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Lots of the arguments against riptides are to do with the markerlight support options they can use: but they are hardly ever compared to a unit from another army using equivalent support - Eg, prescience for most other armies can be easily obtained. Riptides magically seem to have Bs5 ignores cover all the time, yet the opposing units seldom have Endurance or Forewarning.
A single marker light providing ignores cover is all that's needed on a riptide. There is no way you can compare a single marker light (let's say two models firing the marker light) to a psyker needing to roll a certain power, being attached to a squad, and then successfully casting that power.
MLs are more likely to work, provide only slightly weaker benefits (for the most part, some psyker powers are nuts), and are often on solid platforms.
That's not to say psykers aren't nuts too. Most of the strongest combos in the game rely on some kind of synergy, either ML or psykers. ML and formations are just more stable and reliable, so you see them complained about more.
The "loss of guns" for each markerlight hit is not the loss of a pulse carbine: it's the loss of a crisis suit that you could have taken if you didn't include the markerlight in the first place. For the cost of 4 markerlight hits from gun drones you can almost afford another whole riptide. This isn't a foreign concept in many other games - Warmachine factions like Trolls or Menoth are (were) notorious for "tricking" new players in to over-spending on support without actually putting threats on the table.
That's true, support bloat is a big problem in many factions. But you still see the support taken, and its often the most complained about thing within the faction. People hate the Choir in menoth, it's absurdly annoying to not be able to shoot or get +2 to dmg (ON RANGED ATTACKS AND BLAST WEAPONS!). Without the Choir, menoth would be so much weaker than they are now.
A similar argument could be made for the Kriel stone for Trolls. In Skorne, the Pain Givers were a requirement. But they were nerfed pretty heavily, and now the entire faction has gone the way of the dodo.
My argument is this, in armies that have solid support options, those support options are expensive sure, but they are usually very strong if the faction is strong.
The formation Necrons and Tau have access to, along with their support units, are what makes them so strong.
To give a riptide bs5 ignores cover, you need 8 pathfinders or 12 gun drones - which is between 40% to 80% of the cost of another riptide. A riptide with bs5 ignores cover isn't 220 points, it's closer to 400.
Eh, the riptide just needs ignores cover. So 2-3 pathfinders are plenty. Cover saves reduce it's firepower quite a bit, but being large blast a few more points of BS usually aren't a big deal unless you're firing at remnants of a squad.
You have to really mess up badly for most CC lists to get anywhere near you.
I think the "CC sucks" meme is pretty overdone at this point. Most of the top armies in the game are built around a solid CC presence. Foot slogging cc dudes aren't great, but most armies can build a viable cavalry/bike/beast combat unit that should reach Tau in combat turn 2.
Only bikes can reach tau by turn 2. Beasts and such are turn 3 since they lack the incredible speed of the T1 boost.
Most top armies are not built around a solid CC presence either, a few are.
Space Marines - Shooty
Eldar - Shooty
Tau - Shooty
Necron - CC, very fast
Mechanicus - Shooty
SW - CC, fast but not T2
Daemons - CC, very fast.
There are 3 out of 7 top armies that are CC, 2 of which are fast. It's not most.
The two strongest, SM and Eldar, are shooty.
All support units cost points, but ML are significantly cheaper per unit buffed than say...a psyker.
They also have extra limitations. A psyker can buff the shooting of a unit whether or not he can see the target they wish to shoot at, for example. A Psyker can buff a unit and still shoot his own weapon to cause damage to the enemy. A psyker can gain the benefit of his own buffs. A psyker can cast buffs on multiple units in one turn without it decreasing the effectiveness of each individual buff. A psyker can move and cast a buff with no penalty to the power of the buff.
Eh, the riptide just needs ignores cover. So 2-3 pathfinders are plenty. Cover saves reduce it's firepower quite a bit, but being large blast a few more points of BS usually aren't a big deal unless you're firing at remnants of a squad.
The BS buff is usually to BS6 if you are increasing it, to grant a re-roll of Gets Hot.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/20 13:15:58
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Extremely rarely. The psyker buffing powers are mostly awful, a few like teleporting and biomancy sure, but for the most part this isn't a big deal. Usually this is because he has to travel with the unit and can't afford to leave them out of LoS.
