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Martel if you exclude vehicles because they are usually scrap against Tau, if you exclude Droppods and such because ot interceptor.. what else is there left in your Dex?

You don't need 2000 pts of riptides. Three is more than most 2000 pt lists can handle. Because immortality is really good.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Oh silly me. That's a great idea. If there's one thing Tau struggle with, it is killing MEQ at rapid fire range. Those 28 point models will last at least 3 turns with that tactic!

You can be as glib as you like, but I've got a pretty good record against Tau and their Riptide Formation using Drop Dev Gravs. Not to mention their capability against Wraithknights. It's going to be difficult to convince me that the unit that's been effective for me is bad.

Sure they take a ton of fire, every unit takes a ton of fire against Tau. But not many units have so many 2+ re-roll to wound, AP 2 shots against Riptides. Get them up there, soak some interceptor, do some damage.

Because immortality is really good.

This meme got old around 15 pages ago, give it a break.

Ushtarador wrote:

You forgot that your drop pod devastators will be pie-plated to death by the 5 riptides, while your Furiosos get blown up by the other 5. Or something like that.

Ohhh, theory-hammer, where there is no terrain and LOS to all.

Or deploy your models around his models, then he can't place the pie-plate. Anywhere he can put the template will still have a good chance to blast himself.

I don't play BA, so I wouldn't be using Furiosos.

Martel732 wrote:
Grav devs don't even survive vs ba, one of the worst shooting lists in the game.

It's not about surviving, it's about performing their given task.

Ushtarador wrote:

Because immortality is really good.

This meme got old around 15 pages ago, give it a break.

Not until they change the rules to the Riptide or make it way more expensive for its insane durability.

"It's not about surviving, it's about performing their given task."

They don't do that much damage, either. I can beat skyhammer lists about half the time with frickin BA. You can't tell me that Tau even blink at drop grav devs.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Oh silly me. That's a great idea. If there's one thing Tau struggle with, it is killing MEQ at rapid fire range. Those 28 point models will last at least 3 turns with that tactic!

You can be as glib as you like, but I've got a pretty good record against Tau and their Riptide Formation using Drop Dev Gravs. Not to mention their capability against Wraithknights. It's going to be difficult to convince me that the unit that's been effective for me is bad.

Sure they take a ton of fire, every unit takes a ton of fire against Tau. But not many units have so many 2+ re-roll to wound, AP 2 shots against Riptides. Get them up there, soak some interceptor, do some damage.

I literally just did the math. As long as the Riptide has FNP, even without the 3++ power, 10 Devastators with 4 Grav Cannons out of a Pod statistically fail to kill it.

You can have all the anecdotal events you want, but bring that to an actual tournament and see how far you go.

And in the meantime im just sat here wishing that my Guard actually had something like droppods in the first place.

 master of ordinance wrote:
And in the meantime im just sat here wishing that my Guard actually had something like droppods in the first place.

Valkyries/vendettas and grav-chute insertion? Oh you mean good? sorry, not until IG are first codex for 8th ed and get ork nerf treatment.

 master of ordinance wrote:
And in the meantime im just sat here wishing that my Guard actually had something like droppods in the first place.

Well D99 and Scions exist for deep striking purposes. Scions need a huge reworking though.

Don't know much of D99 so I cannot tell you if they're effective.

 master of ordinance wrote:
And in the meantime im just sat here wishing that my Guard actually had something like droppods in the first place.

On the other hand, the Riptide pie plates mean a lot less to guard inherently.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Ushtarador wrote:

You forgot that your drop pod devastators will be pie-plated to death by the 5 riptides, while your Furiosos get blown up by the other 5. Or something like that.

Ohhh, theory-hammer, where there is no terrain and LOS to all.

Or deploy your models around his models, then he can't place the pie-plate. Anywhere he can put the template will still have a good chance to blast himself.

I don't play BA, so I wouldn't be using Furiosos.

