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Orks have the weakest codex so its not really fair to compare them. But if you play, bring on a whole lot of boys with a nob with a powerclaw. Sure they will get shot to ribbons, but they will reach the tau lines turn 2. Even with overwatch, tau aren't that scary when you have already destroyed their markerlights. A riptide can kill 3 orks at best in CC, and that is if they are extremely lucky. The orks will do more and sweep the riptide. Also remember that enemy units can only ever overwatch ONCE. If you have 3-4 squad of orks with power klaw, you can then dictate which unit to destroy first.
29 boyz and a Nob with PK = 215pts about the same price as the Riptide.
Turn 1 orks lose 7ish boyz to the riptide, move 6 run 4 = 10 inches closer to the riptide
TUrn 2: Orks lose 6ish boyz to the riptide, move 6 run 3 = 9 inches closer to the riptide
Turn 3: Orks lose another 5ish boyz to the riptide, take a morale test, fail lose another 2 boyz, Call A Waaagh, move 6, run 4 and assault 7, lets say by a miracle they get the charge off. Riptide fires another round of over watch at BS3 because of nearby Pathfinders/Firewarriors/drones whatever. Kills another boy.
So boyz are now down to 8 boyz and a Nob. Riptide swings first kills 1 boy, 7 boyz swing back 28 attacks, 18ish hits 3 wounds against 2+ armor and 5+ FNP = ZERO Wounds. Nob swings with his 4 Attacks, hits with 3 wounds with all 3 and against a 3++ and 5+++ = 1 Wound. Drawn combat.
So from that point onward the riptide is useless because its going to get stuck in CC for the rest of the game but hey thats fine.
Also thats not taking into account the fact that the riptide IS FASTER THEN BOYZ so it can run away easily, its also not taking into account a number of other things like playing an actual game.
Just out of curiosity how exactly are the Orks killing all the markerlights? I am seriously asking because I have yet to find a way to do that effectively with orks.
That is a good question. Maybe even more orks in trukks perhaps? Depending on what kind of markerlights the tau player is using? If they are pathfinders, they squish pretty easily. If they are drones, well, they are with a commander, thus charging them makes alot of sense. Most of the markelight units have low Ld as well, so one dead model may change the course of the game. Also, like you said, its not taking into account a number of other things, like failed nova charges, missing the pie plates, and if there are other tau that can overwatch this unit, then that means there are another 3 to 4 units of orks that are unmolested charging into the riptide. But hey, at least now they successfully stopped a riptide from shooting for 3 other rounds, which means the orks are just as OP as the riptide, right?
Lets do a switch game sometime, next time your near me in CT lets play. Take whatever ork units you want, i'll roflstomp you with Tau so quick you won't even get to turn 3.
And if you don't?
EDIT: Please create a list with a trio of riptides and see how well it does.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/02 05:14:18
bleak wrote: Ok, let's just say we are playing a 1850 game. And your opponent brings a tau army with riptides. He might bring a riptide wing, which means he won't have enough points to bring a hunter contingent, which means, his riptides are only BS3 unless the riptides fire at the same unit as the previous riptide. So kill off the markerlights.
3 Riptides in formation can easily earn their points back by turn 2, 3 at worst against horde armies (who really struggle to kill the lights).
Between drones with certain equipment setups, pathfinders, and other options, I can't imagine losing all my marker lights by turn 2. Turn 3, maybe, Turn 4, yeah that happens a lot, but by then the tides are earning extra credit.
Please detail how a player should delete all the marker lights by turn 2. Keep in mind, a Riptide wing doesn't require a lot (I've honestly never used them to improve BS, just removes cover). I haven't had it happen against me save versus an eldar force that rolled hot one time.
You have never see how many times a riptide blast scatters away making the 200 point model waste a turn or 2. Also, if you bring marines, why not take the white scars artifact that ignores cover on your bikes with grav? Take a captain on a bike with them to soak up some damage and also a apothecary to give him feel no pain and as a ablative wound.
Bikes are very good against Tau. But in a competitive game, marines can bring Riptides down probably the easiest out of all the armies utilizing grav cents. Teleporting those in results in 2 dead tides.
I have also rarely seen the large blast marker scatter completely off, very rarely two turns in a row. You have not horrible odds of hitting directly, and usually the scatter is about 4". If you place it in the middle of the squad, it shouldn't scatter so far it misses everything, thanks to spacing. If they bunch up so a scatter does miss, you get more on a direct hit. For smaller stronger squads this is true, but most squads number 10 guys, or are bikes which are larger models.
Khorne daemonkin with 2 bloodthirsters also give tau some pause also, especially now that there can be renegade knights in a chaos army. This means that they have to wonder what to shoot at. The knight? The bloodthirsters? And they normally reach within 2 turns. I doubt the tau has enough firepower to take them all down, especially when the khorne hounds are also rushing forward. Oh and Kharne can destroy riptides easily, especially if they are a unit of riptides.
