The Riptide: what *should* it be for?

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**SemperMortis**

pumaman1 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Ushtarador wrote:

You are missing A) The 3++ and FNP, and B) The combined overwatch of half the Tau army.

For the price of a tide with FnP I can get almost 2 Fragiosos though (of course the 3++ works 100% of the time). Overwatch against AV13 is laughable dude. Or do the riptides suddenly have fusion blasters everywhere? And did you again forget to kill the markerlights? Also, I thought firewarriors were bad anyway and nobody plays them, why are they suddenly there to bubblewrap?

The reality is that I could probably take a BA list with double the points of a Tau list and still lose the match due to unit depletion.

And there I thought it couldn't get sillier. If you lose this matchup with double the points you should stop playing any competitive game ever. You remind me very much of that one guy we have in the store, who always tries out some netlists once, loses against experienced people and then whines how OP the other armies are.

And you don't think that your Fragiosos would get shot to hell the turn they deepstrike? Yeah the Tides might not have Fusion guns but im sure other units around riptide will. And unless the majority of your army is deepstriking into the Tau lines those handful of units you do Deepstrike are going to be shot to hell easily.

I am sorry, but in a vacuum where we keep making up loop holes this argument can go on forever. Take a step back and think about this for a bit. Would you be ok facing my Orks if my Morkanaut became a Jump MC with a 2+ Save and a 3++ save as well as a 5+++, dropped in price by about 40pts and gained BS3 with all of its weapons basically getting HUGE buffs? IE The KMK became large blast and the TL Big shoota became TL Supa Shootas?

No, I think people would start talking about Ork cheese (Im assuming its green colored). Riptides are a great unit that went overboard with durability. They should be capped out at 3+ save 4++ save and FNP should be a lot more expensive to purchase. Its weapons also need a serious nerf in range as well as AP.

...sigh.. "Nerf all the characteristics and increase points cost!"

That's how you shut down conversations, because no one will accept that.

Morkanaut should be better, all of orks should be better, we agree. The riptide is too good for what it costs in a general meta (not top v. top, or top v. bottom, but Tau v. all) But making it softer (easier to wound, ok that's fair), weaker (reducing ap,... not the AP "significantly" ap3 is ok), myopic (72", yes too far, 24" worth play testing? but that alone would dramatically shift it, as it will be tied up if not swept more often), AND more expensive? You've killed the conversation. Its better than the bottom rung codexes bad units, but its not even middling tier at 3 w 3+ 5/4++ 5+++ 24"s7 ap4 300 points that you are asking for.

So I said to nerf all the characteristics and increase the cost? I need to focus on my typing skills more because im pretty sure I said it needs to have reduced durability in regards to its saves, and that its weapon needs to be shorter range with a lesser AP. Going from Range 72 to Range 36 is a HUGE nerf and it would still be good. Going from AP2 to AP3 is a HUGE nerf but it would still be acceptable.

I think those above mentioned nerfs would be fine, no points increase needed.

Also I used the Morkanaut as an example not because im saying BUFF ORKS but because its about the closest thing I have to a Riptide in regards to size, weapons and points cost.

**pumaman1**

I did errantly sum up some prior "suggestions" to you, and I apologize for projecting them onto you.

And will also say buff orks, because seriously, 1st codex of 7th ed, and they broke the nerf bat on them.

**bleak**

SemperMortis wrote:
pumaman1 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Ushtarador wrote:

You are missing A) The 3++ and FNP, and B) The combined overwatch of half the Tau army.

For the price of a tide with FnP I can get almost 2 Fragiosos though (of course the 3++ works 100% of the time). Overwatch against AV13 is laughable dude. Or do the riptides suddenly have fusion blasters everywhere? And did you again forget to kill the markerlights? Also, I thought firewarriors were bad anyway and nobody plays them, why are they suddenly there to bubblewrap?

The reality is that I could probably take a BA list with double the points of a Tau list and still lose the match due to unit depletion.