Martel732 wrote:
Grav devs don't even survive vs ba, one of the worst shooting lists in the game.

It's not about surviving, it's about performing their given task.

So your answer to Riptides is a Devestator squad filled with Grav Cannons. So lets do the math on that. Drop ship +10 Dev Marines including 4 Grav Cannons with Amps = 315pts. You then deepstrike them within 12in of a Riptide (hit or miss, Terrain and army placement determine if this can be done and whether or not it will scatter to far away.) For arguments sake lets say it lands exactly where it is supposed to go. 12 shots at BS4 = 8 hits. With a 2+ to wound with rerolls lets say 8 wounds. Against a 5++ and a 5+++ that is 4wounds on average. If the Riptide has a 3++ it goes down to about 2 wounds on average. That leaves a 315pt SM unit exposed to enemy fire for the entire next turn.

Evidently these Tau players always have that math break against them. Somehow.

Signum. So more like 13 hits.

By using math I showed you that my xxx points unit does not manage to destroy your xxx points unit in 1 turn. I can't win.

Because that's how warhammer works, either you kill your opponent's army in 1 turn or you lose. Oh my :/

Ushtarador wrote:
By using math I showed you that my xxx points unit does not manage to destroy your xxx points unit in 1 turn. I can't win.

Because that's how warhammer works, either you kill your opponent's army in 1 turn or you lose. Oh my :/

.... Sorta'? Besides an invisible super-friends star, mostly yes. Playing intentional de-optimized lists/fluffy lists against friendly opponents doing the same actually brings the game back into a more even balance/not determined by turn 2 whomever goes first. But so many units wield so powerful of weapons across the board, you get 1 shot to use your best unit against theirs, and if you fail, they will do the same back and if they kill yours, you are "Short On Luck"

Ushtarador wrote:
By using math I showed you that my xxx points unit does not manage to destroy your xxx points unit in 1 turn. I can't win.

Because that's how warhammer works, either you kill your opponent's army in 1 turn or you lose. Oh my :/

To be fair, the tau get pretty damn close sometimes. How many times can I afford to let an ion accelerator fire? The best answer is zero, but that's not realistic because of interceptor.

The Riptide is an absolute travesty when you compare to how many IKs my BA have oneshotted turn 1 from deep strike. IKs that are way more expensive, I might add.

Don't forget I have to kill all the HYMP, too, or my army also disintegrates.

"either you kill your opponent's army in 1 turn or you lose. Oh my :/"

This is not true against most lists, but against Tau, you really need to cause catastrophic damage quickly to avoid being tabled. I can take my time more with Necrons or DA.

SemperMortis wrote:

So your answer to Riptides is a Devestator squad filled with Grav Cannons. So lets do the math on that. Drop ship +10 Dev Marines including 4 Grav Cannons with Amps = 315pts. You then deepstrike them within 12in of a Riptide (hit or miss, Terrain and army placement determine if this can be done and whether or not it will scatter to far away.) For arguments sake lets say it lands exactly where it is supposed to go. 12 shots at BS4 = 8 hits. With a 2+ to wound with rerolls lets say 8 wounds. Against a 5++ and a 5+++ that is 4wounds on average. If the Riptide has a 3++ it goes down to about 2 wounds on average. That leaves a 315pt SM unit exposed to enemy fire for the entire next turn.

Gee golly, I sure guess you're right. All these things that have been working for me must not really work then.

Ushtarador wrote:
By using math I showed you that my xxx points unit does not manage to destroy your xxx points unit in 1 turn. I can't win.

Because that's how warhammer works, either you kill your opponent's army in 1 turn or you lose. Oh my :/

Yup. Exalted! It's a good thing that my entire army isn't only relying on a single unit to execute the entire battle plan.

To take on Riptides, Step 1: Hurt the Riptides while attempting to mitigate their response effectiveness.

Step 2: Continue hurting the Riptides while mitigating their response effectiveness.