A psyker can cast buffs on multiple units in one turn without it decreasing the effectiveness of each individual buff. A psyker can move and cast a buff with no penalty to the power of the buff.
This is also a bit of a stretch.
A psyker could not even get the powers he wants, making him a massive waste of points. MLs never have this problem.
A psyker can fail to cast the power he wants, making him useless for that turn. MLs rarely miss across the entire faction.
A psyker can not have the best equipment loadout for his power set (all close combat powers rolled and he didn't bring a good weapon, or close range powers but he doesn't have a way to move quickly).
A psyker rarely has enough charges to get multiple powers off reliably unless you are investing heavily in psykers.
MLs are way better than the standard psyker because they are so reliable and cheaper. If I put MLs on units that need to die, any unit firing on it can use it rather than the one unit I buffed. My psyker better roll the power, cast the power, and the one unit better roll well or I wasted my 200 pt activation. You're glossing over the issues psykers have and overplaying the weakness of the lights (the psyker's guns? seriously? That bolt pistol is that important...?)
Eh, the riptide just needs ignores cover. So 2-3 pathfinders are plenty. Cover saves reduce it's firepower quite a bit, but being large blast a few more points of BS usually aren't a big deal unless you're firing at remnants of a squad.
The BS buff is usually to BS6 if you are increasing it, to grant a re-roll of Gets Hot.
This seems like a massive waste of MLs. All I need is ignores cover on my wing and I'm deleting 2 squads a turn, close to 4 if I use the power to fire twice. Outside of that, the MLs are nice to give +1-2 BS but not critical.
Do people in competitive games do this? I've never seen it done, get's hot just isn't that frightening.
To buy another 8 pathfinders to remove gets hot is a huge waste of points.
All support units cost points, but ML are significantly cheaper per unit buffed than say...a psyker.
They also have extra limitations. A psyker can buff the shooting of a unit whether or not he can see the target they wish to shoot at, for example. A Psyker can buff a unit and still shoot his own weapon to cause damage to the enemy. A psyker can gain the benefit of his own buffs. A psyker can cast buffs on multiple units in one turn without it decreasing the effectiveness of each individual buff. A psyker can move and cast a buff with no penalty to the power of the buff.
A Psyker can also Perils and blow themselves and nearby squads up.
What's the penalty for Markerlights again?
Oh right..."I paid points for them!"
Psykers ain't free either. And you can stop those buffs as well, whether you have a Psyker or not.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/20 13:52:39
To remove cover you need 6 gun drones on average, more if you want to get it reliably. That costs already as much as a ML2 space marine psyker. Psychic buffs are also way more powerful and game-changing, it's not even comparable. Comparing BS increase and no cover with Endurance, Invisibility or Summoning is ridiculous.
Using any of the conclave formations makes psychic buffs very reliable every turn and ensure you almost always get the power you want. The chance of a non-psyker army preventing key powers with their 1d6 dice is about the same as a Tau missing all their markerlight shots at once.
Of course markerlight support usually costs less points than proper psyker support, but that's because the entire list is built around the psykers, they are a much more important and powerful element in those armies! I don't even know what the discussion is about here.. some lists build their entire winning strategy on psychic powers, that's not even possible with markerlights.
A Psyker can also Perils and blow themselves and nearby squads up.
This happens once every 60th perils or so, and only affects his own squad, please.. that's like saying markerlights are bad because sometimes you miss with all the shots.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/20 14:18:50
Gamgee wrote: My friend the Tyranid player even managed to take out my ML's in a few of our games. The even worse IG player who has not won a single game ever took out my ML's. The chaos space marine player took out my ML support.
I don't understand how people can claim they can't do it when I've seen the weakest armies in the game do it.
I did run a casual Tau army though with only one RIptide and lots of Kroot.
Why are you letting them do that? Tau can shoot every threat to their markerlights off the table before they can fire usually.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/20 14:20:21
You must be kidding. There are multiple SM lists around that can easily pull off a first turn charge against Tau anywhere on the table, it's not even a close matchup if they get first turn.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/20 14:22:42
You must be kidding. There are multiple SM lists around that can easily pull off a first turn charge against Tau anywhere on the table, it's not even a close matchup if they get first turn.