True enough.
No one is arguing that the Tide has NO counters. We've already listed the types of units they hate to see (Fast, Invul Saves, few units of MC, Grav). The problem is, when the list of units you hate to see is in itself broken, are you also broken? Tides might be the lowest man on the broken totem pole, but they still belong to that group. At least IMO.
Tau are also the least fun army to play against by a wide margin. I won't point to polls, but its certainly one of the reasons you see these threads instead of "Dang I hate TWC stars", even though those are arguably worse.
Orks have the weakest codex so its not really fair to compare them. But if you play, bring on a whole lot of boys with a nob with a powerclaw. Sure they will get shot to ribbons, but they will reach the tau lines turn 2. Even with overwatch, tau aren't that scary when you have already destroyed their markerlights. A riptide can kill 3 orks at best in CC, and that is if they are extremely lucky. The orks will do more and sweep the riptide. Also remember that enemy units can only ever overwatch ONCE. If you have 3-4 squad of orks with power klaw, you can then dictate which unit to destroy first.
Only orks that will reach cc by turn 2 are bikes, and they are very expensive. Also rely on cover saves, which are easy to deny for Tau. Target number one, and with 3 tides in a wing, there won't be any meaningful survivors.
Foot orks will take 3-4 turns, probably 4 since the orks will die in droves to FW when fired at from the front (1/2, 2/3 = 1/3. A squad of ten rapid firing will kill a little over 7, long range kills 3-4. In a trukk, this is nearly the whole squad, outside of a trukk they get a third round of shooting and will kill 13-17 boyz before combat with no support. That's half the squad of a large mob from ONE squad with no support).
Trukk orks can do it in 3 but Tau are very good at destroying Trukks with their guns, and don't often bring enough boyz.
Lastly, if you are playing against tau in a kill everything game, then you are definitely playing to your disadvantage. Tau are meant to destroy as many as they can in the first few turns before they get overwhelmed. And if you are playing with maelstrom, that makes them worse as they will struggle to cap points because, firstly, riptides are no objective secured, and secondly, shooting the devs may not be in the tau player's best interest, and therefore, they might live longer than you expect and do much more.
If someone ports in Grav, a unit that costs 315 points (1/6 of your army!) into my backline to wound my riptides, its hard to think of a better unit to fire at. They are marine stats but cost twice as much, and all those units are at rapid fire range.
Maybe a bike squad closing in if they are decked out for war, but my FW are most likely still firing at the grav devs, possibly some suits too.
Cents are better since they have better range and a better stat profile. You'll lose some, but not 400 points worth, and now you're up on attrition and have silenced a lot of the tides. One tide can be ignored, it's 3 in a wing that can punch a huge whole. If you do it turn 1, the tau player might not get to use his wing, costing him 4 pie plates right from the start. You've saved 1.5 squads of marines, maybe more, from one turn of shooting.
ELITES: Riptide Wing: 3x Riptide with EWO and Stim with SMS and Ion Accelerators
Crisis Suit: 2x Twin Fusion Blasters.
TROOPS: Strike Team 5x Firewarriors w/SMS Turret Strike Team 5x Firewarriors w/SMS Turret Strike Team 5x Firewarriors w/SMS Turret
FAST ATTACK: Pathfinder Team (5) Pathfinder Team (5) Pathfinder Team (4)
HEAVY SUPPORT: Broadsides (3) With TL Missile Pods and TLSMS and EWO, and 2 Shield Drones.
Attach the Commander to the Broadsides to boost there BS to 5 or to remove cover saves for those 15 S7 AP4 Range 36 Missiles which are already at BS3 and TL. Add in the 12 TL S5AP5 Missiles and that is a lot of dakka for a single unit to put out (Broadsides + Commander with 4 drones = 396pts)
Riptide wing starts out at BS4, Turn 1 the pathfinders light important stuff up and the Riptide wing makes it disappear.
Ohh and firewarriors, 15 firewarriors with S5 Range 30 rapid fire rifles and a SMS Turret which adds in another S5AP5 Ignores Cover/LOS range 30 missiles.
Battle Plan would be pretty simple and straight forward and require minimum skill/intelligence to beat most players. Since I have 3 Riptides and 3 Missile Sides with EWO I am not at all worried about deep striking units, I get a free shooting phase if you use them YAY. The Battle plan would be thus, Move backwards, fire, destroy target. Rinse and repeat until there aren't any targets left.
So, What would be your answer to that list, go ahead and list tailor to your hearts content using the Ork Codex.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/02 14:21:53
Errr, how is the commander boosting the BS of the broadsides while being attached to them? Markerdrones are not networked.
Also, why does the commander have 3 missile pods when they can only fire two?
