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Davor wrote:
WYSIWYG is a joke. Either you go all in or you don't. I just find it funny the WYSIWYG camp will say it's mandatory but yet will not have WYSIWYG grenades or ammo, and then make excuses as to why psychic powers are not WYSIWYG.

Now before you go on how psychic powers are random now, they were not when you had WYSIWYG police back in 5th edition when you picked what you waned. The point still stands the WYSIWYG police will always make an excuse why you have to conform but will have excuses when they don't conform.

Go all in or not at all. There is no middle ground That is called being a hypocrite then.

That's certainly an interesting stance, Davor. I, however, do believe there is a middle ground. I think your "Psychic Powers can't be WYSIWYG so nothing should be" is a rather unique argument.

I'm 100% WYSIWYG with my weapons, armor, and vehicles. I don't mind playing against someone that is proxying a weapon or model or even a unit to try it out before buying one. However, I don't play often. When I do play, I can't stand spending half the game asking "What's that squad have? What's that melta count as, again?" and so forth. I'd honestly rather not play at all and just sit and talk about the weather.

If you do proxy, please be considerate:

1. Be uniform with the proxy. DO: "All flamers are really plasma guns." DO NOT: "This flamer is a plasma gun, this one is a melta gun, this one is actually a flamer, and those two are Chapter Masters with Relic Blades."
2. Be close to what you're proxying. DO: "This terminator with an assault cannon is my Terminator Chaplain." DO NOT: "This ammo runt is my Gorkanought."
3. Don't bring it more than 3 times. Yes, I pulled that number out of my ass. But after 3 tries, you know if the unit fits your army. Go fething buy it or scratch build it.

As always, happy gaming.

 kronk wrote:

Davor wrote:
WYSIWYG is a joke. Either you go all in or you don't. I just find it funny the WYSIWYG camp will say it's mandatory but yet will not have WYSIWYG grenades or ammo, and then make excuses as to why psychic powers are not WYSIWYG.

Now before you go on how psychic powers are random now, they were not when you had WYSIWYG police back in 5th edition when you picked what you waned. The point still stands the WYSIWYG police will always make an excuse why you have to conform but will have excuses when they don't conform.

Go all in or not at all. There is no middle ground That is called being a hypocrite then.

That's certainly an interesting stance, Davor. I, however, do believe there is a middle ground. I think your "Psychic Powers can't be WYSIWYG so nothing should be" is a rather unique argument.

I'm 100% WYSIWYG with my weapons, armor, and vehicles. I don't mind playing against someone that is proxying a weapon or model or even a unit to try it out before buying one. However, I don't play often. When I do play, I can't stand spending half the game asking "What's that squad have? What's that melta count as, again?" and so forth. I'd honestly rather not play at all and just sit and talk about the weather.

If you do proxy, please be considerate:

1. Be uniform with the proxy. DO: "All flamers are really plasma guns." DO NOT: "This flamer is a plasma gun, this one is a melta gun, this one is actually a flamer, and those two are Chapter Masters with Relic Blades."
2. Be close to what you're proxying. DO: "This terminator with an assault cannon is my Terminator Chaplain." DO NOT: "This ammo runt is my Gorkanought."
3. Don't bring it more than 3 times. Yes, I pulled that number out of my ass. But after 3 tries, you know if the unit fits your army. Go fething buy it or scratch build it.

As always, happy gaming.

Fair enough I see where you are coming from now and I think I can lessen my stance there. Good point. . I guess for me, even if my opponents army is WYSIWYG I still keep asking, what does that squad have because I just can't retain information like that and I keep asking anyways. So for me WYSIWYG doesn't help me at all.

I get why it's important in tournaments.

Outside of that as long as it's easy to see what's what. I mean if the guy says that every dude you see with a flamer is in fact melta for his build purpose then what's wrong with that?

I think the recurring theme here is this: clear, consistent, unambiguous, not granting undue advantage and having some level of similarity.

Does that make any kind of sense?

As long as it is consistent and not wildly different on every unit it should be ok.

Or something outrageous like "I know these guys aren't on bikes but they count as being Bikers."

jade_angel wrote:
I think the recurring theme here is this: clear, consistent, unambiguous, not granting undue advantage and having some level of similarity.

Does that make any kind of sense?

Pretty much. That's the reasonable approach to take.

 kronk wrote:
3. Don't bring it more than 3 times. Yes, I pulled that number out of my ass. But after 3 tries, you know if the unit fits your army. Go fething buy it or scratch build it.

Got to disagree with this one. Not everyone has the money to buy new models, or the time to paint them.

