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 EnTyme wrote:

The issue isn't that he Riptide is too killy, or that it's too durable, it's that it is both for such a ridiculously low cost. Anything that can fill as many rolls as a Riptide can while taking as many hits as it can should have a commiserate points cost.

No, the cost is not that relevant. Problem with Riptide is that it breaks the unwritten rules which are supposed to separate Infantry, MC and Vehicles. Riptide combines all of the upsides with none of the downsides. It matters little if it costed 1000 points, it would be just equally silly.

It is if you gave Marneus Calgar a pistol with same stats as Railgun. People would call it broken, no? But what if you made the pistol really expensive? No, that would not help, people would still hate it, and with a reason. Because such a piece of wargear would "break the fiction", the internal logic which dictates the game.

Backfire wrote:
Because such a piece of wargear would "break the fiction", the internal logic which dictates the game.

The Riptide however is more believable than Calgar with a Railgun; it's a demonstration of the Tau's incredible technological advantage and their willingness to innovate and create new designs, unlike the older and more advanced Eldar and Necrontyr. That is is an absolute monster with very few weaknesses suits it quite well as the forerunner of Tau technological prowess. In fact, its biggest weakness is the pilot, and how much they dare to charge up its Nova Reactor, knowing full well the dark matter in it has the capability of ripping them and the suit apart.

That being said, I think the Riptide would be much improved if it was a Walker. Sadly, the tunnel vision of the 40k game makes porting it over to that class of unit properly impossible.

 General Annoyance wrote:

Backfire wrote:
Because such a piece of wargear would "break the fiction", the internal logic which dictates the game.

The Riptide however is more believable than Calgar with a Railgun; it's a demonstration of the Tau's incredible technological advantage and their willingness to innovate and create new designs, unlike the older and more advanced Eldar and Necrontyr. That is is an absolute monster with very few weaknesses suits it quite well as the forerunner of Tau technological prowess. In fact, its biggest weakness is the pilot, and how much they dare to charge up its Nova Reactor, knowing full well the dark matter in it has the capability of ripping them and the suit apart.

So, why it is the Riptide only manifestation of those awesome Tau technologies? Why don't they apply those technologies to a say, tank? Or a flyer?

Backfire wrote:


So, why it is the Riptide only manifestation of those awesome Tau technologies? Why don't they apply those technologies to a say, tank? Or a flyer?

It's the pinnacle of Tau technology - their masterpiece if you will. It is an experimental design that uses materials and science not previously used in Tau equipment. The Earth Caste simply haven't had the time to apply the success of the Riptide to previous technology within the roughly Terran year it's seen combat; hell, they can't even make more Riptides at the moment, even if they wanted to - the material that makes up the nanocrystalline alloy armour plates is extremely difficult to obtain in the vast volumes needed to create a single suit.

The Riptide hasn't even left the final prototype phase either - there's still the question on how to make the Nova Reactor more stable without compromising the power that the suit needs from it, as a regular reactor can't sustain an XV104's systems. Only once this phase is complete can it be mass produced and allow other technologies to be built from its designs.

It's a similar story to the Stealth tech that pioneered the XV22 suit, and now the XV95. This is just another level of their competence - the highest level they've ever achieved.

Voted other: nonexistent. The Riptide should be deleted (along with the Stormsurge) and replaced by tanks and aircraft. Tau are supposed to have Starship Troopers style power armor, not idiotic giant anime robots.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Gamgee has been a huge fan of Tau for as long as I can remember.

My mistake, sorry about that.

My biggest problem with the riptide is the price compared to the dakka it can put out and how hard it is to kill.

180pts means that it is equivalent to 13 Lootas.

In almost any situation which would you rather have in your army? a Riptide or 13 lootas?

The riptide can't put out as much dakka....depending, but it can boost its weapons with Markerlights and much more importantly, its a T6 5wound 2+ 5++ 5+++ platform compared to 13 lootas who are T4 13wounds(Combined) 6+ Armor save platform.

I think most Tau MC and GMC are in the same boat as Eldar Wraith Knights, Great models but HORRIBLY under priced.

I'll only be okay with Riptide nerfs if all the deathstars in the game are nerfed to pieces and that means super friends (space marines) the top list in the meta by a mile. Also tons of Eldar nerfs.