And there I thought it couldn't get sillier. If you lose this matchup with double the points you should stop playing any competitive game ever. You remind me very much of that one guy we have in the store, who always tries out some netlists once, loses against experienced people and then whines how OP the other armies are.

And you don't think that your Fragiosos would get shot to hell the turn they deepstrike? Yeah the Tides might not have Fusion guns but im sure other units around riptide will. And unless the majority of your army is deepstriking into the Tau lines those handful of units you do Deepstrike are going to be shot to hell easily.

I am sorry, but in a vacuum where we keep making up loop holes this argument can go on forever. Take a step back and think about this for a bit. Would you be ok facing my Orks if my Morkanaut became a Jump MC with a 2+ Save and a 3++ save as well as a 5+++, dropped in price by about 40pts and gained BS3 with all of its weapons basically getting HUGE buffs? IE The KMK became large blast and the TL Big shoota became TL Supa Shootas?

No, I think people would start talking about Ork cheese (Im assuming its green colored). Riptides are a great unit that went overboard with durability. They should be capped out at 3+ save 4++ save and FNP should be a lot more expensive to purchase. Its weapons also need a serious nerf in range as well as AP.

...sigh.. "Nerf all the characteristics and increase points cost!"

That's how you shut down conversations, because no one will accept that.

Morkanaut should be better, all of orks should be better, we agree. The riptide is too good for what it costs in a general meta (not top v. top, or top v. bottom, but Tau v. all) But making it softer (easier to wound, ok that's fair), weaker (reducing ap,... not the AP "significantly" ap3 is ok), myopic (72", yes too far, 24" worth play testing? but that alone would dramatically shift it, as it will be tied up if not swept more often), AND more expensive? You've killed the conversation. Its better than the bottom rung codexes bad units, but its not even middling tier at 3 w 3+ 5/4++ 5+++ 24"s7 ap4 300 points that you are asking for.

So I said to nerf all the characteristics and increase the cost? I need to focus on my typing skills more because im pretty sure I said it needs to have reduced durability in regards to its saves, and that its weapon needs to be shorter range with a lesser AP. Going from Range 72 to Range 36 is a HUGE nerf and it would still be good. Going from AP2 to AP3 is a HUGE nerf but it would still be acceptable.

I think those above mentioned nerfs would be fine, no points increase needed.

Also I used the Morkanaut as an example not because im saying BUFF ORKS but because its about the closest thing I have to a Riptide in regards to size, weapons and points cost.

SemperMortis, have you seen the new campaign books? IIRC, the latest Angel's blade book have pretty amazing formations that makes BA really do what they do best that would give tau commanders a pause.

And if you are talking about nerfs, we should nerf the drop pods, because at 35 points, its too tough to take down for something that is objective secured, come in reserves first turn, no mishap unless it falls out the table, and gives cover saves to the marines inside it. There are many other units that needs to be nerfed also but that just opens a whole can of worms.

The riptide in fluff was able to dish out damage from far to take over imperium strongholds while holding their own when artillery strikes. It was GW's plan to push the models I would agree, but saying its an end all just makes no sense. There are some armies out there which have an advantage over a riptide wing actually.

And to be honest, playing a small game using multiple riptides is just bad sport, especially in more casual games. That I would agree.

**master of ordinance**

bleak wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
pumaman1 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Ushtarador wrote:

You are missing A) The 3++ and FNP, and B) The combined overwatch of half the Tau army.

For the price of a tide with FnP I can get almost 2 Fragiosos though (of course the 3++ works 100% of the time). Overwatch against AV13 is laughable dude. Or do the riptides suddenly have fusion blasters everywhere? And did you again forget to kill the markerlights? Also, I thought firewarriors were bad anyway and nobody plays them, why are they suddenly there to bubblewrap?

The reality is that I could probably take a BA list with double the points of a Tau list and still lose the match due to unit depletion.

