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Hi all, I've been playing Daemons since around mid 6th and have included Fateweaver in nearly all my lists - and for good reason. His reroll of a dice to make the Grimoire go is great and warp storm manipulation *almost* mandatory. Thing is, I'm flat out sick of using him. I frequently feel that even in relatively Warp Charge saturated lists (~17+), that I can rarely invest enough dice in witch fires to make him feel like something more than a tax to field the Grimoire. Knowing all the change powers is great, but who cares if you never get to use them?

With the advent of the Incursion he seems even less of an auto include than before since the +1/-1 is good enough to avoid the really disastrous results on the warp storm table and actually more desirable than a reroll in a few circumstances. Combine that with the fact that a LoC with Impossible Robes makes for a fantastic warlord with good options for warlord traits and I'm even more ready to jump ship.

So, Dakka, here I would like you to share any lists or tactics exclusive of the Fate Bird that you've had success with or ideas you are currently cooking up. I'll share a few of my own that I have yet to have the opportunity to test once we get the ball rolling.

On the flip side, if you think that Fateweaver is the absolute bee's knees, please share any tips or tricks you may have for making the most of his/hers/it's admittedly impressive array of psychic shenanigans.

Thanks!

Fateweaver is the ultimate toolbox. He fixes your problems, plain and simple. He summons, he kills vehicles, he kills infantry, he ignores cover, etc. The re-roll is much more than grim insurance. Key grounding checks, LD check on Impossible Robe, failed charges, perils, etc. Re-roll warpstorm is incredible and only amplified by the decurion +1/-1.

There is a reason all serious Daemon lists include him, even over multiple editions.

He can be made to be as basically invincible as anything in 40k can be with the 2++ re-rollable. He's a top-tier psyker. So right off the bat, he's best-in-game level at two things. He fly's, summons, and mitigates one of you're armies biggest weaknesses.

In summary, he's mobile, provides free additional points, mitigates key weaknesses and provides much needed re-rolls in an army designed to be hamstrung by randomness, in addition to being top tier in two separate unrelated categories.

And isn't a LOW. It's not that you can't field a good army without him, it's that he's a LOW in an HQ slot, so why would you?

EDIT: if you're bored, go LOC and a herald/screamer star or drop a GUO in someones face. Just be prepared to play an army with more variance in results, regardless of input. You'll still win a decent amount of the time, but marines are putting down some crazy combinations and Tau and Eldar both play crazy strong, so pick your army by what your meta can support =)

If you are bored with Fatey, roll a LoC or just Heralds and just ride the fun. Or use your Fatey re-roll to cause mischief rather than just to ensure everything goes just right. I played tzeench/fatey lists for a long time and grew quite bored with it.

Ended up spending a lot of fateys re-rolls trying to ensure I got a 9 on the warp storm chart roll. The look on my opponents face when I picked up half of a box car roll hoping for a three, then cheering when I got it was worth it.

Whats fun to you may be different than whats fun for me, but when you arent having fun playing a game, you are doing it wrong.

He is just generally an amazing guy. The number of times his re-roll has saved me from　6s on the stomp and D detail are well worth his points. When combined with a LoC with the impossible robes you basically get an unkillable unit!

peirceg wrote:
He is just generally an amazing guy. The number of times his re-roll has saved me from　6s on the stomp and D detail are well worth his points. When combined with a LoC with the impossible robes you basically get an unkillable unit!

You do know fate weaver doesn't let reroll your opponents dice right?

Really? I thought it was any dice?

peirceg wrote:
Really? I thought it was any dice?

How can you "re-roll" a die that you didn't roll?

997Turbo wrote:Fateweaver is the ultimate toolbox. He fixes your problems, plain and simple. He summons, he kills vehicles, he kills infantry, he ignores cover, etc. The re-roll is much more than grim insurance. Key grounding checks, LD check on Impossible Robe, failed charges, perils, etc. Re-roll warpstorm is incredible and only amplified by the decurion +1/-1.

There is a reason all serious Daemon lists include him, even over multiple editions.

All great points. I'm more than familiar with using him for the big rerolls. Although statistically his reroll the warp storm trait isn't nearly as good as the reroll from his staff in terms of combining him and the +1/- 1 decurion benefit. To that end I'm heavily considering demoting him from warlord and using a LOC warlord alongside since most of the traits are great and +1 invuln to Tzeentch units within 9" can be huge for a heavily Tzeentch force.

cod3x wrote:He can be made to be as basically invincible as anything in 40k can be with the 2++ re-rollable. He's a top-tier psyker. So right off the bat, he's best-in-game level at two things. He fly's, summons, and mitigates one of you're armies biggest weaknesses.

In summary, he's mobile, provides free additional points, mitigates key weaknesses and provides much needed re-rolls in an army designed to be hamstrung by randomness, in addition to being top tier in two separate unrelated categories.

And isn't a LOW. It's not that you can't field a good army without him, it's that he's a LOW in an HQ slot, so why would you?

