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Trasvi wrote: .I'd love to face that 4 riptide list with my daemonkin. Sounds like a pretty easy game. Get in combat turn 2, multi charge some fire warriors and watch the riptides run away.
I don't know what kind of lists you guys are trying to use, but riptides are far from invincible. They're tough, but their firepower is pretty lame for the 220pts they cost. They have equivalent firepower to a Ion hammerhead.. I get that some of you want them to never see the light of day, but suggestions like making them 300pts are laughable.
Riptides are supposed to be tanky. That's the role they fill. Before riptides, Tau capped at av13 and the majority of the army is MEQ. Riptide gives Tau something they can use to take the fight to the enemy.
If you want to nerf riptides fairly, my suggestions would be removing the overheat profile. Leave the 3 S7 and the S9, but don't let it Pie-plate on the same turn it ripple-fires or 3++'s.
If you really want to kill it, take away a wound, and make it lose Smash.
And kill the riptide wing. That is single-honestly the worst designed formation ever. Formations should give buffs to bad units or give special rules in exchange for restricted army building: the Wing gives you additional special rules on an already good unit for no penalty AND allows non-Tau tax-free access.
Riptides can be summed up with my reply from another thread:
Spoiler:
Tau are a nightmare army to face. There strengths lie in shooting, so logic dictates that you ditch the slugging war and get straight into melee but:
-So, you want to get into melee? Okay then, try slugging through 3 to 4 turns worth of BS 5 Ignores Cover S 5+ shooting.
-Okay, so that didnt work, lets try transports next..... And cue the S 5+ shooting once more as most transports in the game are shredded by HP stripping glances.
-Well, how about we use an armoured thrust and beat the gak out of them with heavy armour? Oh look, Tau have special formations that let them pimpslap your rear armour.
-Tau player didnt bring said formation? Great, now lets just try to make it through the hordes of JSJ Fusion Blaster suits, railguns and Gundam scale artillery platforms.
-Okay, so that did not work out, lets try an alternate form of delivery - Deep Striking! Okay, so I drop this in here and, wait, you get how many Interceptor shots?!
-Outflanking! Okay then, that didnt work out....
-How about we actually try and slug it out? *Cue several turns of the tau player out ranging and out gunning most opponents*.
-You made it close? Watch as his suits run away a bit, blast you, and then run away some more.
-You finally, either by some miracle, fluke, formation bonus, cheesey special rule or just plain luck got a unit or two within charging range. The tau player overwatches. Cue his entire army (or a significant proportion thereof) shooting up each of your units in turn, oh and because of Tau special rules they are usually doing it at BS 5 Ignores Cover.
-You manage to make it into close combat. But the Tau have Hit and Run.
Long story short, the tau is a shooty army that is also very good at countering its weaknesses and very difficult to engage without Mary Sue grade formations and characters.
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
So really it isn't the formation that breaks Riptides, its the fact that the unit is severely under priced. If those things were 250 base with IoA costing 25pts then it would be a lot closer to where it should be.
You wanted a much larger point increase for them previously...
SemperMortis wrote: But if your going to try and price this thing correctly then it should be around 350-400pts.
Tau are a nightmare army to face. There strengths lie in shooting, so logic dictates that you ditch the slugging war and get straight into melee but:
-So, you want to get into melee? Okay then, try slugging through 3 to 4 turns worth of BS 5 Ignores Cover S 5+ shooting.
-Okay, so that didnt work, lets try transports next..... And cue the S 5+ shooting once more as most transports in the game are shredded by HP stripping glances.
-Well, how about we use an armoured thrust and beat the gak out of them with heavy armour? Oh look, Tau have special formations that let them pimpslap your rear armour.
-Tau player didnt bring said formation? Great, now lets just try to make it through the hordes of JSJ Fusion Blaster suits, railguns and Gundam scale artillery platforms.
-Okay, so that did not work out, lets try an alternate form of delivery - Deep Striking! Okay, so I drop this in here and, wait, you get how many Interceptor shots?!
-Outflanking! Okay then, that didnt work out....
-How about we actually try and slug it out? *Cue several turns of the tau player out ranging and out gunning most opponents*.
