Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Korinov wrote:

General Annoyance wrote:Agreed, but how exactly to add its Jet Pack and Shield into that unit type is another question.

I don't think it would be much of a hassle honestly.

Again I'd disagree - it's a testimony to the Tau's willingness to innovate and adapt in a short space of time, something even the more technologically advanced Eldar and Necrons can't do. It is definitely one of their defining characteristics that makes them unique in the 40k universe, past the "hurr they're space communists"

No, it's merely a testimony to GW's willingness to sell shinier, bigger and more expensive kits.

When Tau were introduced, I understood them mostly as a practical, efficient and rational army, meant to represent some sort of current-day high-tech army in opposition to WW2 soviet army (Imperial Guard) and shock-and-awe Spess Mehreens. That means no stupid and counter-intuitive designs (Stormsurge lol) and overall an army based more on principles of efficiency and less on rule of cool. The "animeish" look was supposed to provide that rule of cool part.

Sadly over the years, as it always happens with GW, someone missed the point, and now we have impossibly tough huge-ass robots strolling around and shooting entire squads to dust in a single phase. Hooray.

Gamgee wrote:Except it isn't meant to be just immune to small arms fire. It was meant to be highly resistant to as much fire as possible to break through defense lines. Which it is highly successful at.

It's role isn't to be immune to small arms fire, but bigger weaponry typically used in fixed defensive roles along Imperum hive city walls. TO which it is a great success.

Tau adapt. They do so more than even the Tyranids to all things. Look how fast they started making Titans to compete with the other races. Now FW is planning a whole line of Tau titans since they sell so good. The Ta'unar drew oceans of tears despite not being all that good since overpowered Grav counters it. The weapon ruining the game more than anything.

Look, I understand Riptide is a pretty cool guy, eh kills muhreens and doesn't afraid of anything. But if you don't mind, let's give it some weaknesses ok? Because when you start complaining about other armies' cheese and how much Riptide is needed to balance that for tau, my Chaos Space Marines don't know if they're sadder or angrier.

Here's my official Gamgee complaints and suggestions box. Feel free to slip it in. http://pbfcomics.com/223/ Also doubles as a Tau complaint box.

 General Annoyance wrote:

Backfire wrote:


So, why it is the Riptide only manifestation of those awesome Tau technologies? Why don't they apply those technologies to a say, tank? Or a flyer?

It's the pinnacle of Tau technology - their masterpiece if you will. It is an experimental design that uses materials and science not previously used in Tau equipment. The Earth Caste simply haven't had the time to apply the success of the Riptide to previous technology within the roughly Terran year it's seen combat; hell, they can't even make more Riptides at the moment, even if they wanted to - the material that makes up the nanocrystalline alloy armour plates is extremely difficult to obtain in the vast volumes needed to create a single suit.

The Riptide hasn't even left the final prototype phase either - there's still the question on how to make the Nova Reactor more stable without compromising the power that the suit needs from it, as a regular reactor can't sustain an XV104's systems. Only once this phase is complete can it be mass produced and allow other technologies to be built from its designs.

It's a similar story to the Stealth tech that pioneered the XV22 suit, and now the XV95. This is just another level of their competence - the highest level they've ever achieved.

If that were at all relevant, it would be considered a "Unique" unit-type, thus limiting it to 1 per army. It isn't, so it doesn't.

 Psienesis wrote:

 General Annoyance wrote:

Backfire wrote:


So, why it is the Riptide only manifestation of those awesome Tau technologies? Why don't they apply those technologies to a say, tank? Or a flyer?

It's the pinnacle of Tau technology - their masterpiece if you will. It is an experimental design that uses materials and science not previously used in Tau equipment. The Earth Caste simply haven't had the time to apply the success of the Riptide to previous technology within the roughly Terran year it's seen combat; hell, they can't even make more Riptides at the moment, even if they wanted to - the material that makes up the nanocrystalline alloy armour plates is extremely difficult to obtain in the vast volumes needed to create a single suit.

