Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 pumaman1 wrote:
Never miss an opportunity to improve your literacy.

Perhaps, but I would try to be considerate of rule no.1 more in the future; not everyone can be as well articulated as the next person.

To meet in the middle, Pro-Tau have to agree that a points increase, support system limitation, firepower decrease is acceptable, survivability decrease is acceptable, or some combination of the prior.
Anti-Tau would need to agree that the riptide as-is is NOT immortal, should still be good when it's done (just not as overwhelmingly so), this isn't the time for revenge, and external codex balance may make it so that your codex doesn't quite compete still (sorry CSM, Orks).

The problem, from my perspective, is rarely are offers from either side not stated with some hyperbole, OR affects someones favorite facet of the riptide more than they want. Some players would give up the weaponry to have a 2+/3++/5+++ monster that can score, others would turn it into a glass cannon as long as we can keep S8/9 AP2 large blasts with interceptor. So a compromise to the 1 players neuters exactly what they want the riptide to be.

I don't sit either in the Pro Tau or Anti Tau rings, because I see both of those groups as taking things too far. The ground that needs to be found is a place where the Riptide still stands as a good unit, but is fairly included into the game to allow for a better sense of fair play and fun when going against it.

Really this should be done to every unit in the game, but we'd be here till eternity. For now, in regards to the Riptide, I think a points increase should be the starting point. Next is the reconsideration to a Walker type; it seems to be controversial on this thread, but if a Dreadnought is classed as a Walker, it is only fair that a Riptide is classed in the same manner. The Riptide is a tank of sorts, so I will continue to propose a front armour value of 13, with the sides and rear either being 11 or 10. That puts it on equal turf as a Venerable Dread, before saves are put in the equation. After that, keep the Shield Generator at a 5++. or 4 if it is Nova Charged.

Increase the price of the Ion Accelerator, and either increase the price of the Stimulant Injector or trash it; 40k is not complex enough for crew management, where something like the Stimulant Injector could have been used as a way to stop the pilot from receiving a incapacitating injury. With the rules as simple as they are for vehicles, I consider the Stimulant Injector to be one save too many on a vehicle.

Then obviously give the Riptide rules to make Jet Pack moves. How does this sound now?

Boneswords are indeed the Tyranid answer to a lot of things.

 General Annoyance wrote:

Really this should be done to every unit in the game, but we'd be here till eternity. For now, in regards to the Riptide, I think a points increase should be the starting point. Next is the reconsideration to a Walker type; it seems to be controversial on this thread, but if a Dreadnought is classed as a Walker, it is only fair that a Riptide is classed in the same manner. The Riptide is a tank of sorts, so I will continue to propose a front armour value of 13, with the sides and rear either being 11 or 10. That puts it on equal turf as a Venerable Dread, before saves are put in the equation. After that, keep the Shield Generator at a 5++. or 4 if it is Nova Charged.

Increase the price of the Ion Accelerator, and either increase the price of the Stimulant Injector or trash it; 40k is not complex enough for crew management, where something like the Stimulant Injector could have been used as a way to stop the pilot from receiving a incapacitating injury. With the rules as simple as they are for vehicles, I consider the Stimulant Injector to be one save too many on a vehicle.

Then obviously give the Riptide rules to make Jet Pack moves. How does this sound now?

I appreciate your desire to stay as unbiased as possible, but that rule set will make for an extremely weak unit. I'm making this judgement purely comparing it to only to other tau codex choices.

Proposed Riptide Ruleset- more than 185 points
13/11/10 Walker with a Strength 8 AP 2 pie plate and SMS system.
Defensively it has a 5++ and can risk a wound for a 4++
It has 4 wounds (since statistically it'll wound itself at least once a game).
6" movement + 2d6 jump

Hammerhead - 125 points
13/12/10 skimmer with a Str 8 AP 3 pie plate and SMS system.
Defensively it has a 4+ jink that can be upgrade to a 3+
It has 3 wounds.
Effective 6" movement, but can move up to 12" if necessary. Ignores terrain/models while moving.

The hammerhead is less durable in CC, but it cannot be locked in combat which I'd guess is basically a wash.

