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master of ordinance wrote: The Dreadknight is an oddity. I wouldnt mind making it Infantry with a 2+ save and some special rules + a massive invun.
I was thinking that it would be ridiculous to go that route, but then I thought that it would be brilliant. Look at Karadread; a relentless power weapon and multimelta toting infantry model. What happens if we apply the same rules to other classic.MCs? The dreadknight only gets an APCC weapon if you buy one: AP3 for the sword or AP2-1 for the hammer. The riptide whiffs in cc on account that it has no access to CC weaponry. The Carnifex's profile is entirely dependent on what it is armed with.
'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
The point he is making is that the Morkanought has a lot more armour than the Riptide, and I really mean a lot more. As in literal feet of armour. The Riptide, on the other hand, has a few inches of advanced armour. No matter how good that armour, it does still not equate an AV of 13.
Would a bullet travel through an inch of Titanium or 10 feet of Bread? Thickness is a relative term depending on the material being discussed. A few inches of Nanocrystalline can easily be considered to be on par with a foot of Ork junk metal.
I am not so sure about that. You see, you have a small amount of fancy armour. Not a lot of it and certainly not as much as a Hammerhead
A Hammerhead uses regular Tau Composite, which isn't as tough as Nanocrystalline Alloy.
What's more, the Riptide has open and unarmoured sections (joints) and most of its armour is flat and slabbish as opposed to the sloping on the Hammerhead.
The unarmoured sections are mostly at the sides and rear, however most of the time you'll be hitting the Riptide's armour at an angle - the torso plating is already angled downwards, and typically you wouldn't be hitting its legs flat on as they'd be bent or in motion.
Exactly my point, it was intended to ambush and destroy tanks, not face them head on. Giving it AV 13 would let it engage tanks head on and live, especially with 4/5HP. Giving it AV 12 will remove its ability to out tank tanks, but will still make it tough enough to withstand retaliatory fire if it fails to eliminate its target outright.
I would just give it AV13 and less HP (3-4) - still relatively okay to penetrate (and destroy) from the front if you have the right tools.
Yes, but the Riptide also has to dedicate tonnage and space to an advanced Jump Pack, which would also require reinforced shock absorbers in the legs, an advanced and upgraded gyro stabiliser, recoil absorbers, etc.
Hence why Nanocrystalline was developed for the Riptide - armouring it in Tau Composite would not have provided enough protection when put against weight allowance.
The Nova Reactor also helps to keep its energy requirements in check. Both of these technologies were developed exclusively for the XV104 due to the demand it needed to be a successful unit.
Glad we agree
Me too - my hands need some rest after typing through nearly 3 pages of discussion
I would add, however, that I think the power of the Riptide is fairly representative. It's definitely too cheap and unrestricted at the moment though.
Basically, the amount of space taken up by the organic component ((Pilot) in a Dreadnought or Sentinel is proportionally a far larger percentage than that dedicated to mechanical components than that of the Riptide, because the Riptide is larger and therefore the pilot takes up proportionally less space in it than he does in the Sentinel or Dreadnought. However the Riptide is the only one of those to be classed as an MC, something which brings a huge advantage over being classed as a Walker.
I get that. So what do we do about the Dreadknight?
So your using fluff reasons to justify why its armor would be so incredible. Ok, well since we are doing that, I think Orks should have 2-3 times the model count per squad because Fluff. All for the same price of course. So that 180pts of boys went from 30 models to 90. Because fluff.
Also I believe my army should always win because Orks are awesome, according to the fluff everything happens because orks believe it to be so, so does that mean my army should always win because the fluff says so?
Point being, don't use fluff to justify why your special snowflake toys should be more powerful and cheaper then everyone elses.
So your using fluff reasons to justify why its armor would be so incredible. Ok, well since we are doing that, I think Orks should have 2-3 times the model count per squad because Fluff. All for the same price of course. So that 180pts of boys went from 30 models to 90. Because fluff.
Not all Ork fighting parties revolve around masses of Ork Boyz - some tribes and warbands can have a very small number of ground troops depending on circumstance.