And there I thought it couldn't get sillier. If you lose this matchup with double the points you should stop playing any competitive game ever. You remind me very much of that one guy we have in the store, who always tries out some netlists once, loses against experienced people and then whines how OP the other armies are.

And you don't think that your Fragiosos would get shot to hell the turn they deepstrike? Yeah the Tides might not have Fusion guns but im sure other units around riptide will. And unless the majority of your army is deepstriking into the Tau lines those handful of units you do Deepstrike are going to be shot to hell easily.

I am sorry, but in a vacuum where we keep making up loop holes this argument can go on forever. Take a step back and think about this for a bit. Would you be ok facing my Orks if my Morkanaut became a Jump MC with a 2+ Save and a 3++ save as well as a 5+++, dropped in price by about 40pts and gained BS3 with all of its weapons basically getting HUGE buffs? IE The KMK became large blast and the TL Big shoota became TL Supa Shootas?

No, I think people would start talking about Ork cheese (Im assuming its green colored). Riptides are a great unit that went overboard with durability. They should be capped out at 3+ save 4++ save and FNP should be a lot more expensive to purchase. Its weapons also need a serious nerf in range as well as AP.

...sigh.. "Nerf all the characteristics and increase points cost!"

That's how you shut down conversations, because no one will accept that.

Morkanaut should be better, all of orks should be better, we agree. The riptide is too good for what it costs in a general meta (not top v. top, or top v. bottom, but Tau v. all) But making it softer (easier to wound, ok that's fair), weaker (reducing ap,... not the AP "significantly" ap3 is ok), myopic (72", yes too far, 24" worth play testing? but that alone would dramatically shift it, as it will be tied up if not swept more often), AND more expensive? You've killed the conversation. Its better than the bottom rung codexes bad units, but its not even middling tier at 3 w 3+ 5/4++ 5+++ 24"s7 ap4 300 points that you are asking for.

So I said to nerf all the characteristics and increase the cost? I need to focus on my typing skills more because im pretty sure I said it needs to have reduced durability in regards to its saves, and that its weapon needs to be shorter range with a lesser AP. Going from Range 72 to Range 36 is a HUGE nerf and it would still be good. Going from AP2 to AP3 is a HUGE nerf but it would still be acceptable.

I think those above mentioned nerfs would be fine, no points increase needed.

Also I used the Morkanaut as an example not because im saying BUFF ORKS but because its about the closest thing I have to a Riptide in regards to size, weapons and points cost.

SemperMortis, have you seen the new campaign books? IIRC, the latest Angel's blade book have pretty amazing formations that makes BA really do what they do best that would give tau commanders a pause.

And if you are talking about nerfs, we should nerf the drop pods, because at 35 points, its too tough to take down for something that is objective secured, come in reserves first turn, no mishap unless it falls out the table, and gives cover saves to the marines inside it. There are many other units that needs to be nerfed also but that just opens a whole can of worms.

The riptide in fluff was able to dish out damage from far to take over imperium strongholds while holding their own when artillery strikes. It was GW's plan to push the models I would agree, but saying its an end all just makes no sense. There are some armies out there which have an advantage over a riptide wing actually.

And to be honest, playing a small game using multiple riptides is just bad sport, especially in more casual games. That I would agree.

And in the fluff a single Baneblade makes entire armies gak their keks and run, and can take on entire tank regiments and win, but.....

**Retrogamer0001**

Martel732 wrote:
Ushtarador wrote:
Yeah, but the competitive loadout is SMS, because they are better in almost every situation.

I'm saying you'd lose it, too. Most players when confronted with BA scenarios assume the standard marine solutions apply. They don't.

I play my BA against Tau rather regularly, and it's not so bad of a matchup. We don't play hyper-competitively, so e.g. I don't see riptide wings (which are, as we have established multiple times, a separate issues), but I have no problem taking on 2 riptides.
I am also very confident that I could beat any Tau list with BA if I get double the points (especially because I play both armies), you are seriously misjudging this.

