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 master of ordinance wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

There are dozens of models with S8 AP3 blasts - which, given the dearth of Sv2 squads seen on the table, is functionally the same as AP2 in most situations. A Leman Russ Battle Tank doesn't have ridiculous firepower.

A Leman Russ is also far slower and no where near as durable as a Riptide, is vulnerable to CC, has less 'wounds', will suffer major penalties if the enemy rolls above the needed 'too wound' number, has no saves of any kind unless you have invested in camo gear (15 points for a 6+ cover save, woo) and/or hidden it within cover. It also gets even easier to 'wound' if you flank it.

How on earth can you possibly compare a weak, overpriced, unit like the Leman Russ to a monster like the Riptide?

I agree than comparing a Leman Russ to most anything is a bad comparison. Battle cannon being ordinance, and no way to negate snap firing is a horrible rule set (removing lumbering behemoth being 1 of the primary factors), but that said, few people bring stock LRBT, because it is functionally 1 gun for 180 points, and is vulnerable if it ever moves it's rear off the board edge. The are more likely to bring Paskishers (rending and preferred enemy) or plasmacutioners (though statistically would kill themselves off with gets hot every game) because they are "less" points (clearly pask is more, but orders and exponentially more potent depending on variant) and more viable thanks to scoot-and-shoot with all weapons.

Akiasura wrote:
Agreed. As is, I have a lot of games where I remove 40 models by turn two using 3 tides in a wing, and that's on the low side (That's an average of 4.2-3 models per pie plate, pretty doable).

I've had games where its closer to 60 due to good scat rolls if the enemy doesn't take enough invul saves. Against horde armies it's a lot higher. Removing 1/3-1/2 of a greenskin force by turn two is absurd, and that's not including the other units.

If you're facing against a Tau army with footslogging Orks, they're all going to die before combat no matter what the Tau player uses. I'm sorry, but footslogging infantry in general isn't going to win games.

Yes, the riptide wing is an abomination. It takes a unit that was already good, imposes a 'restriction' that any half-decent Tau player will have already fulfilled, and gives it extremely powerful special rules. The formation should not exist.

Martel, are you trying to say that Ordnance is a good rule to have? It's a huge impediment for relatively little benefit.

Usually for "balance" a unit needs some "rock/paper/scissors" element to it.
Vehicles without strong back armour die like dogs to an infantry assault with krack grenades.
Dreadnaughts die to melta weapons due to having armor.
High toughness units die to poison.

This unit is WAY too good at all things offensively and defensively for little points.
Cost to capability ratio a player would be foolish not to want to play this unit.
So this still falls on GW not creating the right balance.
We seem to have the ongoing issue with platforms that can do "relentless" or better and able to fire heavy weapons on the move.

I could see by adding a certain loadout positive and negative aspects can be applied.

Artillery piece needs to stabilize prior to shooting (ordinance weapons hold back tanks a fair bit in this regard) and less defensive capabilities due to added strain to powerplant would be good.
Moderate firepower on the move, better when holding still.

For a linebreaker role I would see more shooting (at closer range) and less blast template available with a better movement and defense.
I would look at this like a cavalry "shock and awe" type of unit meant to chew through infantry.

Trasvi wrote:


Martel, are you trying to say that Ordnance is a good rule to have? It's a huge impediment for relatively little benefit.

That depends on the model which has it. I would very much like Ordnance on the Hammerhead Railguns solid shot as the roll 2D6 and choose highest improves the chance of actually penning armour, which is what the railgun needs help with, without making it basically guaranteed which is what armourbane would do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talizvar wrote:
Artillery piece needs to stabilize prior to shooting (ordinance weapons hold back tanks a fair bit in this regard)

Ordnance doesn't hold tanks back that much at all, actually. Vehicles can move and still fire ordnance weapons as long as they can fire it without it being a snap shot as the Ordnance blanket "no firing after moving" rule only affects non-vehicle models. Most ordnance weapons are blast weapons and so couldn't fire snap shots anyway. Vehicles are also free to fire other weapons after firing an Ordnance weapon.

Trasvi wrote:
Its a good weapon to be sure. But it's not ridiculous.
There are models with S10 AP1 large blasts.
There are dozens of models with S8 AP3 blasts - which, given the dearth of Sv2 squads seen on the table, is functionally the same as AP2 in most situations. A Leman Russ Battle Tank doesn't have ridiculous firepower.
There are models like the Forgefiend or that Leman Russ variant that can put out 3-5 small blast AP2s.