-You made it close? Watch as his suits run away a bit, blast you, and then run away some more.
-You finally, either by some miracle, fluke, formation bonus, cheesey special rule or just plain luck got a unit or two within charging range. The tau player overwatches. Cue his entire army (or a significant proportion thereof) shooting up each of your units in turn, oh and because of Tau special rules they are usually doing it at BS 5 Ignores Cover.
-You manage to make it into close combat. But the Tau have Hit and Run.
Long story short, the tau is a shooty army that is also very good at countering its weaknesses and very difficult to engage without Mary Sue grade formations and characters.
Jeremy Vetock designed the Tau to be as much as annoying as possible. Is not the sheer power, is the fact that everything they do is done to frustrate the opponent. This is the first army designed to not let the other player play the game.
It has a dreadful charm, if you ask me.
My question is: is coincidental? Or just Vetock hates people?
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis!
So really it isn't the formation that breaks Riptides, its the fact that the unit is severely under priced. If those things were 250 base with IoA costing 25pts then it would be a lot closer to where it should be.
You wanted a much larger point increase for them previously...
SemperMortis wrote: But if your going to try and price this thing correctly then it should be around 350-400pts.
Would you consider 350+ too much now?
No, honesty if you compared them to the closest Ork Equivalent (Morkanaut) a riptide should be 350-400pts. But since the ork codex is a broken pile of crap I decided to go with a more friendly 250pts base with the upgrades costing more. Why? because I have learned that I can't judge the "Have" Codex's against us "Have nots" because if we brought everyone down to the ork level to many units would be unplayable garbage and it would ruin the game.
Martel732 wrote: I could justify 350, given that it takes triple the firepower to take down a Riptide as it does an IK. But 350 is not a serious proposal.
Well duh. At that point we'd bring Stormsurges instead.
'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
Martel732 wrote: I could justify 350, given that it takes triple the firepower to take down a Riptide as it does an IK. But 350 is not a serious proposal.
Well duh. At that point we'd bring Stormsurges instead.
Assuming we didn't increase Stormsurge accordingly as well. Although Stormsurge is a little different having 3+ armor.
Martel732 wrote: I could justify 350, given that it takes triple the firepower to take down a Riptide as it does an IK. But 350 is not a serious proposal.
Well duh. At that point we'd bring Stormsurges instead.
which are in the same boat as the riptide, Far to cheap for how much they can do. I hate to do this again but its my only expertise in regards to army.
The closest thing to a stormsurge in the Ork codex is the Stompa which costs literally more then TWICE as much and has LESS dakka.
Tau are a nightmare army to face. There strengths lie in shooting, so logic dictates that you ditch the slugging war and get straight into melee but:
-So, you want to get into melee? Okay then, try slugging through 3 to 4 turns worth of BS 5 Ignores Cover S 5+ shooting.
-Okay, so that didnt work, lets try transports next..... And cue the S 5+ shooting once more as most transports in the game are shredded by HP stripping glances.
-Well, how about we use an armoured thrust and beat the gak out of them with heavy armour? Oh look, Tau have special formations that let them pimpslap your rear armour.
-Tau player didnt bring said formation? Great, now lets just try to make it through the hordes of JSJ Fusion Blaster suits, railguns and Gundam scale artillery platforms.
-Okay, so that did not work out, lets try an alternate form of delivery - Deep Striking! Okay, so I drop this in here and, wait, you get how many Interceptor shots?!
-Outflanking! Okay then, that didnt work out....
-How about we actually try and slug it out? *Cue several turns of the tau player out ranging and out gunning most opponents*.
-You made it close? Watch as his suits run away a bit, blast you, and then run away some more.
-You finally, either by some miracle, fluke, formation bonus, cheesey special rule or just plain luck got a unit or two within charging range. The tau player overwatches. Cue his entire army (or a significant proportion thereof) shooting up each of your units in turn, oh and because of Tau special rules they are usually doing it at BS 5 Ignores Cover.
-You manage to make it into close combat. But the Tau have Hit and Run.
Long story short, the tau is a shooty army that is also very good at countering its weaknesses and very difficult to engage without Mary Sue grade formations and characters.
