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Seriously. There's no way a plasma gun is worth 15 pts anymore. Not when there are troops getting 4+ reanimation vs them. And MCs that need 40 plasma guns worth of firepower to die.

I've actually been playtesting a dynamic 40k points system that rebalances every cost based on community feedback. IMO, it should be:
- Flamers: 5
- Plasmagun: 10
- Melta: 10
- Grav-gun: 15
- Heavy Bolter: 5
- Heavy Flamer: 10
- Multi-Melta: 10
- Missile Launcher: 15 w/flakk
- Plasma Cannon: 15
- Lascannon: 20
- Grav-cannon: 40 or maybe 45

Nothing can really be drastically changed in a vacuum. That's the problem. Under the current rules, a lascannon is 10 pts tops. Maybe 5.

I wouldn't be that dramatic about it. Lascannons still have a place thanks to range and high strength. Unless you're fighting on a table with a ton of LoS blocking terrain or constant drop pods. Maybe the other problem is people are playing with too much terrain.

 NInjatactiks wrote:
I wouldn't be that dramatic about it. Lascannons still have a place thanks to range and high strength.

Low ROF completely kills them. High STR means nothing, the AP means little. MCs laugh all day and super heavies don't care either. Even the predator squadron rules can't get it done in 7th ed. And my preds are FAST.

Yeah, if you take one single lascannon it doesn't matter, but consider you can multiply the number of shots for every points saved and the fact your opponent has distance to cover before they get to you.

 NInjatactiks wrote:
Yeah, if you take one single lascannon it doesn't matter, but consider you can multiply the number of shots for every points saved and the fact your opponent has distance to cover before they get to you.

You can't get enough. You need like 30 lascannons to get anything done in 7th.

I fought 3 wraithknights at 1850 once and got it done with 4 and a few more krak missiles. Had no grav in that list at all, either.

 NInjatactiks wrote:
I fought 3 wraithknights at 1850 once and got it done with 4 and a few more krak missiles. Had no grav in that list at all, either.

Once. Try it again. The WK is considerably more vulnerable after the FAQ, but still quite undercosted. There also too much T5 w/FNP now for lascannons to be remotely scary.

Maybe I'm just a superior tactician.

 NInjatactiks wrote:
I've actually been playtesting a dynamic 40k points system that rebalances every cost based on community feedback. IMO, it should be:
- Flamers: 5
- Plasmagun: 10
- Melta: 10
- Grav-gun: 15
- Heavy Bolter: 5
- Heavy Flamer: 10
- Multi-Melta: 10
- Missile Launcher: 15 w/flakk
- Plasma Cannon: 15
- Lascannon: 20
- Grav-cannon: 40 or maybe 45

SO... are you avoiding unusual numbers (like 12) for book keeping purposes? because opening up more scoring options between 5's would balance more dynamically/accurately.

I could do that actually. I was just being more or less OCD and wanting to keep it simple, but I'm open to suggestions.

Yeah, the costs need to be more granular. Combis and storm bolters probably need a cost adjustment too.

Combi-Weapons should be 5, Pistols should be 5, and Storm Bolters need to be adjusted with their stats. I always propose S5 to make them more unique.

 NInjatactiks wrote:
I've actually been playtesting a dynamic 40k points system that rebalances every cost based on community feedback. IMO, it should be:
- Flamers: 5
- Plasmagun: 10
- Melta: 10
- Grav-gun: 15
- Heavy Bolter: 5
- Heavy Flamer: 10
- Multi-Melta: 10
- Missile Launcher: 15 w/flakk
- Plasma Cannon: 15
- Lascannon: 20
- Grav-cannon: 40 or maybe 45

Grav does not need to be repointed. People need to get over their whining about Grav and accept that it's going to be a permanent fixture in the Imperial arsenal until everything else is made to not suck.

Grav by itself is not that bad, and my original proposal was less about balancing it, and more about making it make more sense. How does increased gravity penetrate armour? Make it weaker, sure, but penetrate it?

Anyway. From a balance standpoint, it has been said enough that removing Grav amps would pretty much fix it. Salvo weapons are already a sort of nerf for most weapons (looking at you, Psycannons & Splinter cannons). Another issue might be that 5 Marines can take a Grav cannon, instead of 10, but when every Windrider can take a Scatterlaser, 1 in 5 Marines should be able to take whatever they want out of their weapon choices.

-

 Galef wrote:
Grav by itself is not that bad, and my original proposal was less about balancing it, and more about making it make more sense. How does increased gravity penetrate armour? Make it weaker, sure, but penetrate it?

Armor penetration, as a mechanic, is kind of weird.

Look at Warp Spiders' equipment or the Webber that the GSC got. Neither of them really "penetrate" the armor, but rather they use the armor against you. The same thing happens in the case of a Grav weapon.
It crushes you inside of the armor you are wearing. If you're wearing thicker layers of armor/chitin/whatever? That's more pressure being exerted on the squishy goobits of your actual body,

Anyway. From a balance standpoint, it has been said enough that removing Grav amps would pretty much fix it. Salvo weapons are already a sort of nerf for most weapons (looking at you, Psycannons & Splinter cannons). Another issue might be that 5 Marines can take a Grav cannon, instead of 10, but when every Windrider can take a Scatterlaser, 1 in 5 Marines should be able to take whatever they want out of their weapon choices.
-

I legitimately do not expect Tactical Squads to retain the ability to take Grav Cannons. I think it was a mistake that they got allowed them, both in terms of the designers' intentions and in terms of them being allowed to take it period.