Well here is the way my army will be built and played:

My infantry has the weapons they are armed with. I will try to put on the proper weapons because believe me, I REALLY wanted to represent the actual weapons on my models. However not playing very much (understatement I haven't played since 4th) I'm more concerned with how my models look. If I started playing every week right now for the entirety of the next three editions I will NEVER spend as much time playing as I did painting that army. I'm not a great painter by any means but I'm decent, learning the airbrush and model up my bases. I don't want magnet joins showing on my models. Turrets and such I can see sure why not, I -will- try to put the proper weapon on the model. However I'm not going to sacrifice the beauty of my models for game play.

I don't proxy models. A banshee is a Banshee. A Falcon is a Falcon. But heavy weapons I intend to put on in such a way that accentuates the look of the model. My models will be marked individually and with a list provided to my opponent for their purposes they should be able to wrap their head around what's what. If I can I will endeavor to say all weapons on that unit of bikes or whatever are scatter lasers for example.

I'm not trying to cheat anyone. I can keep up with what heavy weapons are on my models. I played during the days where a tank or bike came with one weapon and there were no bits stores. Granted there were not as many vehicles back then but the same principal applies. If someone won't play me because I have different weapons (sometimes even when a bright lance on one vehicle is something different then a bright lance on another) then that's fine. I would rather have a great looking army than magnet mania. And I don't really do tournaments. When I begin playing again it will be at my place on my board with some beverages and enough time to look at a copy of my roster so that you know what each model is armed with and what squad they are carrying (no I do not balance Striking Scorpians on the tops of my Wave Serpents). Check the roster sheet that has been provided for your convenience.

See? No need for "little bits of paper by each vehicle". In fact, no need to put a die next to each vehicle or character to record wounds or Hull Points. Mark it on the roster. It's efficient and keeps little dice from rolling over from 1 wound left to 2 wounds left when moved.

jade_angel wrote:
I think the recurring theme here is this: clear, consistent, unambiguous, not granting undue advantage and having some level of similarity.

Does that make any kind of sense?

I agree with that. I'm fine with proxies if they are consistent and not confusing.

I am stubbornly stuck playing my own models WYSYWYG, even when they are less practical, or if i fancy some new idea, i will convert up the appropriate wargear choices (new relics) before bringing it to a game. But now I'm at that point in gaming that maybe it wouldn't be so bad to.... use those plasma guns as grav, or use that powerfist as a lightning claw or "this unarmed sergeant has a combi weapon".

Maybe. It's just been my experience that most proxy users are only trying to power game. If you're not and just have limited models in your collection it's fine, I'll play. But if I'm gonna play against the new broken interweb tourny power list and you don't even have the required models it's just not a fun game for me.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Maybe. It's just been my experience that most proxy users are only trying to power game. If you're not and just have limited models in your collection it's fine, I'll play. But if I'm gonna play against the new broken interweb tourny power list and you don't even have the required models it's just not a fun game for me.

I can understand this. I am by no means a power gamer. My favorite troop type in my army are Guardian Defenders..hence Ulthwe'. I'm not trying to annihilate anyone at all costs. I like a competitive game, and yes I like to win, but I don't want to crush my enemies, see them driven before me..etc. Besides, I'm not good enough at the game to do that even if I stole some UBER-Hardcore list from the net anyway. So I buy the models I like the background for and I think look cool. Then I make it work. I've never spammed whatever uber unit is currently ruling the meta. Meta changes, things get nerfed. Buy what you like and have variety in your army. That's what I've learned over the years.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

Maybe. It's just been my experience that most proxy users are only trying to power game.

Since i mostly play with my buddies, when they proxy it's either "I want to try something fun/weird/different" or "before I buy, let me see how this works."

I don't have a problem with that.

But I hear you. I've heard similar stories to what you've said and empathize.

I remember one game that I played in 6th. My opponent lacked enough vehicles for his transports, so he borrowed my chimeric, my buddies' raiders, buggies, and rhinos and said they were all razorbacks. Then looked at me as though saying, 'what? At least they are vehicles represented on the table.'
It was one of the last games that I played at that particular locale.

I'm wierd on this one, I'm particularl about my army being wysiwyg but honestly don't give a crap if you want to proxyup an entire army to see if it's the right feel you want before dropping a few hundred on models.

I operate under the "don't feth me, I won't feth you" line of thinking ever since I switched to daemons where gak just goes really slow if you do all your rolling one at a time for other dude to follow. It's a game, I'd like to think people won't cheat you, especially when you letting them proxy up so much.

I once allowed a Necron player who was missing one Ghost Ark to use a Tau Devilfish as a substitute. Game went very smoothly.