Jeremy Vetock designed the Tau to be as much as annoying as possible. Is not the sheer power, is the fact that everything they do is done to frustrate the opponent. This is the first army designed to not let the other player play the game.
It has a dreadful charm, if you ask me.
My question is: is coincidental? Or just Vetock hates people?
You do wonder. After all, Tau are the only army that get potentially up to three shooting phases in a single game (IE, both players turns together) turn: Once in their own turn, once when the not Tau player brings in any DS/Outflanking troops and once when the not Tau player tries to charge. All at (potentially) BS 5 with Ignores Cover.
All in all, this just ruins the game for the non Tau player as there is almost nothing they can do to exploit the Tau's supposed 'weakness'.
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
Jeremy Vetock designed the Tau to be as much as annoying as possible. Is not the sheer power, is the fact that everything they do is done to frustrate the opponent. This is the first army designed to not let the other player play the game.
It has a dreadful charm, if you ask me.
My question is: is coincidental? Or just Vetock hates people?
He hates people, if you ask me. If what you said is true, then even I would be behind removing the Tau faction from the current 40k game. It painfully reminds me of Blue Magic in MTG - denying the other player any ability to play as their spells are constantly countered, often as soon as they are played. It is not a way to design any game.
While it is nice for a certain angle of play in any game to involve denying your opponent an action of some kind by playing a dick move that will be frustrating at first, but laughed about later, having it as a constant theme that can be played through that whole approach is lacking in any skill, fair play, and most importantly, is boring.
Yes, I'm all for strategies in games that involve tying down your opponent one way or another, but those ties should be able to be broken, one way or another, and not by chance. It certainly is no clever design decision to make a playstyle punishing to an opponent no matter what they do.
You might say I'm doing a 180 for saying that Tau should be removed if this is the case, from where I defended the Riptide's right to exist. I accept accidental or just careless mistakes that make units OP - I don't accept them being designed to punish a player unfairly. If that really is what the Riptide is, cut it out, and every other unit from the Tau faction, until someone can write them better. Both players come to a game to play, they don't come together for one guy to play while the other essentially sits and watches their army get brutalised, even when they're not making mistakes.
G.A
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/11 16:06:43
[spoiler]Tau are a nightmare army to face. There strengths lie in shooting, so logic dictates that you ditch the slugging war and get straight into melee but: -So, you want to get into melee? Okay then, try slugging through 3 to 4 turns worth of BS 5 Ignores Cover S 5+ shooting. -Okay, so that didnt work, lets try transports next..... And cue the S 5+ shooting once more as most transports in the game are shredded by HP stripping glances. -Well, how about we use an armoured thrust and beat the gak out of them with heavy armour? Oh look, Tau have special formations that let them pimpslap your rear armour. -Tau player didnt bring said formation? Great, now lets just try to make it through the hordes of JSJ Fusion Blaster suits, railguns and Gundam scale artillery platforms. -Okay, so that did not work out, lets try an alternate form of delivery - Deep Striking! Okay, so I drop this in here and, wait, you get how many Interceptor shots?! -Outflanking! Okay then, that didnt work out.... -How about we actually try and slug it out? *Cue several turns of the tau player out ranging and out gunning most opponents*. -You made it close? Watch as his suits run away a bit, blast you, and then run away some more. -You finally, either by some miracle, fluke, formation bonus, cheesey special rule or just plain luck got a unit or two within charging range. The tau player overwatches. Cue his entire army (or a significant proportion thereof) shooting up each of your units in turn, oh and because of Tau special rules they are usually doing it at BS 5 Ignores Cover. -You manage to make it into close combat. But the Tau have Hit and Run.
Long story short, the tau is a shooty army that is also very good at countering its weaknesses and very difficult to engage without Mary Sue grade formations and characters.
Jeremy Vetock designed the Tau to be as much as annoying as possible. Is not the sheer power, is the fact that everything they do is done to frustrate the opponent. This is the first army designed to not let the other player play the game.
It has a dreadful charm, if you ask me.
My question is: is coincidental? Or just Vetock hates people?[/spoiler]
You do wonder. After all, Tau are the only army that get potentially up to three shooting phases in a single game (IE, both players turns together) turn: Once in their own turn, once when the not Tau player brings in any DS/Outflanking troops and once when the not Tau player tries to charge. All at (potentially) BS 5 with Ignores Cover. All in all, this just ruins the game for the non Tau player as there is almost nothing they can do to exploit the Tau's supposed 'weakness'.
