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There are other Tau lists, just like some marines don't exclusively field TWC with 5 detachments and first turn tabling potential. If your gaming partners are into ultracheese only, that sucks of course, many people in my store luckily have a flexible attitude.

You don't have to kill the riptide immediately, just putting 5 guys into cc will keep it busy long enough for the cc specialists to come in and mop him up later.

Ushtarador wrote:
There are other Tau lists, just like some marines don't exclusively field TWC with 5 detachments and first turn tabling potential.

You don't have to kill the riptide immediately, just putting 5 guys into cc will keep it busy long enough for the cc specialists to come in and mop him up later.

You keep acting like I have enough squads left on the table to be able to afford putting 5 guys into CC with a Riptide just to tie it up. Maybe if marines were default WS 5, but the Riptide gets 1.5 AP2 hits per melee turn. That adds up fast with a marine list. I'm lucky to get a single crippled squad into CC.

The Riptide is simply too cheap for what it brings to the table.

" just like some marines don't exclusively field TWC with 5 detachments and first turn tabling potential"

You forgot the Wulfen. At least SW have to move to table me.

The problem with the riptide specifically is how effective it is at cc. IMO - it should only have 1 attack - this would make using it to tie up CC specialist units for the duration of the game risky - because with only 1 attack you will almost assuredly have to take a leadership test every turn against real assault units.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The problem with the riptide specifically is how effective it is at cc. IMO - it should only have 1 attack - this would make using it to tie up CC specialist units for the duration of the game risky - because with only 1 attack you will almost assuredly have to take a leadership test every turn against real assault units.

Or take away smash from the Riptide.

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The problem with the riptide specifically is how effective it is at cc. IMO - it should only have 1 attack - this would make using it to tie up CC specialist units for the duration of the game risky - because with only 1 attack you will almost assuredly have to take a leadership test every turn against real assault units.

Or take away smash from the Riptide.

More often than not I am using the 3 attacks over smash anyways. Unless I can ID something with str 10.

You mean no AP2? Yeah - that could work.

If we are talking about balance we really should stick to competitive formations/choices/lists or an environment.

Otherwise we get a massive mutilator thread again which was SO MUCH FUN.

As for formations and the riptide...
The double tap is huge. Riptides get 2-3 turns of firing before things hit melee, so this gives them 3-4 rounds of shooting. This is a 50%-33% increase in shooting, for a formation. Essentially its free unless you weren't taking tides.

EDIT, I don't mean melee with the Tides, that is more a turn 3-4 thing if it ever happens. I meant melee with the troops which can protect you from shooting.

One of the ways riptides die is their Nova shields fail or they can't jump out of the way. The re-roll stops this and effectively gives them +1-2 wounds per game, since that is how many they are likely to lose over the course of 6 turns (I believe it's closer to 1 than 2, but still. A big deal on a unit that is so hard to wound). The odds of killing one via shooting or catching it have just tanked as long as they remain close.

The +1 BS is nice but it's no big deal. This is due to the standard loadouts Tides get and the way this buff works in OW.

There is a reason tides are nearly always taken in the wing formation. It's a series of relatively strong buffs that make the unit that was already good/great, go to broken. To claim it doesn't matter and doesn't make them significantly better is a real stretch considering the firepower buff alone. Imagine turn 1-2 double tap? You could be decimating units before they even get to contribute consider the tides' weapons. It puts you way up on attrition and, best of all, does it incredibly early in the game.


And for the record, I agree with Martel. BA can't play into Tau. KDK can, though it's hard and they are at a disadvantage, but most older dexes fold against a competitive Tau force.

SemperMortis wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


As far as over stating Overwatch? yeah not really. So long as a riptide has some firewarriors or a drone squad nearby it will get boosted to at the very least BS3, but probably closer to BS4 and sometimes BS5. It gets to shoot the piss out of you, and then those firewarriors (probably one of the most under rated troops choices in the game) get to shoot you with their S5 guns at double tap range. Yeah your going to lose a lot of models. And the best part? if you lose enough of those front units your going to fail your charge and guess what? Mr Riptide is going to stroll away, blow more holes in your unit and then Jump jet away again.

[

Overwatch is at bs1. IF they have hunter contingent, then they can have 3 or more units simultaneously combine their overwatch to bs2, which means markerlights shot at the same time (at bs2) cannot be used until a subsequent unit fires. IF they fired first, then they are snap shooting bs1 with their markerlights. With hunter contingent maximum range to participate in overwatch is 12" from the unit being charged... How is your riptide shooting as bs 5 in the overwatch? unless they bring the counter-fire support system, which sets overwatch to bs2 (set modifier, so never better) then its giving up EWO or Stimms for it..

Its disingenuous to say the tau player is bringing 45 markerlight sources to try and get to this magical bs5 overwatch all within 12" of the unit being charged.