Broadsides or Scatterbikes put out ridiculous firepower. The Riptide has firepower matched by models 100pts less.

So when faced with an argument that shows the Riptide is better across the board you choose to focus on a single point where the Riptide is equal to or slightly worse then another tau unit. I love the logic my friend, but seriously stop please.

The only models I can think of that are common with a S10 AP1 Large blast are Vindicators and they have a range of 24inches. They are a vehicle so they are slow and easy to destroy.

Compare a riptide TO ALMOST ANY OTHER UNIT! and it will be better point for point by a large margin.

Riptides benefit from all the rules of a MC without any of the drawbacks (as few as there are) and benefit from all the tools and gear that a vehicle can take, but without that pesky Hull Point problem, nor the vehicle damage chart nor the inability to get a cover save with most vehicles.

Lets do a little test, I'll take 10 Hammerheads and you can take a riptide wing. Who wins? 10 Hammerheads put out 10 Large blast templates, lets just say all 10 hit, none Overcharged because it wouldn't benefit them that much. 10 at S7 Vs T6 = 6-7 wounds = 1 failed 2+ armor save, with a 1/3rd change to beat that because of 5+ FNP. FIRE THE MISSILES! 40 TL Ignores cover ignores LOS SMS shots. I think because they are drone controlled they are BS2? I don't play tau so I don't know, So if it BS2 then its about 13 his the first batch and 9 the 2nd so 22 hits. At S5 thats about 7 wounds, Against a 2+ Save and 5+ FNP thats again about 1 wound, (possibly zero) So in 1 full round of shooting the Hammerheads have done 2 wounds. YAY Hammerheads.

Riptides turn they do their wonderful little feth off Nova Charge and 1 fails, lets say it wounds and the riptide fails his own save because he is an idiot, so 3 wounds on the Tides. Those 2 nova templates will strike 1-2 hammerheads each so lets say 3 total hits at S9 AP2. Against AV13 So 50/50 to glance/pen. So lets go with 1 Pen total. Completely take away the chance of a glance. But because those Hammerheads didn't want to get blown up all 3 jinked. Successfully removing 3 units from realistically hurting the tides next turn. lets say the jink failed and it goes through and furthers stuns the crew and removes 1 HP from the Hammerhead. FIRE ZE MISSILES 12 TL BS4 Missiles that hit the rear armor because reasons equals about 10-11 hits. At S5 against AV 10 = 2-3 HPs stripped So BOOM one Enemy vehicle is destroyed.

So for the loss of ZERO dakka the Riptides have removed 1 enemy vehicle, forced 2-3 to Jink and have suffered 3 wounds. So a full 1/3rd of the enemy is either dead or useless the next turn......And from their it only gets worse because as the Riptides close the distance they will eventually get into CC Believe it or not where they get another phase of free butt kicking on the hammerheads.

Point being that in vacuum (dangerous I know) 3 riptides, not even in a wing formation, can ROFLSTOMP 10 Hammerheads. 10 hammerheads cost 1,250pts 3 Riptides cost 660pts (with stim injectors)

So what I am trying to say is that if you want the Riptide to be tanky REDUCE ITS BLOODY WEAPONS, if you want the riptide to be shooty, REDUCE ITS BLOODY ENDURANCE.
At the moment the riptides (which you love pointing out are 100pts more expensive then a hammerhead) are more then 3times as effective as Hammerheads.

This will be true against almost EVERY vehicle in the game including some of the smaller Titans. Hell I would get a riptide over a Stompa in a fight.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Trasvi wrote:


Martel, are you trying to say that Ordnance is a good rule to have? It's a huge impediment for relatively little benefit.

That depends on the model which has it. I would very much like Ordnance on the Hammerhead Railguns solid shot as the roll 2D6 and choose highest improves the chance of actually penning armour, which is what the railgun needs help with, without making it basically guaranteed which is what armourbane would do.

In some cases its ok. For the Riptide, who needs to Nova charge and then Gets Hot to fire the ordnance weapon... it never gets used, for good reason.

Trasvi wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Trasvi wrote:


Martel, are you trying to say that Ordnance is a good rule to have? It's a huge impediment for relatively little benefit.