Just Imagine an interview with Vetock
Journalist (an attractive blonde with a self-confident attitude - looks at the camera): "This is Marianne, we have Jeremy Vetock here. Mr Vetock, you are considered a visionary and innovator in Game Design. Tell us some of your secrets" Jeremy Vetock (arms crossed, sunglasses): See Marianne, here at GW we try to be groundbreaking. To explore new territories. Like systems with no points, just throw on the table what you have in the cellar. Now we are exploring the concept of Asymmetrical Fun" M: "Great. Could you tell us more?" JV: "Of course Marianne. There is this old concept of two players-game as something two people play to have fun" M (fascinated): "Go on" JV: "here in GW, we go further than that. I designed my 6th edition Tau Codex using the rules and concept of the Asymmetrical Fun Design. Mind it Marianne, Asymmetrical Fun is a copyrighted terminology, our lawyers are working on that". M (charmed): "G-go on" JV: "Asymmetrical fun dictates that only one player can have fun playing a game. My codex has been carefully playtested and analysed by 3 different statistician in a blind study to ensure that" M: "wow" JV: "Oh, it does not end there. Since the opponent could accidentally have fun from random events occurring on the table, we ensured that he can actually play the damn game as little as possible, every action will be countered. We ensure that his models will be removed as quickly as possible from the tabletop, and his actions and agency stopped. I am particularly proud of this. Also, giants robots." M: "fascinating. Thank you mr. Vetock"
Jeremy Vetock designed the Tau to be as much as annoying as possible. Is not the sheer power, is the fact that everything they do is done to frustrate the opponent. This is the first army designed to not let the other player play the game.
It has a dreadful charm, if you ask me.
My question is: is coincidental? Or just Vetock hates people?
He hates people, if you ask me. If what you said is true, then even I would be behind removing the Tau faction from the current 40k game. It painfully reminds me of Blue Magic in MTG - denying the other player any ability to play as their spells are constantly countered, often as soon as they are played. It is not a way to design any game.
While it is nice for a certain angle of play in any game to involve denying your opponent an action of some kind by playing a dick move that will be frustrating at first, but laughed about later, having it as a constant theme that can be played through that whole approach is lacking in any skill, fair play, and most importantly, is boring.
Yes, I'm all for strategies in games that involve tying down your opponent one way or another, but those ties should be able to be broken, one way or another, and not by chance. It certainly is no clever design decision to make a playstyle punishing to an opponent no matter what they do.
You might say I'm doing a 180 for saying that Tau should be removed if this is the case, from where I defended the Riptide's right to exist. I accept accidental or just careless mistakes that make units OP - I don't accept them being designed to punish a player unfairly. If that really is what the Riptide is, cut it out, and every other unit from the Tau faction, until someone can write them better. Both players come to a game to play, they don't come together for one guy to play while the other essentially sits and watches their army get brutalised, even when they're not making mistakes.
G.A
No it makes sense. I have a great, old friend that is a smart, clever guy, and he loves Tau because of the robots and suits and philosophy and pseudojapanmecha. He would play them even if they were the most underpowered army (when we used to play DnD he was a Rogue player and people, I will never see a Rogue played like that, sadly. Not in 1000 years).
Also, outstanding painter.
Just, I think that he could be better challenged. When FW puts out another Riptide model, I am happy for him because he will have fun building and painting it, is such an artist. I am happy hearing that he will have another cool model but...I cannot help thinking that I would need divine intervention to face all the 5 of them together. Of course he is not an ass and can tune down lists when he plays with me but why should he do a job the designers were supposed to do? Same with every Tau rule.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2016/10/11 16:42:40
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis!
SemperMortis wrote: Without knowing your list I wouldn't be able to say how easy it would be to counter that. But going by what you said, it wouldn't be very difficult for the Tau to destroy your units piecemeal before you can get in charge range. The D-thirster honestly isn't that scary for a 3++ model. I don't know how you have the juggerlord equipped but he is probably as much a threat as the D-thirster and beyond that all you have is the units of hounds which aren't that scary either, especially when they can get doubled out by the Riptides easily.