Also I believe my army should always win because Orks are awesome, according to the fluff everything happens because orks believe it to be so, so does that mean my army should always win because the fluff says so?
Just because an Ork thinks he still wins by running away so he can come back for another go, doesn't mean he's won. Also Waaagh! energy is not the be all and end all of Orks - it may make them tougher, it may make them faster, it may make them luckier and it may make them smarter; it never makes them impervious.
Point being, don't use fluff to justify why your special snowflake toys should be more powerful and cheaper then everyone elses.
Again, I don't own a Riptide, nor do I care for the rules, but thanks for demonstrating a lack of understanding of Ork background. Nothing you said can necessarily be justified in the game based on the lore, whereas the toughness and firepower of a Riptide can
Martel732 wrote: " whereas the toughness and firepower of a Riptide can"
That's fine. Just pay for it.
Which I agree needs to be addressed. Never said it didn't
Well, if you want the Riptide to have AV13/12/12 or basically have AV13 on the front your going to be looking at paying around 350-400pts. Not because of the armor but because you want this thing to be the fastest walker in the game, the shootiest walker in the game (Besides TITANS) and you want it to have the thickest armor in the game.
SemperMortis wrote: Not because of the armor but because you want this thing to be the fastest walker in the game, the shootiest walker in the game (Besides TITANS) and you want it to have the thickest armor in the game.
I like how you're making this pointlessly personal; I think it should be that way because that's how it's been depicted in the lore. 13/11/11 or 13/12/10, something in that ball park sounds about right. Does it have to have the most firepower? No, not really, just a good amount of it - I'd expect a Morkanaut to outclass it in firepower perhaps, although I am unsure of its game stats.
Also I would notion that the Dreadknight is probably faster due to its teleporter, and possibly should hit harder, but whatever.
I've said it befoe, and I'll say it again: Riptides should not be Walkers. If you make Riptides into Walkers, you have to make Storm Surges & Ghost Keels Walkers. Good idea, you say? Well it cannot stop there. For consistency you now have to make Broadsides, Crisis Suits & Stealth suits into Walkers. And that is just ridiculus The Riptide needs to either have a 3+ armour (like a Crisis suit) or have its Jet-pack removed (like a Broadside). Then lower the invul Nova charge to only a 4++ and bump it to an even 200pts before upgrades and you have a solid unit that pays for what it is.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/04 15:42:08
Galef wrote: If you make Riptides into Walkers, you have to make Storm Surges & Ghost Keels Walkers.
Sounds like a plan to me.
Good idea, you say? Well it cannot stop there. For consistency you now have to make Broadsides, Crisis Suits & Stealth suits into Walkers. And that is just ridiculus
It is ridiculous because Broadsides, Crisis Suits and Stealth suits are nowhere near the size needed to be classed as any kind of Walker - the Broadside doesn't even reach the height of a Scout Sentinel. We should start classing Centurions as Walkers too because they're bipedal. And Meganobz
The Riptide needs to either have a 3+ armour (like a Crisis suit) or have its Jet-pack removed (like a Broadside). Then lower the invul Nova charge to only a 4++ and bump it to an even 200pts before upgrades and you have a solid unit that pays for what it is.
In other words, remove everything that makes a Riptide a Riptide, like the armour and the jetpack. I seem to feel like this discussion is doing a 360 cycle.
Although I would say a nerf to the Shield Generator is reasonable.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/10/04 15:49:12
SemperMortis wrote: Not because of the armor but because you want this thing to be the fastest walker in the game, the shootiest walker in the game (Besides TITANS) and you want it to have the thickest armor in the game.
I like how you're making this pointlessly personal; I think it should be that way because that's how it's been depicted in the lore. 13/11/11 or 13/12/10, something in that ball park sounds about right. Does it have to have the most firepower? No, not really, just a good amount of it - I'd expect a Morkanaut to outclass it in firepower perhaps, although I am unsure of its game stats.
Also I would notion that the Dreadknight is probably faster due to its teleporter, and possibly should hit harder, but whatever.
