Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
The Riptide is overpowered as hell and needs a nerf.
So increase its points and limit it to 1 per army, or something like "1 per 1000 points". Could also do some tweaks to the Nova Reactor to make it more dangerous to use, and increase the price of the Ion Accelerator.
No need to complicate it with variants that don't fit lore wise and would all need separate Codex entries and attention if they go wrong.
The Riptide is overpowered as hell and needs a nerf.
So increase its points and limit it to 1 per army, or something like "1 per 1000 points". Could also do some tweaks to the Nova Reactor to make it more dangerous to use, and increase the price of the Ion Accelerator.
No need to complicate it with variants that don't fit lore wise and would all need separate Codex entries and attention if they go wrong.
I could get behind that, how about 280 - 340 points?
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
Unquietemu wrote: Wow all these tears in one place I can't possibly drink them all. Riptides are fine in the current meta where we have so many powerful armies rolling around, and the funny thing is that Riptides haven't been able to elevate the Tau to a top tier army, so I guess the Tau need the rest of their army to be made stronger in order to nerf the riptide.
They are not fine no matter how many times you repeat it. Lists get around the inability to actually kill them at range by using invisibility on melee death stars. When you have to resort to that, it is NOT fine. T6 W5 2+ 3++/5+++ should cost a lot more than the Riptide does because it is virtually immune to almost every ranged weapon in the game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/02 17:32:10
I could get behind that, how about 280 - 340 points?
Sounds in the right ball park, though I don't feel qualified enough to pinpoint exactly how much. I'd definitely make the Ion Accelerator a 10-15 point upgrade rather than a 5 point one.
As for the Nova Reactor, make it more dangerous to use after each success with it. So the first time you use it, you fail on a 1; second time, fail on a 1 or 2; third time, fail on a 1,2, or 3, and so on.
Combine that with a 13/12/11 or 14/12/10 Jet Pack Walker and we're on our way to a better Riptide.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/02 17:43:32
I could get behind that, how about 280 - 340 points?
Sounds in the right ball park, though I don't feel qualified enough to pinpoint exactly how much. I'd definitely make the Ion Accelerator a 10-15 point upgrade rather than a 5 point one.
As for the Nova Reactor, make it more dangerous to use after each success with it. So the first time you use it, you fail on a 1; second time, fail on a 1 or 2; third time, fail on a 1,2, or 3, and so on.
Combine that with a 13/12/11 or 14/12/10 Jet Pack Walker and we're on our way to a better Riptide.
12/12/12 or 12/12/11. As big as it is, there is no way it should have more armour than a Medium tank (12 is about Medium average, 13 is more for heavies and MBT's, and 14 is for breakthrough tanks) given that it is so mobile. Combine that with a 5++ save (Nova'd to 4++) with 5 HP and the ability to jump 12" or walk the usual 6" and it would be good.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/02 18:36:19
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
12/12/12 or 12/12/11. As big as it is, there is no way it should have more armour than a Medium tank (12 is about Medium average, 13 is more for heavies and MBT's, and 14 is for breakthrough tanks) given that it is so mobile. Combine that with a 5++ save (Nova'd to 4++) with 5 HP and the ability to jump 12" or walk the usual 6" and it would be good.
Considering a Hammerhead has front armour 13 thanks to regular Tau Composite armour, the Riptide should at least have that with a much stronger and tougher Nanocrystalline alloy on its front.
Unquietemu wrote: Wow all these tears in one place I can't possibly drink them all. Riptides are fine in the current meta where we have so many powerful armies rolling around, and the funny thing is that Riptides haven't been able to elevate the Tau to a top tier army, so I guess the Tau need the rest of their army to be made stronger in order to nerf the riptide.
They are not fine no matter how many times you repeat it. Lists get around the inability to actually kill them at range by using invisibility on melee death stars. When you have to resort to that, it is NOT fine. T6 W5 2+ 3++/5+++ should cost a lot more than the Riptide does because it is virtually immune to almost every ranged weapon in the game.
Invisible death stars would exist regardless of the Riptides' existence. 3++ is also not guaranteed, nor is the Riptide immune to almost every ranged weapon in the game. Plasma, melta, and grav are all easily acquired in some variety or another by pretty much every army in the game. All of which ignore the Riptides armor & wound it on a 2+. And are also capable, in most cases, of being dropped in close to the Riptide.
Hyperbole doesn't help any argument here.
Sometimes, the only truth people understand, comes from the barrel of a gun.
That said, even ignoring armor and wounding well, the Riptide takes an absurd amount of fire to kill. You need an average of 51 BS4 Plasma Gun shots to kill an FNP'd Riptide with its 3++ up (which, while not guaranteed, does go off a majority of the time if it wants). With Melta's that number drops to 41 but you get half as many shots. Grav is the only real equalizer, and often involves utilizing units many people consider nearly or just as broken as the Riptide.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Unquietemu wrote: Wow all these tears in one place I can't possibly drink them all. Riptides are fine in the current meta where we have so many powerful armies rolling around, and the funny thing is that Riptides haven't been able to elevate the Tau to a top tier army, so I guess the Tau need the rest of their army to be made stronger in order to nerf the riptide.