I'm honestly lost, how are TWC getting a first turn charge on the back line?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ushtarador wrote: To remove cover you need 6 gun drones on average, more if you want to get it reliably. That costs already as much as a ML2 space marine psyker. Psychic buffs are also way more powerful and game-changing, it's not even comparable. Comparing BS increase and no cover with Endurance, Invisibility or Summoning is ridiculous.
6 gun drones if you don't use a commander or anything similar to improve the marker lights. There are some nice combos tau can do to get a strong marker light unit that can tank hits quite well after all. Let's not forget that 6 drones are cheap and put some wounds on the table as well. And can move and do the ML, removing one of the weaknesses that someone was speaking to earlier.
A single ML2 psyker isn't enough to rely on psychic powers. 6 drones will allow me to fire at a unit without cover saves however. I need more charges and unless its divination I won't be getting the powers I want. Psyker is all in or nothing, barring some SCs. MLs don't have that issue.
Psychic powers are stronger, but must be rolled for and cast successfully.
Using any of the conclave formations makes psychic buffs very reliable every turn and ensure you almost always get the power you want. The chance of a non-psyker army preventing key powers with their 1d6 dice is about the same as a Tau missing all their markerlight shots at once.
We aren't comparing psykers to Tau alone, but across all armies. Some armies are quite good at dispelling compared to others.
Of course markerlight support usually costs less points than proper psyker support, but that's because the entire list is built around the psykers, they are a much more important and powerful element in those armies! I don't even know what the discussion is about here.. some lists build their entire winning strategy on psychic powers, that's not even possible with markerlights.
Of course its possible around MLs, every Tau army uses MLs to remove cover and increase their to hit chance.
A few armies are built around psykers. Notably marines. Eldar to an extent. Daemons. The rest of the stronger armies don't bother, it's too much of a point investment unless you are 100% positive you'll get the power you want.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/20 14:37:56
Well, when you add a buffmander to drones, we are looking at over 200 points again, which is the cost of another riptide. Also, the unit becomes an even juicier target, because you eliminate both MLs and the warlord in one go.
Of course its possible around MLs, every Tau army uses MLs to remove cover and increase their to hit chance.
Yes, but markerlights are usually ~200 points of support units that augment the shooting of the rest of the army. Psykers are usually embedded in the buffed unit, dish out quite good damage in close combat and have strong offensive capabilities through debuff powers. The Tau army works less efficient without MLs, psyker armies usually don't work at all without psykers. MLs will do more reliably what they do, but they are also much more one-dimensional and predictable (not to mention easier to shut down).
Also, one of the beauties of 40k is the probability game. You will never have a 100% chance to get that psychic power, but 90% is usually enough for all intents and purposes. Sure every 10th game it will go wrong, but every army is eventually betrayed by the dice.
Playing a single psyker is like playing a single unit of 6 gun drones, it is not reliable (6 drones have a good chance getting less than 2 hits in fact). That's why you build a competitive list such that the probabilities are pushed down sufficiently, taking more than one psyker and more than one markerlight source.
We aren't comparing psykers to Tau alone, but across all armies. Some armies are quite good at dispelling compared to others.
True, but then it's a very different matchup, where both armies cancel out each others concept. Also, you manifest powers on 3+ or better with formation, the opponent still only banishes on a 6. You are not at a disadvantage per se, it's like playing Tau vs Tau where both sides have MLs.
I'm honestly lost, how are TWC getting a first turn charge on the back line?
Quite a standard army is a big blob of TWC with an allied librarius conclave, then using your choice of shifting worldscape and electrodisplacement (for T1 charge) or invisibility (for T2 charge because you can't kill them).
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/10/20 14:53:29
All support units cost points, but ML are significantly cheaper per unit buffed than say...a psyker.