As for how to beat that with Orks? Battlewagons. Use the wagons to form an AV14 wall to provide mobile LOS blocking cover for some big mobs of boys to keep them from getting whittled down by the Fire Warriors. They'll still take some casualties from the SMS but a lot less than from SMS+Pulse.
Hang back and use Lootas to take out the pathfinders using their superior range. If you want to get Pathfinders into range to remove cover then you will have to move, which would mean snap shots for your markerlights that turn and it could take two turns for your lights to get into range, which is two turns of basically no markerlight support. Once the pathfinders are dealt with any remaining Lootas should turn their fire onto the Broadside unit to either force saves on the suits or get rid of the shield drones.
You have two fusion suits in your whole army, which can be instagibbed by rokkits, so take a unit of tankbustas in one of the wagons to take 'em out and once they're gone the Tides will have to move away from the rest of the army in order to try and get onto the flanks. Once the Crisis suits are down the next priority for rokkits is the broadsides and commander as they are both T4 so can be doubled out by the S8. Just keep forcing saves against the broadsides whilst keeping AV14 towards them to render any return fire from them useless.
Riptides can only move 6" in the movement phase so are unlikely to get into a side arc of the wagon and still be able to fire that turn, giving you a turn to react to their movement. Even if they do get into the side, they either have 3 S7 shots or 1 S8/9 large blast to get through AV12, so needing 5s to glance and 6s to pen with the S7, 5s to pen with the S8 and 4s with the S9. So at best they have a 50% chance to pen the side armour and only get one shot to do that per turn and that relies on them using NOVA on the gun and then not having the gun get hot.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/11/02 15:16:17
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
ELITES:
Riptide Wing: 3x Riptide with EWO and Stim with SMS and Ion Accelerators
Crisis Suit: 2x Twin Fusion Blasters.
TROOPS:
Strike Team 5x Firewarriors w/SMS Turret
Strike Team 5x Firewarriors w/SMS Turret
Strike Team 5x Firewarriors w/SMS Turret
FAST ATTACK:
Pathfinder Team (5)
Pathfinder Team (5)
Pathfinder Team (4)
HEAVY SUPPORT:
Broadsides (3) With TL Missile Pods and TLSMS and EWO, and 2 Shield Drones.
Attach the Commander to the Broadsides to boost there BS to 5 or to remove cover saves for those 15 S7 AP4 Range 36 Missiles which are already at BS3 and TL. Add in the 12 TL S5AP5 Missiles and that is a lot of dakka for a single unit to put out (Broadsides + Commander with 4 drones = 396pts)
Riptide wing starts out at BS4, Turn 1 the pathfinders light important stuff up and the Riptide wing makes it disappear.
Ohh and firewarriors, 15 firewarriors with S5 Range 30 rapid fire rifles and a SMS Turret which adds in another S5AP5 Ignores Cover/LOS range 30 missiles.
Battle Plan would be pretty simple and straight forward and require minimum skill/intelligence to beat most players. Since I have 3 Riptides and 3 Missile Sides with EWO I am not at all worried about deep striking units, I get a free shooting phase if you use them YAY. The Battle plan would be thus, Move backwards, fire, destroy target. Rinse and repeat until there aren't any targets left.
So, What would be your answer to that list, go ahead and list tailor to your hearts content using the Ork Codex.
Commander has not point taking 3 missile pods when he can only ever fire 2.
drone controllers don't boost broadside BS, the signature system command and control node does, and only if he doesn't fire (which is why buff-manders have no guns)
If you deploy 1st, its going to be very easy to counter deploy so few units, with even a green-tide level boys blob with a mad doc for FNP, or mek boy with kustom force field
If you deploy 2nd, 2 sources of armor 14 are going to give you trouble, as you only have 1 pair of crisis suits with melta, and those are generally suicide units. and a few naked boy squads with trukks are going to pressure the rest of your army, because it can't stand to have even 1 primary damage unit (riptide or broadsides) be bogged down for 1 turn, or you lose most of your offensive power.
3 riptides in 1 unit is not a riptide wing, its a fireteam, which is bs4, but must all shoot at the same 1 unit, as you didnt take target locks
a riptide wing is not bs4 stock, its only bs4 if you shoot a 2nd riptide at the same unit, so still inefficient shooting against msu, and must use a 2nd set of markerlights to do any removes cover for the 2nd riptide, which means all 3 pathfinder squads are shooting the same unit, which is inefficient.
Your list is bad, would lose to msu double CAD of even orks in a non-kill points game.
Against this non-optimized list it is definitely possible for an Ork to have a good game, and even win (which is what this discussion is mostly about). For a casual game this will work quite well in fact.