The Riptide hasn't even left the final prototype phase either - there's still the question on how to make the Nova Reactor more stable without compromising the power that the suit needs from it, as a regular reactor can't sustain an XV104's systems. Only once this phase is complete can it be mass produced and allow other technologies to be built from its designs.

It's a similar story to the Stealth tech that pioneered the XV22 suit, and now the XV95. This is just another level of their competence - the highest level they've ever achieved.

If that were at all relevant, it would be considered a "Unique" unit-type, thus limiting it to 1 per army. It isn't, so it doesn't.

fluff =/= rules

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 General Annoyance wrote:

Backfire wrote:


So, why it is the Riptide only manifestation of those awesome Tau technologies? Why don't they apply those technologies to a say, tank? Or a flyer?

It's the pinnacle of Tau technology - their masterpiece if you will. It is an experimental design that uses materials and science not previously used in Tau equipment. The Earth Caste simply haven't had the time to apply the success of the Riptide to previous technology within the roughly Terran year it's seen combat; hell, they can't even make more Riptides at the moment, even if they wanted to - the material that makes up the nanocrystalline alloy armour plates is extremely difficult to obtain in the vast volumes needed to create a single suit.

The Riptide hasn't even left the final prototype phase either - there's still the question on how to make the Nova Reactor more stable without compromising the power that the suit needs from it, as a regular reactor can't sustain an XV104's systems. Only once this phase is complete can it be mass produced and allow other technologies to be built from its designs.

It's a similar story to the Stealth tech that pioneered the XV22 suit, and now the XV95. This is just another level of their competence - the highest level they've ever achieved.

If that were at all relevant, it would be considered a "Unique" unit-type, thus limiting it to 1 per army. It isn't, so it doesn't.

fluff =/= rules

That is exactly my point. In its current incarnation, the Riptide is both a jack-of-all-trades and a master of those trades as well, at an incredibly affordable points cost. There's a narrow selection of weapons available to a narrow selection of armies that can perform well against it, but requires the Tau player to make some pretty grievous mistakes in order to deploy them... and even then it's not a sure bet.

Sadly, i agree with those who said that the riptide should be deleted. Sadly because I play Tau and use 1 of them and (a) Stormsurge. The Tigershark should have become a GW model rather than FW, and already was acceptable as a Tau fire platform.

 carldooley wrote:
Sadly, i agree with those who said that the riptide should be deleted. Sadly because I play Tau and use 1 of them and (a) Stormsurge. The Tigershark should have become a GW model rather than FW, and already was acceptable as a Tau fire platform.

Army options, or more specifically - models - should never be deleted. Turning a persons cash and time expenditure into a useless piece of painted plastic is horribly detrimental to the customer base. Remember all the rage when AoS dropped and invalidated entire WHFB armies? Thats just a bad idea.

Are we deleting WK's, Knights, and Grav Centurions too? Those are far more detrimental to the game as a whole.

I'll be the first to jump on my soap box and say that the Riptide Wing and the ability to have up to three Riptides in a squad is a bad move, but just erasing it from the game, I am adamantly against.

 Korinov wrote:
I don't think it would be much of a hassle honestly.

What do you propose then? A special rule, perhaps?

No, it's merely a testimony to GW's willingness to sell shinier, bigger and more expensive kits.

When Tau were introduced, I understood them mostly as a practical, efficient and rational army, meant to represent some sort of current-day high-tech army in opposition to WW2 soviet army (Imperial Guard) and shock-and-awe Spess Mehreens. That means no stupid and counter-intuitive designs (Stormsurge lol) and overall an army based more on principles of efficiency and less on rule of cool. The "animeish" look was supposed to provide that rule of cool part.

Sadly over the years, as it always happens with GW, someone missed the point, and now we have impossibly tough huge-ass robots strolling around and shooting entire squads to dust in a single phase. Hooray.