Well in the list I built that he was referring to, I had 14 markerlights I believe. So, on average thats 2 hits, on a good roll that can be as much as 4. The list I built also was a joke list where the player brings 4 Riptides in a bound list without using the formation.

So its easy to get a Riptide up to BS3, likely to get BS4 and possible to get BS5.

Right.. but you've now committed how many units to overwatch? this is the classic run units together and charge with the weaker one first to either not be overwatched, and possibly tie the unit up in melee so the strong unit can charge with no overawtch, or the weak unit dies, soaking up all the quality of firepower/overwatch, and now there isn't enough left to do damage. its sacrificing units, but that's nothing, speed bump kroot to slow down deathstars etc.

Well, unless my opponent was playing it wrong, you can just overwatch with the charged unit (say, a unit of Fire Warriors) but not Supporting Fire, then when the REAL unit charges in, use all the Supporting Fire.

Trasvi wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Did you just choose to not read the rest of this at all? People so far have PROVEN how hard it is to delete Riptides. The plethora of Plasma or Melta or Lascannon needed to remove this model is ridiculous.

The number of plasma/melta/lascannon shots needed to kill ANYTHING that isn't a marine on foot is a large number.
Moreover, trying to take on Tau in a shooting match is something that you SHOULD lose. Shooting is Tau's only strength: if they can't beat you at that then the entire army is pointless. Try to capitalize on Tau's weaknesses in movement/psychic/combat.

So what's the excuse for Tau outmatching IG so much?

After all, IG are in the same boat relying on shooting.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Did you just choose to not read the rest of this at all? People so far have PROVEN how hard it is to delete Riptides. The plethora of Plasma or Melta or Lascannon needed to remove this model is ridiculous.

The number of plasma/melta/lascannon shots needed to kill ANYTHING that isn't a marine on foot is a large number.
Moreover, trying to take on Tau in a shooting match is something that you SHOULD lose. Shooting is Tau's only strength: if they can't beat you at that then the entire army is pointless. Try to capitalize on Tau's weaknesses in movement/psychic/combat.

So what's the excuse for Tau outmatching IG so much?

After all, IG are in the same boat relying on shooting.

IG are still in 5ed codex/very first of 6th ed, multiple rounds of codex creep right on past them


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Well, unless my opponent was playing it wrong, you can just overwatch with the charged unit (say, a unit of Fire Warriors) but not Supporting Fire, then when the REAL unit charges in, use all the Supporting Fire.

but now they have to fire even less at you/maximum of 6" away from the unit being charged unless in hunter cadre to 12" which riptide wing is not a part of so doesn't not get that benefit.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:


No it makes sense. I have a great, old friend that is a smart, clever guy, and he loves Tau because of the robots and suits and philosophy and pseudojapanmecha. He would play them even if they were the most underpowered army (when we used to play DnD he was a Rogue player and people, I will never see a Rogue played like that, sadly. Not in 1000 years).

Also, outstanding painter.

That's all great, I love Tau too, and am painting some right now - nothing to do with how they play though.

Just, I think that he could be better challenged. When FW puts out another Riptide model, I am happy for him because he will have fun building and painting it, is such an artist. I am happy hearing that he will have another cool model but...I cannot help thinking that I would need divine intervention to face all the 5 of them together. Of course he is not an ass and can tune down lists when he plays with me but why should he do a job the designers were supposed to do? Same with every Tau rule.

None of that his fault - he can't be blamed for the design of Tau as a tabletop army. If what you said about Vetock's intentions is true, that's poor game design; it should never be acceptable to deliberately design an entire playstyle whereby your opponent is denied their playstyle's abilities and effectiveness. Denial is an interesting game mechanic, and one I like where it is appropriate. It is simply not appropriate to apply to most or all of a certain playstyle.

 pumaman1 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


As far as over stating Overwatch? yeah not really. So long as a riptide has some firewarriors or a drone squad nearby it will get boosted to at the very least BS3, but probably closer to BS4 and sometimes BS5. It gets to shoot the piss out of you, and then those firewarriors (probably one of the most under rated troops choices in the game) get to shoot you with their S5 guns at double tap range. Yeah your going to lose a lot of models. And the best part? if you lose enough of those front units your going to fail your charge and guess what? Mr Riptide is going to stroll away, blow more holes in your unit and then Jump jet away again.

[

Overwatch is at bs1. IF they have hunter contingent, then they can have 3 or more units simultaneously combine their overwatch to bs2, which means markerlights shot at the same time (at bs2) cannot be used until a subsequent unit fires. IF they fired first, then they are snap shooting bs1 with their markerlights. With hunter contingent maximum range to participate in overwatch is 12" from the unit being charged... How is your riptide shooting as bs 5 in the overwatch? unless they bring the counter-fire support system, which sets overwatch to bs2 (set modifier, so never better) then its giving up EWO or Stimms for it..

Its disingenuous to say the tau player is bringing 45 markerlight sources to try and get to this magical bs5 overwatch all within 12" of the unit being charged.