It is far from an optimized tournament list, but nobody disputes that Orks would have a very hard time if it were perfected to hyper-competitive levels, that's another issue.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/02 14:52:11
Ushtarador wrote: Against this non-optimized list it is definitely possible for an Ork to have a good game, and even win (which is what this discussion is mostly about). For a casual game this will work quite well in fact.
It is far from an optimized tournament list, but nobody disputes that Orks would have a very hard time if it were perfected to hyper-competitive levels, that's another issue.
I agree, but it does highlight that taking 3 Riptides does not necessarily equal an auto win if the list lacks the required support elements to fill the few roles that the Riptide generally doesn't do (such as AV14 hunting).
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
A Town Called Malus wrote: Errr, how is the commander boosting the BS of the broadsides while being attached to them? Markerdrones are not networked.
Also, why does the commander have 3 missile pods when they can only fire two?
As for how to beat that with Orks? Battlewagons. Use the wagons to form an AV14 wall to provide mobile LOS blocking cover for some big mobs of boys. Pack the nastier units (meganobz for example) into the wagons to break the lines later
You have one fusion suit in your whole army, which can be instagibbed by rokkits, so take a unit of tankbustas in one of the wagons to take it out and once it is gone the Tides will have to move away from the rest of the army in order to try and get onto the flanks.
Riptides can only move 6" in the movement phase so are unlikely to get into a side arc of the wagon and still be able to fire that turn, giving you a turn to react to their movement.
As I said I am not a Tau player so forgive the minor mistakes. With that said, remove the extra missile from the Commander not a big deal and change the drones to Shield drones, tactic still works just fine
Ork Battlewagons are the answer you say? Well lets see. Fusion Crisis suits will on average FRAG one of those battlewagons on their turn, at AP1 and OT that means it will more then likely explode which means the occupants are 50% dead unless you used Meganobz which you suggested so lets run the list really quick
HQ: Warboss w/MA
ELITES: MegaNobz (3) w/Battlewagon Ram and 2 weapons MegaNobz (3) w/Battlewagon Ram and 2 weapons Tankbustas (6)
TROOPS: Boyz 19 with Nob/PK Boyz 19 with Nob/PK Boyz 19 with Nob/PK Boyz 12 with Nob/PK
HEAVY SUPPORT: Battlewagon w/Ram and 2 weapons
So how would that Tau List deal with this? Well, pretty simply actually. As much as you want to believe that Battlewagons block LOS they wont. SO that was a huge waste of time. The Riptides can still see the 63 Ork boyz/Nobz running behind so they can drop some pie plates on them with impunity from the back field. The Battlewagons DO have a pretty scary cargo so there is that but unfortunately you just wasted about 1/3rd of your list on big scary looking Battlewagons which don't do anything.
The Meganobz will get into assault more then likely, The Fusion Crisis suits will focus fire the Tank busta BW And they will ice it. 4 Melta shots with a couple of markerlights will hit 3 times and S8 +2D6 means on AVERAGE 3 pens. 3 Pens at +3 to explode means boom which also means 3 dead Tankbustas, which means morale test, which is a 50/50 and they don't benefit from any part of Mob Rule, they are probably running away. That means your going to have to detail either a unit of Meganobz or one of those boyz squads to killing those 2 crisis suits which probably used JSJ to run the hell away from the boyz . Those Broadsides which you forgot about now gets to pump 12 S7 shots into the side armor of at least one of the surviving Battlewagons at at least BS4. So thats 8 hits and 1/3rd chance to pen/glance means probably 1 pen and 1-2 glances. On that Pen there is a +1 because OT so its a 1/6 chance to explode and a 1/6 chance to be immobilized (which is almost as bad) and a 1/6 chance to not be able to move and snap shot the next turn and you have lost 2 Hullpoints on average.
So turn 1 you moved up the field with your army. The Riptides each fired 2 Large Blast weapons with Ignores cover (Markerlights) onto your boyz and fragged at least 5 with each large blast template so 20-30 are probably dead, at least 2 morale checks on them, 1 will fail which is another D6 dead boyz.
So before you even do anything to the Tau player with your list you have lost a BW, your Tankbustas are either running away or you have 3 left (Probably pinned) and those Ork boyz you were counting on have been gutted pretty nicely by a number of large blast templates and another battlewagon has been smacked around.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/02 15:14:39
How are your crisis suits getting within 9" of the battlewagons in the first turn?
I never mentioned moving up. My plan is to hang back in my deployment area, use the wagons to keep units alive whilst the Lootas outrange everything in your army but the Riptides IA. If you want to get rid of cover from my units, your markerlights have to move into the range of my guns.
If your crisis suits want to get into range of my wagons they either have to drop in or move up the board. You have nothing to prevent them from scattering and are aiming to land within 9" of the wagons which is pretty risky as if you scatter away then your suits will be sat in the open without being in melta range, which drastically reduces your chance for an instant kill. If you try to move up the board then you will have to move into range of my guns and lone crisis suits are very squishy.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/02 15:30:05
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
A Town Called Malus wrote: How are your crisis suits getting within 9" of the battlewagons in the first turn?