They also have extra limitations. A psyker can buff the shooting of a unit whether or not he can see the target they wish to shoot at, for example. A Psyker can buff a unit and still shoot his own weapon to cause damage to the enemy. A psyker can gain the benefit of his own buffs. A psyker can cast buffs on multiple units in one turn without it decreasing the effectiveness of each individual buff. A psyker can move and cast a buff with no penalty to the power of the buff.
Eh, the riptide just needs ignores cover. So 2-3 pathfinders are plenty. Cover saves reduce it's firepower quite a bit, but being large blast a few more points of BS usually aren't a big deal unless you're firing at remnants of a squad.
The BS buff is usually to BS6 if you are increasing it, to grant a re-roll of Gets Hot.
I have to reply to the last part, because it isn't true. 2+/5+++ is perfectly functional against Gets Hot and I don't know why you'd waste that many marker lights unless you had literally nothing better to do.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
I have to reply to the last part, because it isn't true. 2+/5+++ is perfectly functional against Gets Hot and I don't know why you'd waste that many marker lights unless you had literally nothing better to do.
It's not about the wound, it's about the 16% chance of the weapon not firing, which can throw a serious spanner in your works (especially if you already wasted 2 marker lights to remove cover). If you already invest so many points to shoot something, the 1/6 chance to fail becomes too high.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/20 14:56:15
Ushtarador wrote: Well, when you add a buffmander to drones, we are looking at over 200 points again, which is the cost of another riptide. Also, the unit becomes an even juicier target, because you eliminate both MLs and the warlord in one go.
True, the idea is to have an incredibly tanky unit that absorbs firepower quite well while placing markerlights downfield. It's actually a very solid strategy, try it if you haven't. My army is that unit with a decent amount of drones, Riptide Wings, Suits, and some warriors. I'm not undefeated but manage to do well outside of necrons.
Of course its possible around MLs, every Tau army uses MLs to remove cover and increase their to hit chance.
Yes, but markerlights are usually ~200 points of support units that augment the shooting of the rest of the army.
To be fair, at that point you have...what, 15 drones on the table? That's a decent amount of marker lights and wounds on the table compared to 1 psyker.
Psykers are usually embedded in the buffed unit, dish out quite good damage in close combat and have strong offensive capabilities through debuff powers. The Tau army works less efficient without MLs, psyker armies usually don't work at all without psykers. MLs will do more reliably what they do, but they are also much more one-dimensional and predictable (not to mention easier to shut down).
I don't think markerlights are easier to shut down at all. My above unit rarely dies, and it's not easy killing 15 drones with long range guns that can move around like they do. You usually shut them down by turn 4 or 5, but by that point the Tau have won or lost. Really, tau win or lose by turn 2 or 3.
Besides, psykers are usually taken to cast 1 power, and often it's a toughness power or movement power. Nobody is casting debuffs, witchfires, or anything of the sort. You are teleporting, raising toughness, granting re-rolls, etc etc.
It's rare for a psyker to cast 2 powers unless you've gone all in on psykers, spending several times more than a tau player will on lights and shrinking your army size to a few units plus a deathstar.
Also, one of the beauties of 40k is the probability game. You will never have a 100% chance to get that psychic power, but 90% is usually enough for all intents and purposes. Sure every 10th game it will go wrong, but every army is eventually betrayed by the dice.
Wouldn't call it a beauty, and 90% is very overblown. You need multiple psykers to get that one power barring SCs, which is why you see SCs used so often.
We aren't comparing psykers to Tau alone, but across all armies. Some armies are quite good at dispelling compared to others.
True, but then it's a very different matchup, where both armies cancel out each others concept. Also, you manifest powers on 3+ or better with formation, the opponent still only banishes on a 6. You are not at a disadvantage per se, it's like playing Tau vs Tau where both sides have MLs.
The formation is expensive as well, so we can talk about support bloat there if you'd like. You still want 3-4 warp charges for a 2 WC power, which isn't the greatest trade out there. It certainly helps, since normally you'd want 5-6 charges for a 2 WC power.
There are zero ways to counter marker lights compared to powers. That's all I was implying, it's a strict advantage.
I'm honestly lost, how are TWC getting a first turn charge on the back line?
Quite a standard army is a big blob of TWC with an allied librarius conclave, then using your choice of shifting worldscape and electrodisplacement (for T1 charge) or invisibility (for T2 charge because you can't kill them).