EDIT: if you're bored, go LOC and a herald/screamer star or drop a GUO in someones face. Just be prepared to play an army with more variance in results, regardless of input. You'll still win a decent amount of the time, but marines are putting down some crazy combinations and Tau and Eldar both play crazy strong, so pick your army by what your meta can support =)

Again, great points. A few notes in the spirit of keeping conversation alive:

Free points? A Paradox Herald does it better.

2++ Rerollable? A LOC w/ robes does it easier.

Not a LOW? Damnit don't jinx us for the next codex!


I wouldn't say I'm bored per se, just looking for alternatives. I know Fate Bird is a bundle of utility but being that there alternatives that can do some (not all) of his functions better I'm wondering if there are ways to build a competitive list without him.

 CrownAxe wrote:

peirceg wrote:
Really? I thought it was any dice?

How can you "re-roll" a die that you didn't roll?

Still a bit undecided but I found this ;

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/511717.page

peirceg wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

peirceg wrote:
Really? I thought it was any dice?

How can you "re-roll" a die that you didn't roll?

Still a bit undecided but I found this ;

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/511717.page

There are no tournaments I know of that allow you to use Fateweaver's reroll To affect any pregame rolls or opponent's rolls so let's assume that is the case for the purpose of this thread.

I've been playing Daemons competitively since their original codex dropped in 5th ed. I have used FW only 2-3 times and have been disappointed each time. Granted I have never used him since their latest codex changed everything, but with the way Psychic powers work in 7th, he is just too random and 300pts for 1 re-roll isn't exactly points efficient.

Seriously think about how the odds of getting powers off changed. It used to be an LD test, which all Tz units had LD10 for that. Now it's a 50/50 chance to harness WC. So before you could reliably get off 90+% of your powers for your entire army, but now your lucky to get off half of them, and you have to "give-up" WC on some units to allow others to get their powers off.
FW is a model that does ZERO damage if you don't get off his powers, meaning that he is a drain on the army's ability to get off other powers.

I'd much rather have Belakor, who you can build a strategy around his powers, or a LoC. LoC got even better with Robes, and as you put it, FW's warpstorm re-roll is not so necessary with the Incursion +1/-1. Belakor or a LoC can actually perform well even if little to no powers go off. They treat powers as bonuses, whereas FW completely relies on them to function.

TL;DR: FW was always a "crutch" players used to make Daemons less random. Incursion makes that crutch unnecessary, allowing more versatile options like Belakor or a LoC to shine

-

Galef, Fateweavers reroll is almost never used for psychic powers. Currently, I have been using his reroll for crucial things such as a failed Grimoire, rerolling a single roll on the Warpstorm table (for example, if I roll a 6 and a 1 I dont want to reroll the whole thing). In my opponents turn, I have used it to reroll failed grounding checks, the last wound on important models, and the leadership checks of my LoC with the impossible robes. I have yet to fail a leadership check with him thanks in large part to Fatey rerolling the top dice.

 jifel wrote:
Galef, Fateweavers reroll is almost never used for psychic powers. Currently, I have been using his reroll for crucial things such as a failed Grimoire, rerolling a single roll on the Warpstorm table (for example, if I roll a 6 and a 1 I dont want to reroll the whole thing). In my opponents turn, I have used it to reroll failed grounding checks, the last wound on important models, and the leadership checks of my LoC with the impossible robes. I have yet to fail a leadership check with him thanks in large part to Fatey rerolling the top dice.

I'm sorry, I was not implying that the re-roll was used for Psychic powers. I was discussing 2 separate things. The re-roll is great, but if that's all you use him for, than that Grimoire is 330pts. Not very points efficient.
I was also discussing that many Tz units were priced when powers were simple LD tests, meaning that most units could in fact cast their powers in the same turn. Now you often have to sacrifice all your Pink horror Flickering fires just so that FW can make his worth. Just an example of why I don't use FW, not that I care too much about Flickering fire

I have always excepted that FW at least had a place in competitive lists because of the re-roll and WL trait, but now that the Incursion list exist and the Tetrad uses your WL trait, I just don't see FW being as useful in any list other that Screamer-Star/ Daemon factory. He is a FMC that can NEVER contribute to CC.

-

 astro_nomicon wrote:

997Turbo wrote:Fateweaver is the ultimate toolbox. He fixes your problems, plain and simple. He summons, he kills vehicles, he kills infantry, he ignores cover, etc. The re-roll is much more than grim insurance. Key grounding checks, LD check on Impossible Robe, failed charges, perils, etc. Re-roll warpstorm is incredible and only amplified by the decurion +1/-1.

There is a reason all serious Daemon lists include him, even over multiple editions.

All great points. I'm more than familiar with using him for the big rerolls. Although statistically his reroll the warp storm trait isn't nearly as good as the reroll from his staff in terms of combining him and the +1/- 1 decurion benefit. To that end I'm heavily considering demoting him from warlord and using a LOC warlord alongside since most of the traits are great and +1 invuln to Tzeentch units within 9" can be huge for a heavily Tzeentch force.

cod3x wrote:He can be made to be as basically invincible as anything in 40k can be with the 2++ re-rollable. He's a top-tier psyker. So right off the bat, he's best-in-game level at two things. He fly's, summons, and mitigates one of you're armies biggest weaknesses.

