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Actually, ITC limits you to no more than two of the same formation, but Lotds of the Cult is not a formation. So while you can take only two maximum SubUprising, Lords of the Cult is just an option in a multiple formation detachment, not a formation itself, and therefore can have multiples taken.
So a lot of people are taking the cult insurrection with 4 hqs then a CAD. What do people like to fill the CAD with? Which bubbles are you finding most useful? I suppose even if you are running a different style, which bubbles are you finding most useful?
BBAP wrote:I get the feeling it could work, but I can't see any good way to do it. A lot of the mech formations require your dudes to start the game mounted, which detracts from the flexibility of the army somewhat. I'm thinking maybe something with a Brood Cycle rather than a Cavalcade could work - that way you can either mount up or not depending on what you feel you need to do. You could probably pack quite a bit of firepower around a mounted Brood Cycle too, although I haven't really tried yet.
I'd probably go with a brood cycle for the industrial theme, though I think the Cavalcade might have some potential in the Cult Uprising detachment. You basically trade out a first turn Return to Shadows roll in favor of a guaranteed 2 result on the ambush table when the units first arrive (with the vehicles brought along too as a bonus). It benefits from a +1 to reserves from the Cult Uprising detachment, so it should come in fairly reliably on turn 2 with the rest of the ambushers that used Return to Shadows turn 1.
MilkmanAl wrote:I feel like the Demolition Claw is a reasonable solution if you're wanting to fully mechanize. The Rock Grinders are nice backfield and midfield control units, and tank-hunting Goliaths are actually pretty darn cost-effective. Mandatory demo charges on the Acolytes isn't ideal, but they can certainly do some damage if you get that lovely Cult Ambush 6. A Brood Cycle with 2 Demo Claws should give you all the armor you need to create a fairly threatening parking lot.
I do like the Demolition Claw, it has done well for me in the games I have used it so far (about 5-ish) as stated prior. I'm planning on using the two new Goliaths I picked up at our local shop's black Friday sale to build a couple standard trucks for use in the formation as extra tank-hunter buffed anti-armor firepower.
The Demo charge Acolytes have actually done rather well for me surprisingly. The squads basically play like Marbo from the old Imperial Guard book (hmmm... wonder if that's why he disappeared? ). I might be misremembering, but I think the ones in the Demolition Claw were able to reroll the scatter results regardless of proximity to the formation's rockgrinders, just they had to be within a certain distance to recover charges after being thrown. Regardless, they are quite fun when aboard the formation's 'grinders. Nothing likes the prospect of 2-3 S8 AP2 pieplates with rerolls to hit and pen.
BBAP wrote:I can't get into big units of Genestealers at all. They're fragile, expensive, and have no grenades - you might roll a 4 for your Warlord trait, or roll up the right biomorph on the First Curse table - but then again you might not. Plus they're S4. Claw-Morphs are much better value for points, I think.
I didn't care for Genestealers initially either, but having used them a bit I actually rather like them now. They aren't that much more expensive than a Claw-morph (+3 points) and are a bit tougher (5++ against ignores cover and they can take FNP against S6 shooting) and faster (both initiative and Fleet + Move Through Cover). Main advantage is against other competent melee units, since 'stealers will swing before pretty much any other commonly encountered threat (particularly obnoxious Wraithknights) while Acolyles and Claw-morphs have to wait their turn to swing. I've generally used them as a second-wave assault threat to finish off whatever has been locked down by other assets (this is why the lack of grenades hasn't been a huge issue for me, once a target is locked in melee you don't suffer the penalty to Initiative). That said, I don't like units greater than 8-10 strong as any more than that tends to lead to gross overkill in combat (which they don't want) or else a waste of points when every shooting platform in the opposing army is going to be gunning for them.
vercingatorix wrote: So a lot of people are taking the cult insurrection with 4 hqs then a CAD. What do people like to fill the CAD with? Which bubbles are you finding most useful? I suppose even if you are running a different style, which bubbles are you finding most useful?
I've gotten most use out of the Primus' bubble so far, but admittedly very few people at our group have been using psykers so the Magnus' bubble has little effect and the abundance of S6 shooting makes the Iconward's FNP bubble only really helpful for the Aberrants (which love it) and 'stealers. Most of my CAD based builds have used the Patriarch though, as fearless is always good and he still offers a little bit of psychic shenanigans.
Also if running a CAD, I'd strongly recommend those Armored Containers. They offer a fairly nice toolbox with lots of deployable cover, ammo dumps for rerolls of 1 while shooting, fuel drums for torrent flamers, and the random chance of getting a lovely orbital bombardment or 4++ bubble.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/02 18:17:00
1410pts. 440pts to play with. With this base, you dump what you need to in reserve (generally the Stealers and CAD Acolytes, plus whatever else I think I can live without for a few turns) and deploy everything else as needs be - generally the Magus and Iconward with one blob of Neophytes, Warlord with the other for wounds, CAD Patriarchs with Cycle units (although I don't like that - people love to shoot at Patriarchs and I've had a couple of turn 1 close calls even despite Shrouding). Turn one you either hit stuff with anything that can charge and RttS with everything else, or if that's not a good idea you RttS as much as possible. If I can get casts off I'll leave 4-6 Warp Charges on the table - if not I'll put my psykers in Ongoing Reserve and just start casting on turn 2.
Doing it this way ensures you're always going to have stuff coming in from Ambush, and you've got so many dice to roll you're guaranteed a 6 or three. You're also guaranteed several 1s, a few awkward 2s, and a couple of 5s that may or may not be useful; anything that lands out of position gets shoved in a corner ready to RttS and try again next turn. I tend to be RttSing with at least 3 units on every turn bar turn 5, in which case I'll only RttS stuff that's in a really, really bad position.