They are not fine no matter how many times you repeat it. Lists get around the inability to actually kill them at range by using invisibility on melee death stars. When you have to resort to that, it is NOT fine. T6 W5 2+ 3++/5+++ should cost a lot more than the Riptide does because it is virtually immune to almost every ranged weapon in the game.
Invisible death stars would exist regardless of the Riptides' existence. 3++ is also not guaranteed, nor is the Riptide immune to almost every ranged weapon in the game. Plasma, melta, and grav are all easily acquired in some variety or another by pretty much every army in the game. All of which ignore the Riptides armor & wound it on a 2+. And are also capable, in most cases, of being dropped in close to the Riptide.
Hyperbole doesn't help any argument here.
That's the problem; it's not hyperbole. Do the math. You can't physically drop in enough melta/plasma to threaten even a single Riptide. Especially after the drop pod door ruling.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/02 20:54:46
I could get behind that, how about 280 - 340 points?
Sounds in the right ball park, though I don't feel qualified enough to pinpoint exactly how much. I'd definitely make the Ion Accelerator a 10-15 point upgrade rather than a 5 point one.
As for the Nova Reactor, make it more dangerous to use after each success with it. So the first time you use it, you fail on a 1; second time, fail on a 1 or 2; third time, fail on a 1,2, or 3, and so on.
Combine that with a 13/12/11 or 14/12/10 Jet Pack Walker and we're on our way to a better Riptide.
You're on your way to possibly the worst unit in the game.
A 14/12/10 Jetpack walker with an Ion Accelerator for 300+ is effectively a Leman Russ for twice the points. Plus its gun gets hot. Sure, it has the 'advantage' that it can lock a lot of units in the game in combat indefinitely... but the Riptide is not supposed to be a 300pt combat tarpit.
Would you take a Dreadnaught with a battle cannon for 340pts? I'm guessing no way in hell.
In the current game, 300+ points gets you a Wraithknight or an Imperial Knight.
I don't understand why anybody would want to make the Riptide into a walker when walkers are currently one of the worst types of units in the game. Combat vehicles in general really struggle to be relevant because of the vehicle damage table and lack of saves makes them nearly useless when taking fire. I dislike the Riptide because of what it currently is (does everything a bit too well) but I hope most of these suggestions never happen because it would just make the thing useless.
"Hold my shoota, I'm goin in"
Armies (7th edition points)
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ + 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3500 Points "Void Kraken" Space Marines
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise"
Vankraken wrote: I don't understand why anybody would want to make the Riptide into a walker when walkers are currently one of the worst types of units in the game. Combat vehicles in general really struggle to be relevant because of the vehicle damage table and lack of saves makes them nearly useless when taking fire. I dislike the Riptide because of what it currently is (does everything a bit too well) but I hope most of these suggestions never happen because it would just make the thing useless.
Some people want to make it a walker vehicle because it should have been a walker vehicle from the very beginning. It's a robot with a pilot.
The fact that most walker vehicles are almost useless in the current meta has nothing to do with that, it's a problem with the game rules.
It's like saying, hey footslogging infantry sucks so let's give this character a sledge pulled by wolves.
Oh wait.
Progress is like a herd of pigs: everybody is interested in the produced benefits, but nobody wants to deal with all the resulting gak.
GW customers deserve every bit of outrageous princing they get.
Vankraken wrote: I don't understand why anybody would want to make the Riptide into a walker when walkers are currently one of the worst types of units in the game. Combat vehicles in general really struggle to be relevant because of the vehicle damage table and lack of saves makes them nearly useless when taking fire. I dislike the Riptide because of what it currently is (does everything a bit too well) but I hope most of these suggestions never happen because it would just make the thing useless.
Giant Robot with marine inside - > walker Robot with guard inside -> walker Giant robot with ork inside -> walker Robot with grot inside -> walker
Giant robot with tau inside -> MC, for some reason
Yeah. Why one would think about a walker looking at the Riptide. Weird.
I blame 3rd edition eldar codex (Wraithlord).
Btw in the same codex (and today) we have robot (essentially legs + weapons) with eldar inside -> walker
And btw, this answer is the same kind of answer I found in the Grav thread. Marine players saying "b-but we n-need the Grav to deal with huge threats, we are alon with our pathetic demi-company and skyhammer, poor us *tears*". Well, tell that to the guard. But this is beyond the point. The point is that then the issue is how the power level of the game has scaled and some stuff has been left to dust. Fix how walkers work, making a Dread, a Defiler (AHAHAHAHAH) or a VehicleTide viable. Do not scale all up to eleven because (1) it just increases the escalation (2) other armies will be left in the dust creating more imbalance.
Said this, I would just follow Martel and remove FnP, and put the Armor Save at 3+. If is still too OP, nerf more next edition but IMHO is ok. We should never, ever fall in the same trap those hack frauds working as designers for GW always fall into: overbuff and overnerf units, especially not taking in account the changes in core rules and meta (the second can be forgiven, the first not).
This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2016/10/03 11:23:58
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis!