That depends on the model which has it. I would very much like Ordnance on the Hammerhead Railguns solid shot as the roll 2D6 and choose highest improves the chance of actually penning armour, which is what the railgun needs help with, without making it basically guaranteed which is what armourbane would do.

In some cases its ok. For the Riptide, who needs to Nova charge and then Gets Hot to fire the ordnance weapon... it never gets used, for good reason.

Right, but the main reason is that you can get basically the same thing without having to NOVA charge, which means you are free to go for the 3++ or 4D6 thrust. Which is a problem.

Hence why you should remove the non-NOVA large blast profile from the Ion Accelerator.

I mean, the HBC needs to nova charge and then suffers from Gets Hot in order to be powerful (and HBCtides get way less flak because of such restrictions), so why shouldn't the Ion Accelerator? Simply getting rid of the non-NOVA large blast profile fixes, or at least reduces, a lot of the problems with the riptide.

Constant 3++? Not if it wants to drop a large blast.
Intercept with a large blast? Not if it wants a 3++ on the opponents turn.
JSJ with a large blast? Nope, only shoot-jump, so it had to get into position the turn before, possibly leaving it more vulnerable and allowing more chances for the opponent to get their models out of LOS or into cover.

SemperMortis wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
Its a good weapon to be sure. But it's not ridiculous.
There are models with S10 AP1 large blasts.
There are dozens of models with S8 AP3 blasts - which, given the dearth of Sv2 squads seen on the table, is functionally the same as AP2 in most situations. A Leman Russ Battle Tank doesn't have ridiculous firepower.
There are models like the Forgefiend or that Leman Russ variant that can put out 3-5 small blast AP2s.

Broadsides or Scatterbikes put out ridiculous firepower. The Riptide has firepower matched by models 100pts less.

So when faced with an argument that shows the Riptide is better across the board you choose to focus on a single point where the Riptide is equal to or slightly worse then another tau unit. I love the logic my friend, but seriously stop please.

The only models I can think of that are common with a S10 AP1 Large blast are Vindicators and they have a range of 24inches. They are a vehicle so they are slow and easy to destroy.

Compare a riptide TO ALMOST ANY OTHER UNIT! and it will be better point for point by a large margin.

Riptides benefit from all the rules of a MC without any of the drawbacks (as few as there are) and benefit from all the tools and gear that a vehicle can take, but without that pesky Hull Point problem, nor the vehicle damage chart nor the inability to get a cover save with most vehicles.

Lets do a little test, I'll take 10 Hammerheads and you can take a riptide wing. Who wins? 10 Hammerheads put out 10 Large blast templates, lets just say all 10 hit, none Overcharged because it wouldn't benefit them that much. 10 at S7 Vs T6 = 6-7 wounds = 1 failed 2+ armor save, with a 1/3rd change to beat that because of 5+ FNP. FIRE THE MISSILES! 40 TL Ignores cover ignores LOS SMS shots. I think because they are drone controlled they are BS2? I don't play tau so I don't know, So if it BS2 then its about 13 his the first batch and 9 the 2nd so 22 hits. At S5 thats about 7 wounds, Against a 2+ Save and 5+ FNP thats again about 1 wound, (possibly zero) So in 1 full round of shooting the Hammerheads have done 2 wounds. YAY Hammerheads.

Riptides turn they do their wonderful little feth off Nova Charge and 1 fails, lets say it wounds and the riptide fails his own save because he is an idiot, so 3 wounds on the Tides. Those 2 nova templates will strike 1-2 hammerheads each so lets say 3 total hits at S9 AP2. Against AV13 So 50/50 to glance/pen. So lets go with 1 Pen total. Completely take away the chance of a glance. But because those Hammerheads didn't want to get blown up all 3 jinked. Successfully removing 3 units from realistically hurting the tides next turn. lets say the jink failed and it goes through and furthers stuns the crew and removes 1 HP from the Hammerhead. FIRE ZE MISSILES 12 TL BS4 Missiles that hit the rear armor because reasons equals about 10-11 hits. At S5 against AV 10 = 2-3 HPs stripped So BOOM one Enemy vehicle is destroyed.

So for the loss of ZERO dakka the Riptides have removed 1 enemy vehicle, forced 2-3 to Jink and have suffered 3 wounds. So a full 1/3rd of the enemy is either dead or useless the next turn......And from their it only gets worse because as the Riptides close the distance they will eventually get into CC Believe it or not where they get another phase of free butt kicking on the hammerheads.