AP 3 -> AP 2, +1 wound and slightly better movement isn't worth remotely close to 60 points and you want to make the riptide and Ion Accelerator even more expensive? Unless you're intentionally weakening your army there would be no reason to take this riptide over a hammerhead unless you're encountering mono-terminator grey knight army lists.

Invulnerable saves are a LOT better than Jink saves.

And don't forget-to get the 4+ (3+) on a Devilfish, you're snap shooting next turn.

For me, giving it a walker profile is an instant no. Walker is largely an IoM tax in my mind for having 1/2 the playable models in the game as battle brothers.

Stimulant injectors, take them. I'd rather FNP be removed entirely from the game, or be properly categorized as a save (because it blatantly is one).

And with null-deploy formations, and abundant turn 1 deep strike, even new formations: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/10/40k-strike-force-ultima-formation-confirmed.html
Interceptor is ok to counter space marines shenanigans, maybe 10 points per model instead of 5.

Armor 3+ I would accept it with no other changes than those above.

3+ armor is a huge change alone. I'd play test that change alone first.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Invulnerable saves are a LOT better than Jink saves.

And don't forget-to get the 4+ (3+) on a Devilfish, you're snap shooting next turn.

Yes an invulnerable save it noticeably better, but not by as much as you think. Say you get hit by two melta rounds. The difference between saves is very minimal. With either the 4++ or 4+ jink you should make one save and they'll probably get a penetrating hit against you.

1/3 chance that's going to stun or shake you and 1/3 chance it blows you up both of which have the same result as jinking. The other 1/3 of the time is immobilized/weapon destroyed in which jinking is worse. Now this isn't a perfect comparison, as your opponent can just take a shot or two at you to make you jink and then ignore you the rest of the turn as opposed to having to dedicate shots at your invulnerable until they pen you. So in practice against models with a single lascannon or melta gun, the jink save is tactically worse. However, against squads that can consistently get 2 penetrating hits the difference is fairly small.

Ontop of which decent natural cover and positioning can reduce the need to jink in a game, making the difference even less.

Yes ignore cover is a thing and you can't jink against CC. Invulnerable saves are better but not enough to salvage this unit. You'd take 3 hammerheads over 2 of these walker riptides everytime. It isn't even close.

[edit]: Forgot to add the AP1 modifier into my calculations.

You forget that jinking neuters your shooting.

I'd also bump up the price a bit on the Hammerhead and give it a D-weapon. But not too much because a single shaken screws over your D-weapon.

One other thing: take away smash from the Riptide. It doesn't deserve to be able to whip terminators in CC. Which it can because MCs OP.

Martel732 wrote:
3+ armor is a huge change alone. I'd play test that change alone first.

The reason I am less worried about 3+ armor, in the era of grav spam, it actually makes them more survivable. And as proposed, still has the opportunity for a 3++, but risking the wound 1/3rd of the time. Versus a horde, it actually will take more wounds, so guardsmen/boyz and especially power weapons will be worth an investment.

The weakness it opens up more than my initial thought to force weapons, however. If you don't get the 3++ you are really vulnerable.

Poison becomes a thing again. That's why the 3+ matters a lot. 2+ armor turns off poison in practice.

Your terminators for lightning claws will go first and kill it in 1 charge, should you have 3 or more survive.

 pumaman1 wrote:
Your terminators for lightning claws will go first and kill it in 1 charge, should you have 3 or more survive.

It still needs to lose smash so tac termies can beat it up too. Riptide should lose to anything resembling CC and it's just too dangerous with smash. Give it rending instead.

 JNAProductions wrote:
You forget that jinking neuters your shooting.

Markerlights are a thing. Jinking just means we need more.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Markerlights are a thing. Jinking just means we need more.

Markerlights don't let you fire blasts.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Markerlights are a thing. Jinking just means we need more.

Markerlights don't let you fire blasts.

That is true, I forgot we were talking about blasts

Carry on people, my brain has had a dumb.

Let Tau vehicles buy an upgrade to jink without snap firing. Almost like they have real targeting systems. They're vehicles; you can give them all kinds of love without them becoming OP because vehicles are so fething terrible right now.

Martel732 wrote:
Poison becomes a thing again. That's why the 3+ matters a lot. 2+ armor turns off poison in practice.