Sure it probably should be a walker in label but the issue is that the walker rules (this is a discussion about rule mechanics) do not accurately reflect the more agile walkers while MCs do. Also walker rules are just bad in general so trying to fit something that is a High Toughness and 2+ armor, an invuln save, and FNP into the format of an vehicle that has AV, no armor saves, and nothing relatable to FNP. Also Walkers cannot thrust move, have the horrible damage table that makes them nearly useless as a shooting platform, and explode like popcorn to things like melta.
The point I'm trying to make it that mechanically MC "walkers" work while Walker "walkers" are generally hot garbage and collect dust on shelves. No point in trying to convert a functional unit like the Riptide (that has a lot of rules that don't really convert into vehicle rules) into the format of a Walker and even come close to retaining any sort of similarity between them in terms of what this unit does on the table top.
"Hold my shoota, I'm goin in"
Armies (7th edition points)
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ + 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3500 Points "Void Kraken" Space Marines
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise"
Look at it this way. Before the last codex was released, people considered that 20 points for the Ion Accelerator wasn't an unreasonable change for the Riptide's entry. What happened? A functional reprint that included the possibility of squads of riptides. What does this mean? GW is a business that wants people to 'buy moar modelz!'.
It would require a reboot of the game ala 3rd to change things. If that happens, there is no telling where Riptides would be in the power curve, especially when everything else gets rebalanced too.
If I recall correctly, the Empire Steam Tank originally had a MC statline. Would it be reasonable to do the same for the other vehicles in the game? Rhinos being T6W3 models, Land Raiders being T10W4? Defilers being T8W3, etc?
'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
12/12/12 or 12/12/11. As big as it is, there is no way it should have more armour than a Medium tank (12 is about Medium average, 13 is more for heavies and MBT's, and 14 is for breakthrough tanks) given that it is so mobile. Combine that with a 5++ save (Nova'd to 4++) with 5 HP and the ability to jump 12" or walk the usual 6" and it would be good.
Considering a Hammerhead has front armour 13 thanks to regular Tau Composite armour, the Riptide should at least have that with a much stronger and tougher Nanocrystalline alloy on its front.
Not really, you see the Riptide has a lot more space for that armour to cover, and it is also a lot more agile. If we use Konflikt 47 Walkers as a good model (trust me, they are) for this, then Armour 12/12/12 is not actually that bad. It is still fast and agile, it still has its insane firepower and invun save, but it cannot directly compete with MBT's and heavier walkers in a straight up firefight (it should not be able too).
I could get behind that, how about 280 - 340 points?
Sounds in the right ball park, though I don't feel qualified enough to pinpoint exactly how much. I'd definitely make the Ion Accelerator a 10-15 point upgrade rather than a 5 point one.
As for the Nova Reactor, make it more dangerous to use after each success with it. So the first time you use it, you fail on a 1; second time, fail on a 1 or 2; third time, fail on a 1,2, or 3, and so on.
Combine that with a 13/12/11 or 14/12/10 Jet Pack Walker and we're on our way to a better Riptide.
You're on your way to possibly the worst unit in the game.
A 14/12/10 Jetpack walker with an Ion Accelerator for 300+ is effectively a Leman Russ for twice the points. Plus its gun gets hot. Sure, it has the 'advantage' that it can lock a lot of units in the game in combat indefinitely... but the Riptide is not supposed to be a 300pt combat tarpit.
Would you take a Dreadnaught with a battle cannon for 340pts? I'm guessing no way in hell.
In the current game, 300+ points gets you a Wraithknight or an Imperial Knight.
Too bad, so sad. The Tau already have enough pretty toys and fancy pieces, and this one needs a nerf. At 230 points with Armour 12/12/12, 5 HP and a 5++ save it would be balanced. Right now it is incredibly OP.
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
I could get behind that, how about 280 - 340 points?
Sounds in the right ball park, though I don't feel qualified enough to pinpoint exactly how much. I'd definitely make the Ion Accelerator a 10-15 point upgrade rather than a 5 point one.
As for the Nova Reactor, make it more dangerous to use after each success with it. So the first time you use it, you fail on a 1; second time, fail on a 1 or 2; third time, fail on a 1,2, or 3, and so on.
Combine that with a 13/12/11 or 14/12/10 Jet Pack Walker and we're on our way to a better Riptide.
You're on your way to possibly the worst unit in the game.
A 14/12/10 Jetpack walker with an Ion Accelerator for 300+ is effectively a Leman Russ for twice the points. Plus its gun gets hot. Sure, it has the 'advantage' that it can lock a lot of units in the game in combat indefinitely... but the Riptide is not supposed to be a 300pt combat tarpit.
Would you take a Dreadnaught with a battle cannon for 340pts? I'm guessing no way in hell.
In the current game, 300+ points gets you a Wraithknight or an Imperial Knight.
1: There is no way the riptide would be a AV 14/12/10 at most it should be 12/12/11. if my morkanaut is 13/13/12 and stumbles around the field like a drunken lunatic then a Tau walker should be a lot less in regards to armor.
2: If you added 100pts to the riptide it would still be viable for how tough it is. If you made it a walker with jump rules all you have done is make it a vehicle which is should have been from the start.