You understand them right, but aren't seeing how their new tech fits into this philosophy. The Stormsurge is not counter intuitive at all - the Tau needed a Titan Killer in the Third Sphere, which could defend itself and go anywhere while also supporting an extremely bulky weapon. Thus the KV128 was born. The bipedal design means it can support the weight of the Pulse Driver Cannon, while also being able to traverse a wide variety of environments without bogging down like a tank would. And they can't simply strap the Cannon onto a Grav Tank frame - chances are it wouldn't be able to fly due to weight and lack of stability.

Tau technology is actually very efficient and practical when you examine it. While the Tau are placing an advanced Titan Hunter gun onto an all terrain vehicle, the Imperium just gives an ancient machine they don't understand with a Cathedral strapped on top of it a few kicks and sends it into battle. The Tau Empire doesn't even field any Titan sized weapon systems, outside of perhaps the KX139.

I'm not an anime fan either, so I'm not blinded by any rule of cool these new designs bring. I still giggle when I see a Stormsurge.

 Psienesis wrote:
If that were at all relevant, it would be considered a "Unique" unit-type, thus limiting it to 1 per army. It isn't, so it doesn't.

In other words, it doesn't translate into the game, therefore all lore for the unit is defunct. That's worse than the people who take the stance of "there is really no canon in 40k". Also:

 General Annoyance wrote:
The game ignores the fact that it's an experimental design that, at best, has only seen field tests for around a year. It hasn't been massed produced, and often hasn't even been seen by a some Imperial forces fighting on the Eastern Fringe. Make these damn things limited to 1 per army for Christs sake. That, or a limit like "1 per 1000 points".

 General Annoyance wrote:
Their rarity is poorly expressed in the game - that needs to be changed most, imo.

I'm with everyone here saying that it needs a force limit of some kind, and probably a points increase. You can't hold the lore design of the thing against it in the game; its weakness is the Nova Reactor and the low number of units that actually exist, and I think these should be addressed accordingly in the game.

 carldooley wrote:
Sadly, i agree with those who said that the riptide should be deleted. Sadly because I play Tau and use 1 of them and (a) Stormsurge. The Tigershark should have become a GW model rather than FW, and already was acceptable as a Tau fire platform.

But the Tigershark is a flyer - how can it be considered to be a fire platform at all?

And no, deletion is a terrible idea, for the reasons I've listed above about why it's practical, and also the fact that the thing can be fixed with some more limitations/points increase

G.A

I use Riptides as bullet sponges and basically a distraction Canifex. Their weapons are potentially deadly so they are a threat but their biggest benefit is that they are durable and not abysmal in CC. I use them to draw fire from my other units such as Crisis Suits, Broadsides, or even Fire Warriors which tend to actually do more total damage but can't survive return fire nearly as well. They are also good for going after objectives before the board is cleared but they still aren't that great against dedicated melee units but they can be great at kiting with their nova charged 4d6 thrust move.

 Vryce wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
Sadly, i agree with those who said that the riptide should be deleted. Sadly because I play Tau and use 1 of them and (a) Stormsurge. The Tigershark should have become a GW model rather than FW, and already was acceptable as a Tau fire platform.

Army options, or more specifically - models - should never be deleted. Turning a persons cash and time expenditure into a useless piece of painted plastic is horribly detrimental to the customer base. Remember all the rage when AoS dropped and invalidated entire WHFB armies? Thats just a bad idea.

Are we deleting WK's, Knights, and Grav Centurions too? Those are far more detrimental to the game as a whole.

I'll be the first to jump on my soap box and say that the Riptide Wing and the ability to have up to three Riptides in a squad is a bad move, but just erasing it from the game, I am adamantly against.

It would be a good thing for the balance of the game. Just give them the squat treatment.

 mew28 wrote:

It would be a good thing for the balance of the game. Just give them the squat treatment.

Kill any background that has problems in the game, rather than just trying to fix the problems it has interacting on the tabletop.

This train of argument I just don't understand...

In all honesty it wouldn't be the first time a unit has been squatted.