Yes. With a 3+, it dies like a tactical squad to poison, even with FNP. And Tactical Marines have never been famous for their hardiness.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Poison becomes a thing again. That's why the 3+ matters a lot. 2+ armor turns off poison in practice.

Yes. With a 3+, it dies like a tactical squad to poison, even with FNP. And Tactical Marines have never been famous for their hardiness.

Actually tac squads are pretty tough per point, they just have no offense to speak of. Until the grav cannon. So BA tac squads are left with no offense.

Martel732 wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
Your terminators for lightning claws will go first and kill it in 1 charge, should you have 3 or more survive.

It still needs to lose smash so tac termies can beat it up too. Riptide should lose to anything resembling CC and it's just too dangerous with smash. Give it rending instead.

Now, to be fair, a riptide could kick a terminator away. And WS 2 I2 3A, I honestly don't think smash (AP2 or 1 s10ap2 attack) is that much to ask IF it survives long enough.
OR let the Earth Cast Pilot Array be taken by 1 riptide per army. WS 1, but re-roll 1s in shooting and Nova charge. Since it's a signature system, we currently cannot take a "relic" expressly designed for the unit.

WS 2 still hits on a 4. If terminators were WS 5 stock, I'd agree.

Yes, a riptide could kick a terminator, but there is NO WAY it should ignoring armor that thick. In fact, I think smash should be a much rarer ability. There's many MCs that probably shouldn't have it. AP 2 on init in melee is LOT to ask in general. I have to take crappy ass dreadnoughts to get it. Dreadnoughts whose shooting and durability are both awful.

Just give it only one attack.

It has no melee weapon or even a fist. It is going to try to awkwardly kick you.

With its massive range and impressive burst mobility it can evade melee well, so punishing bad plays seems fair.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Just give it one attack.

It has no melee weapon or even a fist. It is going to try to awkwardly kick you.

I don't know. AP 2 is really not appropriate without giant claws or a blade of some kind. Most Tyranid MCs probably shouldn't have AP 2, either. Nor unarmed demon princes. Melee AP 2 is just as much a culprit at making sanguinary guard and tac terminators worthless as the shooting. No matter what weapons I give sanguinary guard, they lose to a Riptide in CC.

I actually agree. But I'd be fine with either.

Sangs and Termies are not going to be scared by 1 attack MCs either even if the attack is AP2 so it should be fine either way.

And now we have the Tau "FMC" crisis suit as an example of how to give some of the MC/FMC rules without giving all of them. It would be pretty easy to make the Riptide's unit type MC, but with only AP 4 attacks.

 Peregrine wrote:
And now we have the Tau "FMC" crisis suit as an example of how to give some of the MC/FMC rules without giving all of them. It would be pretty easy to make the Riptide's unit type MC, but with only AP 4 attacks.

AP 4 or rending is fine. As it would be for many other MCs.

AP4 3 attacks, or trade in for 1 Sx2 (ie 10) ap2 attack? Combining the proposed smash and current smash?

 pumaman1 wrote:
AP4 3 attacks, or trade in for 1 Sx2 (ie 10) ap2 attack? Combining the proposed smash and current smash?

Yeah, that's fine. You are stepping on one sanguinary guard REALLY hard. I can buy that much more than ignoring 2+ armor willy-nilly. I'd also propose that super heavies and GMCs can't STOMP MCs and walkers. Make them swing that D-chainsword or be stuck punching in the case of the WK.

So currently the proposed, 180 points base, for a :
Ws 2 Bs3 S6 T6 W5 A3 I2 LD9 3+, with the "normal/current" Nova profile and armament.
It can take support systems less Shield generator, vectored retro-thrusts (both current), and stimulant injectors.
We will add 1 ECPA per army to re-roll 1s to hit, and re-roll nova charge.
Riptide wing is shuffled to Apocalypse only, but each turn it doesn't move it can hail-fire (because tau are garbage in apoc, but it doesn't belong in codex 40k)
Smash, in general is Ap4 at initiative, unless with a weapon that specifies differently (ie carnifex), but can be traded in for 1 s 10 ap2 attack (at initiate).

Am I missing anything we came to?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And for reference, in the farsight enclaves book, the ECPA was 50 points, not cheap, but still sorta' an auto-include.

Oh and take gets hot off the nova charge burst cannon. That's so incredibly dumb.