3: You just compared adding 100pts to the riptide to Wraithknights and Imperial Knights, two units that the vast majority of the gaming community feels are drastically under-costed.
This is another prime example of the "have" armies complaining when people point out how horribly unbalanced their favorite toys are.
master of ordinance wrote: Not really, you see the Riptide has a lot more space for that armour to cover, and it is also a lot more agile.
The actual armour plates primarily cover the front half of the Suit. Both Composite and Nanocrystalline alloy are light materials; combine that with a Jet Pack and a Nova Reactor and you have your fast moving walker.
It is still fast and agile, it still has its insane firepower and invun save, but it cannot directly compete with MBT's and heavier walkers in a straight up firefight (it should not be able too).
It should be able to compete with Battle Tanks and Heavy Walkers - that's all part of its design. Giving it an armour value akin to a Armoured Sentinel massed produced in a Manufactorum doesn't seem very accurate.
SemperMortis wrote:
1: There is no way the riptide would be a AV 14/12/10 at most it should be 12/12/11. if my morkanaut is 13/13/12 and stumbles around the field like a drunken lunatic then a Tau walker should be a lot less in regards to armor.
The Morkanaut doesn't have a Nova Reactor or a Jet Pack, and it's built by Orks who layer whatever scrap they can find on top of each other to create thicker armour. Of course it isn't going to be as graceful as something that has been precision engineered and powered by the Earth Caste, using protective materials far superior to even Imperial Ceramite and Plasteel.
This is another prime example of the "have" armies complaining when people point out how horribly unbalanced their favorite toys are.
I may as well mention for any record that I don't own a Riptide; I have painted one for a friend, and I have played with it once, back when it was first released. Currently I own a Tau SC set, which I am painting for a casual tournament, before they probably hit the shelf for long periods of time.
I only feel qualified to comment about the lore behind the Riptide really, and how that should translate into the game. However, appreciating that the TT game of 40k is often very inaccurate regarding the power of units in the lore, I would accept that a compromise would perhaps be necessary for the Riptide to continue to see the tabletop. Would still be unhappy, but accepting for the sake of a prospect of fair and fun play.
I think the best approach honestly is a points increase; where everyone wants to go from there, I dunno. The Riptide should still remain as a tough cookie that brings heavy firepower and good manoeuvrability to the table - it just needs a points cost to reflect this fairly.
G.A
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/03 17:19:02
Tau Riptide. Ws 2 BS 3 S5 T6 W5 LD9 3+ 150 points, TLSMS/PR/FB standard
50 points- offensive weapons suite: The riptide can take 2 main weapons, of either the IA with only normal and overcharge profile, and the HBC (the formerly nova profile becomes an "overcharge" to keep its gets hot profile) , keeps assault thrust (but cannot 4d6 thrust since not nova)
60 Points- Balanced suite: Riptide gains the riptide shield generator, and can take 1 main weapon. Gains the ability to nova charge. keeps assault thrust
70 points- Defensive suite: Riptide armor improves to 2+ gains the riptide shield generator, access to nova charge, a 2nd SMS/PR/FB, and stimulant injectors, loses assault thrust from the 2+ armor (broadside style)
If you want a killy riptide, you can still have it, but its closer to a glass hammer, fairly easy to take down.
if you like the classic riptide, its there, still in generally a more vulnerable platform, no stimms, so 1/3rd more vulnerable, and a few more points
if you want the tank it all beast (the one most complained about on this post), you can, but you have acceptable, but inferior weapons, and it does pay for the survivability. Granted its still jet-pack MC in this imagining, so its not worthless (just nearly) in CC,
The Morkanaut doesn't have a Nova Reactor or a Jet Pack, and it's built by Orks who layer whatever scrap they can find on top of each other to create thicker armour. Of course it isn't going to be as graceful as something that has been precision engineered and powered by the Earth Caste, using protective materials far superior to even Imperial Ceramite and Plasteel.
G.A
Lets compare then shall we.
Morkanaut costs 230pts. It has AV13/13/12 with 5HPs It is a walker so it is slow as all hell, suffers from difficult terrain (though it can't be immobilized at least) and technically (I really have to emphasize this part) it is a transport with room for 6 models. It carries for weapons 2 TL Big Shootas, 2 Rokkitz, a KMB and a KMK. Total that equals 6 TL S5AP5 shots at 36in, 2 S8 AP3 shots at 24in, 1 S8 AP2 GETS HOT shot at 24in and 1 S8AP2 small blast gets hot at 36in. ALL of which are BS2. It has no Invul save unless you spend 50pts to upgrade it to have a 5++ bubble against shooting only. in CC it has a S10 AP1 Initiative 2 Klaw
A Riptide on the other hand is 180pts T6 W5 with a 2+ 5++ JET PACK monstrous creature. It is immune to Night fighting and blind effects, has a built in multitracker so it can shoot multiple weapons, has the Nova reactor which is a 2/3rds chance of giving yourself incredible buffs. Comes standard with a Heavy Burst cannon S6 AP4 Heavy 8 and a SMS for S5 AP5 homing, ignores cover at ranges 36 and 30 respectively. All of that is also at BS3. Now considering there is a 50pt difference between the two you would think "Why is the riptide cheaper?" And it only gets worse.
