurgle's tally. Options are forms of indirect power, by giving a player incredibly efficient and granular options your giving them a lot of indirect power.

I'd recommend keeping it at 7 unique options (7 is Nurgle's number right) that still scale the same way that bloodtithe does. (1 Bloodtithe being a minimal buff, 8 being a frakking Greater Deamon) but with wounds instead of unit kills.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Hrm... Alright, let me go back to the drawing board.

Edit: There are now 7 options.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/21 23:22:44


Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 JNAProductions wrote:
Hrm... Alright, let me go back to the drawing board.

Edit: There are now 7 options.


Your changes to the normal boon table are interesting. Some of the options don't scream "Nurgle" to me (mostly the movement ones), but I think something like this would be a reasonable alternative to the chaos boon system in general.

Vessels of Nurgle: So this makes possessed sort of like chaos Wulfen then? That's an interesting approach that potentially gives them a better niche as buffers/debuffers rather than just another melee unit. I'm not sure I care for the execution as you have it though. A 6 result, which is statistically likely to come up once a game, basically causes you to automatically win every combat you're in until your next turn (except perhaps against invul save-centric deathstars). There's no real counter-play to this, it makes for a feelbad turn for enemy assault armies who now don't get to do the thing their army excels at because they pretty much auto-lose against you for that turn, and pretty much destroys any unit your opponent was unlucky enough to have in assault range on the turn this kicked in. If you're anywhere near an MC when this kicks in, it is more likely to kill a 3 Wound MC than not.

"Oh look, I rolled a 6 while I was near you. We can keep playing if you want, but the game's pretty much over now."

I'm not clear on how you'd roll a 7, but that would make it even nastier.

Even ignoring the 6 result, the other results are pretty nasty. The 1-3 result's buffs are pretty reasonable, but a plague-bearer-heavy army will kind of go "meh" when this is rolled. Also, it could get really annoying to sit through a Nurgle player resolving all those 1d6 auto-hits against you. That last part actually synergizes well with Nurgle's tarpit-heavy playstyle, but it doesn't seem like much fun to be on the receiving end of. The 4-5 result is pretty potent to the point of maybe possibly pushing it, and the hits on enemy units reads as, "Remove d6 not-marines in every unit near these guys." Which again, isn't necessarily much fun to be on the receiving end of.

Power level aside, this stands to give a bunch of aura buffs to units that are already possibly getting lots of (very similar) army-wide buffs from Nurgle's Tally. As a result, you risk having the Vessels of Nurgle effects become redundant/too good/a pain to keep track of and sit through.

Sorry, man. I don't mean to be too harsh, but I'd seriously consider nerfing Vessels of Nurgle. A lot. What I really like about the rule is that it gives you a chance to make possessed more thematically Nurgly and to give them a better defined army role. So with that in mind, maybe change it to something like this?

1-2: -1 Toughness for all enemy units within 6".
3-4: Friendlies within 6" gain Poison 4+ or improve their Poison by 1.
5-6: Friendlies within 6" gain +1 Toughness

Something along those lines. They all help with assault in various but unpredictable ways. I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to making it a player choice instead of a random roll either . That makes it slightly more powerful, but it also eliminates (yet another) random roll that tends to bog down the game.

Also, as you have it, would different rolls from multiple possessed units stack on allies and/or each other? For instance, if two possessed units rolled a 7+ result, would they give themselves a +2 Toughness and each other an additional +1?

Tally of Nurgle: This seems pretty reasonable overall. I'm not sure how many wounds a nurgle army typically inflicts in a turn (I tend to kite them and shoot them to death when I can), but I'm guessing that those higher results are pretty difficult to pull off. Which is good. The +1 Wound option seems potentially problematic though. Suppose you pop the +1 W option and increase your daemon prince's wounds to, for argument's sake, 5. He then proceeds to lose 4 wounds in your own assault phase. Because the benefits only last for one turn, he would lose the +1 W benefit. So does this mean that he would lose that extra wound and abruptly die? Or is the extra wound considered to be lost before the "base" wounds? Similarly, if a plague bearer suffers a single wound that turn, does the plague bearer die at the end of the turn when the +1W goes away?

Also, do these benefits last one game turn or one player turn (until the end of your own assault phase, basically)?



Overall, it looks mostly solid and very fluffy. I like the new, fluffy options you've added in. A couple random other nitpicks:
* No Typhus? I know KDK excluded Kharne for some reason, but that never made sense either.
* You've buffed zombies to have 2 ccw which they don't normally have. This is probably an unnecessary buff, especially as they're already both cheap and good.
* Zombies are actually better than cultists (even with only 1ccw) because cultists are meant to tarpit rather than kill. Being fearless and having FNP makes them significantly better at this than low-leadership cultists that will only rarely get any kind of armor save. Despite this, you have zombies costed lower than the significantly less useful cultists. I realize you gave the cultists marks of Nurgle, but FNP is probably better in more situations, and Fearless is much better for their purposes than Lead Through Fear.
*Am I correct in understanding that a cultist unit can take two characters at the same time?
* You list cultists as automatically having an aspiring champion. Is this meant to be the same sort of aspiring champion you can get in a marine unit? That's a cool and fluffy option, but this aspiring champion seems to have the statline of a single cultist, and it would be nice to have the option to NOT take a marine in a cultist unit. unless this is a regular joe cultist with a name similarity or a copy+paste error.
* The naming convention of "champion ascendant" and "aspiring champion" is mildly confusing.