Point being that in vacuum (dangerous I know) 3 riptides, not even in a wing formation, can ROFLSTOMP 10 Hammerheads. 10 hammerheads cost 1,250pts 3 Riptides cost 660pts (with stim injectors)

So what I am trying to say is that if you want the Riptide to be tanky REDUCE ITS BLOODY WEAPONS, if you want the riptide to be shooty, REDUCE ITS BLOODY ENDURANCE.
At the moment the riptides (which you love pointing out are 100pts more expensive then a hammerhead) are more then 3times as effective as Hammerheads.

This will be true against almost EVERY vehicle in the game including some of the smaller Titans. Hell I would get a riptide over a Stompa in a fight.

Trasvi wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
Agreed. As is, I have a lot of games where I remove 40 models by turn two using 3 tides in a wing, and that's on the low side (That's an average of 4.2-3 models per pie plate, pretty doable).

I've had games where its closer to 60 due to good scat rolls if the enemy doesn't take enough invul saves. Against horde armies it's a lot higher. Removing 1/3-1/2 of a greenskin force by turn two is absurd, and that's not including the other units.

If you're facing against a Tau army with footslogging Orks, they're all going to die before combat no matter what the Tau player uses. I'm sorry, but footslogging infantry in general isn't going to win games.

At no point did I say footslogging, you'll notice. The 40 models is against standard marine or eldar armies, 60 is against more horde armies, but it really doesn't matter what it is. It's not hard to clip 3-4, I've managed 5 before with lucky scatters, bikes a turn with it, after all, and dropping in makes you very vulnerable since you tend to be close together. Perhaps I should have said wounds. The only army that can match that kind of firepower is eldar with scat bikes, and its not against all units (against marines, for example, they don't perform nearly as well, although against orks they do a lot better than tides).

Outside of invul saves, which are typically 5+ outside of a deathstar or TWC (and the riptide doesn't do great against TWC to be fair), it really doesn't matter the unit type. It puts down 4-6 wounds per turn depending on the unit and how close they are, and kills pretty much everything it touches. With 3 of them, that's easily 12-18 wounds per turn, over the course of 3 turns, or 36-54 wounds minus invul saves. With the riptide wing, this can easily become ~48-72 wounds before most units reach the tau lines (even fast units take till turn 2, many take till turn 3). With a High strength, low ap, and removing cover from the lights, generally the model type doesn't factor in overly much, so I didn't specify. And this is 1/3 of the army roughly, this totally discounts the rest of the army firing as you get closer, and the rest of the tau guns aren't what I would call laughable. Look at model counts for most of the competitive armies and you'll find this is usually 2/3 of the force, if not more (count wounds, not models). I've had games where, turn 2, I have crippled every scat bike squad on the table with the tides and go after the WG. I'm talking 25+ Scatbikes ->3-4 scatbikes. And this is scat bikes, a unit that normally survives everything by either out ranging it, jinking, or just being T4 with a 3+ save and relatively cheap for what it does.

I'm not saying there are no counters. Wraiths, for example, are extremely fast and aren't phased by the firepower the tide brings. TWC are in a similar boat. Some daemon units as well. Teleporting grav cents can eliminate 1-2 per round depending on nova and what powers they have.

The tau have the rest of the army to use to mop those up, and sadly that's what the game becomes. The Riptide deletes most of the army outside of a few strong units and those units hopefully carry the game.

Still nice strawman

Please stop using the Riptide Wing in your examples.. basically everybody in this thread agrees that it is too strong, but that's a completely different discussion.

3 riptides in a CAD versus 3 riptides in a wing is a completely different power level. Without the wing, their output is mediocre and the nova charge fails often. I stand by my opinion that there are many many other things that would have to be nerfed before the riptide if the game should be brought down to orc/IG level.

Ushtarador wrote:
Please stop using the Riptide Wing in your examples.. basically everybody in this thread agrees that it is too strong, but that's a completely different discussion.

3 riptides in a CAD versus 3 riptides in a wing is a completely different power level. Without the wing, their output is mediocre and the nova charge fails often. I stand by my opinion that there are many many other things that would have to be nerfed before the riptide if the game should be brought down to orc/IG level.

Making the blast AP3 without NOVA or giving the Riptide 3+ armor does not knock it down anywhere NEAR Ork/IG level.