Well in the list I built that he was referring to, I had 14 markerlights I believe. So, on average thats 2 hits, on a good roll that can be as much as 4. The list I built also was a joke list where the player brings 4 Riptides in a bound list without using the formation.

So its easy to get a Riptide up to BS3, likely to get BS4 and possible to get BS5.

Right.. but you've now committed how many units to overwatch? this is the classic run units together and charge with the weaker one first to either not be overwatched, and possibly tie the unit up in melee so the strong unit can charge with no overawtch, or the weak unit dies, soaking up all the quality of firepower/overwatch, and now there isn't enough left to do damage. its sacrificing units, but that's nothing, speed bump kroot to slow down deathstars etc.

Well, its been my experience that against Tau, you generally don't get more then 1-2 units into CC because they are all dead before they get that close. Against 4 Riptides your going to lose whole squads each turn. 4 Pie plates at high strength low AP means LOTS of dead models. And unless your a special snowflake that doesn't have to worry about leadership, this quickly becomes a problem. IN his example he was fielding 20 khorne hounds, those are 2W models which get doubled out easily enough and with only a 5++ it happens a lot. On turn 1 4 riptides could easily devestate those 2 squads of hounds to the point where they are no longer effective. probably leaving 2-3 models alive in each squad. Keep in mind on the Tau players turn he is backing away from the real threats and utilizing common sense to keep his big robots away from danger. And since his big robots are also as fast as Skimmers its not hard to do. ON turn 2 the Firewarriors will probably take down the remaining hounds. (especially with ethereals nearby) That leaves all 4 riptides free to go feth up the D-Thirster or the Khorne Lord, both of which are fast but not fast enough to catch the Riptides outright. The lord probably dies on this turn and the D-thirster is either ignored or with lucky rolls gets a wound or two taken off because the Lord died. At most the Tau player will sacrifice one of his Riptides to the enemy to slow him down and give the Tau player a chance to move away and secure more territory. At the end of the day, Tau should win that battle most of the time, barring stupidity and bad rolls.

Tau weakness in the movement phase? How do they have a weakness with numerous 60" guns, interceptor, and lots and lots of jet pack units. The reason tau players don't move from their deployment zone is that they don't have to, not because they're super slow. They can outrange and outgun you before you even reach their lines to offer up your 'strength' in melee.

Psychic phase? I think its a lot easier to kill a psyker than a formation of 3-5 jump monstrous creatures with 2+/4++/5++. You can't even get close to spamming an amount that could survive enough to get close unless you play tzeentch demons. I don't mean to sound like I'm being a stick in the mud for the sake of it but librarius conclaves and the like aren't even close to as durable, yet are still a lot of points, and still not even that comparable to the riptide wing in terms of effectiveness.

edit: thinking about your scenario made me realize how much more durable the riptide is compared to a freakin' greater demon of the god of war. I think at that point even the most die hard tau player can realize that maaaaaaaybe things are a little off. Maybe Khorne needs some of that experimental alloy with stim injectors.

 Don Savik wrote:
Tau weakness in the movement phase? How do they have a weakness with numerous 60" guns, interceptor, and lots and lots of jet pack units. The reason tau players don't move from their deployment zone is that they don't have to, not because they're super slow. They can outrange and outgun you before you even reach their lines to offer up your 'strength' in melee.

Psychic phase? I think its a lot easier to kill a psyker than a formation of 3-5 jump monstrous creatures with 2+/4++/5++. You can't even get close to spamming an amount that could survive enough to get close unless you play tzeentch demons. I don't mean to sound like I'm being a stick in the mud for the sake of it but librarius conclaves and the like aren't even close to as durable, yet are still a lot of points, and still not even that comparable to the riptide wing in terms of effectiveness.

Stop it your making sense. You know that is against the rules

 General Annoyance wrote:


None of that his fault - he can't be blamed for the design of Tau as a tabletop army. If what you said about Vetock's intentions is true, that's poor game design; it should never be acceptable to deliberately design an entire playstyle whereby your opponent is denied their playstyle's abilities and effectiveness. Denial is an interesting game mechanic, and one I like where it is appropriate. It is simply not appropriate to apply to most or all of a certain playstyle.

Look, I am always a bit tongue-in-cheek with the GW designers, a bit like Red Letter Media's Plinkett with George Lucas (hence the "hack frauds" reference).

Probably GW overworks these creative people or just refuses to pay an editor, someone that reins those ideas that fall into "sounds great Jeremy but..." category and lets the many good ones flow.
Someone with a direction, a global vision. So no hard feelings for the good old Jeremy, especially not because a game of plastic puppets.

Said this, I think you said it all with the Blue comparison with MtG.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Did you just choose to not read the rest of this at all? People so far have PROVEN how hard it is to delete Riptides. The plethora of Plasma or Melta or Lascannon needed to remove this model is ridiculous.