The Morkanaut fully upgraded costs about 300pts, and for those extra 70pts you get a 5++ bubble and a IWND roll. The Riptide on the other hand? for a mere 45pts (225 total now) it can add interceptor, Ion Accelorator and stimulant injector (5+ FNP). And if you really want to go overboard you can throw in 2 shield drones for 50pts.
So for 275pts compared to the Morkanauts 300 you now have a T6 5wound Jet pack monstrous creature with 2+ 5++(Possibly 3++) and a 5+ FNP. It is now armed with a Ion Accelerator which has 3 different weapon profiles, but basically can be a range 72 S9Ap2 Large blast with gets hot. Probably the same SMS system, 2 Missile drones which are armed with S7Ap4 range 36 assault 2 missiles and those little drones are also T6 with 4+/4++.
Let me sum that up for you. Fully upgraded the Riptide is Cheaper, Faster, Tougher, harder hitting and more accurate then the Morkanaut. The only place the Morkanaut beats the Riptide is in CC, and really it is a matter of opinion since the Riptide has Smash attacks but is only WS2. of course the trade off is that the Morkanaut has no saves in CC so if it gets hit with a Power Fist or Melta bomb it could die dramatically from a single hit while the Riptide has to be stripped of ALL its wounds.
So all the fluff reasons in the world wont fix the HUGE imbalance between the two. Fluff is fine. The game reflecting the fluff is OK but that is why we have a points system and the problem is that the Riptide isn't accurately represented by the points system.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/03 17:52:32
You have my sympathy as an ORK player, but outside of the 5++ bubble, the Morkanaut isn't even competitive with other walkers. I'd gladly upgrade/update your vehicle with something to bring it in line. But somewhere between bringing the bottom up and the top down to the middle should be our goal. Not to make everyone suffer like I do, or the power creep constantly bringing things up has repeatedly caused.
master of ordinance wrote:
Not really, you see the Riptide has a lot more space for that armour to cover, and it is also a lot more agile.
The actual armour plates primarily cover the front half of the Suit. Both Composite and Nanocrystalline alloy are light materials; combine that with a Jet Pack and a Nova Reactor and you have your fast moving walker.
Okay, then make it 13/11/11. Or 12/12/11. It is still no where near as tough as an actual dedicated tank, no matter how fancy its armour tech is.
It is still fast and agile, it still has its insane firepower and invun save, but it cannot directly compete with MBT's and heavier walkers in a straight up firefight (it should not be able too).
It should be able to compete with Battle Tanks and Heavy Walkers - that's all part of its design. Giving it an armour value akin to a Armoured Sentinel massed produced in a Manufactorum doesn't seem very accurate.
Yes it should be able to compete with them, but not in a direct slugging fest. In a direct slugging fest it should lose horrifically. The Riptide should beat enemy tanks by using its agility to flank them, moving around and picking off the vulnerable ones before fading back into cover. It should have good firepower and good manoeuvrability, but average at best armour. So 12/12/12 is fine.
SemperMortis wrote:
1: There is no way the riptide would be a AV 14/12/10 at most it should be 12/12/11. if my morkanaut is 13/13/12 and stumbles around the field like a drunken lunatic then a Tau walker should be a lot less in regards to armor.
The Morkanaut doesn't have a Nova Reactor or a Jet Pack, and it's built by Orks who layer whatever scrap they can find on top of each other to create thicker armour. Of course it isn't going to be as graceful as something that has been precision engineered and powered by the Earth Caste, using protective materials far superior to even Imperial Ceramite and Plasteel.
The Morkanaut has a lot more armour than the Riptide does, even if it does come from sheer mass of steel. And BTW, your Nova Reactor and Jump Pack do not add to your armour, one is a power source and the other a manoeuvre aid.
This is another prime example of the "have" armies complaining when people point out how horribly unbalanced their favorite toys are.
I may as well mention for any record that I don't own a Riptide; I have painted one for a friend, and I have played with it once, back when it was first released. Currently I own a Tau SC set, which I am painting for a casual tournament, before they probably hit the shelf for long periods of time.
Okay, so you dont own one. But either way, the Riptide is still far too powerful to exist as it does.
I think the best approach honestly is a points increase; where everyone wants to go from there, I dunno. The Riptide should still remain as a tough cookie that brings heavy firepower and good manoeuvrability to the table - it just needs a points cost to reflect this fairly.
G.A
A points increase only solves part of the problem. What about Sentinels, Knights, Dreadnoughts, Killa Kans, etc. They are all walkers and yet all of them have a hiher ratio of organic components to that of the Riptide, so why does only the Riptide get special treatment?