In case you have never played an Ork player, we deploy ON THE LINE! why? because we need to get into CC as quick as possible So when those battlewagons move forward all the crisis suits have to do is go forward 6, fire off some fusion fun at range 9 or less and poof you just ruined someones day. And yes those battlewagons will be going 12 on their turn because you apparently want a horde of boyz to use them as cover and on average boyz will move and run 9-10inches which means those BWs need to move at least that to get out of the way.
Conversely if you want the Ork player to go even slower, the Battlewagons could just move 6 and give the Tau player an entire extra round of shooting...whichever floats your boat.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/02 15:25:46
A Town Called Malus wrote: How are your crisis suits getting within 9" of the battlewagons in the first turn?
In case you have never played an Ork player, we deploy ON THE LINE! why? because we need to get into CC as quick as possible So when those battlewagons move forward all the crisis suits have to do is go forward 6, fire off some fusion fun at range 9 or less and poof you just ruined someones day. And yes those battlewagons will be going 12 on their turn because you apparently want a horde of boyz to use them as cover and on average boyz will move and run 9-10inches which means those BWs need to move at least that to get out of the way.
Conversely if you want the Ork player to go even slower, the Battlewagons could just move 6 and give the Tau player an entire extra round of shooting...whichever floats your boat.
You appear to be completely ignoring anything resembling tactics and assuming that the Ork player will just move straight forward into range when they have access to guns which are longer range. Of course the Tau will win if the Orks charge blindly into the range of all of the Tau firepower, hence why I am not doing that until the key Tau units (in this case the pathfinders) have been removed.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/02 15:36:31
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
A Town Called Malus wrote: How are your crisis suits getting within 9" of the battlewagons in the first turn?
In case you have never played an Ork player, we deploy ON THE LINE! why? because we need to get into CC as quick as possible So when those battlewagons move forward all the crisis suits have to do is go forward 6, fire off some fusion fun at range 9 or less and poof you just ruined someones day. And yes those battlewagons will be going 12 on their turn because you apparently want a horde of boyz to use them as cover and on average boyz will move and run 9-10inches which means those BWs need to move at least that to get out of the way.
Conversely if you want the Ork player to go even slower, the Battlewagons could just move 6 and give the Tau player an entire extra round of shooting...whichever floats your boat.
You appear to be completely ignoring anything resembling tactics and assuming that the Ork player will just move straight forward into range when they have access to guns which are longer range. Of course the Tau will win if the Orks charge blindly into the range of all of the Tau firepower, hence why I am not doing that until the key Tau units (in this case the pathfinders) have been removed.
LMAO! You were the one that said those units mentioned above would beat the Tau list i provided, not me.
Fine, I put in 10 minutes to build a Tau list (albeit with some minor mistakes because I don't play Tau) Go take 10 minutes and build an Ork list with whatever you like in it. I guarantee you will still lose.
Obviously Orks can beat Riptide lists..and notice how the Ork player isn't crying about the Riptide? Then wins game? Coincidence?
You seem to think that anecdotal evidence works now...especially when its QUIRK of all people. The guy thought Lootas had 2 wounds until a couple months ago. I have previously watched this and had to stop watching all his newer Batreps because he gets so many rules wrong it hurts my brain.
So...the reason the tau player gets an easy fusion shot, is that you are on autopilot on "RUSH B" like a CS:GP player, and can't employ the slightest level of secario awareness, especially considering the fusions can't possibly be everywhere at once, and especially not while still being safe (a crisis suit is a 2-wound marine, not exactly a tank.)
Yaknow, outright saying "I am a bad player" would be quicker than that either rant.
If your solution to every single situation, in every game, regardless of your opponent, the mission, the table or even your own list(!), you might simply not be cut out for strategy games.
You are a roleplayer. you want to WAAGH and have a blast-and there is nothing wrong with that additude.
But you can't reasonably expect the game to bend backwards so that doing nonsense for funsies will be competitive against a serious well-though well-preformed strategy and tactics.
Even "simple" FPS games don't work like that. demanding it from a strategy game is outright silly.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
BoomWolf wrote: So...the reason the tau player gets an easy fusion shot, is that you are on autopilot on "RUSH B" like a CS:GP player, and can't employ the slightest level of secario awareness, especially considering the fusions can't possibly be everywhere at once, and especially not while still being safe (a crisis suit is a 2-wound marine, not exactly a tank.)
Yaknow, outright saying "I am a bad player" would be quicker than that either rant.
If your solution to every single situation, in every game, regardless of your opponent, the mission, the table or even your own list(!), you might simply not be cut out for strategy games.