EDIT: I should probably point out that in the eight or so games I've played with this army list, I've never once gone first. Not once. I have an idea how it'd work going first, but I've never had a chance to try it out.
You can fill that 440pts out with various different things, though I like to try and bring in anti-air stuff or anti-armour shooting if I can get it, preferably stuff tough enough to survive turn 1 on its own, which gives me leeway to RttS my entire GSC contingent if I feel like it. A couple of things I've tried so far:
ITC Comp:
- Two Flyrants with TL Devourer/ Shock grubs and 2 Mucolids. You need to drop a Claw-Morph squad and The Crouchling to fit these in, and in all honesty I probably wouldn't do it again. I ran them against a Scatbike Eldar army and while they weren't awful, I just didn't feel like they did enough to justify the reshuffle. The Flyrants are surprisingly fragile too - 480pts is a lot to ask for 2x4 wounds, even on a flyer, and Grav spam will blow them up no problem at all. Shadow in the Warp was a pain as well. One of the Mucolids did manage to blow up a Scatbike unit all by itself though, which was amusing.
- CCS and Infantry Platoons, all with Flakk MLs. Wasn't impressed with this one either. The BS3 shooting just isn't good enough to be reliable with such a small contingent - but I'm not willing to drop any of my GSC units (which are good) to include more Guard units (which are bad). Played it against a mech Wolves army with an IK, where it performed poorly, and a shooty Eldar army, where it performed poorly and then died. In both games my Acolytes killed more vehicles than the Missile Launchers did.
- Pask Vanquisher with a Lascannon and HB Sponsons, Veterans with a Missile Launcher, Vendetta. Drop a unit of Claw-Morphs and you can fit all this in. Ran this against Scatbike/ Wraithknight Eldar and mech Wolves with an Imperial Knight (the one with the Battlecannon and chainsword), and it did pretty well against both. The Pask Vanquisher is a really nasty piece of kit, tough as old boots and capable of dishing out a lot of damage. It's cheaper and sturdier than a single Flyrant too. The veterans died before they could fire a shot against the Eldar and did nothing at all against the Wolves. The Vendetta was complete ass.
ETC Comp:
- Daemons Allied (Fateweaver, Horrors, Screamers, Tzeentch DP). The idea here was max Warp Dice, and I was so sure it would work that I dropped some GSC stuff to fit it all in. I was wrong. It was a complete disaster. Just an unmitigated fail-fest. I ran it against an Ultramarines army with lots of grav, melta and bikes, which you'd think it'd do well against, but it's just too much. There's far too much going on, and because both halves of the army want to be in CC it's way too difficult to keep them out of Come The Apocalypse range of one another. I did manage to swap the Horrors for a Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster though, which was funny - not sure it's legal to give Horrors Malefic powers anymore, but he died to Gravs before he could do anything so we didn't query it too closely.
- Coteaz, OM Inquisitor with Servo Skulls, 2 Acolytes, 1 Psyker, Psyback, Culexus Assassin. I played this against a pretty sub-optimal Wolves army (Fenrisian Wolf "deathstar" with Celestine and Canis, Wulfen in a Stormwolf, plus a few other daft units and a Culexus Assassin), but even at that it was quite handy. The "allied" contingent has a really small footprint so Come The Apocalypse wasn't an issue - your dudes tend to want to be near your psykers, who want to be far away from the Culexus, who is generally fine running around on his own forcing enemy psykers to move, while the Psyback can just sit in a corner far away from everything and plink away until it dies. If you don't feel you need Coteaz's Warp Charges you can also use it as a deathride. The Servo Skulls are more a hindrance than a help - they're "enemy" Skulls, so your dudes can't Ambush within 12" of them, which is annoying, although you can just stick them all behind the Psyback and Infiltrate everywhere else. I can see them being extremely useful against the likes of White Scars though - deploy them across the middle of the board and you take away his Scout move at the cost of access to the mid-board for your own units.
One army I'd quite like to try allying with is Necrons, although I don't really know any Necrons players and I doubt I could get enough models together to proxy them
.
I see your core list, I think I get what you are playing like now. Do you play just pure GSC as well? If so what do you run to fill in the points?
Your list doesn't have any large unit to hide HQ in . 10 man squads are not safe. Why the Patriarch in the Cad when Magus are cheaper and do the same thing. Patriarch want a big unit to play with not small 5 man unit. are better for the MSU approach you are doing.
I am surprised you feel is The Pask Vanquisher is sturdier than Flyrant? In what way. The tank is a easy target for Grav. Where's a Tyrant can fly away, need 6's to hit it and can go off the board if need be to reposition for the next turn. Not seeing how a tank is more survivable then one of the best units in the game.
Here is my list to see my mind set. a Pure GSC list. I play in the ITC format a lot so my list are geared toward them.
vercingatorix wrote: So a lot of people are taking the cult insurrection with 4 hqs then a CAD. What do people like to fill the CAD with?
Min squads of Acolytes. It's a tax for the extra HQs - anything else you want to bring is better off in the Insurrection so it gets Infiltrate.
Which bubbles are you finding most useful? I suppose even if you are running a different style, which bubbles are you finding most useful?
Fearless is indispensible. I don't think I'd like running this army without at least one Patriarch. You might be able to pull it off if you go mech, but anything melee-oriented wants those Patriarch(s). The Primus bubble is awesome if you can fit him in too, but like I said earlier - rolling 40 to-hit dice is fantastic with Hatred, but even without it you're still rolling 40 to-hit dice. The Iconward is useless; S6 ignores it on the majority of your units, and even when it doesn't it saves so few models I rarely remember to roll it.