So Turn 1 you will not get the charge off unless he is stupid enough to deploy forward or move forward on his turn. You have to survive 4 Riptides blowing holes in your forces, then you have to close the distance as he jets away, turn 2 your still not even remotely close enough and he gets another turn of 4 riptides blowing holes in you, this turn your probably going to mulch 1-3 of those firewarrior units but that is what they are there for, also when you do get to assault one of them on turn 2 your opening that unit up to devastating over watch. After that you have to survive yet ANOTHER round of shooting and then after that you might be close enough to assault a riptide or two, but again massive overwatch means you have to survive that. Add to that, the fact that in CC The riptide isn't atrocious. Since its a MC it gets Smash AP2 attacks. But even if you do get to him, survive the smash attacks you still have to break through his 2+ armor 3-5++ and 5+ FNP on a 6 wound model.
Overall, Tau tend to mulch everyone. CC is the answer to tau most of the time but getting there is the problem
Seriously, seeing posts like this make me think you people never played a competitive game in your life. The tau has to stay back turn 1 and yield board control in order to survive. Daemonkin WILL be in cc in turn 2, if they get first turn this Tau army will not even remotely stand a chance. Riptides are WS2, meaning they will kill 0.2 bloodhounds per cc phase when smashing.. and even if you don't kill the riptides, if they are stock in bloodhounds for the rest of the game you can easily score all the objectives and win the scenario (unless you play only killpoints every game, which would explain a lot). Also you are severely exaggerating the potential of overwatch, it is not remotely as powerful as you make it out to be and requires the Tau to clump up, giving up even more board control.
Even when fielding a riptide wing, I lost games by a fair margin against Gladius players even though I killed almost every unit in their army, simply because I could not take board control until turn 5. Start playing proper scenarios and you will see that there are many avenues to victory, and a lot of them don't involve tabling your opponent.
Complaining about the number of lascannon shots a riptide takes is like whining that a riptide can't kill a chapter master in close combat, pls nerf chapter masters.
edit:/ And before this argument comes up again, if you are playing IG or Dark Eldar, you will be having a hard time against riptides yes. But every other codex after Necrons will roll you just as easily, and that's a completely different discussion!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/11 16:42:53
Board control doesn't matter when the tau table most lists on turn 4 or 5. You lost to a gladius. Big shock. But the difference is that you still killed almost everything. Most lists can't even get close to doing that.
And yes, demons are top tier. We already knew that as well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/11 16:45:51
Less durable in which sense? Because riptides certainly die sooner to flesh hounds, grav or bolters than Warhounds.
Seriously, if you play a post-necron codex, you will be able to handle at least 2 riptides in any game if you don't play like an idiot. If you think it's impossible, you just never put in the effort to actually come up with solutions.
SemperMortis wrote: Without knowing your list I wouldn't be able to say how easy it would be to counter that. But going by what you said, it wouldn't be very difficult for the Tau to destroy your units piecemeal before you can get in charge range. The D-thirster honestly isn't that scary for a 3++ model. I don't know how you have the juggerlord equipped but he is probably as much a threat as the D-thirster and beyond that all you have is the units of hounds which aren't that scary either, especially when they can get doubled out by the Riptides easily.
So Turn 1 you will not get the charge off unless he is stupid enough to deploy forward or move forward on his turn. You have to survive 4 Riptides blowing holes in your forces, then you have to close the distance as he jets away, turn 2 your still not even remotely close enough and he gets another turn of 4 riptides blowing holes in you, this turn your probably going to mulch 1-3 of those firewarrior units but that is what they are there for, also when you do get to assault one of them on turn 2 your opening that unit up to devastating over watch. After that you have to survive yet ANOTHER round of shooting and then after that you might be close enough to assault a riptide or two, but again massive overwatch means you have to survive that. Add to that, the fact that in CC The riptide isn't atrocious. Since its a MC it gets Smash AP2 attacks. But even if you do get to him, survive the smash attacks you still have to break through his 2+ armor 3-5++ and 5+ FNP on a 6 wound model.