Ah, that seems like a good power though it seems you need to build your whole army around it and will only deliver one unit. You need a drop pod squad or scout squad, to roll the 6 power, cast the 2 or 3 WC power, and be within the casting distance.
I remember someone mentioning this in another thread, and while its good, I don't think it shuts down the Tau army. I'll have to try it, but I imagine going second would mean you lose a squad and blow the wolves up since the rest of the army is far enough down field where you can worry about them next turn. Against Tau what kills me is units arriving all at once in a wave. Necron wraith wing is my hardest match up, I can't handle 30 wraiths hitting my lines at once. But something like daemons or SW are an easier match up, since every turn there are 1-3 units that I have to kill no matter what, but that's pretty doable for the Tau.
I gotta go now so I can't answer in detail, but you raise some fair points I didn't want to say that markerlights are better or worse than psykers - they both support a list, but not in the same way, and I don't believe you can say that in general one is superior over the other.
Just giving an example of a list from this year's ETC. It starts out as one big blob, wrecks your face and then splits up into many small but powerful characters to mop up the remains, that's why it's so strong. Yes, as a Tau player getting turn 1 can but a serious dent in this list (unless there is a good LoS-blocking piece of terrain on the table), but it's never an easy win.
Spoiler:
== PRIMARY DETACHMENT: COMBINED ARMS DETACHMENTÂCODEX: DARK ANGELS ==
HQ 1: Chaplain (90): Bolt Pistol (0) Space Marine Bike (20) Auspex (5) Crozius Arcanum (0) - [115 pts]
Troop 1: Scout Squad (55): 5 Boltguns (0) 5 bolt pistols (0) - [55pts]
Troop 2: Scout Squad (55): 5 Shotguns (0) 5 bolt pistols (0) - [55pts]
Elite 1: Ravenwing Command Squad (120): 3ÂPlasma talons (0) 2 Corvex hammers (0) 1 Blade of Caliban (0-Champion) Apothecary (30), Champion (5) - [155pts]
FA 1: Ravenwing Bike Squad - [75pts]
LOW1: Azrael – [215 pts] WARLORD
== SECONDARY DETACHMENT: DARK ANGELS LIBRARIUS CONCLAVE ==
HQ 1: Ezekiel – [145pts]
HQ 2: Librarian (65): Bolt Pistol (0), force axe (0), space marine bike (20), Mastery Level 2 (25) – [110pts]
HQ 3: Librarian (65): Bolt Pistol (0), force axe (0), space marine bike (20), Mastery Level 2 (25) – [110pts]
HQ 4: Librarian (65): Bolt Pistol (0), force stave (0), jump pack (15) – [80pts]
== TERTIARY DETACHMENT: COMPANY OF THE GREAT WOLF DETACHMENT ==
HQ 1: Iron Priest (75): Bolt Pistol (0), 3 cyber wolves (3x15=45), Thunderwolf Mount (50) – [170pts]
HQ 2: Iron Priest (75): Bolt Pistol (0), 3 cyber wolves (3x15=45), Thunderwolf Mount (50) – [170pts]
HQ 3: Iron Priest (75): Bolt Pistol (0), 2 cyber wolves (2x15=30); Thunderwolf Mount (50) – [155pts]
Elite 1: Iron Priest (55): Bolt Pistol (0), 1 cyber wolf (15), Thunderwolf Mount (50) - [120pts]
Elite 2: Iron Priest (55): Bolt Pistol (0), 1 cyber wolf (15), Thunderwolf Mount (50) - [120pts]
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/20 15:18:03
I have to reply to the last part, because it isn't true. 2+/5+++ is perfectly functional against Gets Hot and I don't know why you'd waste that many marker lights unless you had literally nothing better to do.
It's not about the wound, it's about the 16% chance of the weapon not firing, which can throw a serious spanner in your works (especially if you already wasted 2 marker lights to remove cover). If you already invest so many points to shoot something, the 1/6 chance to fail becomes too high.