The number of plasma/melta/lascannon shots needed to kill ANYTHING that isn't a marine on foot is a large number.
Moreover, trying to take on Tau in a shooting match is something that you SHOULD lose. Shooting is Tau's only strength: if they can't beat you at that then the entire army is pointless. Try to capitalize on Tau's weaknesses in movement/psychic/combat.

So what's the excuse for Tau outmatching IG so much?

After all, IG are in the same boat relying on shooting.

Actually, I want to hear this too. Please tell myself and others how we are supposed to compete against a codex that does everything we do, but better.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Did you just choose to not read the rest of this at all? People so far have PROVEN how hard it is to delete Riptides. The plethora of Plasma or Melta or Lascannon needed to remove this model is ridiculous.

The number of plasma/melta/lascannon shots needed to kill ANYTHING that isn't a marine on foot is a large number.
Moreover, trying to take on Tau in a shooting match is something that you SHOULD lose. Shooting is Tau's only strength: if they can't beat you at that then the entire army is pointless. Try to capitalize on Tau's weaknesses in movement/psychic/combat.

So what's the excuse for Tau outmatching IG so much?

After all, IG are in the same boat relying on shooting.

Actually, I want to hear this too. Please tell myself and others how we are supposed to compete against a codex that does everything we do, but better.

I'll answer this.

Bodies, AV14, artillery formations that ignore cover, FW, titans, TONS of allies, and meelee are guard's answers.
A list with an Armoured battlegroup, Emperor's Wrath Artillery battery, and blobs of guardsman combined can remove literally every threat Tau has pretty reliably. In short, Tau DOESN'T do everything IG does better. It shoots better, has some better formations, and moves better. That's really about it. Play your guard smart, and you won't get utterly stomped.

This is not to say that Tau are not a more powerful codex overall, but IG has plenty of answers to most things in the game outside of certain deathstars.

From a gameplay perspective, the Tau should have greater quality of shots and, making use of skimmer transports and jetpacks, be more mobile than the guard.

IG should make up for this by having more bodies, more heavy tanks and artillery, all of which together should put out more shots than the Tau but of lower quality (S3 Lasguns vs S5 Pulse Rifles, S8 Leman Russ shots vs S10 Railgun etc.).

Unfortunately GW can't write rules for gak so we instead get Tau with rules and models which encourage turtling up and just putting a lot of mid to mid-high strength shots downrange.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
From a gameplay perspective, the Tau should have greater quality of shots and, making use of skimmer transports and jetpacks, be more mobile than the guard.

IG should make up for this by having more bodies, more heavy tanks and artillery, all of which together should put out more shots than the Tau but of lower quality (S3 Lasguns vs S5 Pulse Rifles, S8 Leman Russ shots vs S10 Railgun etc.).

Unfortunately GW can't write rules for gak so we instead get Tau with rules and models which encourage turtling up and just putting a lot of mid to mid-high strength shots downrange.

nobody brings railgun hammerheads, because it's a 1 shot weapon, and ROF is king. It's not even armorbane or anything special. If you see one, its probably running ion-head, or skyray.

Riptides cannot hurt front armor 14 with the standard weapon, glance on overcharge, maybe pen with nova charge (then no 3++), but that's ap2. So it can explode.. but its more likely to scatter than hit. and even with ordinance 2/3 chance of doing nothing at all.

other weapons in the arsenal are also 1 shot, or rely on deepstrike, which 1-150 point blob of conscripts can stop with mishap, and absorb many wounds, and theoretically provide cover with intervening models, YMMV due to terrain and 25% obscured. pop a priest in the blob, and fearless blob is fearless.

 chrispy1991 wrote:

I'll answer this.

Bodies, AV14, artillery formations that ignore cover, FW, titans, TONS of allies, and meelee are guard's answers.
A list with an Armoured battlegroup, Emperor's Wrath Artillery battery, and blobs of guardsman combined can remove literally every threat Tau has pretty reliably. In short, Tau DOESN'T do everything IG does better.

You do weight of fire better, you do cover ignoring shots better than us thanks to Markerlights, etc.

It shoots better, has some better formations, and moves better. That's really about it. Play your guard smart, and you won't get utterly stomped.

By that same vein, play your Tau smart and there isn't a thing Guard can do to touch you.

I'm not going to tell you what is wrong with you whining about the Emperor's Wrath Artillery battery or talking about Allies and FW Titans, just that it shows how totally inept you are as a Tau player it seems.

This is not to say that Tau are not a more powerful codex overall, but IG has plenty of answers to most things in the game outside of certain deathstars.

Such as...?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 chrispy1991 wrote:

I'll answer this.

Bodies, AV14, artillery formations that ignore cover, FW, titans, TONS of allies, and meelee are guard's answers.
A list with an Armoured battlegroup, Emperor's Wrath Artillery battery, and blobs of guardsman combined can remove literally every threat Tau has pretty reliably. In short, Tau DOESN'T do everything IG does better.

You do weight of fire better, you do cover ignoring shots better than us thanks to Markerlights, etc.