You are a roleplayer. you want to WAAGH and have a blast-and there is nothing wrong with that additude.
But you can't reasonably expect the game to bend backwards so that doing nonsense for funsies will be competitive against a serious well-though well-preformed strategy and tactics.
Even "simple" FPS games don't work like that. demanding it from a strategy game is outright silly.
Well since you seem to love being condescending I challenge you to the exact same contest. Build an Ork list that will Beat the above mentioned Tau list.
Also as a secondary note: What tactics would you like to use instead of "Get choppy units into choppy range". If you say something as slowed as "USE COVER! I will just ignore you for a plethora of reasons. #1 being Battlewagons are HUGE vehicles and its hard to get cover to begin with, and with that many Markerlights on the table it wouldn't take much for the Tau player to get IGNORES COVER on anything he wants.
#2 if your idea of strategy is to hide behind buildings....well no kidding, who would have thought about that!!!!
If you want to actually play the game in question then by all means come on over with that Tau list and you can use any of my ork models you want. I guarantee the results before the game even starts.
A part of my games against Tau is getting them to commit fusion suits. If they have any. I haven't yet gotten a game with them where they left them at home and I had my IK. I imagine I could win that matchup perhaps.
LMAO! You were the one that said those units mentioned above would beat the Tau list i provided, not me.
Fine, I put in 10 minutes to build a Tau list (albeit with some minor mistakes because I don't play Tau) Go take 10 minutes and build an Ork list with whatever you like in it. I guarantee you will still lose.
Except your list had zero Lootas, a unit which I pretty majorly included in my projected list due its 48" range guns which outrange everything but the IA in your list. You made your own Ork list then claimed you could beat it when it behaved in the complete opposite way to what I described.
BoomWolf wrote: So...the reason the tau player gets an easy fusion shot, is that you are on autopilot on "RUSH B" like a CS:GP player, and can't employ the slightest level of secario awareness, especially considering the fusions can't possibly be everywhere at once, and especially not while still being safe (a crisis suit is a 2-wound marine, not exactly a tank.)
Yaknow, outright saying "I am a bad player" would be quicker than that either rant. If your solution to every single situation, in every game, regardless of your opponent, the mission, the table or even your own list(!), you might simply not be cut out for strategy games. You are a roleplayer. you want to WAAGH and have a blast-and there is nothing wrong with that additude. But you can't reasonably expect the game to bend backwards so that doing nonsense for funsies will be competitive against a serious well-though well-preformed strategy and tactics. Even "simple" FPS games don't work like that. demanding it from a strategy game is outright silly.
Well since you seem to love being condescending I challenge you to the exact same contest. Build an Ork list that will Beat the above mentioned Tau list.
Also as a secondary note: What tactics would you like to use instead of "Get choppy units into choppy range". If you say something as slowed as "USE COVER! I will just ignore you for a plethora of reasons. #1 being Battlewagons are HUGE vehicles and its hard to get cover to begin with, and with that many Markerlights on the table it wouldn't take much for the Tau player to get IGNORES COVER on anything he wants.
#2 if your idea of strategy is to hide behind buildings....well no kidding, who would have thought about that!!!!
If you want to actually play the game in question then by all means come on over with that Tau list and you can use any of my ork models you want. I guarantee the results before the game even starts.
You have three units of markerlights. Each unit will only get 2 hits per turn on average. So you can remove cover for three of your units a turn and that's it. Also, the Battlewagons don't need cover against your list as if you box up (which you will to make sure you can use supporting fire) they can just keep their AV14 front to all of your guns and sit back at range plinking away at you whilst you can do nothing to hurt them other than move 2 solo crisis suits forward in the hope of getting into melta range or drop a single large blast which can either only glance or, if you use NOVA, pen on a 6.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2016/11/02 16:13:36
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Except your list had zero Lootas, a unit which I pretty majorly included in my projected list due its 48" range guns which outrange everything but the IA in your list. You made your own Ork list then claimed you could beat it when it behaved in the complete opposite way to what I described.
LMAO you edited your list 4 times and the last one was very recently. So lets just say I didn't see you say lootas
Fine lets throw in some lootas. 5 lootas will put out on average 10 shots with about 3 hitting each turn. those will wound on 2s but your pathfinders (unless stupid) are in cover meaning 4+ save. So 1-2 dead pathfinders a turn, if its 1 no morale check if 2 then a 50/50 so to guarantee you a morale check your going to need at least 6 Lootas.
Again, I dont know how you want to do this because your not putting in the effort of making an actual list like I have suggested. So either make the list or keep making up new reasons why Tau aren't OP as hell with riptides
You have three units of markerlights. Each unit will only get 2 hits per turn on average. So you can remove cover for three of your units a turn. Also, the Battlewagons don't need cover against your list as if you box up (which you will to make sure you can use supporting fire) they can just keep their AV14 front to all of your guns and sit back at range plinking away at you whilst you can do nothing to hurt them other than move 2 solo crisis suits forward in the hope of getting into melta range.