Step 3: Same as above, muster everything you have to continue hurting the Riptides until they are dead, or victory is achieved.

You forgot the step where you run out of army because Tau.

Also, wounding a Riptide is just about the least effective thing you can do against Tau. The best I've done is ignoring the Riptides and trying to kill the mortal units, but I still ending up running out of models, despite leading in points by a pretty wide margin.

This is not true against most lists, but against Tau, you really need to cause catastrophic damage quickly to avoid being tabled

That's just the amazingly skewed perception people have against Tau - when in fact it's exactly the other way around. Tau is the army that needs to deal enough damage during the first 2 turns, because the army gets significantly less effective when parts are killed off.
Especially vs marines, if a Tau hasn't killed half the army by turn 2 he is generally gonna lose. It will always feel like losing during the first 2 turns, but a tau army crumbles incredibly fast if taken on correctly.

Ushtarador wrote:

That's just the amazingly skewed perception people have against Tau - when in fact it's exactly the other way around. Tau is the army that needs to deal enough damage during the first 2 turns, because the army gets significantly less effective when parts are killed off.
Especially vs marines, if a Tau hasn't killed half the army by turn 2 he is generally gonna lose. It will always feel like losing during the first 2 turns, but a tau army crumbles incredibly fast if taken on correctly.

I agree big time. If you can manage to get there and start tying stuff up in CC and taking out support units you can start to peel away their effectiveness pretty nicely.

But its not something that's easy to half-***, you basically gotta just get up in there with everything you have.

 Insectum7 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

So your answer to Riptides is a Devestator squad filled with Grav Cannons. So lets do the math on that. Drop ship +10 Dev Marines including 4 Grav Cannons with Amps = 315pts. You then deepstrike them within 12in of a Riptide (hit or miss, Terrain and army placement determine if this can be done and whether or not it will scatter to far away.) For arguments sake lets say it lands exactly where it is supposed to go. 12 shots at BS4 = 8 hits. With a 2+ to wound with rerolls lets say 8 wounds. Against a 5++ and a 5+++ that is 4wounds on average. If the Riptide has a 3++ it goes down to about 2 wounds on average. That leaves a 315pt SM unit exposed to enemy fire for the entire next turn.

Gee golly, I sure guess you're right. All these things that have been working for me must not really work then.

Ushtarador wrote:
By using math I showed you that my xxx points unit does not manage to destroy your xxx points unit in 1 turn. I can't win.

Because that's how warhammer works, either you kill your opponent's army in 1 turn or you lose. Oh my :/

Yup. Exalted! It's a good thing that my entire army isn't only relying on a single unit to execute the entire battle plan.

To take on Riptides, Step 1: Hurt the Riptides while attempting to mitigate their response effectiveness.

Step 2: Continue hurting the Riptides while mitigating their response effectiveness.

Step 3: Same as above, muster everything you have to continue hurting the Riptides until they are dead, or victory is achieved.

You are right. Your handful of games are not anecdotal at all. Statistically you are unlikely to kill a riptide with a single round of shooting from a Dev squad armed with Grav cannons.


Couple things.
1: I don't play SMs I play Orks, I have zero answers to a riptide.
2: I never said you have to kill your opponents ENTIRE ARMY TURN 1. What I did point out was that your own example of how you kill a Riptide Turn 2 with your deep striking Dev squad won't work statistically.
3: Your plan literally doesn't work for MOST armies.

Ushtarador wrote:

This is not true against most lists, but against Tau, you really need to cause catastrophic damage quickly to avoid being tabled

That's just the amazingly skewed perception people have against Tau - when in fact it's exactly the other way around. Tau is the army that needs to deal enough damage during the first 2 turns, because the army gets significantly less effective when parts are killed off.
Especially vs marines, if a Tau hasn't killed half the army by turn 2 he is generally gonna lose. It will always feel like losing during the first 2 turns, but a tau army crumbles incredibly fast if taken on correctly.