It shoots better, has some better formations, and moves better. That's really about it. Play your guard smart, and you won't get utterly stomped.

By that same vein, play your Tau smart and there isn't a thing Guard can do to touch you.

I'm not going to tell you what is wrong with you whining about the Emperor's Wrath Artillery battery or talking about Allies and FW Titans, just that it shows how totally inept you are as a Tau player it seems.

This is not to say that Tau are not a more powerful codex overall, but IG has plenty of answers to most things in the game outside of certain deathstars.

Such as...?

Being personally insulting i see.
Chrispy doesn't play tau. He is exclusively guard. sooo yeah.

 pumaman1 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 chrispy1991 wrote:

I'll answer this.

Bodies, AV14, artillery formations that ignore cover, FW, titans, TONS of allies, and meelee are guard's answers.
A list with an Armoured battlegroup, Emperor's Wrath Artillery battery, and blobs of guardsman combined can remove literally every threat Tau has pretty reliably. In short, Tau DOESN'T do everything IG does better.

You do weight of fire better, you do cover ignoring shots better than us thanks to Markerlights, etc.

It shoots better, has some better formations, and moves better. That's really about it. Play your guard smart, and you won't get utterly stomped.

By that same vein, play your Tau smart and there isn't a thing Guard can do to touch you.

I'm not going to tell you what is wrong with you whining about the Emperor's Wrath Artillery battery or talking about Allies and FW Titans, just that it shows how totally inept you are as a Tau player it seems.

This is not to say that Tau are not a more powerful codex overall, but IG has plenty of answers to most things in the game outside of certain deathstars.

Such as...?

Being personally insulting i see.

Condescending statements such as what he made from the start get condescending replies. Talking about allies and FW Titans as something that "Guard can do" is useless. Not everyone has FW Titans or wants to run Allied lists to make their army competitive.

Chrispy doesn't play tau. He is exclusively guard. sooo yeah.

Then he should know that everything he posted is nonsense. The EWAB is only as powerful as the items taken within it, and the minute the CCS is off the field the formation loses its benefit(the ability to receive Orders from that CCS) is the minute it loses its usefulness.

The same thing goes for the Armored Company; the minute that Command Tank is taken out is the minute it loses its effectiveness.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 chrispy1991 wrote:

I'll answer this.

Bodies, AV14, artillery formations that ignore cover, FW, titans, TONS of allies, and meelee are guard's answers.
A list with an Armoured battlegroup, Emperor's Wrath Artillery battery, and blobs of guardsman combined can remove literally every threat Tau has pretty reliably. In short, Tau DOESN'T do everything IG does better.

You do weight of fire better, you do cover ignoring shots better than us thanks to Markerlights, etc.

It shoots better, has some better formations, and moves better. That's really about it. Play your guard smart, and you won't get utterly stomped.

By that same vein, play your Tau smart and there isn't a thing Guard can do to touch you.

I'm not going to tell you what is wrong with you whining about the Emperor's Wrath Artillery battery or talking about Allies and FW Titans, just that it shows how totally inept you are as a Tau player it seems.

This is not to say that Tau are not a more powerful codex overall, but IG has plenty of answers to most things in the game outside of certain deathstars.

Such as...?

Being personally insulting i see.

Condescending statements such as what he made from the start get condescending replies. Talking about allies and FW Titans as something that "Guard can do" is useless. Not everyone has FW Titans or wants to run Allied lists to make their army competitive.

Chrispy doesn't play tau. He is exclusively guard. sooo yeah.

Then he should know that everything he posted is nonsense. The EWAB is only as powerful as the items taken within it, and the minute the CCS is off the field the formation loses its benefit(the ability to receive Orders from that CCS) is the minute it loses its usefulness.

The same thing goes for the Armored Company; the minute that Command Tank is taken out is the minute it loses its effectiveness.

You really think that was condescending? That wasn't condescending, that was me telling you to quit whining about how Tau supposedly outdo guard in is supposed only strength, despite that guard's strength is in its combined arms approach, not just shootiness.
Now I'm being condescending, because now I'm going to tell you that you're beneath trying to argue with because no matter what I say or what formations or tactics I try to bring up, you will never agree because you're fixated on nothing buts Tau's greater overall codex power. Good day and goodbye lesser player. I've put my two cents into this thread and don't really care anymore whether you agree with it.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
From a gameplay perspective, the Tau should have greater quality of shots and, making use of skimmer transports and jetpacks, be more mobile than the guard.

IG should make up for this by having more bodies, more heavy tanks and artillery, all of which together should put out more shots than the Tau but of lower quality (S3 Lasguns vs S5 Pulse Rifles, S8 Leman Russ shots vs S10 Railgun etc.).

Unfortunately GW can't write rules for gak so we instead get Tau with rules and models which encourage turtling up and just putting a lot of mid to mid-high strength shots downrange.

