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Reading the rulebook, it says under Disembarkation Restrictions "After disembarking... they cannot declare a charge in their subsequent assault phase." However, on the powers listed, it says "Unless locked in combat, these units can charge in the same turn."
I know that specific rules trump general rules, so I just wanted clarification; if I have a unit get out of a non-assault vehicle in their movement phase, and swap them in the psychic phase, can they assault in the assault phase? I'm thinking yes, but I can see why not. Can anyone weigh in, or has there been an official answer?

No official answer, but the general rule is no.

Electrodisplacement's rules don't blanket-remove all restrictions on charging; they're just there to inform you that despite the fact you've had an 'extra move', you can still charge.

A lot of 'extra moves' - such as deep strike, running, etc - prohibit you charging. I'm not sure if either power places any of the models 'following the rules for deep strike', but if so, noting that the model can still charge is a sensible clarification.

Look at it this way for an example: Assault Vehicle says you may assault after disembarking (normally prohibited). But the rules also say you may not assault the turn you arrive from reserves. Being in an assault vehicle gets around the fact you just got out of a tank, but the prohibition due to coming onto the board that turn would still apply.

RAW is very clearly yes.

The blessing says, "UNLESS LOCKED IN CLOSE COMBAT, these units can charge in the same turn."

There is only one qualifier that prevents the blessed unit (and the Pskyer's unit) from charging. The blessing does not say unless infiltrating, deep striking, changing flight modes, disembarking, or some other general rule prevents charging. It says, "UNLESS LOCKED IN CLOSE COMBAT." Look at the table and see whether your unit is locked in close combat. If not, the blessed unit "can charge in the same turn." Almost like magic . . .

All blessings either provide a special rule to the target unit or alter the application of the general rules in some specific manner. Electrodisplacement/Soulswitch alters the application of the general rules in a specific manner.

All units must follow the general rules regarding when units can charge unless they are a target of a blessing or possess a special rule that alters the general rules. Then the unit must follow the specific rule specified in the description of the power. Seems simple!

In fact, for the blessing to operate as suggested above the entire sentence "Unless locked in close combat, these units can charge in the same turn" could have been omitted. Then the power would operate precisely as described above.

Also, the displacement of units does not operate as deep strike. It, too, specifies a unique method for exchanging the position of two units.

Look at it this way: what if the entire spell description was "Unless locked in close combat, the unit can charge this turn"; would there then be any question that the blessing was a very specific alteration of the general rules to specifically allow that unit to charge this turn?

OK, so an assault vehicle allows a unit to charge after disemabrking? Even if they have arrived from Reserve? OR fired rapid fire weapons?

You are creating an exhaustive set of conditions when none exists.

No...

An assault vehicle provides a specific rule that affects the vehicle.... not the unit within. An assault vehicle is a type of vehicle.

The unit (whether embarked or not) still follows the general rules affecting the unit.

Following the specific language of the blessing we are discussing eliminates exhaustive conditions as there is only a single qualifier as to whether "these units can charge in the same turn." The sole condition is "unless locked in combat." To attempt to alter this plain language is what creates confusion.

Just do the mental exercises I suggested: How would the power operate if it did not contain that single sentence? And, how would the power operate if it contained only that sentence?

It is a very easy qualifier to understand: "unless locked in combat" actually means unless locked in combat. If this qualifier is met then "these units can charge in the same turn" means these units can charge in the same turn (that the power is successfully cast.)

Perhaps if you can quote the rule in its entirety?

Soulswitch is a blessing that targets a single non-vehicle unit within 24". Remove all models in the target unit except one, then swap the position of the Psyker with that model. Then, set up all models from the Psyker's unit (if any) within 6" and unit coherency of the Pskyer, and set up all remaining models from the swapped model's unit within 6" and unit coherency of that model.

If either unit was locked in combat, the displaced unit is now locked in combat with that enemy - models cannot otherwise be placed within 1" of an enemy model. If either unit was Swooping, they are now Gliding.

Unless locked in combat, these units can charge in the same turn.

Erm, can you perhaps reread the Assault Vehicle rule? It has a specific effect purely on the models disembarking from it. Not the vehicel.

It allosw them to assault. It doesnt provide any restrictions.

So, by your "logic", they can assault having arrived from reserves. Or if they ran. Or fired a rapid fire or heavy weapon.

So, be consistent. You either agree Assautl Vehicle removes ALL restricitons on assaulting, or you may not assault in the situation you posit here. One or the other, you dont get to pick and choose.

I would have to disagree with lord thanatos that the power wipes out all other restrictions on charging.