Am I somehow missing the part where BA get literally none of the things that make vanilla marines good? And Tau have an answer for every BA unit?

And you're not taking grav cannons why? BA have access to these, and should use them, especially against Riptides. A Riptide that is opting to use the 3++ is a Riptide not nova-charging a HBC, which makes the weapon far less effective.

**Martel732**

Grav devs aren't good. Skyhammer devs are good, but not vs Tau. The only grav cannons good vs Tau are in an invis centstar because all other grav cannons are dead grav cannons.

"e latest Angel's blade book have pretty amazing formations that makes BA really do what they do best that would give tau commanders a pause. "

I wish this were true. Instead, it's a whole book hard-countered by interceptor.

**Insectum7**

Martel732 wrote:
Grav devs aren't good.

It boggles the mind that you think this.

**bleak**

@Master of Ordinance, what makes you think it can't?

@Martel, wait, how can they be hard countered by interceptor when they have feel no pain? And if they have no feel no pain, why are so many people complaining about how tough they are?

If you plan to fight a tau player, tell him or her to bring a take all comers list. Tau is especially strong when they have the choice to tailor their list, but when they are choosing their upgrades to take all comers, it starts to become evident that they cannot do everything. And even if they do, they aren't especially good at it, even a riptide.

**_ghost_**

Unless you play BA against Tau. then therefore you are doomed. your dice will fail you every time. the opponent hat a un-breaking chain of lucky dice rolls and from time to time the table itself starts to devour your precious BA and vomits out a new or several Riptides. ( during a ongoing battle of course)

**carldooley**

_ghost_ wrote:
Unless you play BA against Tau. then therefore you are doomed. your dice will fail you every time. the opponent hat a un-breaking chain of lucky dice rolls and from time to time the table itself starts to devour your precious BA and vomits out a new or several Riptides. ( during a ongoing battle of course)

Keep in mind that happens to the Tau player at least as often as it happens to you.

I would love to know what kind of game was being played that granted without Number to your opponent's Riptide(s).

**_ghost_**

well this is called exaggerated SuperstitionHammer(eSH 40k) ... sometimes i feel a lot people here like to play this kind of 40k.

It works best when units are compared in a vacuum... or if someone changes the parameters at will so that the own argument is never proven wrong.

And you have to see. BA are always doomed to lose. even if you have twice or more points.. especialy vs Tau. Lets be honest. Firewarriors alone could table any BA army.

So you see eSH40k works great

**Martel732**

Insectum7 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Grav devs aren't good.

It boggles the mind that you think this.

How many non-skyhammer grav devs have you seen used?

"t starts to become evident that they cannot do everything"

Most people in my meta ignore flyers as their anti-air. That means all interceptor and no skyfire is all-comers. The HBC/IA debate is remotely relevant.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

carldooley wrote:
_ghost_ wrote:
Unless you play BA against Tau. then therefore you are doomed. your dice will fail you every time. the opponent hat a un-breaking chain of lucky dice rolls and from time to time the table itself starts to devour your precious BA and vomits out a new or several Riptides. ( during a ongoing battle of course)

Keep in mind that happens to the Tau player at least as often as it happens to you.

I would love to know what kind of game was being played that granted without Number to your opponent's Riptide(s).

Another feature of the Tau is that they are often rolling so many shooting dice it's rare for them to roll anomalously.

**jade_angel**

Martel732 wrote:

<snippity>
Another feature of the Tau is that they are often rolling so many shooting dice it's rare for them to roll anomalously.

You clearly haven't seen my luck...

I'm speaking tongue in cheek, of course, but some people do seem to have cursed dice.

**EnTyme**

Martel732 wrote:

Most people in my meta ignore flyers as their anti-air. That means all interceptor and no skyfire is all-comers. The HBC/IA debate is remotely relevant.