This is how the relationship between Tau and Guard used to work, back in the days of 4th edition and 5th edition. Tau had superior mobility and higher quality units that could focus fire better, but guard had superior numbers and more raw firepower. It was IG that could put more shots down at long range and that had the really nasty large blast templates (it used to be the best large blast Tau had was str 6, ap 4). This seemed to be a really good contrast between the two armies. But once Tau got the 6th edition codex they basically became Imperial Guard 2.0, with a large number of things that could throw large blast templates across the board and the ability to put out massive torrents of mid strength shots. There are still some elements remaining for the old, surgical move and scoot style of play such as the Crisis Suits, but a lot of the army now seems to be designed to just pummel the enemy from across the board.

 chrispy1991 wrote:


I'll answer this.

Go on then, we are all waiting

Bodies,

Wait what? When Guard play against Tau, Guard bodies get removed faster than panties in hentai.

AV14,

AV14? You do know that JSJ Fusion blaster crisis suits and Railgun Broadsides are a thing?

artillery

This is a joke, right? Artillery needs to be hidden from LOS to survive beyond turn 1 against Tau, and if it is hidden it suffers from a massive minimal range.

formations that ignore cover,

We have formations that ignore cover? News to me. Now, good luck getting within range.

FW,

Ahh yes, the age old "FW is better" fallacy. The FW IG stuff has not been properly updated since earl/mid 5th and is, barring one or two units which are no good against tau anyway, largely crap.

titans,

Ahahahahaha, very funny. Wait, you where serious? Does this not say something to you? And besides, how many players can actually afford to lose a kidney and half their liver to purchase a lump of resin?

TONS of allies,

Well, so THAT is the answer, to face a pure Tau list the Guard player should discard his Guard and bring a different army instead. How exactly is this the answer?

and meelee

Please describe exactly how one gets there without losing ones entire army to 3+ turns worth of shooting?

are guard's answers.

No they are not. Of your eight "answers" four are bad at the best of times and utterly useless against Tau, one is an obscenely expensive unit that the tau player will most likely refuse to play against, one is a formation that does not exist, one is utterly impossible to perform owing to a lack of delivery and one is basically saying "get rid of your Guard and bring a better army".
None of these are answers.

A list with an Armoured battlegroup,

Will die to Railsides, skirmishing JSJ Fusion Blaster crisis suits and Stormsurges (do not forget that all damage from the 'D' table spills over across the squadron).

Emperor's Wrath Artillery battery,

Requires LoS blocking terrain just to survive, and if hidden as thus will be unable to shoot over half the standard board.

and blobs of guardsman

Who will vanish faster than a snowman in Egypt to obscene levels of tau shooting.

can remove literally every threat Tau has pretty reliably.

As proven above, no, none of this can even touch tau. Unless you are bringing about twice the points level of course.

In short, Tau DOESN'T do everything IG does better.

Apart from volume of shooting, quality of shooting, tanky units, mobility, Close Combat avoidance, Ignores Cover, overwatch, DS/Outflank denial, etc....

It shoots better, has some better formations, and moves better.

So in other words, everything.

That's really about it.

"Its okay guys, Tau are just IG V2.0, there is nothing to worry about. I know that they do everything you do etter but you can beat them, provided you ditch your army for a better one and get a second mortgage to buy some massive units you will almost never be able to use".

Play your guard smart, and you won't get utterly stomped.

Provided the Tau player is a complete moron.

This is not to say that Tau are not a more powerful codex overall, but IG has plenty of answers to most things in the game outside of certain deathstars.

"IG have plenty of answers to most things"
And there you just showed the sheer level and depth of your ignorance.

It's hard to deepstrike fusion suits close to a vehicle with 50 spaced conscripts around it. Fusion suits don't kill bodies quickly.

You don't care about your conscripts lives, they are there to die over 3+ turns.

Rail-sides? really, over missile-sides? If you are going to have an argument, you can constantly change the circumstances within the argument. becuase also, rail-sides cannot kill volume of bodies

Melee happens if you have objectives in the middle of the board/on your side, and you are playing maelstrom, so it happens.

It's an order to ignore cover, that the formation allows you to order to your artillery.

Calm down, he brought you played strategies that work, not just theory crafting.

 master of ordinance wrote:

AV14,

AV14? You do know that JSJ Fusion blaster crisis suits and Railgun Broadsides are a thing?

A list with an Armoured battlegroup,

Will die to Railsides, skirmishing JSJ Fusion Blaster crisis suits and Stormsurges (do not forget that all damage from the 'D' table spills over across the squadron).

Ok, you've got two things wrong here. One, Broadsides with S10 railguns are not a thing anymore. Not in the 7e codex, and not in the 6e codex either. Broadside rail weapons are S8 AP1, no armourbane, lance, melta, haywire, D, etc. They're nearly useless against AV14.

Second, the results from single D hits do not spill over across a squadron - all the damage from a single D hit is resolved against a model, not a unit. A D blast can score multiple hits, but where is *that* coming from?