Are you saying that if I swap with my immobile artillery, the artillery can now charge? Strictly reading that power I could, even though I am immobile since I was not in combat at the beginning of the turn.

Sure, I will reread the assault vehicle rule: (p88 BRB) in its own box under the heading Assault Vehicle it reads, "Passengers disembarking from Access Points on a vehicle with this special rule can charge on the turn they do so (even on a turn that the vehicle was destroyed) unless the vehicle arrived from Reserve that turn."

Why do people constantly try to twist clear language?

The psyhic power Electrodisplacement/Soulswitch affects whether a unit may assault. Therefore, any general rule impacting whether a unit "can charge" is modified by the specific language of the psychic power. That language is clear since the only qualifier is "Unless locked in close combat."

So I am being consistent (contrary to the assertion of the last poster) when I posit that you read the language of both rules and follow the plain language of each rule. Assault vehicles - according to the plain language of the special rule - allows units to charge "on the turn (they disembark) . . . unless the vehicle arrived from Reserve that turn." Soulswitch reads, "UNLESS LOCKED IN CLOSE COMBAT, these units can charge in the same turn."

I think there is an argument to be made that running and firing heavy weapons (without being relentless) would prevent the intended charge. Although I think each argument is tenable. I think the better argument is that once Soulswitch is successfully manifest it immediately enables "these units [to] charge in the same turn." Yet, after the psychic phase ends the unit could engage in a subsequent action that by virtue of that action would disallow a charge (because it happens AFTER the psychic power manifested). In short, at the moment the psychic power is successfully manifested it eliminates all restrictions on charging for those two units "Unless locked in close combat." Full stop. Both units can now charge. Yet, if those units run or fire heavy weapons (without being relentless) they have taken an action that disallows a charge, thereby nullifying the benefit of the psychic power cast earlier in the turn. This argument is a function of the turn sequence and I believe is consistent with the plain language of the rules being discussed.

I think there is no reasonable argument that anything the unit did prior to manifesting Soulswitch prevents these units from charging in the same turn the psychic power is manifested.

Right. There are other restrictions on charging, and all of them need to be eliminated to be able to charge. Otherwise, as nosferatu mentioned, you could charge out of an assault vehicle the turn it came out of reserves and some other silly things.

The power tells you that you can. However, other things create situations where you still can't.

Pg. 64 of the BRB states, "Artillery units cannot charge as long as they include any gun models." Soulswitch will remove this restriction.

Of course, pg. 64 further states that when artillery units are in base contact with charging models, "No wounds can be allocated to the guns. All engaged enemies roll To Hit and To Wound against the crew (even if they are only engaged with guns). Engaged crew models can fight back but the Artillery guns cannot."

If you wish to manifest a blessing on an artillery unit that allows it to charge then RAW allow this. I will concede that RAI probably didn't envision self-propelled artillery.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you cast Soulswitch on the unit that disembarked from any vehicle, even on the turn it arrives from reserves Soulswitch will allow it to charge. That is precisely what RAW says whether you think it is silly or not.

You completely ignored the point that running and firing heavy weapons (without relentless) happens AFTER the power is manifested so that the power was unable to nullify actions taken afterward. I conceded this is debatable. It is not debatable that any restrictions on a unit being able to charge prior to manifesting Soulswitch are removed by Soulswitch. After you wash your hands they are clean; but you can get them dirty again afterwards. Right?

That isn't what the raw says

You lack an explicit allowance to override the restriction on running and charging. You lack an explicit allowance to override arriving from reserves and charging. And o in. You can tell this because the rule lacks such verbiage.

You've made up out of whole cloth an exhaustive list, and twisted the rule to fit your opinion.

 Lord_Thanatos wrote:


Why do people constantly try to twist clear language?

The psyhic power Electrodisplacement/Soulswitch affects whether a unit may assault. Therefore, any general rule impacting whether a unit "can charge" is modified by the specific language of the psychic power. That language is clear since the only qualifier is "Unless locked in close combat."

Perhaps you should be directing that question at yourself. Electrodisplacement/soulswitch does not have affecting whether a unit can assault as its primary ability. In the rule you are swapping the locations of models around, whether or not they were locked in combat. Their comments about assault are in reference to the model swapping aspect - if not locked in combet, that swapping of models around does not prohibit assault. It does not address other factors which may cause assault. It's only referencing assaulting as a result of swapping positions, it's not negating any other restrictions that may have existed such as disembarking from a non-assault vehicle.