I would suspect however next edition tau, eldar and necron will be hit with the nerf hammer.... hard...

The current edition has squatted entire builds, characters and units already, so there's more than enough precedent, even without going all the way back to the army that coined the term.

 Psienesis wrote:
The current edition has squatted entire builds, characters and units already, so there's more than enough precedent, even without going all the way back to the army that coined the term.

Squatting means writing fluff saying that the unit was killed/discontinued/destroyed/vanished and thus no longer exists. It doesn't mean not creating a codex entry for them; Guardsman Marbo is not dead just because he doesn't feature in the AM Codex.

 General Annoyance wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The current edition has squatted entire builds, characters and units already, so there's more than enough precedent, even without going all the way back to the army that coined the term.

Squatting means writing fluff saying that the unit was killed/discontinued/destroyed/vanished and thus no longer exists. It doesn't mean not creating a codex entry for them; Guardsman Marbo is not dead just because he doesn't feature in the AM Codex.

I know what "squatting" means. The Squats themselves still exist in the setting, they just don't exist in the current tabletop game. Neither does Sly Marbo. If he's not in the Codex, he's not playable. Thus, he's been Squatted.

The Squats still exist in the setting, but as a dead entity that can by no means be represented in current 999.M41 40k. Marbo however, along with all the other units that didn't recieve Codex entries, can and do exist in that time; they just can't be fielded.

By your logic, anything that doesn't have a Codex representation is dead in the 40k universe. Bye bye Adeptus Arbites + everything Forge World has discontinued.

From Lexicanum:

At first the disappearance of the Squat army from the game rules was explained by a background story describing that the race had been devoured by the Tyranids (in effect this still kept them as part of the background). The story went that the Squat race had been virtually destroyed, and the few remaining Homeworlds were annexed by the Imperium over the hundreds of years after the attacks. Only a few scattered and embittered remnants of Squats survive throughout the Imperium.
Currently however Games Workshop have taken the stance that the Squats never existed - older republished novels have been edited to remove all references of Squats. In other cases books have not been republished due to the stories featuring Squat characters or other obsolete races. However, the Warhammer 40,000 6th Edition Rulebook explicitly names them as an abhuman race officially recognized by the Imperium

I have yet to see "And Marbo was then shot in the face by a Black Legionnaire with a Meltagun". Until then, he exists in the lore and is 100% relevant to anything that could tie into his background, even if he doesn't exist as a Codex entry.

The Squats were Squatted; Marbo was discontinued. Big difference in terminology: Marbo could re-enter the game in the future, Squats cannot.

To add to others points, the "Huge Suit" kick the Tau seem to be on is really antithetical to what they originally were. They were a less numerous but qualitatively superior version of the Imperial Guard with the "small" suits to give them some flair. Mostly they were built around mechanized infantry and tanks working in concert with the specialist small suits to deliver powerful blows at a specific point, a mobile gunline with a powerful but vulnerable hammer element.

At this point they've become a "Gundam and Special Rules" army, which is rather disappointing.

 mew28 wrote:

 Vryce wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
Sadly, i agree with those who said that the riptide should be deleted. Sadly because I play Tau and use 1 of them and (a) Stormsurge. The Tigershark should have become a GW model rather than FW, and already was acceptable as a Tau fire platform.

Army options, or more specifically - models - should never be deleted. Turning a persons cash and time expenditure into a useless piece of painted plastic is horribly detrimental to the customer base. Remember all the rage when AoS dropped and invalidated entire WHFB armies? Thats just a bad idea.

Are we deleting WK's, Knights, and Grav Centurions too? Those are far more detrimental to the game as a whole.

I'll be the first to jump on my soap box and say that the Riptide Wing and the ability to have up to three Riptides in a squad is a bad move, but just erasing it from the game, I am adamantly against.

It would be a good thing for the balance of the game. Just give them the squat treatment.

Are we deleting Eldar, too? They are pretty bad for the balance of the game.