Martel732 wrote:

Ushtarador wrote:
Please stop using the Riptide Wing in your examples.. basically everybody in this thread agrees that it is too strong, but that's a completely different discussion.

3 riptides in a CAD versus 3 riptides in a wing is a completely different power level. Without the wing, their output is mediocre and the nova charge fails often. I stand by my opinion that there are many many other things that would have to be nerfed before the riptide if the game should be brought down to orc/IG level.

Making the blast AP3 without NOVA or giving the Riptide 3+ armor does not knock it down anywhere NEAR Ork/IG level.

Right, and I GREATLY appreciate the use of "OR" in your statement. Sadly, after our general but not-final consensus, new blood came to the thread and decided its revenge time. Because something else is bad, that they decided should be BETTER than the riptide, increase riptide to 500 points, reduce armor to 4+, make gun 24" s3 ap6 gets hot, make it LOW, etc...

Actually balancing discussion has been dead for pages, its just "Boo riptide," and extremely vitriolic comments both ways. This thread was a good start. Let's look at the purpose for the riptide, especially in light of the 7th ed update. What it was for in 6th has been marginalized in 7th with ghost keels and stormsurges. Being a jet-pack unit being a 3+ has merit, pattern, and sense, and either alone or with other MINOR adjustments is worth play testing, not "Boo riptide, no, also 500 points!"

Ushtarador wrote:
Please stop using the Riptide Wing in your examples.. basically everybody in this thread agrees that it is too strong, but that's a completely different discussion.

3 riptides in a CAD versus 3 riptides in a wing is a completely different power level. Without the wing, their output is mediocre and the nova charge fails often. I stand by my opinion that there are many many other things that would have to be nerfed before the riptide if the game should be brought down to orc/IG level.

Actually, if you read further up, people were saying the Riptide wing doesn't cause a large impact. Just because its not relevant to you, doesn't make it not relevant at all.
And I make sure to include both with and without the wing when discussing strengths and weaknesses. It's hardly ever taken without the wing, its become a core part of its identity though, so I probably shouldn't bother.

To state it without the formation is like saying cents are fine because they can't teleport on their own. Or Wraiths are fine because without the formation and tomb spyder they aren't THAT tough. While all of these are technically true, in practice it doesn't matter since you only see the unit taken in one particular style. The wing is such a no brainer, like the other options, that there is zero incentive not to take it, outside of not owning the models.

I remember before the wing, fans of the Tide would state you can't include it with Nova, or without the FnP roll, or various other parts of its loadout to make it seem fail. It's all hogwash of course, as is discussing it without the formation.



And yes, there are many things out there that are worse. The Wraiths with decurion is up there, the porting cents is bad, scatbikes are pretty horrible, as is the WK.
Nearly everyone agrees on that however. For some reason, a large group don't want to admit the Riptide is OP, so the discussion circles around them. It's hard to have a 6 page thread when the conversation goes like this;
"I think scatbikes are OP"
"Yeah"
"Oh yeah of course I try not to use them"
"Who doesn't think that?"
"What was GW thinking? X, Y, Z are the worst things about them!"
"Agree, X and Y seem really bad imo"
And end thread.

Compared to this one where we had someone compare the tide to the LR, and well...yeah. It's another mutilator thread.

Forcing a NOVA to get AP 2 on the blast or giving it 3+ armor makes it more reasonable in two very different ways. I'd probably boost the cost on the stim injector a bit as well in either case. Stacked saves are very powerful in this game.

At least scatbikes die.

Martel732 wrote:
Forcing a NOVA to get AP 2 on the blast or giving it 3+ armor makes it more reasonable in two very different ways. I'd probably boost the cost on the stim injector a bit as well in either case. Stacked saves are very powerful in this game.

At least scatbikes die.

3+ isn't a bad idea, I actually like the idea. And back on page.. 10? I stated I agree stims shouldn't be able to be taken. Many will disagree with me, because the nova-wound sucks, but I really don't think they belong. So much so that I literally never take them into any game I play because I am not TFG. I think that increasing the vulnerability roughly 9 times (except to grav) is and ok place to start.

Just maybe let me take earth cast pilot array again? It's 1 per army, a signature system made with the riptide in mind, but not allowed to be taken by any riptide save the named HQ which can only be taken with "The Eight" formation, per faq... garbage.

Let them have the stims, but make them PAY.

Ushtarador wrote:
Please stop using the Riptide Wing in your examples.. basically everybody in this thread agrees that it is too strong, but that's a completely different discussion.