And as depicted in the lore, Vanquishers blow holes out of GMCs and headshot Titans...
Yet they can't even really touch MCs, much less GMCs and vehicles/superheavies.
And as depicted in the lore, Vanquishers blow holes out of GMCs and headshot Titans...
Yet they can't even really touch MCs, much less GMCs and vehicles/superheavies.
Hence why the Riptide should be a Walker. Not much else I can add to that.
And Vanquishers still wouldn't be able to touch it.
Vanquishers are S8 AP2 with Armourbane. Sure, you have a great chance of penetrating vehicles and if you hit something you're going to get a wound, probably...unless the thing has an Invulnerable save or Cover or multiple Wounds and FNP with a high T.
This is the point that people have tried to get across, multiple times, in threads regarding the Riptide. It has a high Offensive capability, a high Defensive capability, and the ability to synergize even more for its Offensive capability in an army where the synergy is already a problematic part of why players dislike playing against it.
Simply making it so that Tau direct LOS/ blast weapons cannot benefit from Scour if the target actually is within cover of a certain value(Ruins, buildings, etc) would go a long way towards making people hate the Tau less.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/04 15:56:01
And Vanquishers still wouldn't be able to touch it.
Vanquishers are S8 AP2 with Armourbane. Sure, you have a great chance of penetrating vehicles and if you hit something you're going to get a wound, probably...unless the thing has an Invulnerable save or Cover or multiple Wounds and FNP with a high T.
To that I say, invuln saves via shields are meant to stop a tank hunter like a Vanquisher from destroying the target - no amount of armour should be safe from one of those things.
As for FNP, isn't the Stimulant Injector an optional upgrade for the Riptide? It would also be something I'd remove from the Riptide if it were to become a Walker - 40k isn't complex enough to want to cover things like vehicle crews outside of Crew Shaken/Crew Stunned, but I reckon it isn't needed or friendly for vehicles to take.
Usually I'd say the Vanquisher would penetrate armour rather than glance, so you have a good chance of doing serious damage to the Riptide rather than just taking a Hull Point off it.
The Riptide needs to either have a 3+ armour (like a Crisis suit) or have its Jet-pack removed (like a Broadside). Then lower the invul Nova charge to only a 4++ and bump it to an even 200pts before upgrades and you have a solid unit that pays for what it is.
In other words, remove everything that makes a Riptide a Riptide, like the armour and the jetpack. I seem to feel like this discussion is doing a 360 cycle..
I didn't say the armour AND the Jet-pack, I said the armour OR the jetpack. If you look at all the other suits, they all have 3+ armour, except the Broadside, which does not have a Jet-pack. What makes a Riptide a Riptide is that it is an MC Crisis suit, just like a Ghost keel is an MC Stealth suit, and a Storm Surge is a GMC Broadside.
All the Riptide needs to "stand out" as an MC version of a Crisis suit is: increased Toughness & wounds, check, Access to heavier weapons, check, 1 fun special rule (Nova Charge), check. It does NOT have to have a 2+ armour or access to a 3++ to be a Riptide.
I can only see the Storm Surge being a Walker since it has 2 pilots and probably uses a form of AI to help. Being controlled from multiple sources like this is what causes effects like "Crew Stunned", etc. Having 1 source (the pilot) and a sophisticated processing system (unlike Ork or Imperial Tech) is what gives a Riptide & Ghost keel the ability to function like MCs rather than Walkers. Even the Grey Knight Dread Knight uses advanced tech that has been lost to the rest of the Imperium.
Basically that is the main difference between a Walker and a techno MC. Walkers use less sophisticated tech. I would rather MCs (and GMCs) had damage charts then making these MCs into Walkers.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/04 16:06:26
I didn't say the armour AND the Jet-pack, I said the armour OR the jetpack.
My mistake - I misread your post. Either way, both are defining qualities of the XV104 and what it needs to be effective.
If you look at all the other suits, they all have 3+ armour, except the Broadside, which does not have a Jet-pack.