Overall, Tau tend to mulch everyone. CC is the answer to tau most of the time but getting there is the problem
Seriously, seeing posts like this make me think you people never played a competitive game in your life. The tau has to stay back turn 1 and yield board control in order to survive. Daemonkin WILL be in cc in turn 2, if they get first turn this Tau army will not even remotely stand a chance. Riptides are WS2, meaning they will kill 0.2 bloodhounds per cc phase when smashing.. and even if you don't kill the riptides, if they are stock in bloodhounds for the rest of the game you can easily score all the objectives and win the scenario (unless you play only killpoints every game, which would explain a lot). Also you are severely exaggerating the potential of overwatch, it is not remotely as powerful as you make it out to be and requires the Tau to clump up, giving up even more board control.
Even when fielding a riptide wing, I lost games by a fair margin against Gladius players even though I killed almost every unit in their army, simply because I could not take board control until turn 5. Start playing proper scenarios and you will see that there are many avenues to victory, and a lot of them don't involve tabling your opponent.
Complaining about the number of lascannon shots a riptide takes is like whining that a riptide can't kill a chapter master in close combat, pls nerf chapter masters.
edit:/ And before this argument comes up again, if you are playing IG or Dark Eldar, you will be having a hard time against riptides yes. But every other codex after Necrons will roll you just as easily, and that's a completely different discussion!
KDK will not be in CC Turn 2 against a riptide unless the Tau player is a moron. Those things are AS fast in the movement phase as Beasts, and here is the kicker, they get to JSJ so they shoot hte hell out of your doggies and then jump away. Your guys AT THE MOST can move 12 and run 6, if the eldar player is deployed right that is easily 2 full turns of shooting. And with 4 riptides that is equivalent to 4 dead units easily.
As far as over stating Overwatch? yeah not really. So long as a riptide has some firewarriors or a drone squad nearby it will get boosted to at the very least BS3, but probably closer to BS4 and sometimes BS5. It gets to shoot the piss out of you, and then those firewarriors (probably one of the most under rated troops choices in the game) get to shoot you with their S5 guns at double tap range. Yeah your going to lose a lot of models. And the best part? if you lose enough of those front units your going to fail your charge and guess what? Mr Riptide is going to stroll away, blow more holes in your unit and then Jump jet away again.
Even when fielding a riptide wing, I lost games by a fair margin against Gladius players even though I killed almost every unit in their army, simply because I could not take board control until turn 5.
This is what really got my attention in your post though. A Gladius Strike force gets up to 300-400 FREE POINTS worth of transports. SO you weren't able to beat him in a tactical objective game even though you, by your own admission, almost tabled him. So in other words, the only way to beat tau is to take a super broken formation that gives you 300-400pts of free transports.
In other words, SMs with Gladius can beat Tau, otherwise L2P? LMAO
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ushtarador wrote: Less durable in which sense? Because riptides certainly die sooner to flesh hounds, grav or bolters than Warhounds.
Seriously, if you play a post-necron codex, you will be able to handle at least 2 riptides in any game if you don't play like an idiot. If you think it's impossible, you just never put in the effort to actually come up with solutions.
And for those of us whose codex's came out BEFORE Necrons? Pretty sure my orks almost never get close enough to a Tau player to even scratch the paint job but sure whatever
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/11 17:06:46
I also play BA a lot, and it's absolutely possible. Most Tau list will struggle hard with Fragiosos in pods (intercepting riptides are NOT a counter to this). Using the SG formation with Dante works excellently even with intercept, unless your opponent uses a loaded scatter die. Strormraven with CC scouts will also be effective, unless the Tau prepares and takes tons of intercept on everything. Telepathy is very powerful against Tau with their usually mediocre LD.
And for those of us whose codex's came out BEFORE Necrons? Pretty sure my orks almost never get close enough to a Tau player to even scratch the paint job but sure whatever
Your codex will get rolled just as hard by any post-necron dex, so why not open a thread to discuss this issue? because THAT is the real problem, not the riptide (or any other arbitrary single unit from these codices). When you nerf the riptide you will have to nerf stormsurge, Optimized Stealth Cadre, Markerlights, Broadside, Crisis Suits... it doesn't end.