3 riptides in a CAD versus 3 riptides in a wing is a completely different power level. Without the wing, their output is mediocre and the nova charge fails often. I stand by my opinion that there are many many other things that would have to be nerfed before the riptide if the game should be brought down to orc/IG level.

If your referring to my example, I didn't use the wing, if I had it would have been a lot more one sided after turn 1

Judging from what I've read in this thread...Riptides are pretty good

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Judging from what I've read in this thread...Riptides are pretty good

*looks with pity*

He believes in anything he reads in internet...

To state it without the formation is like saying cents are fine because they can't teleport on their own. Or Wraiths are fine because without the formation and tomb spyder they aren't THAT tough. While all of these are technically true, in practice it doesn't matter since you only see the unit taken in one particular style. The wing is such a no brainer, like the other options, that there is zero incentive not to take it, outside of not owning the models.

But it's not the same thing. The riptide wing is so stupidly good because it removes basically ALL the weaknesses of a normal riptide! Just like teleporting/cover ignoring centurions, or skyhammer grav devastators, it makes it a completely different unit. Same with wraiths that are supposed to die to massed fire due to the 3+ save, but get boosted to unreasonable levels of survival with the harvest. The solution to riptide wing should focus on the formation, not the unit the formation consists of. Else you just completely invalidate the unit outside of the formation and make the formation mandatory.

Making the blast AP3 without NOVA

This one I can definitely get behind. Someone already voiced the same thought I had when I first saw the 6th edition codex - the gun on the Riptide and the Hammerhead should definitely be switched, would make a lot more sense.


Anecdotally, I almost never see a riptide wing in our LGS outside of tournament practice, it's just not the power level we field for this kind of game. I had a very enjoyable game with my BA vs Tau last Sunday, with lots of firewarriors and Terminators, it's definitely possible

Seems to me that we need the following.
1: Lower it to 4 wounds
2: The Ion Accelerator becomes AP3 but using a Nova Charge on it makes both profiles AP2.
3: Remove the Riptide Wing formation from the game and pretend it never existed.
4: Make the Hammerhead's Ion AP2

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Judging from what I've read in this thread...Riptides are pretty good

*looks with pity*

He believes in anything he reads in internet...

Riptides are obscenely good, especially given how cheap they are.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Judging from what I've read in this thread...Riptides are pretty good

*looks with pity*

He believes in anything he reads in internet...

Riptides are obscenely good, especially given how cheap they are.

Reread my posts M.o.o.! You know I agree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vankraken wrote:
Seems to me that we need the following.
1: Lower it to 4 wounds
2: The Ion Accelerator becomes AP3 but using a Nova Charge on it makes both profiles AP2.
3: Remove the Riptide Wing formation from the game and pretend it never existed.
4: Make the Hammerhead's Ion AP2

I would say more:

1. No FnP
2. Amor 3+
3. What Riptide wing? Also, we always been at war with Eastasia.
4. Suggested changes to nova
5. Keep cost and wounds as is for now

Vehicles like hammereads and Vanquishers need help, but I would go with some shooting options, even one, taken from the Vindicare Assassin (like the d3 wounds/HP).

I'd say replace the "no FNP" with reduced range (36"?) on the Ion Accelerator. That way, the Riptide can no longer camp in corners dropping nova pie plates, and has to get in range to be taken down by volume of fire.
Can we also have a Heavy Burst Cannon buff? I'd say Heavy 15 on the Nova mode, with Gets Hot! removed is reasonable. In fact, drop the Gets Hot! on the nova mode of the IA. It is nonsensical to take 2 seperate tests to fire 1 gun.

Everything else is reasonable.
1. 3+ armor
2. Reduced range on IA
3. Removed Overcharge mode on IA
4. Purge Riptide Wing from existence

 Verviedi wrote:
I'd say replace the "no FNP" with reduced range (36"?) on the Ion Accelerator. That way, the Riptide can no longer camp in corners dropping nova pie plates, and has to get in range to be taken down by volume of fire.

Or remove the ability for FNP to be taken with no downsides at all. They're Stimulant Injectors. If you want to use them to FNP something, it should make you Snap Shoot.

Can we also have a Heavy Burst Cannon buff? I'd say Heavy 15 on the Nova mode, with Gets Hot! removed is reasonable. In fact, drop the Gets Hot! on the nova mode of the IA. It is nonsensical to take 2 seperate tests to fire 1 gun.