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
Morkanaut costs 230pts. It has AV13/13/12 with 5HPs It is a walker so it is slow as all hell, suffers from difficult terrain (though it can't be immobilized at least) and technically (I really have to emphasize this part) it is a transport with room for 6 models. It carries for weapons 2 TL Big Shootas, 2 Rokkitz, a KMB and a KMK. Total that equals 6 TL S5AP5 shots at 36in, 2 S8 AP3 shots at 24in, 1 S8 AP2 GETS HOT shot at 24in and 1 S8AP2 small blast gets hot at 36in. ALL of which are BS2. It has no Invul save unless you spend 50pts to upgrade it to have a 5++ bubble against shooting only. in CC it has a S10 AP1 Initiative 2 Klaw
A Riptide on the other hand is 180pts T6 W5 with a 2+ 5++ JET PACK monstrous creature. It is immune to Night fighting and blind effects, has a built in multitracker so it can shoot multiple weapons, has the Nova reactor which is a 2/3rds chance of giving yourself incredible buffs. Comes standard with a Heavy Burst cannon S6 AP4 Heavy 8 and a SMS for S5 AP5 homing, ignores cover at ranges 36 and 30 respectively. All of that is also at BS3. Now considering there is a 50pt difference between the two you would think "Why is the riptide cheaper?" And it only gets worse.
The Morkanaut fully upgraded costs about 300pts, and for those extra 70pts you get a 5++ bubble and a IWND roll. The Riptide on the other hand? for a mere 45pts (225 total now) it can add interceptor, Ion Accelorator and stimulant injector (5+ FNP). And if you really want to go overboard you can throw in 2 shield drones for 50pts.
So for 275pts compared to the Morkanauts 300 you now have a T6 5wound Jet pack monstrous creature with 2+ 5++(Possibly 3++) and a 5+ FNP. It is now armed with a Ion Accelerator which has 3 different weapon profiles, but basically can be a range 72 S9Ap2 Large blast with gets hot. Probably the same SMS system, 2 Missile drones which are armed with S7Ap4 range 36 assault 2 missiles and those little drones are also T6 with 4+/4++.
Let me sum that up for you. Fully upgraded the Riptide is Cheaper, Faster, Tougher, harder hitting and more accurate then the Morkanaut. The only place the Morkanaut beats the Riptide is in CC, and really it is a matter of opinion since the Riptide has Smash attacks but is only WS2. of course the trade off is that the Morkanaut has no saves in CC so if it gets hit with a Power Fist or Melta bomb it could die dramatically from a single hit while the Riptide has to be stripped of ALL its wounds.
I think you missed the point I was making here. You said that a Riptide should be just as slow as a Morkanaut because they share the same level of toughness. The Riptide is a far more sophisticated design using tougher but lighter materials, hence why it can move about as fast as it can yet still take a beating from incoming fire. If its armour was weak, then it'd almost entirely fail to do better on what Crisis Suits can do already (lore wise).
The game reflecting the fluff is OK but that is why we have a points system and the problem is that the Riptide isn't accurately represented by the points system.
I agree with this. Not sure when I didn't really.
master of ordinance wrote:Okay, then make it 13/11/11. Or 12/12/11. It is still no where near as tough as an actual dedicated tank, no matter how fancy its armour tech is.
The fancy armour tech is exactly why it's just as tough as a something like a Predator. The only reason it isn't as tough as a Land Raider or Leman Russ Tank is because the weight allowance of the frame has also been dedicated to a heavy Jet Pack, Main Weapon and Shield Generator. It still has to resist fire much better than a Sentinel, and certainly much better than Crisis Suits.
Yes it should be able to compete with them, but not in a direct slugging fest. In a direct slugging fest it should lose horrifically. The Riptide should beat enemy tanks by using its agility to flank them, moving around and picking off the vulnerable ones before fading back into cover. It should have good firepower and good manoeuvrability, but average at best armour. So 12/12/12 is fine.
Depends on the Tank really, but a Riptide has been designed in mind to both ambush and destroy a target, but still be able to hold its ground if the tank gets the chance to retaliate. It's certainly not impervious, nor is it best suited to take a heavy tank straight on - a Leman Russ would probably be able to blow it right open if it was in front of its sights. Against a medium tank like a Predator, the Riptide would still have the advantage even out in the open.
The Morkanaut has a lot more armour than the Riptide does, even if it does come from sheer mass of steel. And BTW, your Nova Reactor and Jump Pack do not add to your armour, one is a power source and the other a manoeuvre aid.
Hence why the Morkanaut lumbers across the battlefield like the hulk of junk it is - the Riptide could have just as much armour thanks to the material being used to build it being so much lighter. I also didn't say the Pack and Reactor added to armour in any way - it was attributing to the Riptide's manoeuvrability
Okay, so you don't own one. But either way, the Riptide is still far too powerful to exist as it does.
Again I agree. Don't know when I didn't.
The disclaimer was more to stop anyone calling me out as someone who's grown too attached to their OP toys. I don't play the game anymore; frankly I don't care about the state of the game anymore as I've learned to accept it's screwed as a system by which I can enjoy my evenings with friends. I'm here to contribute about what the Riptide should be (as per the title of this thread) and possibly suggest some light ideas on improvement to the unit to make it more fair and fun to play against. Although ultimately, the latter part of that statement doesn't affect me at all.
Disclaimer no.2: Orks are my second favourite faction in the universe. And no, Tau are not my number 1.