If the purpose were to allow assault no matter what, the power would state that any other restrictions prohibiting assault are negated, which is different from what they say. Nosferatu 1001 noted that the wording is very similar to what it says for assault vehicles - you can assault leaving fan assault vehicle, but you can't leave the assault vehicle, fire a rapid fire weapon then assault.. That's the situation you have here. You can reshuffle models with the power, and that reshuffling doesn't keep you from assaulting, but you wouldn't be able to fire a rapid fire weapon or do anything else that prohibits charging and still be able to charge.

 doctortom wrote:

 Lord_Thanatos wrote:


Why do people constantly try to twist clear language?

The psyhic power Electrodisplacement/Soulswitch affects whether a unit may assault. Therefore, any general rule impacting whether a unit "can charge" is modified by the specific language of the psychic power. That language is clear since the only qualifier is "Unless locked in close combat."

Perhaps you should be directing that question at yourself. Electrodisplacement/soulswitch does not have affecting whether a unit can assault as its primary ability. In the rule you are swapping the locations of models around, whether or not they were locked in combat. Their comments about assault are in reference to the model swapping aspect - if not locked in combet, that swapping of models around does not prohibit assault. It does not address other factors which may cause assault. It's only referencing assaulting as a result of swapping positions, it's not negating any other restrictions that may have existed such as disembarking from a non-assault vehicle.

If the purpose were to allow assault no matter what, the power would state that any other restrictions prohibiting assault are negated, which is different from what they say. Nosferatu 1001 noted that the wording is very similar to what it says for assault vehicles - you can assault leaving fan assault vehicle, but you can't leave the assault vehicle, fire a rapid fire weapon then assault.. That's the situation you have here. You can reshuffle models with the power, and that reshuffling doesn't keep you from assaulting, but you wouldn't be able to fire a rapid fire weapon or do anything else that prohibits charging and still be able to charge.

What is a psychic powers primary ability? Where is that in the rules? This concept is made up out of whole cloth... For your interpretation to work you must completely ignore the word "unless." Isn't it more accurate that every single sentence of the power's description is what the power does? Some elements of the power are more useful in certain situations than others, but ALL are part of the power as a whole. Does my opponent get to decide which part of a power is its primary ability? Or do I?

How do you intuit that "the comments about assault are in reference to the model swapping aspect"? Where is that written? I have not added a single word to the spell description nor have I ignored a single word of the spell description. My interpretation gives every word effect. Your interpretation allows each player to decide which words modify which other parts of the spell description instead of following the fact the comma in the middle of the sentence means that one phrase directly modifies the other. If these words were intended to modify a different sentence they would have been printed elsewhere in the description. Should I contemplate where these words would best be placed? That is what your argument does. RAW is giving effect to precisely what is written without regard to what might have been intended since none of us can say with certain what the author intended. Although you seem to believe your interpretation is superior to other interpretations.

I have already conceded that it is entirely plausible to argue that RAW allow these units to assault even if they run or fire heavy weapons. This is debatable. Anything prior to casting the power is affected by the specific language of the power.

The language you suggest (i.e. any other restrictions are negated) is not required to understand that the word unless means . . . "except if." Therefore, "[Except if] locked in close combat, these units can charge in the same turn." Using the definition of "unless" from the Oxford Dictionary all other restrictions are negated. The word "unless" does exactly what your additional language would do.

The wording is not similar AT ALL to the rule for assault vehicles. The rule for assault vehicles I quoted above is specifically modified by the phrase "unless [except if] the vehicle arrived from Reserve that turn." So to make your argument consistent my interpretation must be correct because GW could have easily added further limiting phrases such us "unless the unit arrived from Reserve that turn/disembarked from a vehicle that turn/runs later in the turn/fires heavy weapons later in the turn/deployed via infiltration that turn/etc..." Clearly the Assault Vehicle rule demonstrates that GW attaches limited phrases to its rules when it wants to. GW did not do so for Soulswitch.

Fortunately GW used a word that has a very specific meaning... (i.e. "unless). To make your argument you either ignore the word "unless" completely or change its meaning. RAW prevents us from doing either!

I always turn that question upon myself (i.e. am I twisting clear language?). This is precisely the exercise that allows me to use the actual definitions of the written words.

Of course, everybody is refusing my suggested mental exercise because it makes clear that my interpretation is correct. IF the entire sentence was absent from the power's description then the power would work precisely as you suggest. Therefore, you have elected to ignore that sentence. IF the entire sentence was the sole sentence in the power it would very clearly be a power that enabled the units to charge unless locked in combat. So, again, you must ignore that sentence entirely or relegate it somehow to not "the primary ability." Every sentence of the psychic power is what the power accomplishes. Sometimes I may want to swap places so that my combi-plasma can double tap and I have no intention of charging. Sometimes I may want to place a stronger unit or ob sec unit atop an objective. Sometimes I may just want a particular unit to charge. Sometimes I may want to do all of these things. Every word and sentence of the power is what the power does! There is no such thing as primary ability and, presumably, secondary ability.