Tau are a mid tier army (the top of it). They don't need nerfs they need buffs. Or all the top ones need big nerfs. Either way.

http://variancehammer.com/2016/06/08/whats-wrong-with-the-tau/

I'm okay with Riptide nerfs if you can come up with another way to keep my entire list from folding to two squads of Wraiths.

 Peregrine wrote:
Voted other: nonexistent. The Riptide should be deleted (along with the Stormsurge) and replaced by tanks and aircraft. Tau are supposed to have Starship Troopers style power armor, not idiotic giant anime robots.

Care to explain to little old me why this is the case? I'm no anime fan, but I like the absolute nonsense that the Earth Caste have come up with as a point in case of the Tau being willing to innovate.

I voted Linebreaker. The Tau already have Artillery and Skirmisher super suits, they have no need of a mulit purpose do what thou will suit.
It also needs to become a vehicle, say 12/12/10 with 4HP and a 5++ save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 General Annoyance wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Voted other: nonexistent. The Riptide should be deleted (along with the Stormsurge) and replaced by tanks and aircraft. Tau are supposed to have Starship Troopers style power armor, not idiotic giant anime robots.

Care to explain to little old me why this is the case? I'm no anime fan, but I like the absolute nonsense that the Earth Caste have come up with as a point in case of the Tau being willing to innovate.

The old Tau fluff basically had it that the Crisis and Broadside suits where the largest as the Tau realised that larger suits would be difficult to build and maintan and would ultimately be a waste of recources as they would go against the tau ethos of mobile warfare.

 master of ordinance wrote:


The old Tau fluff basically had it that the Crisis and Broadside suits where the largest as the Tau realised that larger suits would be difficult to build and maintain and would ultimately be a waste of resources as they would go against the tau ethos of mobile warfare.

I get that entirely - the Riptide on paper shouldn't fit into the idea of Mont'ka or Kauyon; in fact, early tests of the suit using a regular fusion reactor used to power other Tau tech proved the suit to be clunky and unresponsive, useless to the Tau in other words.

However, the latest XV104 prototype is just as mobile as a Crisis Suit thanks to the Nova Reactor that was created for it, while still being able to hold onto its heavy weaponry and armour. Crisis Suits are good linebreakers, but are easily destroyed by small arms fire. The Riptide plugs that flaw in the Mont'ka strategy.

It was an idea that shouldn't have worked, but ended up working incredibly, again testifying to the Tau's willingness to innovate regarding warfare.

The problem with the Riptide, and Tau as a whole is not that they are overpowered but that they are simply NOT fun to play a game against. The riptide is a key component of that.

Most armies can be quite entertaining in 2 of the 4 phases of the game. My KDK for example have an exciting movement phase and assault phase. My Admech have good shooting and movement as well. SM have important movement (dropping units, positioning tanks etc) and shooting and even into the psychic phase. I find that MOST (not all armies cough eldar cough) follow this.

Tau on the other hand not only DOMINATE their turn but also take away phases of your own turn as well. For exmaple in a Tau players turn they have important movement with suits jumping and transports going around. They have a HUGE shooting phase, and finally the assault phase. The assault phase is huge to the Tau for suits. They dominate 3/4 of their turn.

Ok you have suffered through the HUGE turn that is the tau player and its finally your turn. You start movement and decide to deepstrike some guys. BAM the Tau get ANOTHER shooting phase and you lose one of yours. Well now that your army has been shot to pieces in YOUR OWN TURN its time to do the next part of your army. You get through shooting or psychic and thats fine and finally its time to ram some of your specialty units down their throat. BAM! ANOTHER TAU SHOOTING PHASE.

All my games against TAU are exhausting. They dominate 3 phases of the game in their turn, dominate 2 phases in my turn and are SUPER durable so it happens through most of the entire game.

Usually I fare well vs tau but at the end I am just glad the game is over. It always seems like the Tau player got to roll all the dice and spent 75% of the games time actually playing while I just got to pick up models.

I dont think the riptide is that nasty in a vaccum. I can usually gun it down, it just happens to be the poster child for this frustration that players feel in Tau games.

So, no the Tau and riptide are not OP, but they are simply not fun to play and in this game no one likes that.

jade_angel wrote:
I absolutely agree that the EWO is too much, for too cheap.