Tau mostly do IG's schtick better, that I'll agree with, but if you routinely play against Tau players who are using their Broadsides with S10 railguns and D blasts, then they're doing it wrong. (I'd go so far as to say cheating.)

 pumaman1 wrote:
It's hard to deepstrike fusion suits close to a vehicle with 50 spaced conscripts around it. Fusion suits don't kill bodies quickly.

Cue the world's smallest violin.
So what if it's hard for you to deep strike? The Guard player can't do anything about your Deep Strike unless they've brought in Inquisitorial elements or got lucky with Psykers and got the ability to Intercept via that way.

You don't care about your conscripts lives, they are there to die over 3+ turns.

You must roll pretty poorly or your Guard opponents have hot dice; because I have never had Conscripts last 3+ turns against Tau.

Rail-sides? really, over missile-sides? If you are going to have an argument, you can constantly change the circumstances within the argument. becuase also, rail-sides cannot kill volume of bodies

Railsides can kill tanks. Admittedly they're far worse than HYMPs are; but that's because vehicles are gimped thanks to glancing nonsense.

And really, you just changed the circumstances within the argument there as his point about railsides was responding to the idea that AV14 is some kind of amazing thing.

Melee happens if you have objectives in the middle of the board/on your side, and you are playing maelstrom, so it happens.

Sure melee happens...but so do things that can actually withstand S3 AP - hits from Guardsmen.

It's an order to ignore cover, that the formation allows you to order to your artillery.

Which becomes moot if the other person kills the lone Company Command Squad that is part of this formation.

Calm down, he brought you played strategies that work, not just theory crafting.

Except he didn't actually bring played strategies that work against Tau.

Face facts here:
Tau and IG are not on the same level. Tau do everything the IG are supposed to do better, without the hamstringing effect of Orders that the IG have. Markerlights are the closest equivalent to Orders that the Tau have, but they are so far beyond the scope of what Orders actually are that it is downright offensive that Tau players have the gall to complain about ONE formation that lets the Basilisk, Manticore, or Hydra(because those are the only ones that actually benefit from "Fire on my Target!" and the Ignores Cover it provides) have a bit of a heyday again--and even then, taking Hydras is a dummy prize because who would take Hydras at this point in the game?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jade_angel wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

AV14,

AV14? You do know that JSJ Fusion blaster crisis suits and Railgun Broadsides are a thing?

A list with an Armoured battlegroup,

Will die to Railsides, skirmishing JSJ Fusion Blaster crisis suits and Stormsurges (do not forget that all damage from the 'D' table spills over across the squadron).

Ok, you've got two things wrong here. One, Broadsides with S10 railguns are not a thing anymore. Not in the 7e codex, and not in the 6e codex either. Broadside rail weapons are S8 AP1, no armourbane, lance, melta, haywire, D, etc. They're nearly useless against AV14.

Second, the results from single D hits do not spill over across a squadron - all the damage from a single D hit is resolved against a model, not a unit. A D blast can score multiple hits, but where is *that* coming from?

Tau mostly do IG's schtick better, that I'll agree with, but if you routinely play against Tau players who are using their Broadsides with S10 railguns and D blasts, then they're doing it wrong. (I'd go so far as to say cheating.)

I think you're clumping together two concepts...

Stormsurges have a Strength D in the form of the Pulse Blastcannon. Yes, it's at ranges of 10" but it is still a Strength D.

It's not blast or spreading, as mentioned, but it is still not the same as Broadsides with S10 Railguns.

pumaman1 wrote:It's hard to deepstrike fusion suits close to a vehicle with 50 spaced conscripts around it. Fusion suits don't kill bodies quickly.

Cry me a river. At least you can DEEPSTRIKE, let alone do it without having half the enemy army shoot at you out of turn.

You don't care about your conscripts lives, they are there to die over 3+ turns.

I do not run conscripts on account of them needing platoons. Veterans a re a far better choice.

Rail-sides? really, over missile-sides? If you are going to have an argument, you can constantly change the circumstances within the argument. becuase also, rail-sides cannot kill volume of bodies

You did say AV14. The rest of the army does the killing bodies bit.

Melee happens if you have objectives in the middle of the board/on your side, and you are playing maelstrom, so it happens.

Not really. The Tau player shoots things, drives up in his suits/skimmers/rapetide wing and then shoots anything within the vicinity. Anything that survives is then gunned down by half that Tau players army in overwatch.

It's an order to ignore cover, that the formation allows you to order to your artillery.

Ah yes, that artillery that is so fragile it will have to choose between only engaging the Tau players rear lines or getting shot to gak on turn 1. Also, that order requires a rather dubious LD test. How about we make Markerlights only available as 2 per HQ choice with a LD7 check required to use them each turn?
No, I thought not.

Calm down, he brought you played strategies that work, not just theory crafting.