Yeah...no. If you wanted, say, a ROF boost with no concurrent stat boost? Probably acceptable without "Gets Hot!". But that's not what you get by doing the Nova mode.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Can we also have a Heavy Burst Cannon buff? I'd say Heavy 15 on the Nova mode, with Gets Hot! removed is reasonable. In fact, drop the Gets Hot! on the nova mode of the IA. It is nonsensical to take 2 seperate tests to fire 1 gun.


Yeah...no. If you wanted, say, a ROF boost with no concurrent stat boost? Probably acceptable without "Gets Hot!". But that's not what you get by doing the Nova mode.

Can you elaborate what you mean just a little bit here?

The for the HBC, the base rate is heavy 8, there is not overcharge, the nova charge (so 1/3rd chance of fail) and gets hot (so 1/6th chance of failed shot and/or wound) to get heavy 12 rending, same base S and AP. So increasing the number of shots is a big part of why you do it.

though statistically unlikely, you can kill yourself with your own shooting attack, and the principal of that is annoying.

 pumaman1 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Verviedi wrote:
Can we also have a Heavy Burst Cannon buff? I'd say Heavy 15 on the Nova mode, with Gets Hot! removed is reasonable. In fact, drop the Gets Hot! on the nova mode of the IA. It is nonsensical to take 2 seperate tests to fire 1 gun.

Yeah...no. If you wanted, say, a ROF boost with no concurrent stat boost? Probably acceptable without "Gets Hot!". But that's not what you get by doing the Nova mode.

Can you elaborate what you mean just a little bit here?

That if you wanted to simply go to a higher ROF? That'd be acceptable without the "Gets Hot" penalty. But that's not what you do.

The for the HBC, the base rate is heavy 8, there is not overcharge,

Nobody said anything about Overcharge. Not sure why you're even bringing it up beyond trying to throw something in that is completely irrelevant to the statement made.

the nova charge (so 1/3rd chance of fail) and gets hot (so 1/6th chance of failed shot and/or wound) to get heavy 12 rending, same base S and AP. though statistically unlikely, you can kill yourself with your own shooting attack. So increasing the number of shots is a big part of why you do it.

You have a 2/3rd chance to successfully Nova Charge and a Heavy 12 S6 AP4 with 36" and Rending at BS3 base with the ability to be boosted up by Markerlights.

"Gets Hot" is a joke penalty for the HBC, even with 12 shots at BS3.

though statistically unlikely, you can kill yourself with your own shooting attack, and the principal of that is annoying.

Yeah...I have no sympathy for you whatsoever. The Leman Russ Executioner is a tank built around a massive Plasma Cannon, which fluffwise, has always had it mentioned that it has an advanced cooling system because of that fact.

It can kill itself with "Gets Hot" rolls too. But it doesn't get to ever make saves because it's a vehicle.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Verviedi wrote:
Can we also have a Heavy Burst Cannon buff? I'd say Heavy 15 on the Nova mode, with Gets Hot! removed is reasonable. In fact, drop the Gets Hot! on the nova mode of the IA. It is nonsensical to take 2 seperate tests to fire 1 gun.

Yeah...no. If you wanted, say, a ROF boost with no concurrent stat boost? Probably acceptable without "Gets Hot!". But that's not what you get by doing the Nova mode.

Can you elaborate what you mean just a little bit here?

That if you wanted to simply go to a higher ROF? That'd be acceptable without the "Gets Hot" penalty. But that's not what you do.

The for the HBC, the base rate is heavy 8, there is not overcharge,

Nobody said anything about Overcharge. Not sure why you're even bringing it up beyond trying to throw something in that is completely irrelevant to the statement made.

the nova charge (so 1/3rd chance of fail) and gets hot (so 1/6th chance of failed shot and/or wound) to get heavy 12 rending, same base S and AP. though statistically unlikely, you can kill yourself with your own shooting attack. So increasing the number of shots is a big part of why you do it.

You have a 2/3rd chance to successfully Nova Charge and a Heavy 12 S6 AP4 with 36" and Rending at BS3 base with the ability to be boosted up by Markerlights.

"Gets Hot" is a joke penalty for the HBC, even with 12 shots at BS3.

though statistically unlikely, you can kill yourself with your own shooting attack, and the principal of that is annoying.