@ Psienesis - This edition has left out characters that GW doesn't produce models for, not deleting a unit entry for a model currently in the range. And army builds may have been rendered obsolete, or non-competetive, but only because the rules for certain units/models were changed - not because they just erased a unit from the game.

 Korinov wrote:
Turn it into what it should be, a walker vehicle with 12/12/12 armor (thus truly inmune to small arms fire, but heavy weaponry will kill it) with extra mobility in order to represent how agile it is.

Collect the flood of Tau tears, bottle it, and sell it as salty bathwater. Win win win.

That's the spirit tears for the tear throne!

Don't hate becoming a reasonable walker, or other something to balance. But if it becomes a walker the. The Nova reactor needs to be "perfected"

Wow all these tears in one place I can't possibly drink them all. Riptides are fine in the current meta where we have so many powerful armies rolling around, and the funny thing is that Riptides haven't been able to elevate the Tau to a top tier army, so I guess the Tau need the rest of their army to be made stronger in order to nerf the riptide.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
In all honesty it wouldn't be the first time a unit has been squatted.

I would suspect however next edition tau, eldar and necron will be hit with the nerf hammer.... hard...

Everybody suspected this when the 7th ed codexes came out. Didn't happen then.

 Vryce wrote:

 mew28 wrote:

 Vryce wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
Sadly, i agree with those who said that the riptide should be deleted. Sadly because I play Tau and use 1 of them and (a) Stormsurge. The Tigershark should have become a GW model rather than FW, and already was acceptable as a Tau fire platform.

Army options, or more specifically - models - should never be deleted. Turning a persons cash and time expenditure into a useless piece of painted plastic is horribly detrimental to the customer base. Remember all the rage when AoS dropped and invalidated entire WHFB armies? Thats just a bad idea.

Are we deleting WK's, Knights, and Grav Centurions too? Those are far more detrimental to the game as a whole.

I'll be the first to jump on my soap box and say that the Riptide Wing and the ability to have up to three Riptides in a squad is a bad move, but just erasing it from the game, I am adamantly against.

It would be a good thing for the balance of the game. Just give them the squat treatment.

Are we deleting Eldar, too? They are pretty bad for the balance of the game.

@ Psienesis - This edition has left out characters that GW doesn't produce models for, not deleting a unit entry for a model currently in the range. And army builds may have been rendered obsolete, or non-competetive, but only because the rules for certain units/models were changed - not because they just erased a unit from the game.

Depending on FW allowance in one's playgroup, the IG artillery model range would beg to differ.

 Vryce wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
Sadly, i agree with those who said that the riptide should be deleted. Sadly because I play Tau and use 1 of them and (a) Stormsurge. The Tigershark should have become a GW model rather than FW, and already was acceptable as a Tau fire platform.

Army options, or more specifically - models - should never be deleted. Turning a persons cash and time expenditure into a useless piece of painted plastic is horribly detrimental to the customer base. Remember all the rage when AoS dropped and invalidated entire WHFB armies? Thats just a bad idea.

Are we deleting WK's, Knights, and Grav Centurions too? Those are far more detrimental to the game as a whole.

I'll be the first to jump on my soap box and say that the Riptide Wing and the ability to have up to three Riptides in a squad is a bad move, but just erasing it from the game, I am adamantly against.

Well, the Knight and the Riptide at least have their aesthetic. I don't think people would miss centurions

Said this, I agree with Martel: perhaps just change the armour save to 3+ would help.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vankraken wrote:
I use Riptides as bullet sponges and basically a distraction Canifex. Their weapons are potentially deadly so they are a threat but their biggest benefit is that they are durable and not abysmal in CC. I use them to draw fire from my other units such as Crisis Suits, Broadsides, or even Fire Warriors which tend to actually do more total damage but can't survive return fire nearly as well. They are also good for going after objectives before the board is cleared but they still aren't that great against dedicated melee units but they can be great at kiting with their nova charged 4d6 thrust move.

Is just too much stuff for that durability for that point cost.