So why aren't you bringing 3-4 Storm Ravens with assault cannons packed with Death Company to every match?

**Insectum7**

Martel732 wrote:

How many non-skyhammer grav devs have you seen used?

I use them every time I bring my competitive build to the table.

If I'm not going competitive, then I don't bring them, because they are really rude to people unprepared for them. They're that good, even without Skyhammer and all that jazz.

**Martel732**

It's a unit that can only fire 24" and that's when it stands still. How is that rude? I've never had an issue with non-skyhammer grav devs. I think they're actually kinda crappy for what they cost. Without invisibility, even grav cents are kinda chumps. T5 2+ W2? That squad is crippled after a few plasma guns hit it. Or a single vindicator round.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

EnTyme wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

Most people in my meta ignore flyers as their anti-air. That means all interceptor and no skyfire is all-comers. The HBC/IA debate is remotely relevant.

So why aren't you bringing 3-4 Storm Ravens with assault cannons packed with Death Company to every match?

Storm ravens are bad for starters. Having that much of your list reserved is also not good. Additionally, death from the skies makes this strategy completely foolhardy, and there is the chance those become the actual rules in 8th. So there's lots of reasons to not use this as a general list.

**Yoyoyo**

If units like Grav Cents were as strong as Riptides without enablers like psychic buffs, they'd be incredibly obnoxious once powered-up. Armies like Necrons and Tau have no psychic potential.

So that's a problematic point to make regarding competitive balance, because psychic powers are a thing. Looking at individual aspects of how armies function in isolation, isn't how things necessarily play out on the tabletop.

**master of ordinance**

bleak wrote:
@Master of Ordinance, what makes you think it can't?.

What makes me think what cant? Please use the quote function, or at least reference the post or sub-topic when you ask me something.

**Martel732**

Yoyoyo wrote:
If units like Grav Cents were as strong as Riptides without enablers like psychic buffs, they'd be incredibly obnoxious once powered-up. Armies like Necrons and Tau have no psychic potential.

So that's a problematic point to make regarding competitive balance, because psychic powers are a thing. Looking at individual aspects of how armies function in isolation, isn't how things necessarily play out on the tabletop.

I'm not asking for them to be as strong as Riptides. I'm just saying that without psychic buffs, they are basically chumps.

**Kanluwen**

Yoyoyo wrote:
If units like Grav Cents were as strong as Riptides without enablers like psychic buffs, they'd be incredibly obnoxious once powered-up. Armies like Necrons and Tau have no psychic potential.

So that's a problematic point to make regarding competitive balance, because psychic powers are a thing. Looking at individual aspects of how armies function in isolation, isn't how things necessarily play out on the tabletop.

Psychic Powers are a thing, but as I've mentioned elsewhere, there's still something that can be done by armies or players whose lists are without Psykers.

You still obtain a number of dice for denying Psyker powers whether it is your turn or not or if you have Psykers or not. You just don't get as many if you do not have Psykers.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Insectum7 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

How many non-skyhammer grav devs have you seen used?

I use them every time I bring my competitive build to the table.

If I'm not going competitive, then I don't bring them, because they are really rude to people unprepared for them. They're that good, even without Skyhammer and all that jazz.

They also pay for that level of being good.

**Insectum7**

Martel732 wrote:
It's a unit that can only fire 24" and that's when it stands still. How is that rude? I've never had an issue with non-skyhammer grav devs. I think they're actually kinda crappy for what they cost.

Deployed via Pod and with proper support they do wonders. They're the replacement for my Sternguard from 6th, who costed even more.

If you were really concerned about damage output, you could always attach a Cataphractii Captain and make them SnP. Personally I don't bother.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Ah yes, a Drop Pod so your 49 point marines shoot 3 times at 12". Super powerful stuff there.

**Insectum7**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ah yes, a Drop Pod so your 49 point marines shoot 3 times at 12". Super powerful stuff there.