Strat_N8 wrote: I didn't care for Genestealers initially either, but having used them a bit I actually rather like them now. They aren't that much more expensive than a Claw-morph (+3 points) and are a bit tougher (5++ against ignores cover and they can take FNP against S6 shooting) and faster (both initiative and Fleet + Move Through Cover). Main advantage is against other competent melee units, since 'stealers will swing before pretty much any other commonly encountered threat (particularly obnoxious Wraithknights) while Acolyles and Claw-morphs have to wait their turn to swing. I've generally used them as a second-wave assault threat to finish off whatever has been locked down by other assets (this is why the lack of grenades hasn't been a huge issue for me, once a target is locked in melee you don't suffer the penalty to Initiative). That said, I don't like units greater than 8-10 strong as any more than that tends to lead to gross overkill in combat (which they don't want) or else a waste of points when every shooting platform in the opposing army is going to be gunning for them.
I'm not saying Genestealers are bad. They're absolutely not - I get a lot of use out of the 5-man squad I bring in my Brood Cycle (I generally use them like you do, they come in and murder things I'm stuck in combat with), and there's definitely a place for them in most GSC lists. They're just not a good unit to build an army around, in my opinion. They have no grenades for a start, and if there's one thing I can't stand it's melee units without grenades. That T4 5++ isn't so tough that going last won't hurt them, and FNP(6+) saves so few models I often forget I have it - for Stealers it's an incremental increase to survivability that might make sense if you're running the Stealers as part of an army, but isn't going to keep an army built around them from crumbling to bolters. The +3pts per model above Claw-Morphs isn't much model for model, but it adds up quickly. You also have to bear in mind that Claw-Morphs and Stealers get the same number of attacks, but Stealers are S4 while the Morphs are S6 (and can reach S8 with the right buffs), and Stealers can never have more than 1D6 on their Ambush rolls.
tl;dr - I don't hate Genestealers. I just don't think you can build a good GSC army around large units of them for various reasons.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
shadowfinder wrote: Do you play just pure GSC as well? If so what do you run to fill in the points?
I tend not to, partly because that pushes the model count above 150 no matter what I do, and finding 150 models to proxy with is a bit awkward, and partly because pure GSC can't kill Flyers reliably. If I was going to do it I'd probably retool it to fit in some shooty units.
Your list doesn't have any large unit to hide HQ in . 10 man squads are not safe
They're fine. Give them cover and they'll work. Give the opponent something else to shoot at, or keep them off the table for 2/5 turns, and they work even better.
Why the Patriarch in the Cad when Magus are cheaper and do the same thing.
Don't do the same thing at all. Don't get Fearless bubbles from a Magus.
Patriarch want a big unit to play with not small 5 man unit. are better for the MSU approach you are doing.
Patriarchs suck. They exist solely to provide Fearless bubbles. What they "want" is 10 ablative wounds so they can sit in midfield powering the rest of the army.
I am surprised you feel is The Pask Vanquisher is sturdier than Flyrant? In what way
It's immune to S6 shooting from the front and sides and has a 72" range main gun. Sit it in a corner and it'll plug anything that comes into midfield. Seems obvious to me.
Where's a Tyrant can fly away
With 18" weapons and a Template? It can fly away, but if it does it's a waste of space.
need 6's to hit it
Grav cannons are Salvo 3/5 and nobody brings just one. Scatbikes are Heavy 4. Spider-guns are Assault 2. Cluster Pods are Heavy 4D6. Etcetera etcetera.
Not seeing how a tank is more survivable then one of the best units in the game.
Try running them against Taudar or Eldar. You'll soon see. Flyrants might be great if you take 5 of them. With 2, not so much.
This list has a decent amount of moving parts and has staying power to handle incoming fire power for a turn too be able to pounce the next turn.
These are T4 5++ dudes you're talking about. It doesn't have "staying power". Nothing in the GSC book does, aside from Russes and Aberrants. That's why you need tonnes of bodies, and why all of those bodies need to present enough of a threat that (a) your opponent wants to shoot at them all and (b) losing 40-60 of them a turn doesn't cripple your army. We were talking about Tau earlier. One Stormsurge could probably destroy 20 Genestealers a turn on its own, maybe even more if you land in D-pulse range, more still once the Markerlights start hitting you.
D weapons are a threat to your army. Mine doesn't care about them, because any D attack is killing 5/10 dudes maximum.
It's not an issue of "playstyle" either. I get what you're trying to do, because I tried to do it as well when I first picked the army up. It'll work well against certain builds that lack the firepower or mobility to avoid/ squash the Stealers, but once you start losing those Stealers your army will fold quickly.
Like I said though, you play the army how you want to play it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/02 23:21:22
I think the only thing that REALLY holds the stealers back is that they can't be taken as part of a subterranean uprising. Giving them an extra roll on the CA table would make them spammable as they definitely have their niche in CC and aren't even much less survivable per point with their 5++ and T4. They're just too expensive to have the risk of a 1 on the table and not have them in the fray early.
And here's my take on the MSU vs large unit debate:
MSU advantages - Tougher against shooting + assault. Enemy loses significant killing power due to overkilling small squads. They have to do this unless they want a single model to RTTS and return with free reinforcements. - Tougher vs overwatch. Can lose maximum of 5 models, maybe fewer if the first charging squad is already depleted. - Better distribution of damage output. Small units can avoid wasting unecessary killing power on one unit. 5 metamorphs will likely kill a rhino. If you have two units of 5 they can kill two rhinos. If you have one unit of ten you're going to struggle more. This is more apparent with MSU shooting though than with GSC. - Can engage multiple threats. If you need two far flung units dead on the last turn, if you only have one blob of 20 to CA, they can kill maximum of one. Four units of 5 can spread themselves about. This is an advantage capturing objectives too. - RTTS reinforcements. Mightbe hard to prove with stats, but I suspect that having more rolls at getting reinforcements will yield more new bodies, even if the squads can only get 1-4 men back. Four depleted 5-man units might get an average of 2 models back each from RTTS + CA, so eight new models. A depleted 20-man blob will get on average 3 or 4 from its single roll.
