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As the title says, which is better in these 3 categories:
Shooting
CQC
manuverability
and overall point-efectiveness

I don't know much about them but I have played against both DA terminators and Sammael leading black knights, I must say the terminators were much easier to deal with. Terminators don't have the manuverability to reliably threatons an army, there only positive is their 2+ 5++ but most armies these days have Ap2 weapons to deal with them. That leaves them with a 5++ (or 3++ if you pay for ss) but bikes get jink for free; if you get shrouded cast on a biker unit they become a very big threat.

So,
Shooting: Bikes and Termies can mostly take the same things.
CQC: Termies can take the more deverstating TH but that leaves them striking last, so CQC really depends on what you are looking to kill.
Manuverability: Bikes, easy.

Overall: Bikes can be fast and deadly whilst termies tend to be a rather big point sink for not much.

 mrhappyface wrote:
I don't know much about them but I have played against both DA terminators and Sammael leading black knights, I must say the terminators were much easier to deal with. Terminators don't have the manuverability to reliably threatons an army, there only positive is their 2+ 5++ but most armies these days have Ap2 weapons to deal with them. That leaves them with a 5++ (or 3++ if you pay for ss) but bikes get jink for free; if you get shrouded cast on a biker unit they become a very big threat.

So,
Shooting: Bikes and Termies can mostly take the same things.
CQC: Termies can take the more deverstating TH but that leaves them striking last, so CQC really depends on what you are looking to kill.
Manuverability: Bikes, easy.

Overall: Bikes can be fast and deadly whilst termies tend to be a rather big point sink for not much.

Thank you kind sir for your friendliness and wisdom

No problem mate

I am building a Ravenwing army right now so I can give you a more detailed breakdown

Shooting: It depends on what type of gun you want to be shooting.
Black Knights have a Plasma Talon (which is twin-linked) and can replace one Plasma Talon per 3 Black Knights with a Ravenwing Grenade Launcher.
The grenade launcher has a stasis grenade that can reduce the targets WS and Initiative by 1 (minimum 1) with overlaps with CQC.

Regular Ravenwing Bikes can take Gravguns, Meltaguns, Plasma Guns, or Flamers.

Terminators have longer range weapons and different options but will cost much more.
Also you can only take one heavy weapon per 5 Terminators.


CQC: If you want high strength Close Combat Weapons Terminators are better because Black Knights are stuck with Corvus Hammers.
However Corvus Hammers are +1 Strength, Melee, Rending so they are quite good.
The Ravenwing Champion in a Ravenwing Command Squad can take a Blade of Caliban but you can only have one per command squad.
The Huntsmaster in a Black Knights unit can take a power weapon but he is also one per squad.

Vehicles above AV 11 won't care much about Black Knights though Melta Bombs, Huntsmaster Power Weapons, and for AV 12 Krak Grenades are not useless against those targets.
Terminators are more reliable for AV 12 and above because they come with power fists.

Black Knights have Hit and Run so they can drive away from melee if they don't want to stay locked in combat.

Black Knights are Toughness 5 so they are more difficult to wound than Terminators.
Terminators have a better armor save but AP 2 will bypass that leaving them with their invulnerable save (5++/3++ with Storm Shield).


Maneuverability: Bikes win. There is no contest.
They have a 12" move,
They have Scout with lets them redeploy 6"12" before the first turn starts or stay in reserves and Outflank.
They have Hit and Run with allows them to leave Close Combat and move 3d6 inches away if they pass a Initiative test.

Terminators have Deep Strike which is good but it can backfire on you.
They move 6", 6" slower than Black Knights.


Overall: Terminators are overpriced for what they do, especially compared to Ravenwing units.

 arclance wrote:
I am building a Ravenwing army right now so I can give you a more detailed breakdown

Shooting: It depends on what type of gun you want to be shooting.
Black Knights have a Plasma Talon (which is twin-linked) and can replace one Plasma Talon per 3 Black Knights with a Ravenwing Grenade Launcher.
The grenade launcher has a stasis grenade that can reduce the targets WS and Initiative by 1 (minimum 1) with overlaps with CQC.

Regular Ravenwing Bikes can take Gravguns, Meltaguns, Plasma Gun, or Flamer.

Terminators have longer range weapons and different options but will cost much more.
Also you can only take one heavy weapon per 5 Terminators.


CQC: If you want high strength Close Combat Weapons Terminators are better because Black Knights are stuck with Corvus Hammers.
However Corvus Hammers are +1 Strength, Melee, Rending so they are quite good.
The Ravenwing Champion in a Ravenwing Command Squad can take a Blade of Caliban but you can only have one per command squad.
The Huntsmaster in a Black Knights unit can take a power weapon but he is also one per squad.

Vehicles above AV 11 won't care much about Black Knights though Melta Bombs, Huntsmaster Power Weapons, and for AV 12 Krak Grenades are not useless against those targets.
Terminators are more reliable for AV 12 and above because they come with power fists.

Black Knights have Hit and Run so they can drive away from melee if they don't want to stay locked in combat.

Black Knights are Toughness 5 so they are more difficult to wound than Terminators.
Terminators have a better armor save but AP 2 will bypass that leaving them with their invulerable save (5++/3++ with Storm Shield).


Manuverability: Bikes win. There is no contest.
They have a 12" move,
They have Scout with lets them redeploy 6" before the first turn starts or stay in reserves and Outflank.
They have Hit and Run with allows them to leave Close Combat and move 3d6 inches away if they pass a Initiative test.

Terminators have Deep Strike which is good but it can backfire on you.
They move 6", 6" slower than Black Knights.


Overall: Terminators are overpriced for what they do, especially compared to Ravenwing units.

Bikes scout 12" not 6" but otherwise a very good comparison

Your right about the 12" scout move, I should have double checked that.
I have not used scouting bikes before and forgot what scouts what distance.

I play Ravenwing almost exclusively and it's one of the tactics I use a lot. I'll deploy my entire army on the line, scout 12, move 12 and then just start obliterating the enemy.

Black Knights are the best unit in the codex and one of the best in the game.

Deathwing, like all other terminators, are almost never played competitively.

Long time Dark Angels player here and I can say without a doubt Black Knights are superior unless your opponent has lots of ignores cover weapons. I run a Ravenwing command squad with Champion and Apothecary along with an Interrogator Chaplain with the Mace of Redemption and a level 2 librarian with force axe. It's expensive, but it can carve up an enemy army in short order. Movement wise there's no comparison with Terminators. Shooting wise I think they're pretty even. Sure the plasma talons are great, but I rarely get more than one or two volleys off because the squad is constantly jinking. Melee power is about even. The Knights don't like fighting guys with 2+ saves or walkers, but with speed and hit and run they can usually avoid fights they don't want to be in.

The big difference between the two is in survivability against shooting. Without ignores cover, every weapon in the game is more dangerous to Terminators than Black Knights. It takes about 6 bolter wounds to kill a terminator. It takes slightly more than 10 to kill a knight. AP2 or 1 murders Terminators. It doesn't mean anything to the knights. They survive Grav and plasma just as effectively as lasgun fire because the save off of cover so all of your opponent's expensive heavy weapons don't make any meaningful difference.

I like Terminators because they look cool and they're iconic 40k units. I love Black Knights because they win games.

Bikes are >> than termies.