The other suits don't use the same Nanocrystalline alloy as the Riptide, which has been created exclusively for it. The Broadside sacrifices mobility for the extra armour; the Riptide is a much later Tau invention that uses more perfected materials and designs.
All the Riptide needs to "stand out" as an MC version of a Crisis suit is: increased Toughness & wounds, check, Access to heavier weapons, check, 1 fun special rule (Nova Charge), check. It does NOT have to have a 2+ armour or access to a 3++ to be a Riptide.
See above for why it has a 2+ armour save. However, I would say a 3++ save is excessive with that in mind - the Riptide's Shield is more of an afterthought design wise, in case a Tank Hunter manages to get the Riptide in its sights.
I can only see the Storm Surge being a Walker since it has 2 pilots and probably uses a form of AI to help. Being controlled from multiple sources like this is what causes effects like "Crew Stunned", etc. Having 1 source (the pilot) and a sophisticated processing system (unlike Ork or Imperial Tech) is what gives a Riptide & Ghost keel the ability to function like MCs rather than Walkers. Even the Grey Knight Dread Knight uses advanced tech that has been lost to the rest of the Imperium.
Basically that is the main difference between a Walker and a techno MC. Walkers use less sophisticated tech. I would rather MCs (and GMCs) had damage charts then making these MCs into Walkers.
Regardless of how many pilots a vehicle has, they can still be stunned by a penetrating shot. A Monstrous Creature is (or should be, at least) a representation of a hulking organic tank, not something Walker sized like a Riptide.
The Stormsurge should absolutely be a Walker as it is classed as a Ballistic Suit by the Tau - a Walking Tank. Just because it has a Shas'rve and a Ves'oni'Vash (a Ballistic Suit graduate) rather than a Shas'ui (or Shas'rve in terms of the Riptide and Ghostkeel) doesn't mean it has less sophisticated technology, or that the pilot of the Riptide and Ghostkeel suits are immune to being shaken or stunned in combat.
I do like that idea of a damage chart for Monstrous Creatures, how that would translate to Monstrous Creatures like Carnifexes is another question.
40k is a mess as a ruleset, honestly, and I won't claim to have the right answer to this problem. I'm here mainly to point out the purpose of the Riptide in the lore for more qualified people to translate.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/04 17:00:48
And fluff can be changed, In fact it often is changed between editions. The Nanocrystalline alloy could easily be made to be how the Riptide is able to use its Nova reactor.
When the Riptide first came out, most agreed that it was a big Crisis suit, now that the Ghost Keel & Storm Surge exist, this is even more confirmed, thus it should function just like a big Crisis suit.
Honestly, 40K needs a new unit type that is between Walker & MC. Then Tau MCs & DKs can be that unit type. If the rules are done right for this unit type, you can make all Tau suits into that type, maybe even certain Necron units. Leave the MC type to Nids & Chaos, leave the Walker type to Imperials & Orks
I would not be surpirsed
Everyone thought Codex Eldar: Wave Serpent was gonna get toned down, then GW released Codex Eldar: Scatterbike & WK
Is the Grav rule laid out in the Marine codex? I know it is in the BRB, but if it isn't also in the Marine codex, that cold very well be a change to 8th ed that would make the Riptide better
Fluff should always be taken with a pinch (sometimes a mountain) of salt when it comes to translation into game rules. Personally, I've always considered 40k fluff to be propaganda at best. In the fluff, to a certan degree, everything is always the coolest and most powerful evar.
As I see it, a Riptide should be a reasonably tough and versatile linebreaker vehicle. By "reasonably tough" I mean something like a 12/12/12 walker vehicle with a 5++ save (upped to a 4++ via nova charge). And nothing more. The Decimator I'm assembling and painting at the moment is 13/12/11 with a 5++ (which can't be upgraded) but that one is expected to be a heavy siege/assault half-demon murder machine. And it costs 205 freaking points without any upgrades or shooty weapons (beyond the heavy flamers). Ah the joys of IA13, that book that according to some people turns CSM into a "competitive army" (competitive against what?).