SO make a giant box out of AV 14 vehicles with tiny fronts and gigantic sides.....that will work
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/02 16:13:57
Assume you get first turn. That's 80 boys that take over the whole table and 9 warbikers that are able to hold any unit except the riptides in close combat in Turn 2. Lots of lootas that can move and shoot thanks to the mega armor, get 4+ cover behind the defense line and shoot further than the marker lights. Also, anything not AP2 can easily be tanked by the waagbosses in front. The pathfinders will be dead turn 1 unless they are out of LoS, in which case they will not be able to remove your cover in the Tau's turn.
Once the 3 riptides get stuck in Boyz they will never get out, and even if they shoot they kill a unit of 50 points at most. Actually, it is almost impossible for them to make their points back even if they shoot every turn.
Replacing the bikes with grot artillery might also work well, it is cheap and very resilient.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/11/02 16:32:16
SO make a giant box out of AV 14 vehicles with tiny fronts and gigantic sides.....that will work
It works at 36-48 ", because your riptides are all within 6" of each other, and your broadsides with 2" and are not relentless.
And eventually they will have to move forward or just give up the game to the Tau player. And once they come forward and either go towards the Riptides who are taking up over 22+ Inches of the table (6' of each other and the base are something like 5's long) or towards the Broadside who are taking up at least 10' they will expose AV12 to massive amounts of S7 shooting or in the case of the riptides S9 pie plates (which have a 1/3rd chance to glance/pen an AV 14 vehicle). In fact boxing them up just makes them a bigger target for those S9 Pie Plates. If you can get lucky and hit 3 with 1 pieplate you have a good chance of stripping some HPs (Ordinance rolls 2D6 and takes highest) So actually that is a pretty crappy plan, opens up more Wagons to destruction by S9 ordinance
Assume you get first turn. That's 80 boys that take over the whole table and 9 warbikers that are able to hold any unit except the riptides in close combat in Turn 2. Lots of lootas that can move and shoot thanks to the mega armor, get 4+ cover behind the defense line and shoot further than the marker lights. Also, anything not AP2 can easily be tanked by the waagbosses in front. The pathfinders will be dead turn 1 unless they are out of LoS, in which case they will not be able to remove your cover in the Tau's turn. Once the 3 riptides get stuck in Boyz they will never get out, and even if they shoot they kill a unit of 50 points at most. Actually, it is almost impossible for them to make their points back even if they shoot every turn.
Replacing the bikes with grot artillery might also work well, it is cheap and very resilient.
So your attaching 2 MA Warbosses to the 2 units of lootas (BTW this no longer works if the FAQs get approved) so they can move and shoot. Your using 8 units of 10 Boyz in Trukkz without rams (they need rams trust me) and 3 units of warbikers. The only big problem I see in this is that you seem to think that your boyz will do anything when they get into CC.
So starting with the shooting phase: 10 lootas fire 20 shots hitting 7 times wounding 6 times against pathfinders in 4+ cover = 3 dead Pathfinders x2 so 1 unit is dead, 1 is reduced to 2 models but is fine because it passed its leadership test (of course this is assuming they can see their target and that it not not fighting)
On the Tau players turn each Riptide will delete a Trukk and the Broadsides will delete another one.The Firewarriors can probably take out at least another, so lets say all told 4 trukkz are taken out and of those 4 only 1 explodes. That unit loses 4 models, and is either pinned or running away (2 leadership checks at LD7 one will fail) They don't benefit from mob rule anymore because no Nob and below 10 models. Ohhh I forgot about those crisis suits, lets say they hop over and feth up another Trukk which will explode (+3 to explode) So 5 of your trukk boyz units are dismounted or destroyed.
Actually lets play the devils advocate and say that it took 2 riptides to destroy 1 trukk and 1 riptide and 3 units of firewarriors to destroy another trukk and the fusion crisis suits and the Broadsides each kill one as well. That is literally 1/2 of the trukks dead on turn 1.
Im sorry I would keep going but its pathetic. This list will not only lose it will do so spectacularly.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/02 16:42:42
To be fair, with the shield up, and if they know you have grav devs, they will bring the shield up, you need to put in 945 points worth of grav cents to kill ONE tide.
ONE. (Technically it's like 2.5 will do it but still). In formation the Tide will usually have it's shields up.
with the shield not up, it takes 630 points, which is a lot better, though still difficult to land 2 pods and all those marines within 12" of the same tide.
That's not including the fact that you will be relatively squished together since you can't run and want to be within 12" of the tide when you land. The tides, popping their formation, will fire 4 times at your relatively bunched up marines and do quite a bit of damage.