A points increase only solves part of the problem. What about Sentinels, Knights, Dreadnoughts, Killa Kans, etc. They are all walkers and yet all of them have a hiher ratio of organic components to that of the Riptide, so why does only the Riptide get special treatment?
A higher ratio of organic components than a Riptide? Don't all of them have an Organic Pilot and a Mechanical Body?
Plus I'm pretty sure even in my naivety that Sentinels, Knights, Dreadnoughts, and Killa Kans aren't considered to be "OP" by the majority of 40k players. This shouldn't be considered to be special treatment for the Riptide - it's something to put it back in line while still resembling what it should be.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/03 23:26:18
Morkanaut costs 230pts. It has AV13/13/12 with 5HPs It is a walker so it is slow as all hell, suffers from difficult terrain (though it can't be immobilized at least) and technically (I really have to emphasize this part) it is a transport with room for 6 models. It carries for weapons 2 TL Big Shootas, 2 Rokkitz, a KMB and a KMK. Total that equals 6 TL S5AP5 shots at 36in, 2 S8 AP3 shots at 24in, 1 S8 AP2 GETS HOT shot at 24in and 1 S8AP2 small blast gets hot at 36in. ALL of which are BS2. It has no Invul save unless you spend 50pts to upgrade it to have a 5++ bubble against shooting only. in CC it has a S10 AP1 Initiative 2 Klaw
A Riptide on the other hand is 180pts T6 W5 with a 2+ 5++ JET PACK monstrous creature. It is immune to Night fighting and blind effects, has a built in multitracker so it can shoot multiple weapons, has the Nova reactor which is a 2/3rds chance of giving yourself incredible buffs. Comes standard with a Heavy Burst cannon S6 AP4 Heavy 8 and a SMS for S5 AP5 homing, ignores cover at ranges 36 and 30 respectively. All of that is also at BS3. Now considering there is a 50pt difference between the two you would think "Why is the riptide cheaper?" And it only gets worse.
The Morkanaut fully upgraded costs about 300pts, and for those extra 70pts you get a 5++ bubble and a IWND roll. The Riptide on the other hand? for a mere 45pts (225 total now) it can add interceptor, Ion Accelorator and stimulant injector (5+ FNP). And if you really want to go overboard you can throw in 2 shield drones for 50pts.
So for 275pts compared to the Morkanauts 300 you now have a T6 5wound Jet pack monstrous creature with 2+ 5++(Possibly 3++) and a 5+ FNP. It is now armed with a Ion Accelerator which has 3 different weapon profiles, but basically can be a range 72 S9Ap2 Large blast with gets hot. Probably the same SMS system, 2 Missile drones which are armed with S7Ap4 range 36 assault 2 missiles and those little drones are also T6 with 4+/4++.
Let me sum that up for you. Fully upgraded the Riptide is Cheaper, Faster, Tougher, harder hitting and more accurate then the Morkanaut. The only place the Morkanaut beats the Riptide is in CC, and really it is a matter of opinion since the Riptide has Smash attacks but is only WS2. of course the trade off is that the Morkanaut has no saves in CC so if it gets hit with a Power Fist or Melta bomb it could die dramatically from a single hit while the Riptide has to be stripped of ALL its wounds.
I think you missed the point I was making here. You said that a Riptide should be just as slow as a Morkanaut because they share the same level of toughness. The Riptide is a far more sophisticated design using tougher but lighter materials, hence why it can move about as fast as it can yet still take a beating from incoming fire. If its armour was weak, then it'd almost entirely fail to do better on Crisis Suits can do already (lore wise).
The point he is making is that the Morkanought has a lot more armour than the Riptide, and I really mean a lot more. As in literal feet of armour. The Riptide, on the other hand, has a few inches of advanced armour. No matter how good that armour, it does still not equate an AV of 13.
master of ordinance wrote:Okay, then make it 13/11/11. Or 12/12/11. It is still no where near as tough as an actual dedicated tank, no matter how fancy its armour tech is.
The fancy armour tech is exactly why it's just as tough as a something like a Predator. The only reason it isn't as tough as a Land Raider or Leman Russ Tank is because the weight allowance of the frame has also been dedicated to a heavy Jet Pack, Main Weapon and Shield Generator. It still has to resist fire much better than a Sentinel, and certainly much better than Crisis Suits.
I am not so sure about that. You see, you have a small amount of fancy armour. Not a lot of it and certainly not as much as a Hammerhead, What's more, the Riptide has open and unarmoured sections (joints) and most of its armour is flat and slabbish as opposed to the sloping on the Hammerhead. Factor in the weight tolerances of a jump pack and gyro and your battle suit cannot really have enough armour to have more than 12 arr round (and even that is pushing it). As for the resisting fire thing, that comes from your shield generator (invun save) and larger frame (more HP).
Yes it should be able to compete with them, but not in a direct slugging fest. In a direct slugging fest it should lose horrifically. The Riptide should beat enemy tanks by using its agility to flank them, moving around and picking off the vulnerable ones before fading back into cover. It should have good firepower and good manoeuvrability, but average at best armour. So 12/12/12 is fine.