Yes, I acknowledge the Riptide is not the only thing currently undercosted and probably overpowered in the game right now. Perhaps it's not even the worst offender (hello whole Eldar codex). Many, many things would need to be toned down and changed for the game to merely approach a state of "balance". So please people stop with the usual but but but my army needs its X to deal with Y. I don't care if your spessss mehreeens need grav to deal with Riptides, first because my CSM don't have access to grav and I have to face Riptides all the same, second because grav (as it's been implemented in 40k) is another aberration that needs to go.
Progress is like a herd of pigs: everybody is interested in the produced benefits, but nobody wants to deal with all the resulting gak.
GW customers deserve every bit of outrageous princing they get.
I don't know what this means, but I assume it means fluff is not equivalent to the game rules.
Well, yeah
You've seen the Movie Marines, right? Because that's what Space Marines are according to the fluff.
Not always - you just always hear the stories of a single Space Marine stopping a planetary invasion more than the ones where entire Companies are wiped out in one fell swoop.
I find the term "Movie Marines" and the rules that have been created for them to be excessive - they are understated in the current version of 40k by a long margin, yes, but they don't always end up as godlike killing machines.
Galef wrote:And fluff can be changed, In fact it often is changed between editions. The Nanocrystalline alloy could easily be made to be how the Riptide is able to use its Nova reactor.
When the Riptide first came out, most agreed that it was a big Crisis suit, now that the Ghost Keel & Storm Surge exist, this is even more confirmed, thus it should function just like a big Crisis suit.
The Riptide is essentially a big Crisis Suit - it has been designed to fill in the two flaws that XV8s have - lack of heavy weaponry, and lack of resistance to small arms fire.
Fluff does change, yes. How that affects the Riptide at this current time, I'm unsure.
Honestly, 40K needs a new unit type that is between Walker & MC. Then Tau MCs & DKs can be that unit type. If the rules are done right for this unit type, you can make all Tau suits into that type, maybe even certain Necron units. Leave the MC type to Nids & Chaos, leave the Walker type to Imperials & Orks
I think it's best to leave any Tau Suit that isn't larger than Mass Class 8 as Infantry. However, I'd like your idea to be brought to the Hazard and Riptide Suits, which are Class 9 and Class 10 respectively. Past that onto the Ballistic Suits, I'd make them Walkers.
Korinov wrote:Fluff should always be taken with a pinch (sometimes a mountain) of salt when it comes to translation into game rules. Personally, I've always considered 40k fluff to be propaganda at best. In the fluff, to a certan degree, everything is always the coolest and most powerful evar.
I agreed a few posts back that the 40k game is a pretty poor reflection of what is written in the lore. Whether 40k fluff is propaganda or not is another debate for another time; personally I think it takes a consistent unbiased view on the universe, despite the reader only being able to understand a lot of the lore through what humanity knows, with things like the exact composition of Tau Composite being a mystery to both the Imperium and the reader. However, such insights are minimal, and probably are an excuse for writers to not have to explain their creations past "Space Science. Deal with it". Hop over to any Xenos or Chaos Codex and you uncover a bunch of information that the Imperium or even other factions can't know.
Oh the dramatic irony when you read into every faction's lore...
As I see it, a Riptide should be a reasonably tough and versatile linebreaker vehicle. By "reasonably tough" I mean something like a 12/12/12 walker vehicle with a 5++ save (upped to a 4++ via nova charge). And nothing more. The Decimator I'm assembling and painting at the moment is 13/12/11 with a 5++ (which can't be upgraded) but that one is expected to be a heavy siege/assault half-demon murder machine. And it costs 205 freaking points without any upgrades or shooty weapons (beyond the heavy flamers). Ah the joys of IA13, that book that according to some people turns CSM into a "competitive army" (competitive against what?).
The problem I see with the Riptide is that so many of its wargear upgrades are an insta-take for any competitive player with a brain. Why wouldn't you take a Ion Accelerator for 5 points?; why wouldn't you take a Stimulant Injector? etc. Addressing those would also help the Riptide be a lot more palatable.