Unless is defined as "except if."

Except is defined as "not including, other than."

Unless locked in close combat, these units can charge in the same turn.

Except if locked in close combat, these units can charge in the same turn.

Other than if locked in close combat, these units can charge in the same turn.

Not including if locked in close combat, these units can charge in the same turn.

Do not add words, do not eliminate words, and give every word effect then you will have RAW.

Ok, so if you disembark from an assult vehicle, you can run and charge?

Yes or no. No wall of text required. Please note if you say "no" you are being inconsistent with your own argument.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ok, so if you disembark from an assult vehicle, you can run and charge?

Yes or no. No wall of text required. Please note if you say "no" you are being inconsistent with your own argument.

I already conceded that the RAW would allow running and charging, but that the better argument is that subsequent actions would nullify the benefit of the assault vehicle rule. Remember I said that once you wash your hands your hands are clean (i.e. Soulswitch and Assault Vehicle allow charging per RAW) but you can later get your hands dirty again (i.e. engage in running or firing heavy weapons that nullifies the prior benefit). Both of these arguments (can or cannot charge) are consistent with my prior argument. To prove that TO YOU would require a "wall of text."

 Lord_Thanatos wrote:

What is a psychic powers primary ability? Where is that in the rules? This concept is made up out of whole cloth... For your interpretation to work you must completely ignore the word "unless." Isn't it more accurate that every single sentence of the power's description is what the power does?

I posted the entire text of both Soulswitch and Assault Vehicles earlier.

Nobody believes there is anything unclear about the remaining text of the psychic power Soulswitch. All of my statements fit nicely with the remaining words of the entire special rule or psychic power description.

In the context of switching the position of two units upon successfully manifesting this power not only do both units get to assault, but also any units that are Swooping become Gliding and there is the possibility of an additional 6" of movement depending upon the unit size of the two units. Every one of the aspects of this psychic power fit nicely with the understanding that UNLESS LOCKED IN CLOSE COMBAT, these units can charge in the same turn.

Why can't I get a little bit of intellectual honesty from my fellow posters that if that sentence were completely eliminated the psychic power would then work precisely as others desire? Because the sentence is there extensive mental gymnastics are required to explain that the sentence does not mean what it says or does not matter at all!

RAW, you can charge.

RAI, I doubt it.

 Lord_Thanatos wrote:
Why can't I get a little bit of intellectual honesty from my fellow posters

And with this comment you lost all credibility whatsoever You might disagree with us, but don't say the people disagreeing with you are intellectually dishonest.

 doctortom wrote:

 Lord_Thanatos wrote:
Why can't I get a little bit of intellectual honesty from my fellow posters

And with this comment you lost all credibility whatsoever You might disagree with us, but don't say the people disagreeing with you are intellectually dishonest.

I guess intellectual engagement is what I should have written. I was not trying to insult you.

I still maintain that if someone were to contemplate the following two hypothetical questions it becomes clear that RAW allows the units to charge as I have argued.

1) How does the psychic power function without the sentence "Unless locked in combat, these units can charge in the same turn"?

2) How would the psychic power function if the only sentence in the power's description was "Unless locked in combat, these units can charge in the same turn"?

None of those responding to my post have addressed these questions. I believe it is because without the disputed sentence the psychic power would function exactly as those who disagree with me maintain it functions now. I also believe that if the disputed sentence was the only sentence in the description the power would clearly enable the blessed unit(s) to charge regardless of any other normal restrictions.




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 JNAProductions wrote:
RAW, you can charge.

RAI, I doubt it.

I concur.

RAW it has not specifically lifted all restrictions. Thus specific restrictions on charging are still in place

Specific beats out general. We know this power is not specific because it lacks any specificity at all. For example "regardless of having disembarked from a vehicle without the Asssault vehicle rule" is what you would require for your "intellectually engaging" argument to work.

As other people pointed out, if you can't assault out of an Assault Vehicle that comes from Reserves (and you can't), then you can't assualt with Electrodisplacement. It does not remove any other type of restriction, it just allows you to assault if you were normally able to do it. The only reason it is esplicitly allowed is to distinguish it from every other psychic power that allows you to move (including one in the same psychic discipline...), all of which prevent assault.