Large unit advantages - Good to hide characters in (particularly with the auto-pass on LOS), also good to hide hidden goodies such as the heavy rock saw. - Take advantage of blessings more e.g. invis, and some character benefits - Take advantage of the good warlord trait (pick your CA result) - Give up fewer kill points. This can be a major drawback in some formats like the ETC (I've had an occasion where I've lost on kill points despite having around 700pts of my MSU army left where my opponent had around 200pts remaining. I also controlled more objectives and it lost me the game) - Slightly better at screening/bubblewrapping. Only slightly better though. Nothing to stop you spreading 4 small five man units out in a row to bubble wrap either, but the enemy might be able to punch a hole in these with shooting a little easier.
Ways in which they're as good as each other (but both sides of the debate often like to claim as advantages): - Total killing power. They are the same number of models. If you charge in with a unit of ten, you could just as easily charge with two units of 5. - Morale. Assuming no fearless, morale is fairly equivalent. No big deal if two survivors from a MSU squad flee. Big deal if 12 acolytes leg it out of a 20 man squad! MSU are easier to force checks, but blobs have bigger consequences. MSU might have the advantage in morale from losing assaults, as they can avoid the problem by feeding a 40pt squad per turn to anything they think they will lose to. They can do their damage and die, knowing another 10 men won't be run down.
My take on the matter is that MSU are inherently stronger in terms of damage and toughness. My army I'm building towards is almost entirely MSU, backed up with three 20-man blobs of neophytes with patriarchs to block stuff, tie stuff up and provide a safe place for the fearless bubble of the patriarchs. My advice is that with large squads, use one or two and play to their strengths - characters, blessings, warlord traits. Keep the majority of the force MSU
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/02 23:57:25
Fully Painted Armies: 2200pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons 450pts Imperial Knights
DoomMouse wrote: My take on the matter is that MSU are inherently stronger in terms of damage and toughness. My army I'm building towards is almost entirely MSU, backed up with three 20-man blobs of neophytes with patriarchs to block stuff, tie stuff up and provide a safe place for the fearless bubble of the patriarchs. My advice is that with large squads, use one or two and play to their strengths - characters, blessings, warlord traits. Keep the majority of the force MSU
I've said it before and I will say it again:
Pick a unit of 20 acolyte from the brood cycle so that if you got that 6 on the warlord trait (with reroll so that will happen sum times) you can attach your characters and go to town.
Also pick a unit of 20 acolytes from the subterean uprising and attach the primus for a 3xd6 cult ambush unit.
These two units could cripple an enemy army turn 1.
@BBAP: I understand that you just use the Patriarch for fearless and nothing else and then I can imagine its okay for him to stay in the back in cover with only a unit of 10. But with Unquestionable loyalty I rather put my both patriarchs + both magus + iconward in a small deathstarr unit. I think its just a waist to keep them behind. If the can assault a deathstar unit first turn the could really get the sting out of it.
I lean towards having a large unit or two of Acolytes for the SU Primus and warlord Patriarch to roll with since each has a ~50% chance of being able to ambush at will. That's obviously no guarantee, but I like having the ability to throw down a monster combat unit when and where I need it. You could certainly argue that splitting the unit into 4 pieces increases the chance you'll be able to 6 ambush something, and that is true. Unfortunately, the chances you'll be able to crash in with more than 1 unit are pretty slim. While that's not a huge deal if you're picking off opposing MSU, if you're looking to down a Stormsurge or Wraithknight or deathstar of some kind, power is good! It takes 108 Acolyte attacks to down a Wraithknight in a turn (or 54 if you're hitting on 3's), so you've got to bring the purple tide if you want to make it count.
On a loosely related note, I haven't found that the Patriarch sucks - quite the opposite, in fact. The fearless bubble is crucial, no doubt, but the Patriarch is brutal in combat for his cost. Obviously you'll need to avoid big units with 2+ saves, but he mows through basically anything else.
shogun wrote: @BBAP: I understand that you just use the Patriarch for fearless and nothing else and then I can imagine its okay for him to stay in the back in cover with only a unit of 10. But with Unquestionable loyalty I rather put my both patriarchs + both magus + iconward in a small deathstarr unit. I think its just a waist to keep them behind. If the can assault a deathstar unit first turn the could really get the sting out of it.
You don't necessarily sit in the back. You want those bubbles in midfield - that way if it's not outright preventing Morale checks it limits the distance your runners will travel. It also means some units can G2G in one turn, then return to normal the next, which makes rolling a 3-5 for Ambush less of a pain.
I agree that a 10-man unit isn't the safest place for them. It's not hard for someone to blow that unit up and your Patriarch along with it - but in my experience the opponent usually has enough other targets to shoot at that he's not worried about a bunch of dudes with autoguns. Even if one of them does get blown up, I have another 2 to use.
Me, I think using the Patriarchs as front-line fighters is a waste. Putting them in a melee unit sort of locks you into placing and moving them a certain way. That means less flexibility for bubble placement. They're also really, really mediocre in close combat - they're good for a wound or two a turn against basic troopers, but that's about the most you can count on them for, and that margin is small enough that a full-blown whiff is not uncommon. I think they should've given the Claws RRTH rather than Shred.
The First Curse out of formation
Patriarch [Mastery Level 2]
Purestrain Genestealers [20x Purestrain Genestealer]
This list has a decent amount of moving parts and has staying power to handle incoming fire power for a turn too be able to pounce the next turn.
I just won a RTT with this list . In the finals I had to face a Mirror match VS another GSC that had mass acolytes and meta's with claws. The mass number of genestealer I had enabled me to easily deal with them. The large unit allowed me to handle all the extra small unit he had as he could bring any in that could survive my attacks first from them.