Averaged to 28 ppm in a ten man squad, and requiring my opponent to get through some ablative wounds before affecting damage output. 12 shots at 12" is the first turn, if they're still around its 20 shots at 24".

At the end of the day you can poo poo them all you like, but they help me kill Riptides.

This thread is ostensibly about Riptides, right?

**Martel732**

If they even get to shoot in the first place you mean. Non-relentless grav devs aren't getting you anywhere vs riptides. They're a ggod way to waste points, though.

Also, ba don't get cataphract armor.

**Ushtarador**

Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ah yes, a Drop Pod so your 49 point marines shoot 3 times at 12". Super powerful stuff there.

Averaged to 28 ppm in a ten man squad, and requiring my opponent to get through some ablative wounds before affecting damage output. 12 shots at 12" is the first turn, if they're still around its 20 shots at 24".

At the end of the day you can poo poo them all you like, but they help me kill Riptides.

This thread is ostensibly about Riptides, right?

You forgot that your drop pod devastators will be pie-plated to death by the 5 riptides, while your Furiosos get blown up by the other 5. Or something like that.

I feel Martel will only be happy when he can beat Tau with a T1 alpha strike without losing a single model.

Having that much of your list reserved is also not good.

Another blanket statement. I have won tournaments with lists built around heavy turn 2 strikes. Of course it won't work if half of your army is standing in the open turn 1, ready to be picked off, you need to put thought into list building.

**Martel732**

I'll settle for having models left on turn 4. The denial runs so deep with so many tau players.

Go ahead. Buy four stormravens and then weep when dfts becomes the actual rules in 8th. The reserve penalties and lack of skyfire will kill that list.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ah yes, a Drop Pod so your 49 point marines shoot 3 times at 12". Super powerful stuff there.

Averaged to 28 ppm in a ten man squad, and requiring my opponent to get through some ablative wounds before affecting damage output. 12 shots at 12" is the first turn, if they're still around its 20 shots at 24".

At the end of the day you can poo poo them all you like, but they help me kill Riptides.

This thread is ostensibly about Riptides, right?

Oh silly me. That's a great idea. If there's one thing Tau struggle with, it is killing MEQ at rapid fire range. Those 28 point models will last at least 3 turns with that tactic!

**Ushtarador**

I'll settle for having models left on turn 4. The denial runs so deep with so many tau players.

No, the real problem is your inability to come up with something else than foot-slogging tacticals and piecemeal reserves. Projecting upcoming changes in 8th to explain your inability to beat Tau now doesn't make it better.

**Martel732**

Grav devs don't even survive vs ba, one of the worst shooting lists in the game.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ushtarador wrote:
I'll settle for having models left on turn 4. The denial runs so deep with so many tau players.

No, the real problem is your inability to come up with something else than foot-slogging tacticals and piecemeal reserves. Projecting upcoming changes in 8th to explain your inability to beat Tau now doesn't make it better.

You really think anyone uses footslogging tacticals anymore?

You can't use stormraven heavy lists vs the field. It doesn't work and i don't list tailor.

**pumaman1**

Martel732 wrote:
I'll settle for having models left on turn 4. The denial runs so deep with so many tau players.

Go ahead. Buy four stormravens and then weep when dfts becomes the actual rules in 8th. The reserve penalties and lack of skyfire will kill that list.

To be fair, Ushtarador seems to be pointedly hitting a common theme in this thread. Its your army versus infinite points and units of Tau.. 10 riptides to a field never scattering, with a HUGE army of support broadsides, markerlights from nowhere etc always available to back up and get 150 hits on overwatch... You, Martel, are probably less guilty than others, but 2000 points in riptides isn't realistic. And us tau players are basically sick of the assumption of always best case scenario for our riptides, always getting everything off, always have bs30 ignore cover shred rending instant death overwatch.. . At this point maybe we need to define a points level and a realistic army being fielded, or provide a baseline army-list to have the conversation around.