Yes, I acknowledge the Riptide is not the only thing currently undercosted and probably overpowered in the game right now. Perhaps it's not even the worst offender (hello whole Eldar codex). Many, many things would need to be toned down and changed for the game to merely approach a state of "balance". So please people stop with the usual but but but my army needs its X to deal with Y. I don't care if your spessss mehreeens need grav to deal with Riptides, first because my CSM don't have access to grav and I have to face Riptides all the same
We didn't just make a CSM/SM comparison, did we?
Should put a trigger warning on your post
In all seriousness, that statement's a little ironic. You're saying SM shouldn't have Grav because you as a CSM player don't have access to Grav. Should I be asking for Lance Weapons as an Imperial Guard player now?
second because grav (as it's been implemented in 40k) is another aberration that needs to go.
Yeah, I'd say so. Nice idea, but I don't think anyone was prepared for how insanely good it can be. I would like to see it stay, of course, but it does need to be addressed.
In all seriousness, that statement's a little ironic. You're saying SM shouldn't have Grav because you as a CSM player don't have access to Grav. Should I be asking for Lance Weapons as an Imperial Guard player now?
second because grav (as it's been implemented in 40k) is another aberration that needs to go.
Yeah, I'd say so. Nice idea, but I don't think anyone was prepared for how insanely good it can be. I would like to see it stay, of course, but it does need to be addressed.
Keeping in mind that as I say this, I have never played in the HH 30k setting. I would have no issue with CSM getting a reprint of a 30k codex for use in the 40k universe. For that matter, I have a massive problem with the fact that CSM don't have access to all the retconned new(original) toys that are available to the newer SM codecii. While Obliterators can be retconned as corrupted Centurions, there are no clear corollaries for Land Speeders, many if any of the flyers, or even Drop Pods without dipping into FW.
'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
carldooley wrote: I would have no issue with CSM getting a reprint of a 30k codex for use in the 40k universe
I would; 30K Traitor Space Marines are not 40K Chaos Space Marines by any stretch of the imagination.
For that matter, I have a massive problem with the fact that CSM don't have access to all the retconned new(original) toys that are available to the newer SM codecii. While Obliterators can be retconned as corrupted Centurions, there are no clear corollaries for Land Speeders, many if any of the flyers, or even Drop Pods without dipping into FW.
This is because most CSM either couldn't maintain the technology even with the help of the Dark Mechanicum, or because they threw it out because it doesn't suit their methods of warfare. The idea of Land Speeders, Land Speeder Storms and Scouts, to take a few examples, don't feel very Chaosy both in terms of tactics and aesthetics.
The Legions do hold onto some old tech they had back in the 31st millennium. However, most of this is twisted beyond recognition to its old counterpart thanks to the tides of the warp. The stuff that is well maintained and used also represents a niche of Chaos Space Marines who still have a sense of deep strategy and planning, and who aren't bloodthirsty slaves to the Dark Gods by now.
The idea that they couldn't maintain things like Land Speeders is somewhat silly. If they can manage Daemon engines, Terminator armor, Sicarans, Fire Raptors, etc, surely a Land Speeder or Assault Cannon is not beyond them.
Especially for more recent "renegades", who wouldn't even have anything like the combi bolters and reaper autocannons and havoc launchers of the original traitor Legions.
Besides, it's not like the Dark Mechanicus is restricted by the same dogma as the Adeptus Mechanicus, they're free to run wild and invent all sorts of crazy new stuff.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Vaktathi wrote: The idea that they couldn't maintain things like Land Speeders is somewhat silly. If they can manage Daemon engines, Terminator armor, Sicarans, Fire Raptors, etc, surely a Land Speeder or Assault Cannon is not beyond them.
A Land Speeder is an anti grav vehicle - something that would require careful attention and the correct parts to keep running.
Daemon Engines are manifestations of the warp - I think they can be counted out of your argument here for obvious reasons.
Terminator Armour is an item that would bind to the flesh of the wearer over time as Warp exposure increases, with mutations filling in the gaps where the armour gets damaged.