Except they do not work. At all. Ever. Unless you have 1.5 to 2.5 thousand pounds to drop on a Titan.

Kanluwen wrote:

Stormsurges have a Strength D in the form of the Pulse Blastcannon. Yes, it's at ranges of 10" but it is still a Strength D.
.

I am on about those big missiles. If you are hit with a markerlight they count as S 'D' when shooting at you. Stupid, I know, but it is Tau.
Oh, and thanks for backing me up

 Kanluwen wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
It's hard to deepstrike fusion suits close to a vehicle with 50 spaced conscripts around it. Fusion suits don't kill bodies quickly.

Cue the world's smallest violin.
So what if it's hard for you to deep strike? The Guard player can't do anything about your Deep Strike unless they've brought in Inquisitorial elements or got lucky with Psykers and got the ability to Intercept via that way.

You don't care about your conscripts lives, they are there to die over 3+ turns.

You must roll pretty poorly or your Guard opponents have hot dice; because I have never had Conscripts last 3+ turns against Tau.

Rail-sides? really, over missile-sides? If you are going to have an argument, you can constantly change the circumstances within the argument. becuase also, rail-sides cannot kill volume of bodies

Railsides can kill tanks. Admittedly they're far worse than HYMPs are; but that's because vehicles are gimped thanks to glancing nonsense.

And really, you just changed the circumstances within the argument there as his point about railsides was responding to the idea that AV14 is some kind of amazing thing.

Melee happens if you have objectives in the middle of the board/on your side, and you are playing maelstrom, so it happens.

Sure melee happens...but so do things that can actually withstand S3 AP - hits from Guardsmen.

It's an order to ignore cover, that the formation allows you to order to your artillery.

Which becomes moot if the other person kills the lone Company Command Squad that is part of this formation.

Calm down, he brought you played strategies that work, not just theory crafting.

Except he didn't actually bring played strategies that work against Tau.

Face facts here:
Tau and IG are not on the same level. Tau do everything the IG are supposed to do better, without the hamstringing effect of Orders that the IG have. Markerlights are the closest equivalent to Orders that the Tau have, but they are so far beyond the scope of what Orders actually are that it is downright offensive that Tau players have the gall to complain about ONE formation that lets the Basilisk, Manticore, or Hydra(because those are the only ones that actually benefit from "Fire on my Target!" and the Ignores Cover it provides) have a bit of a heyday again--and even then, taking Hydras is a dummy prize because who would take Hydras at this point in the game?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jade_angel wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

AV14,

AV14? You do know that JSJ Fusion blaster crisis suits and Railgun Broadsides are a thing?

A list with an Armoured battlegroup,

Will die to Railsides, skirmishing JSJ Fusion Blaster crisis suits and Stormsurges (do not forget that all damage from the 'D' table spills over across the squadron).

Ok, you've got two things wrong here. One, Broadsides with S10 railguns are not a thing anymore. Not in the 7e codex, and not in the 6e codex either. Broadside rail weapons are S8 AP1, no armourbane, lance, melta, haywire, D, etc. They're nearly useless against AV14.

Second, the results from single D hits do not spill over across a squadron - all the damage from a single D hit is resolved against a model, not a unit. A D blast can score multiple hits, but where is *that* coming from?

Tau mostly do IG's schtick better, that I'll agree with, but if you routinely play against Tau players who are using their Broadsides with S10 railguns and D blasts, then they're doing it wrong. (I'd go so far as to say cheating.)

I think you're clumping together two concepts...

Stormsurges have a Strength D in the form of the Pulse Blastcannon. Yes, it's at ranges of 10" but it is still a Strength D.

It's not blast or spreading, as mentioned, but it is still not the same as Broadsides with S10 Railguns.

No violin was meant to be played, it is a strategy to negate your fear of fusion suits, in order to not peril, i have to deep strike far away. I am not whining, its a good stategy.

If you never had 50 person fearless squad survive 3+ turns, i don't believe you. it would take 180 firewarrior shots to attempt to kill them in 1 turn, in rapid fire range (ie chargebale) thats 7.5 max squads of firewarriors.

heavy rail rifles can only glance armor 14 in a 1/6 chance on the to wound roll, so the 3 shots fire, 2 shots hit after TL, you have a 1/3 chance of losing 1 hp with no other ill effects. Further, the argument was bodies are no way to insulate/defend against wounds, and missile-sides deal far more wounds to bodies/troops than rail-sides. Also, if they move they snap-shoot, so you can neuter them pretty easily. and 1 las cannon ID's them at t4. something you can but on most vehicles.

and guardsmen can withstand s3 a- hits from WS2 firewarriors, your point about melee? in fact the only non WS2 units in the codex, are HQ, vespid (which are a never take) and kroot, who are all of ws3 scary.

Protect your company command squad? how hard is it to hide them out of LOS, making them impossible to assign wounds to per BRB besides SMS.. which is onyl on vehicles, riptide, and broadsides, which are across the board as your complaint, so out of range.