Except it doesn't. Because Riptide is immortal and doesn't crumble at all. Short of a D-chainsaw to the face.

All assault lists are constantly pushed back by the casualty rules. The longer the game goes, the more and more ground is lost to Tau shooting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Ushtarador wrote:

That's just the amazingly skewed perception people have against Tau - when in fact it's exactly the other way around. Tau is the army that needs to deal enough damage during the first 2 turns, because the army gets significantly less effective when parts are killed off.
Especially vs marines, if a Tau hasn't killed half the army by turn 2 he is generally gonna lose. It will always feel like losing during the first 2 turns, but a tau army crumbles incredibly fast if taken on correctly.

I agree big time. If you can manage to get there and start tying stuff up in CC and taking out support units you can start to peel away their effectiveness pretty nicely.

But its not something that's easy to half-***, you basically gotta just get up in there with everything you have.

There is literally no list better at getting everything across the board than the BA. Except armies of pure bikers like DA. And it's still not nearly enough. Assaulting 50 fire warriors with one lone surviving marine isn't cutting it.

" I have zero answers to a riptide. "

You lose less per pieplate. That's your answer. Unfulfilling, but an answer.

" If you can manage to get there"

One of the biggest ifs in 40K. Also up there with catching Eldar jetbikes in CC.

Martel732 wrote:


There is literally no list better at getting everything across the board than the BA. Except armies of pure bikers like DA. And it's still not nearly enough. Assaulting 50 fire warriors with one lone surviving marine isn't cutting it.

Are you being hyperbolic here, or literal? because someone bringing 5 squads of nearly max size firewarriors is wasting a lot of points... and really makes baal preds and eradicator russes way more useful in force destruction. In most lists that is 500 points in non-obsec troops, and with your 2 riptide minimum thats over 900 points, with 410 wasted/de-optimized

 pumaman1 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


There is literally no list better at getting everything across the board than the BA. Except armies of pure bikers like DA. And it's still not nearly enough. Assaulting 50 fire warriors with one lone surviving marine isn't cutting it.

Are you being hyperbolic here, or literal? because someone bringing 5 squads of nearly max size firewarriors is wasting a lot of points... and really makes baal preds and eradicator russes way more useful in force destruction. In most lists that is 500 points in non-obsec troops, and with your 2 riptide minimum thats over 900 points, with 410 wasted/de-optimized

Yes, I'm being hyperbolic. But I've had my straggling survivors lose a ton of CCs to firewarriors. WS and init are both garbage stats. Tau aren't that bad at CC. And this is against furious charge marines.

The WS chart doesn't hurt Tau too much to be fair. You're incorrect about I4 not mattering against them specifically though.

You're hoping for a sweep? That assumes your single marine doesn't die at init 2. I stand by init being a garbage stat.

You.. lost to ws 2 I2 s3 ap- 1a ld7 stat line in CC?
but that's hitting you on 4/5's wounding on 5s 3+ saves against.. with a full squad that's 6 hits 2 wounds before saves....

A non-commander crisis suit is still hitting on 4/5's, wounding on 3's, ap -, so a squad of 3 will bring 6/7 attacks hit 3/4, wound 2/3 with full saves, i just don't understand where the good CC is coming from, outside of farisght, and a inordinately expensive commander build..

I've lost to it many times because I only get one or two marines into CC. The CC doesn't have to be good when you've killed 90% of the opponent by shooting. The Riptide is actually better at CC than almost anything in my codex, including my dreadnoughts.

Tau hit marines on 4's almost universally. Even vets and terminators don't get WS 5. Because reasons.

Riptides? i thought you were reffering to tons of firewarriors?!

Martel it is getting confusing.

eihter you are exaggerating by so many times it gets ridiculous or.. you are one of the most bad players that i have ever heard of.

in both ways... ts very exhausting talking with you about tau