General Annoyance wrote:What do you propose then? A special rule, perhaps?

Jet Pack Walker Vehicle, and leave the shield as it is? (5++ save iirc)

You understand them right, but aren't seeing how their new tech fits into this philosophy. The Stormsurge is not counter intuitive at all - the Tau needed a Titan Killer in the Third Sphere, which could defend itself and go anywhere while also supporting an extremely bulky weapon. Thus the KV128 was born. The bipedal design means it can support the weight of the Pulse Driver Cannon, while also being able to traverse a wide variety of environments without bogging down like a tank would. And they can't simply strap the Cannon onto a Grav Tank frame - chances are it wouldn't be able to fly due to weight and lack of stability.

Tau technology is actually very efficient and practical when you examine it. While the Tau are placing an advanced Titan Hunter gun onto an all terrain vehicle, the Imperium just gives an ancient machine they don't understand with a Cathedral strapped on top of it a few kicks and sends it into battle. The Tau Empire doesn't even field any Titan sized weapon systems, outside of perhaps the KX139.

I'm not an anime fan either, so I'm not blinded by any rule of cool these new designs bring. I still giggle when I see a Stormsurge.

The bipedal design to me means mostly two things: 1) it will need an incredible amount of energy to move around, and even if 40k is for all purposes a space fantasy setting, I understood Tau as precisely the faction that would stick more to a "sci-fy" vibe (meaning "no huge ass mecha", and 2) it will go flying backwards the very first moment it fires its ridiculously oversized gun.

Just for the record, I don't like Wraithknights either. And regarding the Imperium's titans, I don't like them in 40k. Similarly, while I consider the Stormsurge ridiculous, I wouldn't have batted an eye if it had been introduced in Epic.

Vaktathi wrote:To add to others points, the "Huge Suit" kick the Tau seem to be on is really antithetical to what they originally were. They were a less numerous but qualitatively superior version of the Imperial Guard with the "small" suits to give them some flair. Mostly they were built around mechanized infantry and tanks working in concert with the specialist small suits to deliver powerful blows at a specific point, a mobile gunline with a powerful but vulnerable hammer element.

At this point they've become a "Gundam and Special Rules" army, which is rather disappointing.

Agreed. For me it's quite painful because I was precisely one of those who thought Tau were a nice addition to the game back in 3rd edition. I was quite young back then so it's possible their "animeish" design had a positive influence on how I saw them, but anyway I liked what they brought to the setting. Now it's sad to think how they've degenerated into a Gundam Snowflake army.

pumaman1 wrote:That's the spirit tears for the tear throne!

Don't hate becoming a reasonable walker, or other something to balance. But if it becomes a walker the. The Nova reactor needs to be "perfected"

Just give it five hull points (or more, the hull points mechanic needs to be revamped in order to make most vehicles viable again), make the Nova only blow up on a 1 result but nerf the upgrades it provides. That way you could justify the changes fluff-wise by saying they've improved the design and made it less unreliable, but at the expense of toning down its capabilities.

The Tau have a titan class platform though. The Ta'unar. Basically a giant ranged jaeger. Equivalent to a Warhound Scout Titan. Famed for its insane durability against anything that is not grav. I'm building and painting mine now and calling it the Danger Zero.

Edit
40k runs under the rule of cool physics. So where giant stomchy mecha are the most powerful thing in the setting the Tau have adapted their own. I do want GW to add some cool vehicles, a floating helicopter style stealth gunship (like the Valkyrie or Corvus Blackstar), and more auxiliaries though. If they keep offering us the whole complete Tau package I'll be happy with giant mecha spam.

Korinov wrote:
Jet Pack Walker Vehicle, and leave the shield as it is? (5++ save iirc)

Sounds good to me

The bipedal design to me means mostly two things: 1) it will need an incredible amount of energy to move around, and even if 40k is for all purposes a space fantasy setting, I understood Tau as precisely the faction that would stick more to a "sci-fy" vibe (meaning "no huge ass mecha", and 2) it will go flying backwards the very first moment it fires its ridiculously oversized gun.