So you've killed ~250 points and they've killed 600. You're now down on attrition and given them 28ppm that have the same defenses as 5ppm against them, relatively bunched up, for them to fire at.
I play Tau and marines, I don't know anyone who uses grav devs. They are awful, grav is only good on a relentless platform, which is why you see them on bikes and cents, and not much else. Do you not play vanilla marines? Why wouldn't you take cents over dev?
Cents are a whole other story. Cents can pop tides really well, but not devs. I'm surprised someone is claiming their few games trumps the math that heavily, and claiming math is a moot point because dice.
By that logic, a tactical squad can kill tides every turn no problem. Just roll them dice or send more dudes in
It doesn't make sense because your math is bizarre.
Devastator Squad, four Grav Cannons+Amps, on Drop Pod deployment: 3 shots at BS 5 (signum) 9 shots at BS 4
(Unbuffed Devs) on the move.
3 @ BS 5 (.833) = 2.5 hits 9 @ BS 4 (.666) = 6 Gives us 8.5 Hits. Converts to 8.27 wounds.
Unbuffed Riptide takes 3.67 wounds.
Centurions do 0.647 more wounds on the drop (also not killing the Riptide). I don't understand why you would think Centurions are so much better here, since they don't average even a single wound more. Devs are a little more expensive if you buy the entire squad, but they can soak more damage before losing efficacy.
Personally, I don't like Centurions because it only takes two wounds to reduce their firepower (and make them less effective on the move than the Devs). A lot of people get around this by adding a psyker to them. That's a whole different discussion though. If we're talking about buffing units then the Devastators can get Relentless with a Cataphractii Captain, in which case their damage output on the move surpasses the Cents. (Which, by the way they already do if they are able to stand still).
So why are Cents so much better if they aren't even doing a single wound more than the Devs? Are you buying a bigger squad? Are you buffing them? Are you tanking them? If you're not Podding them, how are they getting in range (without being shot at?)
The lootas were in the list from the beginning, you just overlooked them. The edits were to explain more clearly how I was going to use each unit and what role they would fulfil.
Again, none of your units have the range and mobility to make use of the large side arc if the wagons don't rush forwards. Riptides can only move 6" a turn before they fire.
Here's the list I just knocked up, comes to 1500 on the nose if my maths is right:
Spoiler:
HQ: Warboss in mega-armour
Troops: 15 boyz, nob with bosspole, trukk with rokkit launcher 15 boyz, nob with bosspole, trukk with rokkit launcher
Elites: 4 meganobz, battlewagon with kannon, 4 rokkits and ram
10 tankbustaz
9 kommandos with 2 burnas, nob with bosspole, Snikrot
Heavy: 15 Lootas
Battlewagon with kannon, 4 rokkits and ram
Battlewagon with kannon, 4 rokkits and ram
Lootas and Tankbustaz start in the empty battlewagons, boyz and trukks in reserve, Kommandos with snikrot in reserve, meganobz and boss in the nobwagon.
Deploy behind the 12" line, close to our board edge. Use first turn to open up on a unit of pathfinders with the lootas (15 lootas = 15 to 45 shots = 5 to 15 hits = 4 to 13 wounds = 2 to 6 dead pathfinders if they have 4+ cover). So each turn the Lootas are pretty likely to delete or render basically useless one of your pathfinder units. If your pathfinders are in range of the wagons then that means they will be in range of the wagons kannon, so they will also potentially eat a S4 AP5 blast which could kill another one, maybe two, if it hits.
When your crisis suits try to get close enough to use their meltas then they will have to go through the range of the rokkits of the wagons and tankbustas and the kannons of the wagons. Could also shoot them with the deffguns at longer range just to be sure.
When Snikrot and the kommandos enter they will have Shrouded to protect them against your EWO fire as you have no intercepting markerlights to strip cover (the EWO will also render whatever weapon you shoot at them unusable in your next shooting phase, thanks to the interceptor rules) and will light up either the clustered fire warrior teams with the burnas if they are near the back line or they will alternatively come on from a flank to hit pathfinders.
Once the pathfinders are dealt with, the wagons move forwards to get the fire warriors in range of the deffguns (and maybe the kannons, depends on what the Riptides are doing) and start to hit them until they are either destroyed or run. Then turn attention to the Broadsides and try to force saves.
When the boyz and trucks arrive they play to the mission, going to ground in cover on objectives or just sitting behind a ruin to get cover before rushing out to snatch an objective.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2016/11/02 17:24:50
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Im sorry I would keep going but its pathetic. This list will not only lose it will do so spectacularly.
Are you ever playing or do you just theoryhammer and then give up? Why don't you go and collect stamps, it seems that hobby would suit your wargaming skills a lot better.
Or maybe play a "balanced" system like WarmaHordes, see how for you get without playing the mission.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/02 17:09:27
5500 points
6000 points 