Depends on the Tank really, but a Riptide has been designed in mind to both ambush and destroy a target, but still be able to hold its ground if the tank gets the chance to retaliate. It's certainly not impervious, nor is it best suited to take a heavy tank straight on - a Leman Russ would probably be able to blow it right open if it was in front of its sights. Against a medium tank like a Predator, the Riptide would still have the advantage even out in the open.
Exactly my point, it was intended to ambush and destroy tanks, not face them head on. Giving it AV 13 would let it engage tanks head on and live, especially with 4/5HP. Giving it AV 12 will remove its ability to out tank tanks, but will still make it tough enough to withstand retaliatory fire if it fails to eliminate its target outright.
The Morkanaut has a lot more armour than the Riptide does, even if it does come from sheer mass of steel. And BTW, your Nova Reactor and Jump Pack do not add to your armour, one is a power source and the other a manoeuvre aid.
Hence why the Morkanaut lumbers across the battlefield like the hulk of junk it is - the Riptide could have just as much armour thanks to the material being used to build it being so much lighter. I also didn't say the Pack and Reactor added to armour in any way - it was attributing to the Riptide's manoeuvrability
Yes, but the Riptide also has to dedicate tonnage and space to an advanced Jump Pack, which would also require reinforced shock absorbers in the legs, an advanced and upgraded gyro stabiliser, recoil absorbers, etc.
Okay, so you don't own one. But either way, the Riptide is still far too powerful to exist as it does.
Again I agree. Don't know when I didn't.
Glad we agree
A points increase only solves part of the problem. What about Sentinels, Knights, Dreadnoughts, Killa Kans, etc. They are all walkers and yet all of them have a hiher ratio of organic components to that of the Riptide, so why does only the Riptide get special treatment?
A higher ratio of organic components than a Riptide? Don't all of them have an Organic Pilot and a Mechanical Body?
Plus I'm pretty sure even in my naivety that Sentinels, Knights, Dreadnoughts, and Killa Kans aren't considered to be "OP" by the majority of 40k players. This shouldn't be considered to be special treatment for the Riptide - it's something to put it back in line while still resembling what it should be.
Basically, the amount of space taken up by the organic component ((Pilot) in a Dreadnought or Sentinel is proportionally a far larger percentage than that dedicated to mechanical components than that of the Riptide, because the Riptide is larger and therefore the pilot takes up proportionally less space in it than he does in the Sentinel or Dreadnought. However the Riptide is the only one of those to be classed as an MC, something which brings a huge advantage over being classed as a Walker.
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
The point he is making is that the Morkanought has a lot more armour than the Riptide, and I really mean a lot more. As in literal feet of armour. The Riptide, on the other hand, has a few inches of advanced armour. No matter how good that armour, it does still not equate an AV of 13.
Would a bullet travel through an inch of Titanium or 10 feet of Bread? Thickness is a relative term depending on the material being discussed. A few inches of Nanocrystalline can easily be considered to be on par with a foot of Ork junk metal.
I am not so sure about that. You see, you have a small amount of fancy armour. Not a lot of it and certainly not as much as a Hammerhead
A Hammerhead uses regular Tau Composite, which isn't as tough as Nanocrystalline Alloy.
What's more, the Riptide has open and unarmoured sections (joints) and most of its armour is flat and slabbish as opposed to the sloping on the Hammerhead.
The unarmoured sections are mostly at the sides and rear, however most of the time you'll be hitting the Riptide's armour at an angle - the torso plating is already angled downwards, and typically you wouldn't be hitting its legs flat on as they'd be bent or in motion.
Exactly my point, it was intended to ambush and destroy tanks, not face them head on. Giving it AV 13 would let it engage tanks head on and live, especially with 4/5HP. Giving it AV 12 will remove its ability to out tank tanks, but will still make it tough enough to withstand retaliatory fire if it fails to eliminate its target outright.
I would just give it AV13 and less HP (3-4) - still relatively okay to penetrate (and destroy) from the front if you have the right tools.
Yes, but the Riptide also has to dedicate tonnage and space to an advanced Jump Pack, which would also require reinforced shock absorbers in the legs, an advanced and upgraded gyro stabiliser, recoil absorbers, etc.
Hence why Nanocrystalline was developed for the Riptide - armouring it in Tau Composite would not have provided enough protection when put against weight allowance.
The Nova Reactor also helps to keep its energy requirements in check. Both of these technologies were developed exclusively for the XV104 due to the demand it needed to be a successful unit.
Glad we agree
Me too - my hands need some rest after typing through nearly 3 pages of discussion
I would add, however, that I think the power of the Riptide is fairly representative. It's definitely too cheap and unrestricted at the moment though.
Basically, the amount of space taken up by the organic component ((Pilot) in a Dreadnought or Sentinel is proportionally a far larger percentage than that dedicated to mechanical components than that of the Riptide, because the Riptide is larger and therefore the pilot takes up proportionally less space in it than he does in the Sentinel or Dreadnought. However the Riptide is the only one of those to be classed as an MC, something which brings a huge advantage over being classed as a Walker.
I get that. So what do we do about the Dreadknight?
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ 
+ 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise" 