Concerning KDK, did you by chance forget that fleshhounds can scout 12"? They start the game already in the middle of the board, giving them 36"+D6 range to charge turn 2.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2016/10/11 17:13:50
BA don't get telepathy. That puts your BA street cred in serious doubt.
"Most Tau list will struggle hard with Fragiosos in pods (intercepting riptides are NOT a counter to this)"
That's what the intercepting broadsides are for.
"Using the SG formation with Dante works excellently even with intercept"
Ion accelerators? No, it doesn't. SG are a dumpster fire even with the new book.
There is no scenario where Tau should even get close to losing to BA. BA have too much crap that is simultaneously overcosted AND perfect targets for Tau weapon systems.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/11 17:25:21
As far as over stating Overwatch? yeah not really. So long as a riptide has some firewarriors or a drone squad nearby it will get boosted to at the very least BS3, but probably closer to BS4 and sometimes BS5. It gets to shoot the piss out of you, and then those firewarriors (probably one of the most under rated troops choices in the game) get to shoot you with their S5 guns at double tap range. Yeah your going to lose a lot of models. And the best part? if you lose enough of those front units your going to fail your charge and guess what? Mr Riptide is going to stroll away, blow more holes in your unit and then Jump jet away again.
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Overwatch is at bs1. IF they have hunter contingent, then they can have 3 or more units simultaneously combine their overwatch to bs2, which means markerlights shot at the same time (at bs2) cannot be used until a subsequent unit fires. IF they fired first, then they are snap shooting bs1 with their markerlights. With hunter contingent maximum range to participate in overwatch is 12" from the unit being charged... How is your riptide shooting as bs 5 in the overwatch? unless they bring the counter-fire support system, which sets overwatch to bs2 (set modifier, so never better) then its giving up EWO or Stimms for it..
Its disingenuous to say the tau player is bringing 45 markerlight sources to try and get to this magical bs5 overwatch all within 12" of the unit being charged.
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Martel732 wrote: BA don't get telepathy. That puts your BA street cred in serious doubt.
"Most Tau list will struggle hard with Fragiosos in pods (intercepting riptides are NOT a counter to this)"
That's what the intercepting broadsides are for.
"Using the SG formation with Dante works excellently even with intercept"
Ion accelerators? No, it doesn't. SG are a dumpster fire even with the new book.
There is no scenario where Tau should even get close to losing to BA. BA have too much crap that is simultaneously overcosted AND perfect targets for Tau weapon systems.
BA don't get telepathy? Yikes... good thing there is only 1 bad power in divination.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/11 17:26:58
As far as over stating Overwatch? yeah not really. So long as a riptide has some firewarriors or a drone squad nearby it will get boosted to at the very least BS3, but probably closer to BS4 and sometimes BS5. It gets to shoot the piss out of you, and then those firewarriors (probably one of the most under rated troops choices in the game) get to shoot you with their S5 guns at double tap range. Yeah your going to lose a lot of models. And the best part? if you lose enough of those front units your going to fail your charge and guess what? Mr Riptide is going to stroll away, blow more holes in your unit and then Jump jet away again.
[
Overwatch is at bs1. IF they have hunter contingent, then they can have 3 or more units simultaneously combine their overwatch to bs2, which means markerlights shot at the same time (at bs2) cannot be used until a subsequent unit fires. IF they fired first, then they are snap shooting bs1 with their markerlights. With hunter contingent maximum range to participate in overwatch is 12" from the unit being charged... How is your riptide shooting as bs 5 in the overwatch? unless they bring the counter-fire support system, which sets overwatch to bs2 (set modifier, so never better) then its giving up EWO or Stimms for it..
Its disingenuous to say the tau player is bringing 45 markerlight sources to try and get to this magical bs5 overwatch all within 12" of the unit being charged.
Well in the list I built that he was referring to, I had 14 markerlights I believe. So, on average thats 2 hits, on a good roll that can be as much as 4. The list I built also was a joke list where the player brings 4 Riptides in a bound list without using the formation.
So its easy to get a Riptide up to BS3, likely to get BS4 and possible to get BS5.
BA don't get telepathy. That puts your BA street cred in serious doubt.