There's multiple Riptides that are just as hard to kill. You're really that concerned about ONE you'd spend a few marker lights on? Give me a break.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
I have to reply to the last part, because it isn't true. 2+/5+++ is perfectly functional against Gets Hot and I don't know why you'd waste that many marker lights unless you had literally nothing better to do.
It's not about the wound, it's about the 16% chance of the weapon not firing, which can throw a serious spanner in your works (especially if you already wasted 2 marker lights to remove cover). If you already invest so many points to shoot something, the 1/6 chance to fail becomes too high.
There's multiple Riptides that are just as hard to kill. You're really that concerned about ONE you'd spend a few marker lights on? Give me a break.
Again, the problem is not the risk of the Riptide dying, especially with the IA. One Gets Hot wound? So what, even if you fail the armor save. The problem is that the gun doesn't shoot at all if you roll that one, and you essentially lose the unit's damage output for the turn. So yes, spending 3 marker tokens to reduce the chances of failure to fire from 1/6 to 1/36, and also reduce scatter by 3"? Yes, that seems like a straightforwardly useful use of resources. (Ok, I absolutely ABHOR the IA, but if you choose to use it, increasing BS to avoid having your shot fizzle is sensible.)
With the HBC, a large volume of self-inflicted wounds are a bit of a concern - easy enough to mitigate with ECPA, BS 6+ or the Command-Link Drone, however, so that's never worried me too much. (It's just a disincentive toward the weapon that better fits what the Riptide is meant to be doing, which irritates the hezmana out of me.)
That's exactly my point. Why does it matter if one doesn't shoot when the others will? It is a bad argument and really grasping at straws to show any semblance of balance for the Riptide.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Actually something that would make the ion accelerator more fair would be a gets hot roll that fails on a 1 or 2. If you have to keep it as is. I think AP 3 is a better compromise.
Martel732 wrote: Actually something that would make the ion accelerator more fair would be a gets hot roll that fails on a 1 or 2. If you have to keep it as is. I think AP 3 is a better compromise.
Hence why the ion accelerator shouldn't have a non-Nova blast profile. Then we remove gets hot from the Nova profile (the risk has already been accounted for in the Nova roll) and either reduce the range or increase the points (possibly both).
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Martel732 wrote: Actually something that would make the ion accelerator more fair would be a gets hot roll that fails on a 1 or 2. If you have to keep it as is. I think AP 3 is a better compromise.
I'd actually rather have it drop to 30" range, AP4 and Heavy 6, lose the overcharge mode, but leave the nova mode as-is (except shorten the range from 72" to 30").
Martel732 wrote: Actually something that would make the ion accelerator more fair would be a gets hot roll that fails on a 1 or 2. If you have to keep it as is. I think AP 3 is a better compromise.
I'd actually rather have it drop to 30" range, AP4 and Heavy 6, lose the overcharge mode, but leave the nova mode as-is (except shorten the range from 72" to 30").
Well seeing as almost everyone keeps saying the riptide is supposed to be a tanky distraction carnifex it should have wicked short range guns, get it in range of some more of my Powerklaws so I have an actual chance of killing the damned things.
That's exactly my point. Why does it matter if one doesn't shoot when the others will? It is a bad argument and really grasping at straws to show any semblance of balance for the Riptide.
The feth? In your initial post you asked why people would want to increase the BS to 6, and we explained to you why it is generally a good use of your markerlights. This has absolutely nothing to do with the balance discussion, and nobody said it is necessary for riptides to be good, I don't know how you jump to this conclusion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/20 22:36:55
The IA is supposed to be the antitank weapon, but GW borked it by deciding for whatever reason to use the ion weapon template (multiple shots or one large blast, with long range).
If it were something like an improved fusion collider, it might be better/
Honestly, GW has *no* clue how to do big guns. They seem to love the idea of "big anti-tank gun fires a single small blast with a scary profile", and that never works.