The first curse formation is very good.
It was a brutal game we played.
shogun wrote: @BBAP: I understand that you just use the Patriarch for fearless and nothing else and then I can imagine its okay for him to stay in the back in cover with only a unit of 10. But with Unquestionable loyalty I rather put my both patriarchs + both magus + iconward in a small deathstarr unit. I think its just a waist to keep them behind. If the can assault a deathstar unit first turn the could really get the sting out of it.
You don't necessarily sit in the back. You want those bubbles in midfield - that way if it's not outright preventing Morale checks it limits the distance your runners will travel. It also means some units can G2G in one turn, then return to normal the next, which makes rolling a 3-5 for Ambush less of a pain.
I agree that a 10-man unit isn't the safest place for them. It's not hard for someone to blow that unit up and your Patriarch along with it - but in my experience the opponent usually has enough other targets to shoot at that he's not worried about a bunch of dudes with autoguns. Even if one of them does get blown up, I have another 2 to use.
Me, I think using the Patriarchs as front-line fighters is a waste. Putting them in a melee unit sort of locks you into placing and moving them a certain way. That means less flexibility for bubble placement. They're also really, really mediocre in close combat - they're good for a wound or two a turn against basic troopers, but that's about the most you can count on them for, and that margin is small enough that a full-blown whiff is not uncommon. I think they should've given the Claws RRTH rather than Shred.
Patriarchs are beast in close combat and it is a odd day that he doesn't kill what he is fighting. In a large combat unit he thrives. GSC is a Combat army not a shooting army. His fearless bubble makes sure get to finish the job. If you are taking him just that bubble you are missing out on het best skills. I have had kill A lot of stuff so far making his points back in spades.
I will not leave home without a 20 man squad for him and thr FC is very good for him.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/04 21:58:52
shadowfinder wrote: Patriarchs are beast in close combat and it is a odd day that he doesn't kill what he is fighting.
Happens often enough in my games that it's become a running joke. A Rune Priest took two wounds off him last time I played and Paw couldn't land a glove on him. Needed some Acolytes to come over and help him out.
In a large combat unit he thrives.
... because he's in a large combat unit. A Magus thrives in a large combat unit because he has lots of other models to make up for his suck. Patriarch, same deal. Being able to deal 1-2 wounds a turn isn't a massive hindrance when the dudes around you are dishing out 7+.
GSC is a Combat army not a shooting army.
Who said they weren't?
His fearless bubble makes sure get to finish the job. If you are taking him just that bubble you are missing out on het best skills.
The bubble is his best skill. Combat is a distant third. If you charge him in without an assault unit for backup he could end up stuck in CC with whatever he's fighting for four or five rounds, which means your bubble is static for two turns. That means one less bubble to repop units that G2G against shooting or keep units fighting a losing combat.
I have had kill A lot of stuff so far making his points back in spades.
"Making back points" is not a good way to judge the quality of a model. My Patriarchs never "make their points back", but they're the lynchpin of my army and indispensible for a lot of the tactics I use. I couldn't run the army without them.
shadowfinder wrote: Patriarchs are beast in close combat and it is a odd day that he doesn't kill what he is fighting.
Happens often enough in my games that it's become a running joke. A Rune Priest took two wounds off him last time I played and Paw couldn't land a glove on him. Needed some Acolytes to come over and help him out.
In a large combat unit he thrives.
... because he's in a large combat unit. A Magus thrives in a large combat unit because he has lots of other models to make up for his suck. Patriarch, same deal. Being able to deal 1-2 wounds a turn isn't a massive hindrance when the dudes around you are dishing out 7+.
GSC is a Combat army not a shooting army.
Who said they weren't?
His fearless bubble makes sure get to finish the job. If you are taking him just that bubble you are missing out on het best skills.
The bubble is his best skill. Combat is a distant third. If you charge him in without an assault unit for backup he could end up stuck in CC with whatever he's fighting for four or five rounds, which means your bubble is static for two turns. That means one less bubble to repop units that G2G against shooting or keep units fighting a losing combat.
I have had kill A lot of stuff so far making his points back in spades.
"Making back points" is not a good way to judge the quality of a model. My Patriarchs never "make their points back", but they're the lynchpin of my army and indispensible for a lot of the tactics I use. I couldn't run the army without them.
Very interesting with the double first curses. I hope you switch the patriarchs between them so both have shrouded turn 1? Not a huge fan of first curse personally but I'm glad you've been able to find success with it. I found it was just too expensive to fit in a list with allied Nids, but it's certainly the first place Id look if I were pure GSC. Have you had the chance to play against Daemons or Nids by the way? Seems like pure GSC has a major problem with killing fliers, and both Flyrants and Daemon FMCs have the potential damage output to make ignoring them a little too painful to work. Also, I'm surprised your list seems to favor pure Acolytes over Metamorphs. To me, the 3 ppm is more than worth it to get the claws in, and I've personally had a lot of success with maxing out Metamorphs in both a single and double SubUp. I eventually settled on a single SubUp with more support and larger squads, but I'm surprised you chose the acolytes as the big squads rather than the metamorphs.
shadowfinder wrote: Patriarchs are beast in close combat and it is a odd day that he doesn't kill what he is fighting.
Happens often enough in my games that it's become a running joke. A Rune Priest took two wounds off him last time I played and Paw couldn't land a glove on him. Needed some Acolytes to come over and help him out.
In a large combat unit he thrives.
... because he's in a large combat unit. A Magus thrives in a large combat unit because he has lots of other models to make up for his suck. Patriarch, same deal. Being able to deal 1-2 wounds a turn isn't a massive hindrance when the dudes around you are dishing out 7+.
GSC is a Combat army not a shooting army.
Who said they weren't?