Just for the record, I don't like Wraithknights either. And regarding the Imperium's titans, I don't like them in 40k. Similarly, while I consider the Stormsurge ridiculous, I wouldn't have batted an eye if it had been introduced in Epic.

The energy needed shouldn't be a problem - it still has regular composite armour that goes into practically every piece of Tau armour you see, which is quite lightweight. It also has two slow charge reactors to meet the power demand for its weapon systems. In regards to it flying backwards, it has vectored thrusters and ground anchors to counter the gun's recoil, as well as an enormous gyroscope just like you see in most Tau weaponry built into the gun.

I think the suits are still part of the aesthetic of Tau, and correlate with their nature. I don't see how they break the sci fi vibe just because they were inspired from over the top anime or manga. 40k's always been over the top if you believe me, yet still believable.

Gamgee wrote:The Tau have a titan class platform though. The Ta'unar. Basically a giant ranged jaeger. Equivalent to a Warhound Scout Titan. Famed for its insane durability against anything that is not grav. I'm building and painting mine now and calling it the Danger Zero.

Edit
40k runs under the rule of cool physics. So where giant stomchy mecha are the most powerful thing in the setting the Tau have adapted their own. I do want GW to add some cool vehicles, a floating helicopter style stealth gunship (like the Valkyrie or Corvus Blackstar), and more auxiliaries though. If they keep offering us the whole complete Tau package I'll be happy with giant mecha spam.

I'm unsure about the size of the Supremacy Suit really; if it's as big as a Knight, then I guess it can be classed as a Titan.

I find 40k to be believable as I reckon a lot of boundaries will have been broken 38,000 years in the future regarding science. Modern day society already has a few inventions that defy the laws of physics, such as the aeroplane - why couldn't we have giant Mechs with big Railguns 38,000 years from now? Or even in a quarter of that time?

Torquar wrote:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
In all honesty it wouldn't be the first time a unit has been squatted.

I would suspect however next edition tau, eldar and necron will be hit with the nerf hammer.... hard...

Everybody suspected this when the 7th ed codexes came out. Didn't happen then.

My mind was blown with how insane GW got with buffing 7th edition Eldar when they where already one of the best armies in 6th edition. Especially considering we had just gotten through a string of toned down or nerfed releases like Orks, Dark Eldar, Grey Knights, Blood Angels, etc. (I was hoping that Necron Decurion was a bit of an oversight or last minute addition that pushed a relatively balanced codex over the top).

What it needs is either an overall nerf, (or even better, removal) to one aspect OR, as another user suggested, make it flexible but give each aspect limitations - EG:

Fire support: Heavy long ranged weapons (think S D super railgun, etc) and maybe one or two close in defence weapons (Burst Cannon) but has a 3+ armour save, loses its jump packs, will be murdered in assault and cannot move and fire its main gun. This design is intended to sit back and blast the enemy forces from afar.

Hunter: Many shot ranged missile attacks, jump packs, very fast and agile, has Move through Cover and Split Fire, but has less defense - IE either a 4+/5++ or a 3+/no invun. This variant is intended to hit first and hit hard, wiping out whole units with masses of short ranged missiles before retreating back into cover. However it lacks the armour for extended engagements and will vanish if the enemy gets a few good shots in at it.

Line Breaker: A heavy, but short ranged, cannon with either an AT (high S, low AP single shot) or HE (mid S, mid AP, single shot large blast), some anti personal weapon mounts (Burst cannon and/or Flamers), a single long ranged missile pod attack (long range, mid to low S, mid to high AP, no more than three shots), some form of anti-assault mine on the legs (think a claymore) to dissuade assaults, FNP and a monstrously good save of 2+/4++, lacks jump jets but can pay to have them, however it lacks ANY long ranged attacks (baring the missile pod weapon) and is incredibly expensive. This variant is intended to literally break the enemies lines, walking in through a withering hail of fire and breaking them wide open with powerful but short ranged attacks.