Somewhat of a divergence, here, but if I were gonna redo some of the Tau "big guns", here's what I'd do:
Railgun: R72 S10 AP1 Primary Weapon 1, Sunder
Ion Cannon: R60 S7 AP3 Heavy 4 OR R60 S8 AP2 Ordnance 1, Large Blast, Gets Hot
Heavy Burst Cannon: R36 S6 AP4 Heavy 8 OR R36 S6 AP4 Heavy 15, Rending, Nova-Charge
Ion Accelerator: R30 S7 AP4 Heavy 6 OR R30 S9 AP2 Ordnance 1, Large Blast, Gets Hot, Nova-Charge
Fusion Collider: R18 S8 AP1 Heavy 3, Melta
Cyclic Ion Raker: This one is fine, no change needed.
I suppose one could make a case for dropping the HBC to R24 or R30, but IMHO, the HBC isn't really the rage-inducing weapon. It does more damage, statistically, but it doesn't feel as bad - less of the "ha ha, you die, and there's nothing you can do about it" effect. (Which is counterbalanced by "oh, dammit, the big gun that I paid for this big model just to get didn't even shoot" which is obnoxious in the other direction.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/21 12:44:11
That's exactly my point. Why does it matter if one doesn't shoot when the others will? It is a bad argument and really grasping at straws to show any semblance of balance for the Riptide.
The feth? In your initial post you asked why people would want to increase the BS to 6, and we explained to you why it is generally a good use of your markerlights. This has absolutely nothing to do with the balance discussion, and nobody said it is necessary for riptides to be good, I don't know how you jump to this conclusion.
Except it isn't a good use. 1/6 chance while you have other ones to fire with and support with Marker Lights? Bad idea and you should feel bad for doing it.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
That's exactly my point. Why does it matter if one doesn't shoot when the others will? It is a bad argument and really grasping at straws to show any semblance of balance for the Riptide.
The feth? In your initial post you asked why people would want to increase the BS to 6, and we explained to you why it is generally a good use of your markerlights. This has absolutely nothing to do with the balance discussion, and nobody said it is necessary for riptides to be good, I don't know how you jump to this conclusion.
Except it isn't a good use. 1/6 chance while you have other ones to fire with and support with Marker Lights? Bad idea and you should feel bad for doing it.
All those other Riptides also have a 1/6 chance to not fire if you're using a blast profile.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/21 14:47:37
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Also, since you have so many riptides anyway, what else would you use the MLs for? I'd rather get a precise, guaranteed S8AP2 blast than boost some firewarriors to BS5.
That's exactly my point. Why does it matter if one doesn't shoot when the others will? It is a bad argument and really grasping at straws to show any semblance of balance for the Riptide.
The feth? In your initial post you asked why people would want to increase the BS to 6, and we explained to you why it is generally a good use of your markerlights. This has absolutely nothing to do with the balance discussion, and nobody said it is necessary for riptides to be good, I don't know how you jump to this conclusion.
Except it isn't a good use. 1/6 chance while you have other ones to fire with and support with Marker Lights? Bad idea and you should feel bad for doing it.
All those other Riptides also have a 1/6 chance to not fire if you're using a blast profile.
Which is...1 out of 6 of them a turn if you use six. So you boost multiple rather than focusing on just one to buff...
It is a bad argument, sorry.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
That's exactly my point. Why does it matter if one doesn't shoot when the others will? It is a bad argument and really grasping at straws to show any semblance of balance for the Riptide.
The feth? In your initial post you asked why people would want to increase the BS to 6, and we explained to you why it is generally a good use of your markerlights. This has absolutely nothing to do with the balance discussion, and nobody said it is necessary for riptides to be good, I don't know how you jump to this conclusion.
Except it isn't a good use. 1/6 chance while you have other ones to fire with and support with Marker Lights? Bad idea and you should feel bad for doing it.
All those other Riptides also have a 1/6 chance to not fire if you're using a blast profile.
Which is...1 out of 6 of them a turn if you use six. So you boost multiple rather than focusing on just one to buff...
It is a bad argument, sorry.
Or it could be all 6. And who said we were talking about firing multiple Riptides in the first place?
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
You will never have a 100% chance to get that psychic power, but 90% is usually enough for all intents and purposes. Sure every 10th game it will go wrong, but every army is eventually betrayed by the dice.
I didn't want to say that markerlights are better or worse than psykers - they both support a list, but not in the same way, and I don't believe you can say that in general one is superior over the other.
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