His fearless bubble makes sure get to finish the job. If you are taking him just that bubble you are missing out on het best skills.
The bubble is his best skill. Combat is a distant third. If you charge him in without an assault unit for backup he could end up stuck in CC with whatever he's fighting for four or five rounds, which means your bubble is static for two turns. That means one less bubble to repop units that G2G against shooting or keep units fighting a losing combat.
I have had kill A lot of stuff so far making his points back in spades.
"Making back points" is not a good way to judge the quality of a model. My Patriarchs never "make their points back", but they're the lynchpin of my army and indispensible for a lot of the tactics I use. I couldn't run the army without them.
Very interesting with the double first curses. I hope you switch the patriarchs between them so both have shrouded turn 1? Not a huge fan of first curse personally but I'm glad you've been able to find success with it. I found it was just too expensive to fit in a list with allied Nids, but it's certainly the first place Id look if I were pure GSC. Have you had the chance to play against Daemons or Nids by the way? Seems like pure GSC has a major problem with killing fliers, and both Flyrants and Daemon FMCs have the potential damage output to make ignoring them a little too painful to work. Also, I'm surprised your list seems to favor pure Acolytes over Metamorphs. To me, the 3 ppm is more than worth it to get the claws in, and I've personally had a lot of success with maxing out Metamorphs in both a single and double SubUp. I eventually settled on a single SubUp with more support and larger squads, but I'm surprised you chose the acolytes as the big squads rather than the metamorphs.
I did switch the to patty's to get the shrouded on both unit turn one. It is a simple solution to getting the benefit to the second FC. I have found the free random buff to be very nice as well.. I looked at it with Two flyrants. I think it will work with just one FC but I have not had the chance to try it.
I have faced a Nurgle daemon army with a IK, but nothing with a high number of shots from a daemon army yet. I Did face a 6 Fliers SM army that had a Fire raptor and a few Ravens and storm talons and some assault transport that fired lots of template all over the place. It was crazy. A unit of 20 stealers required all the fliers to focus it down the in cover>
I have yet to play VS 5 Flyrants yet. Most of the Tyranid players myself included have switched to a Tyranid cult combo with a max of 3 Flyrants. I myself am looking at just doing two. Mainly Pure GSC is hard to play 4 to 5 round with the hoard of models.
VS flyer's They have to land some time and then they die. Anything on the ground just dies normally.
VS hive tyrants I think midsize unit of 10 will be able to survive and be able to go away and come back. Large Units of Genestealer with a 3+ cover-save have no issues with being shoot at as they can weather the pain fairly well. Vs the tyrants I just place the objectives in ruins and sit tell they have to come to me. In the ITC I will win the Maelstrom very time.
As for the favoring pure Acolytes over Metamorphs.. I had some overkill boxes and no whips at the time. Mine where already painted and I didn't want to destroy then to remodel.
I have found the claw meta's to be good but I really like the whips as well. I think a unit of ten should have a 4 whips to help handle other GSC armies. With all the genestealer I don't have to worry about it so much as I swing before the claws guys.
I like the acolytes because I can take a unit of 15 to hid the Icon and if I take a primus( I ma thinking he is not really worth it for my play style) to hide in. This give me in this list 4 big units to threaten the board for a beta strike. with at lest two guys normal letting me set op a dammed if you do and dammed if you don't scenario.
I am looking at incressing the sub uprising to two 15 man Acolytes squads and giving me 5 15 man squads. I looking at drop the primus altogether as he has yet t help get me a 6 even on three dice in over 10 games. I would rather buff up the small 5 man squads to 7 to 8 in th Brood cycle or the two meta's squads to a high numbers. I will have to see.
So far I have won a GT and a local RTT with genestealer as my main unit. With the Rtt win I should have First place with GSC in the ITC so far. I am hoping to get in one more tournament befor the LVO I like to have a real chance to get First place GSC for the year. Next year I will do GSC for the season or intel they come out with new Tyranid book.
I have faced Tau gun lines and Eldar Bike spam while going second and was able to weather the storm pretty well. Eldar do not like the new GSC at all. Tau can be a very messy fight depending on who goes first. GSC likes going first. I ind bigger units make going second doable.
My only concern is the amount of time it take to do the movement phase with them. I may go with 2 Flyrants to help with the model count. it is a hard call to make.
think going with a single SubUp is the way to go with larger unit sizes.
I Faced a subUp in a mirror match ran them that way it did really well. He had no genestealer except the 5 in the BC and maxed out the SupUp formation and then a cad. he was doing really well as we. Between the two of us we had over 260+ models on the table after deployment. It was crazy fun.
jifel wrote: Very interesting with the double first curses. I hope you switch the patriarchs between them so both have shrouded turn 1? Not a huge fan of first curse personally but I'm glad you've been able to find success with it. I found it was just too expensive to fit in a list with allied Nids, but it's certainly the first place Id look if I were pure GSC. Have you had the chance to play against Daemons or Nids by the way? Seems like pure GSC has a major problem with killing fliers, and both Flyrants and Daemon FMCs have the potential damage output to make ignoring them a little too painful to work. Also, I'm surprised your list seems to favor pure Acolytes over Metamorphs. To me, the 3 ppm is more than worth it to get the claws in, and I've personally had a lot of success with maxing out Metamorphs in both a single and double SubUp. I eventually settled on a single SubUp with more support and larger squads, but I'm surprised you chose the acolytes as the big squads rather than the metamorphs.
It really depends on the missions but if you're playing with tactical objectives its better to work with MSU that can appear and disappear every turn. Acolytes are so cheap and with the right bonuses (icon/Primus/psychic powers) just as good to get the job done against a lot of enemy units. Also I believe that acolytes can go to 20 models in a unit and metamorphs only 10. With a big army that infiltrates/cult ambush you can just simply block the whole field so that flyers cannot deploy/land. If you summon 20 neophytes for 2 turns (with heavy weapons) you could block another part of the battlefield and start shooting to.