As long as null deployment is a thing, EWO is A-OK.

Turn it into what it should be, a walker vehicle with 12/12/12 armor (thus truly inmune to small arms fire, but heavy weaponry will kill it) with extra mobility in order to represent how agile it is.

Collect the flood of Tau tears, bottle it, and sell it as salty bathwater. Win win win.

PS: on the other hand, Peregrine has a point. Riptides should have never existed in the first place. They're the result of GW missing the point about what Tau were supposed to represent in the first place.

 Korinov wrote:
Turn it into what it should be, a walker vehicle with 12/12/12 armor (thus truly inmune to small arms fire, but heavy weaponry will kill it) with extra mobility in order to represent how agile it is.

Agreed, but how exactly to add its Jet Pack and Shield into that unit type is another question.

PS: on the other hand, Peregrine has a point. Riptides should have never existed in the first place. They're the result of GW missing the point about what Tau were supposed to represent in the first place.

Again I'd disagree - it's a testimony to the Tau's willingness to innovate and adapt in a short space of time, something even the more technologically advanced Eldar and Necrons can't do. It is definitely one of their defining characteristics that makes them unique in the 40k universe, past the "hurr they're space communists"

Except it isn't meant to be just immune to small arms fire. It was meant to be highly resistant to as much fire as possible to break through defense lines. Which it is highly successful at.

It's role isn't to be immune to small arms fire, but bigger weaponry typically used in fixed defensive roles along Imperum hive city walls. TO which it is a great success.

Tau adapt. They do so more than even the Tyranids to all things. Look how fast they started making Titans to compete with the other races. Now FW is planning a whole line of Tau titans since they sell so good. The Ta'unar drew oceans of tears despite not being all that good since overpowered Grav counters it. The weapon ruining the game more than anything.

As it turns out, the Ritpide is largely immune to lascannons. Pretty innovative, that. I'd just like them to pay for it.

 Gamgee wrote:
It's role isn't to be immune to small arms fire, but bigger weaponry typically used in fixed defensive roles along Imperum hive city walls. TO which it is a great success .

Its role is the same as a Crisis Suit, but with the addition of heavier weaponry and thicker armour; until the Riptide Crisis Suits were the Tau's go to for linebreaking and support as part of Mont'ka, but suffered during the Third Sphere of Expansion when they could take down their target (say a Leman Russ Tank squadron) but then get gunned down by a volley of Lasgun fire from the Guardsmen behind. The Riptide can take out the tanks, and probably the infantry straight after too, with only the former being any sort of threat, if they saw the Riptide coming that is...

Yeah and until then the Crisis suit was enough to do the same things as the Riptide, but the IoM changed all of that.

 Gamgee wrote:
Yeah and until then the Crisis suit was enough to do the same things as the Riptide, but the IoM changed all of that.

The Imperium didn't change, it just applied more force, combined with knowing more about the Tau and their strategy than during the Second Sphere of Expansion. The Crisis Suit still fulfils its role better than the Riptide in some areas, its size and crew requirements being the primary one; Riptides need an experienced Shas'rve to pilot them (a title that can only be acquired by piloting Crisis armour), and are in a very small quantity, and require a longer and more resource consuming manufacturing process than Crisis Battlesuits. In addition, they're much larger than a Crisis Suit, which can be issue in some environments, meaning that, even if the Empire could build more Riptides, they'd never phase out the Crisis Suits

I mean before contact with the IoM the crisis suit and broadside were overkill for most races we conquered. More than suitable since all the Xenos encountered couldn't even match what we did have.

Are they only in small quantities? The new Tau books make it seem like they have sufficient numbers to throw around dozens for almost every fight and crisis suits are spammed even more than the Riptides. With them being able to be taken in squads I would like to think that represents an increase in availability from a fluff perspective. Compared to Crisis suits they are "rare" but I would say overall there is more of them now than ever. Same with crisis suits.

You are correct about the crisis suit being great in small environs. I didn't ever say they would phase it out. I would actually like to see a next generation crisis suit or something meant to take its place in the future if they can get resources to make enough of them.

 Gamgee wrote:
I mean before contact with the IoM the crisis suit and broadside were overkill for most races we conquered. More than suitable since all the Xenos encountered couldn't even match what we did have.

Ah, my mistake, I misinterpreted your statement.