In summary, he's mobile, provides free additional points, mitigates key weaknesses and provides much needed re-rolls in an army designed to be hamstrung by randomness, in addition to being top tier in two separate unrelated categories.

And isn't a LOW. It's not that you can't field a good army without him, it's that he's a LOW in an HQ slot, so why would you?

EDIT: if you're bored, go LOC and a herald/screamer star or drop a GUO in someones face. Just be prepared to play an army with more variance in results, regardless of input. You'll still win a decent amount of the time, but marines are putting down some crazy combinations and Tau and Eldar both play crazy strong, so pick your army by what your meta can support =)

Again, great points. A few notes in the spirit of keeping conversation alive:

Free points? A Paradox Herald does it better.

2++ Rerollable? A LOC w/ robes does it easier.

Not a LOW? Damnit don't jinx us for the next codex!


I wouldn't say I'm bored per se, just looking for alternatives. I know Fate Bird is a bundle of utility but being that there alternatives that can do some (not all) of his functions better I'm wondering if there are ways to build a competitive list without him.

The point is though that Fateweaver can be all of that. Does he fulfill each role as efficiently? No. He is a jack of all trades, master of none. In a 6 round tournament that level of utility is worth a lot in my book.

This is not to mention that he makes arguably the best piece of wargear in the game (Grimoire) much more reliable.

Can you build a competitive daemon army without him? Yes. Its just that the majority of daemon lists benefit from him.

I would say that FW is a good choice if you are not running an Incursion detachment or not using Grimoire. But, if like me, you don't use Grimoire that often or are using a Tetrad Incursion that makes his WL trait less useful/ takes way from the Tetrad, then FW is a points sink whose only good ability is to re-roll a bad roll.

Even then, I rather use Belakor to give multiple Screamer units a 2+ re-rollable Jink save, rather than only give 1 unit a 2++ by using Grimoire. Belakor can also make a unit Invisible in every game, not just the games that you roll Invis with FW. I've played plenty of pre-Incursion games with Belakor, a LoC, a large unit of Hounds and 2 medium units of Screamers. Turn 1 they all move up, Belakor cast Shrouding and makes the Hounds Invisible. Now the LoC (who is still on the ground) and BOTH units of Screamers have a 2+ Jink
I'd say that's better than 1 Grimoired unit of Screamers.
Only Tau have enough ignore cover to ruin this tactic, but against every other army, Belakor + LoC brings more to the table than FW + Screamer star

FW may be a "toolbox" but he sadly comes with different tools each game, and if he fails his powers, he sucks. At least Belakor or a LoC can still smash face in CC. Which is a bonus considering Daemons are the only army in 40K that can do an all CC army successfully.
I can see how many players want to use FW since he plays into similar "shooty" tactics as other 40K armies. But from experience, I can tell you, he is just a crutch. Daemon lists can not only do well without FW, but they can dominate.

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 Galef wrote:
I would say that FW is a good choice if you are not running an Incursion detachment or not using Grimoire. But, if like me, you don't use Grimoire that often or are using a Tetrad Incursion that makes his WL trait less useful/ takes way from the Tetrad, then FW is a points sink whose only good ability is to re-roll a bad roll.

Even then, I rather use Belakor to give multiple Screamer units a 2+ re-rollable Jink save, rather than only give 1 unit a 2++ by using Grimoire. Belakor can also make a unit Invisible in every game, not just the games that you roll Invis with FW. I've played plenty of pre-Incursion games with Belakor, a LoC, a large unit of Hounds and 2 medium units of Screamers. Turn 1 they all move up, Belakor cast Shrouding and makes the Hounds Invisible. Now the LoC (who is still on the ground) and BOTH units of Screamers have a 2+ Jink
I'd say that's better than 1 Grimoired unit of Screamers.
Only Tau have enough ignore cover to ruin this tactic, but against every other army, Belakor + LoC brings more to the table than FW + Screamer star

FW may be a "toolbox" but he sadly comes with different tools each game, and if he fails his powers, he sucks. At least Belakor or a LoC can still smash face in CC. Which is a bonus considering Daemons are the only army in 40K that can do an all CC army successfully.
I can see how many players want to use FW since he plays into similar "shooty" tactics as other 40K armies. But from experience, I can tell you, he is just a crutch. Daemon lists can not only do well without FW, but they can dominate.

-

Thing is I was kind of hoping to avoid Be'Lakor as well since he can feel like even more of a one trick pony in certain match ups and often seems squishier despite the 2+ jink. I guess I just need to get used to making the most of him until he inevitably bites it. I really want to try an MSU approach but it seems hard to pull of with Daemons with out some serious shortcomings. If I had the models, pairing a Murderhorde with a Skyhost seems like it has potential but lacks punch against some frequently seen opponents.