Yeah it's absolutely crazy how many models we can put down honestly... I've heard several people dissing the flyrants as Unneccessary compared to more bodies but to me they're important from a time standpoint in competitive play. I don't ever want to be that guy who never seems to hit turn 5! Model limitations are certainly real too. I've been actively avoiding the summoning power just because right now my list is all I've got! Fortunately I picked up another DW:O and two more hybrid boxes, but getting all of the required Neophytes is going to take some time... Glad to hear that a few people have been having success with the army! Congrats on all the wins, but as soon as I get my army fully painted I'm coming for that ITC spot
jifel wrote: I've heard several people dissing the flyrants as Unneccessary compared to more bodies but to me they're important from a time standpoint in competitive play.
I think this needs talking about. It takes a long, long time to play this army, and I'm not sure how much of that you can obviate with practise and experience. There's only so fast you can move 140+ models, especially when you're moving some onto the table, moving some off, summoning more in... it's great, but it's very time-consuming, and there's an awful lot to keep track of.
Maybe an argument for semi-mech GSC in tournaments?
jifel wrote: I've heard several people dissing the flyrants as Unneccessary compared to more bodies but to me they're important from a time standpoint in competitive play.
I think this needs talking about. It takes a long, long time to play this army, and I'm not sure how much of that you can obviate with practise and experience. There's only so fast you can move 140+ models, especially when you're moving some onto the table, moving some off, summoning more in... it's great, but it's very time-consuming, and there's an awful lot to keep track of.
Maybe an argument for semi-mech GSC in tournaments?
I'll admit that I haven't played in a tournament yet, but I've been playing competitive Nids for 6 years and my friendly games take way longer with GSC than they do with Nids. Got to have part of the army be something very familiar and fast to play so I can keep the game going. Had a friendly game go over 4 hours the other day where I played against a Deathstar. Admittedly it was 7 turns of me popping in and out avoiding him (didn't declare a single assault) but that was still way too long.
jifel wrote: I've heard several people dissing the flyrants as Unneccessary compared to more bodies but to me they're important from a time standpoint in competitive play.
I think this needs talking about. It takes a long, long time to play this army, and I'm not sure how much of that you can obviate with practise and experience. There's only so fast you can move 140+ models, especially when you're moving some onto the table, moving some off, summoning more in... it's great, but it's very time-consuming, and there's an awful lot to keep track of.
Maybe an argument for semi-mech GSC in tournaments?
I'll admit that I haven't played in a tournament yet, but I've been playing competitive Nids for 6 years and my friendly games take way longer with GSC than they do with Nids. Got to have part of the army be something very familiar and fast to play so I can keep the game going. Had a friendly game go over 4 hours the other day where I played against a Deathstar. Admittedly it was 7 turns of me popping in and out avoiding him (didn't declare a single assault) but that was still way too long.
Time is a big factor I feel to. I do find that most of my games are decided by turn 3 most of the time. Taking Tyrants will make the game go faster and they are a good answer to people bubble rapping units. They also give you Str 6 shooting which make some match up easier. For Tournament play they have a really strong argument in there favor.
The list I played at the RTT can play fast but you are still taking 30 to 40 min to do the setup. Having a plan goes a long way in fixing that. For my army I am trying to get 3+ on the CA. If I get a 6 it is cool but it is not something I plan for.
For me I don't know if I want to give up my large units of Genestealer for the Flyrants. They been doing the heavy lifting for me really well.
jifel wrote: I've heard several people dissing the flyrants as Unneccessary compared to more bodies but to me they're important from a time standpoint in competitive play.
I think this needs talking about. It takes a long, long time to play this army, and I'm not sure how much of that you can obviate with practise and experience. There's only so fast you can move 140+ models, especially when you're moving some onto the table, moving some off, summoning more in... it's great, but it's very time-consuming, and there's an awful lot to keep track of.
Maybe an argument for semi-mech GSC in tournaments?
I'll admit that I haven't played in a tournament yet, but I've been playing competitive Nids for 6 years and my friendly games take way longer with GSC than they do with Nids. Got to have part of the army be something very familiar and fast to play so I can keep the game going. Had a friendly game go over 4 hours the other day where I played against a Deathstar. Admittedly it was 7 turns of me popping in and out avoiding him (didn't declare a single assault) but that was still way too long.
Time is a big factor I feel to. I do find that most of my games are decided by turn 3 most of the time. Taking Tyrants will make the game go faster and they are a good answer to people bubble rapping units. They also give you Str 6 shooting which make some match up easier. For Tournament play they have a really strong argument in there favor.
The list I played at the RTT can play fast but you are still taking 30 to 40 min to do the setup. Having a plan goes a long way in fixing that. For my army I am trying to get 3+ on the CA. If I get a 6 it is cool but it is not something I plan for.
For me I don't know if I want to give up my large units of Genestealer for the Flyrants. They been doing the heavy lifting for me really well.
Certainly most games can be decided by 3 turns but not all, and I mostly don't want to run out of tie against an opponent with tough units or bubble wrap. Plus I've been seized on enough to know that any game can turn close, but still be winnable. Got seized on by an Eldar list with Triptide wing and it took me 6 turns to swing that one back in my favor.
jifel wrote: I've heard several people dissing the flyrants as Unneccessary compared to more bodies but to me they're important from a time standpoint in competitive play.
I think this needs talking about. It takes a long, long time to play this army, and I'm not sure how much of that you can obviate with practise and experience. There's only so fast you can move 140+ models, especially when you're moving some onto the table, moving some off, summoning more in... it's great, but it's very time-consuming, and there's an awful lot to keep track of.