Are they only in small quantities?

Absolutely; the element needed to create the nanocrystalline armour is very hard to find, and even harder to extract in the vast quantity needed to create a single suit. It's also still in its experimental phase, with work needed on its Nova Reactor to make it more stable and safe to pilot. And before the suit can even go to battle, it needs a Shas'rve to pilot it, which is more difficult than acquiring a Shas'ui by a long margin.

Their rarity is poorly expressed in the game - that needs to be changed most, imo. Fluff wise, they are all fighting in the same area of space, so I guess a Coalition or even a Battle could deploy about a dozen at once depending on circumstances.

You are correct about the crisis suit being great in small environs. I didn't ever say they would phase it out. I would actually like to see a next generation crisis suit or something meant to take its place in the future if they can get resources to make enough of them.

I just added the point about the Crisis Suit to demonstrate to others the need for Crisis Suits before the question of "well why don't they just replace XV8s with XV104's" pops up. There are technically next generations in the form of the XV9 and the XV89, 84 and 81, though the latter 3 are more modifications to the chassis of the XV8 rather than full on evolutions.

Linebreaker.
But please drop the 2+ 5+, MC, supa cool rulez lol.

I mean the Carnifex is THE linebreaker of pretty much any 40k faction and dosent get those rules. Hmmmm.

Just needs a decent mini nerf to it and go from there.
But yeah its an LB unit imho.

 Peregrine wrote:
Voted other: nonexistent. The Riptide should be deleted (along with the Stormsurge) and replaced by tanks and aircraft. Tau are supposed to have Starship Troopers style power armor, not idiotic giant anime robots.

I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion. Tau have always had the anime aesthetic going on.

General Annoyance wrote:Agreed, but how exactly to add its Jet Pack and Shield into that unit type is another question.

I don't think it would be much of a hassle honestly.

Again I'd disagree - it's a testimony to the Tau's willingness to innovate and adapt in a short space of time, something even the more technologically advanced Eldar and Necrons can't do. It is definitely one of their defining characteristics that makes them unique in the 40k universe, past the "hurr they're space communists"

No, it's merely a testimony to GW's willingness to sell shinier, bigger and more expensive kits.

When Tau were introduced, I understood them mostly as a practical, efficient and rational army, meant to represent some sort of current-day high-tech army in opposition to WW2 soviet army (Imperial Guard) and shock-and-awe Spess Mehreens. That means no stupid and counter-intuitive designs (Stormsurge lol) and overall an army based more on principles of efficiency and less on rule of cool. The "animeish" look was supposed to provide that rule of cool part.

Sadly over the years, as it always happens with GW, someone missed the point, and now we have impossibly tough huge-ass robots strolling around and shooting entire squads to dust in a single phase. Hooray.

Gamgee wrote:Except it isn't meant to be just immune to small arms fire. It was meant to be highly resistant to as much fire as possible to break through defense lines. Which it is highly successful at.

It's role isn't to be immune to small arms fire, but bigger weaponry typically used in fixed defensive roles along Imperum hive city walls. TO which it is a great success.

Tau adapt. They do so more than even the Tyranids to all things. Look how fast they started making Titans to compete with the other races. Now FW is planning a whole line of Tau titans since they sell so good. The Ta'unar drew oceans of tears despite not being all that good since overpowered Grav counters it. The weapon ruining the game more than anything.

Look, I understand Riptide is a pretty cool guy, eh kills muhreens and doesn't afraid of anything. But if you don't mind, let's give it some weaknesses ok? Because when you start complaining about other armies' cheese and how much Riptide is needed to balance that for tau, my Chaos Space Marines don't know if they're sadder or angrier.

How about make a failed nova charge do 5 wounds. Makes using it a real risk.

 mew28 wrote:
How about make a failed nova charge do 5 wounds. Makes using it a real risk.

Then there would be absolutely no point in even using it. There's a reason CSM players don't like the Champion of Chaos rule and the subsequent Boon table.

I think 3+ armor would basically fix every issue. Now small arms are almost twice as good. Krak missiles work again. Power swords work again. Maybe cap the nova shield at 4++ to put it in line with the DK. Done. Keep the big scary guns, because Tau are about big scary guns. They're just not about immortal units.

Frankly it should be a vehicle. From there, things begin to feel simpler