"Most Tau list will struggle hard with Fragiosos in pods (intercepting riptides are NOT a counter to this)"
That's what the intercepting broadsides are for.
"Using the SG formation with Dante works excellently even with intercept"
Ion accelerators? No, it doesn't. SG are a dumpster fire even with the new book.
There is no scenario where Tau should even get close to losing to BA. BA have too much crap that is simultaneously overcosted AND perfect targets for Tau weapon systems.
Just try it sometime.. those 2 pie plates will only hit 1/3 of a time each, if you put dante in front or drop in cover you get a 4++, and 1/6 of a time he gets hot. You can't expect to get into CC with no losses either..
A Fragioso in 5+ cover requires 9 broadsides on average to die to glancing hits, that's already almost half his army then.
True BA specifically don't get telepathy, but there's a lot of other great psychic powers to abuse, especially in the new marine disciplines.
If you only play against competitive Tau lists with riptide wings and all the jazz it's different, but that's not what this thread is about I believe?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/11 17:29:31
BA don't get telepathy. That puts your BA street cred in serious doubt.
"Most Tau list will struggle hard with Fragiosos in pods (intercepting riptides are NOT a counter to this)"
That's what the intercepting broadsides are for.
"Using the SG formation with Dante works excellently even with intercept"
Ion accelerators? No, it doesn't. SG are a dumpster fire even with the new book.
There is no scenario where Tau should even get close to losing to BA. BA have too much crap that is simultaneously overcosted AND perfect targets for Tau weapon systems.
Just try it sometime.. those 2 pie plates will only hit 1/3 of a time each, if you put dante in front or drop in cover you get a 4++, and 1/6 of a time he gets hot. You can't expect to get into CC with no losses either..
A Fragioso in 5+ cover requires 9 broadsides on average to die to glancing hits, that's already almost half his army then.
True BA specifically don't get telepathy, but there's a lot of other great psychic powers to abuse, especially in the new marine disciplines.
Cover is a thing against Tau?
"You can't expect to get into CC"
Fixed that for you.
Telepathy has the only power that matters: invisibility. BA psykers might as well not exist without telepathy access. And I don't need to try SG to know that they are dumpster fires. They die miserably to space puppies, too, so there's no reason to ever use them.
The thread is about Riptides, but it's hard not to discuss the Riptide in context. T6 W5 2+/3++/5+++ should be very expensive given the current rules and equipment in the game. Give the Riptide 3+ armor and make the non-NOVA ion accelerator AP 3 and the price point would be about right.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/10/11 17:35:31
Well, if you only play against competitive Tau lists with riptide wing, 45 markerlight drones in drone nets and some complimentary stormsurges you should have said so.
'Normal' tau lists can definitely be overwhelmed using concentrated alpha strikes. Coordinate your reserves turn 2 (get reserve rerolls, it's possible), use stuff that can charge after DS and eliminate markerlight support in your shooting phase before you charge. Intercept is a very gimped shooting phase for the Tau due to no markerlight support, even if he puts it on every suit he brings. It even allows you to just charge the stuff that didn't intercept first, while the suits have to sit around doing nothing the next turn.
Or footslog your SG and tacticals up the field and die like you are supposed to vs Tau of course.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/10/11 17:39:11
Ushtarador wrote: Well, if you only play against competitive Tau lists with riptide wing, 45 markerlight drones in drone nets and some complimentary stormsurges you should have said so.
'Normal' tau lists can definitely be overwhelmed using concentrated alpha strikes. Coordinate your reserves turn 2 (get reserve rerolls, it's possible), use stuff that can charge after DS and eliminate markerlight support in your shooting phase before you charge.
Or footslog your SG and tacticals up the field and die like you are supposed to vs Tau of course.
" if you only play against competitive Tau lists with riptide wing, 45 markerlight drones in drone nets and some complimentary stormsurges you should have said so. "
There are other Tau lists?
I'm BA. Nothing footslogs. I don't even like drop pods because the guys are on foot after they drop. But at the end of the day, BA have precious little that can actually beat a Riptide in CC after wading through all the shooting. Being immortal has its advantages.
Let me put this in perspective: I don't even know what crisis suits do in 7th, because I never see them.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/10/11 17:39:44
but sure whatever