Maybe an argument for semi-mech GSC in tournaments?
I'll admit that I haven't played in a tournament yet, but I've been playing competitive Nids for 6 years and my friendly games take way longer with GSC than they do with Nids. Got to have part of the army be something very familiar and fast to play so I can keep the game going. Had a friendly game go over 4 hours the other day where I played against a Deathstar. Admittedly it was 7 turns of me popping in and out avoiding him (didn't declare a single assault) but that was still way too long.
Time is a big factor I feel to. I do find that most of my games are decided by turn 3 most of the time. Taking Tyrants will make the game go faster and they are a good answer to people bubble rapping units. They also give you Str 6 shooting which make some match up easier. For Tournament play they have a really strong argument in there favor.
The list I played at the RTT can play fast but you are still taking 30 to 40 min to do the setup. Having a plan goes a long way in fixing that. For my army I am trying to get 3+ on the CA. If I get a 6 it is cool but it is not something I plan for.
For me I don't know if I want to give up my large units of Genestealer for the Flyrants. They been doing the heavy lifting for me really well.
Certainly most games can be decided by 3 turns but not all, and I mostly don't want to run out of tie against an opponent with tough units or bubble wrap. Plus I've been seized on enough to know that any game can turn close, but still be winnable. Got seized on by an Eldar list with Triptide wing and it took me 6 turns to swing that one back in my favor.
Good points to keep in mind. I am looking forward to Running this army at LVO that is for sure.
There are different things you can do to speed up the game:
With deploying and removing GSC units I like to use movement tray's:
If theirs not a lot of big (indirect) blast you can place your units behind a defence line on the tray. No need to spread out if you got a 2+ coversave (first turn shrouded + defenceline) and replenish d6 casualties with 'return to the shadow'.
All my units got different color pants and my Brood cycle got banners to keep them apart.
If you can afford, let your enemy go first, take a few wounds, go into the shadows and leave at least one unit behind not to get wiped, replenish your wounds, his second turn he got almost nothing to shoot at, and then come out of the shadows. You start playing at the end of turn 2 so you will take this game to turn 5 or further. And a lot happens during these rounds so it's not like you don't get a good game. Once played against 3 thunderfire cannons + 2 devastator squads with missle launchers that were shooting frag blast at my mega armor ork warboss with lucky stikk . This took forever!!!! But with GSC armies there is a lot of moving, shooting, assaulting and both players lose a lot of units and that makes a good game.
I think knowing when to skip certain action, can speed up your play time in a tournament. You don't have to shoot every pistol when you need a 6 to wound every round.
Knowing when to do this and when not to I believe will be the secret to winning with GSC in a tournament setting.
I had a experience where my opponent was wanting to assault units that had no way of helping him win because he thought he had to. I told him I let hi win cause only the big fight in the middle counted as this was the last turn because we where out of time. after I pointed it out he realized it himself but we sometime get so focused in playing the game we forget the time.
Time management will be key. I think taking large units can help with that and knowing when to shoot which unit nd when not too will speed things up.
I made movement/deployment trays as well. It sped things up considerably. I also made numbered markers out of 25 mm bases to keep track of what units are what. It was still tough with 20+ units on the board! My Magus units are all different colors to make psychic easier.
Just played my first game tonight, a smashing victory for the MSU genestealer cults vs nids. I can definitely tell this is going to take some practice to get the play style down and get used to the movement.
AwesomeSauceGaming wrote: I made movement/deployment trays as well. It sped things up considerably. I also made numbered markers out of 25 mm bases to keep track of what units are what. It was still tough with 20+ units on the board! My Magus units are all different colors to make psychic easier.
Cut the gutter guard stuff at a diagonal so that it looks like guardrail instead of chain link. Dip it in boiling water for a minute or so afterwards to get it to lay straight?
Hot glue all that together, prime black, dry brush metal, use a stencil to paint hazard stripes and Bobs your uncle!
P.s. Super glue and PVA glue suck for this, I tried! Stick with hot glu throughout.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/07 12:39:05
Nice one! I think I have most of that stuff lying around too (maybe not the gutter guard), might slap some together this weekend and see how I get on. Really good stuff.
Those are some seriously cool movement trays. They fit the theme I think of with GSC really well, too! When you get close to opponents (like, say, when you're ripping their faces off in combat), do you abandon the trays? Lift up the opposing models onto the tray? Basically, I'm trying to figure out when/if the movement tray strategy breaks down and you're obligated to shuffle dudes manually.
Yeah, around turn two they start getting pulled off. I mostly use them as cult ambush deployment and getting dudes off for return to shadows
Close combat they get pulled off, and even sometimes to squeeze into a tight spot Or to tuck dudes into ruins. But for squads that roll 1-5 and aren't overly concerned about blasts they stick around until it's convenient to spread out or the RTTS.
And thanks for the compliments! I kinda envision them bursting out of industrial elevators hidden underground. And I figured if I made them fit the aesthetic the board would look cooler during the game, and who doesn't want a bad ass looking game?!
Makes sense. Even if you just use them for shuttling during RttS/ Cult Ambush I can see that speeding up play an awful lot. Far easier to keep track of everything using trays too.
I really like the elevator thing as well - much more cinematic than the whole "Pink Panther", tiptoeing around the board vibe I get from regular old Cult Ambush.
). I might be misremembering, but I think the ones in the Demolition Claw were able to reroll the scatter results regardless of proximity to the formation's rockgrinders, just they had to be within a certain distance to recover charges after being thrown. Regardless, they are quite fun when aboard the formation's 'grinders. Nothing likes the prospect of 2-3 S8 AP2 pieplates with rerolls to hit and pen.
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1000pts Space Marines 
1200pts Tau 
2500pts Blood Angels 
3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades 
and 1700pts Daemons 
450pts Imperial Knights 