Yeah...I have no sympathy for you whatsoever. The Leman Russ Executioner is a tank built around a massive Plasma Cannon, which fluffwise, has always had it mentioned that it has an advanced cooling system because of that fact.

It can kill itself with "Gets Hot" rolls too. But it doesn't get to ever make saves because it's a vehicle.

Please stop breaking down my statements line by line, it makes it crazy long and annoying to read through.. The reference to no overcharge is for other people reading unfamiliar with the non-Ion Accelerator.

And yes marker lights are a thing, but 1s still get hot.

And I agree, the LR-Executioner should not be able to gets hot as its a dedicated plasma tossing platform. That I've seen them blow themselves up in 1 shooting phase is preposterous. But that's a different thread. No multi-wound/HP unit should be able to kill itself with its own weapon. Single wound models like pathfinders or devastators i can see, because the weapon "melted down" to being useless at best, and maybe killed the unit.

you don't need to state a lack of sympathy, you've shown that plenty so far. which is why i struggle to take anything you say with any value, because its not trying to understand where Tau players are coming from, you just want to destroy a unit that people paid quite a lot of money for, spent a great deal of time modeling and painting. It can become worse, but you don't make suggestions that make it remotely acceptable. It can still be a good unit when its done, worse than before, but still good.

I'm also interested as to how you would think that stimulant injectors would make something less accurate in shooting, somehow making the sophisticated targeting equipment of the Riptide cease to function.
Imperial Guard being a poorly written codex that is poorly written does not excuse a vendetta against every book that was written better than it.

 pumaman1 wrote:

Please stop breaking down my statements line by line, it makes it crazy long and annoying to read through.. The reference to no overcharge is for other people reading unfamiliar with the non-Ion Accelerator.

Yeah, no. I won't cease breaking down statements line by line. It really isn't any longer than a simple quotation. I do this for a reason: It makes it easier for me to reply to individual arguments and it lets me have a frame of reference to consult when someone like you tries to make arguments out of context.

And yes marker lights are a thing, but 1s still get hot.

1s still get hot, but what does reaching BS 6 or higher allow you to do?

Reroll missed To Hit rolls.

And I agree, the LR-Executioner should not be able to gets hot as its a dedicated plasma tossing platform. That I've seen them blow themselves up in 1 shooting phase is preposterous. But that's a different thread. No multi-wound/HP unit should be able to kill itself with its own weapon. Single wound models like pathfinders or devastators i can see, because the weapon "melted down" to being useless at best, and maybe killed the unit.

If you're so concerned about it "melting down", then don't use the primary weapon when Nova Charging?

It does have secondary weapons after all.

In any regards, if people want the HBC to be viable or lose "Gets Hot" when Nova'd? I'd be cool with that. Provided it loses Rending and doesn't get a crazy amount of shots.

you don't need to state a lack of sympathy, you've shown that plenty so far. which is why i struggle to take anything you say with any value, because its not trying to understand where Tau players are coming from, you just want to destroy a unit that people paid quite a lot of money for, spent a great deal of time modeling and painting.

And I have a hard time taking anything you say with value when you spout crap like "Fearless Guard blobs with Hymns" being an effective counter to Tau shooting.

It can become worse, but you don't make suggestions that make it remotely acceptable. It can still be a good unit when its done, worse than before, but still good.

I don't care if Tau players think it's "remotely acceptable". I don't care if you feel like your model isn't worth the money you paid for it. I have an Armored Company, nobody consulted me when they nerfed tanks into the ground.

Riptides are too powerful. End of story. They need a drastic nerfing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Verviedi wrote:
I'm also interested as to how you would think that stimulant injectors would make something less accurate in shooting, somehow making the sophisticated targeting equipment of the Riptide cease to function.

Stimulant Injectors aren't hooked into the Riptide's targeting equipment, are they?

There's still a pilot in the Riptide controlling the Riptide. It doesn't matter how awesome the targeting equipment is if the pilot's effectively having a seizure from having a chemical cocktail jacked into his system and pressing the wrong buttons.

Imperial Guard being a poorly written codex that is poorly written does not excuse a vendetta against every book that was written better than it.

Nor does Tau being a poorly written codex justify them never nerfing units within the book.

Riptides are way too good for what they are. The same thing goes for other things in other books, but we're not talking about them in this thread. Maybe if Tau players would stop getting so defensive about any proposed changes that aren't buffs for the Riptide we could have productive conversations.