And if I may toss my two thrones in, the (probably overly complicated) version of a Nurgle Blood Tithe equivalent that I like the idea of is something like this:

*Start the game with 1 infection token +1 more for various modifiers (like formation bonuses, certain characters (dark apostles?), etc.
*After your opponent deploys, immediately distribute the infection tokens among their non-vehicle units. This can include units still in reserves.
*At the start of each of your turns, any infected units must make a Toughness test (using the unit majority Toughness) for each infection counter they have.
*For each test a given unit fails, inflict a wound on a model of your opponent's choice (no saves of any kind allowed) in that unit AND place an additional infection token on any enemy unit on the table.
*If an infected unit is completely destroyed, immediately redistribute their infection tokens. (Or maybe have the tokens be lost as a form of counterplay? Not sure on this.)

So you basically get the sense that the disease is slowly spreading. Assuming you start with a low number of infection tokens (like.... 2 or 3), your opponent will only be taking 1 or 2 wounds a turn at first, but the effects increase exponentially as you get more and more infection tokens on the table. Couple this with special weapons or formation rules that let you place more infection tokens throughout the game (like when you kill an enemy character or something), and that can add up pretty fast. The idea is to have a sense of growing, contagious infection in the same way that Khorne's Blood Tithe gives a sense of mad bloodshed regardless of friend and foe.

That rule is probably complicated enough as it is, but you could then add on the following if you really wanted to.

* The disease grows more powerful as Nurgle's blessings proliferate. For every 7 infection tokens on the table, select one of the following options. Each option may be taken any number of times and stacks with itself.
-Bleary Eyed: All infected enemy units suffer -1 WS and BS (minimum 1)
-Weak Bodied: All infected enemy reduce their normal movement speed by 1" (to a minimum of 1"). So an enemy infantry model with -2" to his movement that rolls a 5 on his difficult terrain test would only be able to move 4".
-Feverish Delirium: All infected enemy units reduce their leadership by 1 (minimum 2).

So on top of the sense of a spreading contagion, you'd have the sense that the disease was growing worse and more potent. Plus, this would give you some motivation to spread your infection tokens around (very fluffy) rather than concentrating them in one place to kill a problem unit.

EDIT: Note that my proposed "Snot Tithe" would be instead of the Tally of Nurgle rule rather than in addition to it. Having both simply seems too complicated. I like the Tally of Nurgle thing, but I feel that my proposed suggestion mimics the concept of a spreading disease better while the standard tally thing, while very cool, has more of a Khornate feel.


This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/09/22 04:00:33



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




I like the newer versions of Nurgle's Tally, Lot of scary buffs/debuffs right there. Only point is that most Nurgle demons already have stealth or shrouded (forget which one). May seem redundant, otherwise I do like it.
   
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A few things:

2 of the tally benefits affect "enemies within 7". As much as I understand your dedication to lord Nurgle's holy number, it can be a lot easier to just make that 6", as most people have that marked on their ruler. Also, is that "within X" of any friendly unit? Any unit from the codex? Choose a unit?

Vilehydra is right, daemon of Nurgle already have shrouded. Maybe give FNP equal to cover save, with a -1 if it didn't already have FNP? That prevents go to ground shenanigans but makes ruins prime hiding spots.

As you can see, I'm not a codex writer.

40k drinking game: take a shot everytime a book references Skitarii using transports.
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Giving Nurgle themed armies bonus movement is not Nurgle themed at all. That's the domain of Slaanesh and to a lesser extent Khorne. Nurgle armies should move slowly (and purposefully).

The way to generate power isn't by dealing wounds at all - that's Khornes thing. Nurgle is about surviving against the odds, regardless of what's thrown at you. They should generate points by making FNP rolls. They should also generate points when a unit is shot at/assaulted and they take no casualties. And perhaps, if that's not enough to generate points they should get bonus points based on the game turn if they're still at full strength (and have at least 7 models). If you ignore them they'll slowly accrue points at an escalating level. If you shoot them and their toughness/armour saves them all you get points. If you force FNP's (which most units will have) and they pass them they gain points. Essentially to stop them you have to blow a unit off the table. If you don't they just get stronger and stronger until you cant remove them anymore). You have to balance destroying units vs weakening them enough to remove their auto-points. If you get it wrong and your turn is ineffective then you reward them as well. It should make dealing with a NDK army a pain in the butt. As an extra possibility you can include wounds done through poison damage but I'd make that a slow burn gain. A nice top-up for assault-based units but not the main generator.

Abilities gained should be boosting FNP, granting stealth/shrouded for anything that doesn't have it, extra poison, bonus wounds, leadership reductions and other debilitating debuffs (for the enemy) that sort of thing. I'd also add in some aura's to units so they can slowly kill in CC, like auto hits at S2 AP- if in base contact with a NDK model, increasing to S3 AP6, S4 AP5 etc on each successive combat round as the rot starts to strike at their foes.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




My suggestion as a gift/tithe effect:

Eruption of disease (EoD)
All characters with Daemon of Nurgle that kills an opponent in the assault phase places a 3" marker over the killed model. All non-Nurgle models under the marker are hit by an poisoned 4+ attack with the same AP as the killed models armor save.

EoD should be expensive, both because it represent a direct intervention from Grandfather Nurgle himself and because it could be devastating. But fitting for Nurgle.

The infection markers is a very good idea.
   
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