Tactical: Has a mixture of medium range, mid to high strength, mid AP attacks. Has jump jets and a save of 3+/6++. Overall a jack of all trades master of none.

There we have it, three variants each specialised in one thing but at the cost of being weak in another, whilst the fourth can do a bit of everything but cannot compete with the specialised variants.
Of course, it would be even better to make it a vehicle (it should be) but that would leave Tau player whining about how rubbish their no longer overpowered as hell monstrosity is.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Snipped for length.

Hell yes! This is a fantastic idea!

The one thing is I do not think it should have access to a Strength D Railgun. That'd be a little much.

 master of ordinance wrote:
What it needs is either an overall nerf, (or even better, removal)

Can we please stop talking about removal? It's such a dumb and lazy idea that will ultimately render people's very expensive models that they may have spent countless hours painting as shelf ornaments. We have enough units like that that have been removed from the game already.

Make it flexible but give each aspect limitations - EG:

Fire support: Heavy long ranged weapons (think S D super railgun, etc) and maybe one or two close in defence weapons (Burst Cannon) but has a 3+ armour save, loses its jump packs, will be murdered in assault and cannot move and fire its main gun. This design is intended to sit back and blast the enemy forces from afar.

Already exists, to an extent - the Jet Packs are removed to allow for heavier armour and the Submunition Cannons. It's a very specific reactionary design that has seen limited combat, as it struggles to fit into any Tau strategy outside of static defence. This makes it even more rare than a standard Riptide.

Hunter: Many shot ranged missile attacks, jump packs, very fast and agile, has Move through Cover and Split Fire, but has less defense - IE either a 4+/5++ or a 3+/no invun. This variant is intended to hit first and hit hard, wiping out whole units with masses of short ranged missiles before retreating back into cover. However it lacks the armour for extended engagements and will vanish if the enemy gets a few good shots in at it.

Already exists, sort of - still just as tough, but has a different Shield Generator that provides a ++5 or a ++4 against attacks that are closer than 12" away. Also an experiment of an experiment.

Line Breaker: A heavy, but short ranged, cannon with either an AT (high S, low AP single shot) or HE (mid S, mid AP, single shot large blast), some anti personal weapon mounts (Burst cannon and/or Flamers), a single long ranged missile pod attack (long range, mid to low S, mid to high AP, no more than three shots), some form of anti-assault mine on the legs (think a claymore) to dissuade assaults, FNP and a monstrously good save of 2+/4++, lacks jump jets but can pay to have them, however it lacks ANY long ranged attacks (baring the missile pod weapon) and is incredibly expensive. This variant is intended to literally break the enemies lines, walking in through a withering hail of fire and breaking them wide open with powerful but short ranged attacks.

Doesn't fit into Mont'ka or Kauyon at all when it lacks a Jet Pack - useless to the Tau in other words.

There we have it, three variants each specialised in one thing but at the cost of being weak in another, whilst the fourth can do a bit of everything but cannot compete with the specialised variants.
Of course, it would be even better to make it a vehicle (it should be) but that would leave Tau player whining about how rubbish their no longer overpowered as hell monstrosity is.

Those designs make no sense overall regarding the Tau way of warfare; the roles that they fulfil have already been created by the Forge World suits on a level more believable for Tau tech and tactics. Once again, the Riptide's weaknesses are its rarity and the Nova Reactor that charges it; just make it a Walker, make it a little more expensive, and put a limit on how many you can take based on how many points the player is bringing. Why does this have to be so complicated?

 General Annoyance wrote:
ed?]Snip

Because right now the Riptide can do everything at once without having to sacrifice anything in order to do it. It is incredibly good and capable of acting as a mobile artillery platform, assault gun, infantry hunter, tank hunter and point defence. At once. Without any sacrifice. For 180 points. 180 points is A Leman Russ with A upgrade.

The Riptide is overpowered as hell and needs a nerf.