I expect them to remain Centurion and Devastator only. My understanding is that the new Blood Angels stuff actually restricts them to Devastator Squads in the first place, and the Deathwatch book flatout does not get Grav Cannons period.

Honestly, I am a little annoyed that a tactical squad and even devastaors can buy a grav amp and cannon, where my admech kataphron destroyers can't. In all semblence of fluff, a fully made battle serivtor capable of fielding larger weapons that even marines can't carry and the fact that it is admech itself can seem to find a way to place a grav amp onto a model that has nearly three times as much mass as a standard marine does.

Tactical Marines also aren't relentless and you forgot that tradeoff to complain.

 Longshadow7 wrote:
Honestly, I am a little annoyed that a tactical squad and even devastaors can buy a grav amp and cannon, where my admech kataphron destroyers can't. In all semblence of fluff, a fully made battle serivtor capable of fielding larger weapons that even marines can't carry and the fact that it is admech itself can seem to find a way to place a grav amp onto a model that has nearly three times as much mass as a standard marine does.

Sure you don't get amps but you also don't pay to replace a Plasma Culverin with a Heavy Grav Cannon.
So while you don't get to reroll failed To Wound rolls natively(Canticles does that for you instead), you do get a 30" Salvo 4/6 Grav Cannon at no points cost and on a Relentless platform.

One thing I'm contemplating is:

"Gravitron:" Gravitron wounds based on the target's armor save + 1, to a minimum of 6+. For example, models with a 2+ are wounded on a 3+, models with a 3+ are wounded on a 4+, etc. When rolling to damage vehicles, the vehicle suffers a single Penetrating hit on a roll of 6." (Remove the "Immobilized" aspect)

"Mass-Dependent: Gravitron Weapons don't have a fixed number of shots. Rather, they fire "T +- X" shots, where T is the majority toughness of the target being shot at, or half the front armor of the vehicle being shot at. For example, a Grav Gun is Assault T - 3, while a Grav-Cannon is Heavy T - 1. This means a Grav Gun would fire one shot against a Tactical Squad (4 - 3 = 1), two shots against a Bike squad (5 - 3 = 1), and 5 shots against a Wraithknight."

The Grav Pistol is just a Pistol and doesn't do Mass-Dependent.
The Grav Gun is Assault T - 3
The Grav Cannon is Heavy T - 1
The Heavy Grav Cannon is Heavy T + 1

Then you remove Grav Amps from non-Centurion Grav Cannons and you're good.

My opinion, just remove the grav amp from the grav cannon.

Ya know, I never realized it before, but if Grav was str4 and used armour saves like T values, the wound roll would be exactly the same.
So why not make all Grav weapons str3, wounds against armour save, and 6's auto Pen. Basically a cleaner version of Magic Juggler's suggestion.

So against a WK or MEQ, Grav would wound on 4+ (str3 vs 3+ armour) Riptides & Teminators would be wounded on 3+ and so on. At that rate the Grav amps aren't that bad

 Galef wrote:
Ya know, I never realized it before, but if Grav was str4 and used armour saves like T values, the wound roll would be exactly the same.
So why not make all Grav weapons str3, wounds against armour save, and 6's auto Pen. Basically a cleaner version of Magic Juggler's suggestion.

So against a WK or MEQ, Grav would wound on 4+ (str3 vs 3+ armour) Riptides & Teminators would be wounded on 3+ and so on. At that rate the Grav amps aren't that bad

so basically again MEQ i would have the same kill rate as a boltgun wounding on 4s, and they still get an armor save. Might as well just take a plasma gun at that point.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Ya know, I never realized it before, but if Grav was str4 and used armour saves like T values, the wound roll would be exactly the same.
So why not make all Grav weapons str3, wounds against armour save, and 6's auto Pen. Basically a cleaner version of Magic Juggler's suggestion.

So against a WK or MEQ, Grav would wound on 4+ (str3 vs 3+ armour) Riptides & Teminators would be wounded on 3+ and so on. At that rate the Grav amps aren't that bad

so basically again MEQ i would have the same kill rate as a boltgun wounding on 4s, and they still get an armor save. Might as well just take a plasma gun at that point.

No, they would be AP2 with the change proposed above, as well as salvo 2/3 or 3/5

 Galef wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Ya know, I never realized it before, but if Grav was str4 and used armour saves like T values, the wound roll would be exactly the same.
So why not make all Grav weapons str3, wounds against armour save, and 6's auto Pen. Basically a cleaner version of Magic Juggler's suggestion.

So against a WK or MEQ, Grav would wound on 4+ (str3 vs 3+ armour) Riptides & Teminators would be wounded on 3+ and so on. At that rate the Grav amps aren't that bad

so basically again MEQ i would have the same kill rate as a boltgun wounding on 4s, and they still get an armor save. Might as well just take a plasma gun at that point.

No, they would be AP2 with the change proposed above, as well as salvo 2/3 or 3/5

Ok so we are still saying they are AP 2 ok the way you had it worded they would still get an armor save.