Especially for more recent "renegades", who wouldn't even have anything like the combi bolters and reaper autocannons and havoc launchers of the original traitor Legions.
Besides, it's not like the Dark Mechanicus is restricted by the same dogma as the Adeptus Mechanicus, they're free to run wild and invent all sorts of crazy new stuff.
I did not say that these vehicles and weapons do not exist in CSM armouries. However, they are so few and far between that inclusion into the regular CSM codex doesn't seem practical.
All the 30K FW stuff can be run in 40K anyway by SM and CSM, usually as Lords of War to represent their rarity.
I'll also add that Renegade Chapters can for the most part be considered to function as normal Space Marines for the first few decades of their turn to Chaos, for whatever reason that may be. As time wears on, however, equipment will be lost and damaged beyond any easy fix, even in the hands of the Dark Mechanicum; from that point, high maintinence vehicles will either have to be improvised on beyond their original design, or ditched in favour of STC designs that parts can easily be sourced for.
Vaktathi wrote: The idea that they couldn't maintain things like Land Speeders is somewhat silly. If they can manage Daemon engines, Terminator armor, Sicarans, Fire Raptors, etc, surely a Land Speeder or Assault Cannon is not beyond them.
A Land Speeder is an anti grav vehicle - something that would require careful attention and the correct parts to keep running.
And flyer drop pods, gunships, power weapons, plasma guns, starships, power armor, ancient relic battle tanks, etc don't? It would seem everything involving Space Marines of any kind requires insane amounts of careful maintenance and attention given the blistering array of complex systems they all operate.
Daemon Engines are manifestations of the warp - I think they can be counted out of your argument here for obvious reasons.
Many are forged in the real world and subsequently forcibly possessed, not spawned directly from the warp. The Defiler is one such daemon engine.
Terminator Armour is an item that would bind to the flesh of the wearer over time as Warp exposure increases, with mutations filling in the gaps where the armour gets damaged.
Only in some cases, Terminator armor is a hot commodity amongst the up and coming Champions, it can absolutely be taken off and require repairs and the like.
I did not say that these vehicles and weapons do not exist in CSM armouries. However, they are so few and far between that inclusion into the regular CSM codex doesn't seem practical.
Eh, maybe, though it wouldn't seem any less so for the CSM's than for loyalists really.
I'll also add that Renegade Chapters can for the most part be considered to function as normal Space Marines for the first few decades of their turn to Chaos, for whatever reason that may be. As time wears on, however, equipment will be lost and damaged beyond any easy fix, even in the hands of the Dark Mechanicum; from that point, high maintinence vehicles will either have to be improvised on beyond their original design, or ditched in favour of STC designs that parts can easily be sourced for.
Sure, but when they show up with equipment they never had and that bears no resemblance to anything they'd even have around to scrounge (e.g. Reaper Autocannons, Defilers, etc), it gets kinda weird
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Vaktathi wrote: The idea that they couldn't maintain things like Land Speeders is somewhat silly. If they can manage Daemon engines, Terminator armor, Sicarans, Fire Raptors, etc, surely a Land Speeder or Assault Cannon is not beyond them.
Especially for more recent "renegades", who wouldn't even have anything like the combi bolters and reaper autocannons and havoc launchers of the original traitor Legions.
Besides, it's not like the Dark Mechanicus is restricted by the same dogma as the Adeptus Mechanicus, they're free to run wild and invent all sorts of crazy new stuff.
My take on that is the traitors have either lost interest (Land Speeders) or lack infrastructure (Assault Cannon). Plasmaguns, Autocannons, Heavy Bolters, those are all far more common within the Imperium, and easier to pirate/steal and get ammunition for. Assault Cannons are rarer, and thus just isn't as useful for forces that are on a constant rampage without a supply chain. Better to rely on guns that you can always shoot.
Land Speeders are more of a support vehicle, and the renegades are just less interested in support, and more into individual killing and bloodshed. Again, also might be logistically difficult to maintain for lack of replacement parts. It's less that they don't have the tech, and more that they operate without robust supply chains. Constantly on the move, improvising, stealing and raiding.
