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I play plenty of games vs them. Admittedly, several have been close, but they are almost all tablings. I'm almost always leading in points, but I run out of army. It's super frustrating. The Tau are just too lethal vs the have-not codices. Invisibility would change a lot I think. Or free transports.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/02 17:14:54
A Town Called Malus wrote: The lootas were in the list from the beginning, you just overlooked them. The edits were to explain more clearly how I was going to use each unit and what role they would fulfil.
Again, none of your units have the range and mobility to make use of the large side arc if the wagons don't rush forwards. Riptides can only move 6" a turn before they fire.
Here's the list I just knocked up, comes to 1500 on the nose if my maths is right:
Spoiler:
HQ:
Warboss in mega-armour
Troops:
15 boyz, nob with bosspole, trukk with rokkit launcher
15 boyz, nob with bosspole, trukk with rokkit launcher
Elites:
4 meganobz, battlewagon with kannon, 4 rokkits and ram
10 tankbustaz
9 kommandos with 2 burnas, nob with bosspole, Snikrot
Heavy:
15 Lootas
Battlewagon with kannon, 4 rokkits and ram
Battlewagon with kannon, 4 rokkits and ram
Lootas and Tankbustaz start in the empty battlewagons, boyz and trukks in reserve, Kommandos with snikrot in reserve, meganobz and boss in the nobwagon.
Deploy behind the 12" line, close to our board edge. Use first turn to open up on a unit of pathfinders with the lootas (15 lootas = 15 to 45 shots = 5 to 15 hits = 4 to 13 wounds = 2 to 6 dead pathfinders if they have 4+ cover. So each turn the Lootas are pretty likely to delete or render basically useless one of your pathfinder units. If your pathfinders are in range of the wagons then that means they will be in range of the wagons kannon, so they will also potentially eat a S4 AP5 blast which could kill another one, maybe two, if it hits.
When your crisis suits try to get close enough to use their meltas then they will have to go through the range of the rokkits of the wagons and tankbustas and the kannons of the wagons. Could also shoot them with the deffguns at longer range just to be sure.
When Snikrot and the kommandos enter they will have Shrouded to protect them against your EWO fire as you have no intercepting markerlights to strip cover (the EWO will also render whatever you shoot at them unusable in your next shooting phase, thanks to the interceptor rules) and will light up either the clustered fire warrior teams with the burnas if they are near the back line or they will alternatively come on from a flank to hit pathfinders.
Once the pathfinders are dealt with, the wagons move forwards to get the fire warriors in range of the deffguns (and maybe the kannons, depends on what the Riptides are doing) and start to hit them until they are either destroyed or run.
When the boyz and trucks arrive they play to the mission, going to ground in cover on objectives or just sitting behind a ruin to get cover before rushing out to snatch an objective.
A couple of things right off the bat that are problematic. Trukkz only carry 12 models which is good because your list is actually about 22pts over hte limit, so deleting those 8 extra gives you 26 more pts to work with.
Secondly, Why is the Tau player just going to sit there the entire game and not light up those lootas who aren't moving? LOL With so few inviting targets on the table (3 Wagonz) on turn 1 the Tau player can pop off his special ability and fire 6 pie plates possibly with ignores cover (depending on where the markerlights are and who got 1st turn and if the lootas did anything) on top of at least one wagon, possibly 2 if you bunched them together. But lets just say 3 for now. 3 S9AP2 Ordinance pie plates will roll 2D6 3 times to pen So each shot is almost a 50/50 to penetrate/glance So lets say it does 3 HPs with only 1 pen. That pen is AP2 on an open topped so its +2 right away which means that its a 1/3rd chance to blow up worse if it rolls stunned shaken then the lootas inside have to check to see if they are snap shooting next turn. Turn 2 if you come in from reserve your either going to be in deep cover or your going to be dead because of the plethora of EWO and if your in deep cover your probably not in a position for me to worry about you to much except a throwaway squad of Fire warriors so I will gladly ignore you for the EWO and wait for my turn to light them up with the Pathfinders still alive.
So at the end of 2 turns you will have lost your lootas battlewagon, probably a lot of the lootas after it explodes or they bail out, and you will have made ZERO Headway closing the distance. your plan is flawed from the very start dude your relying on at least 3 turns to close the distance and Tau never give you that much time.
Im sorry I would keep going but its pathetic. This list will not only lose it will do so spectacularly.
Are you ever playing or do you just theoryhammer and then give up? Why don't you go and collect stamps, it seems that hobby would suit your wargaming skills a lot better.
Or maybe play a "balanced" system like WarmaHordes, see how for you get without playing the mission.
I don't play as much these days admittedly, but I still play a couple times a month if not more. I have a lot of experience playing my orks and I know their limitation. You lot seem to think Orks can survive against riptides where as the fact is that they cannot.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/02 17:42:01
I never said the boyz were in the trukks. There's no requirement that the unit has to actually be able to fit in its dedicated transport, just that no other unit may start deployed in that transport.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/02 17:50:55
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
A Town Called Malus wrote: I never said the boyz were in the trukks. There's no requirement that the unit has to actually be able to fit in its dedicated transport.
Ahh relying on an OT AV10 vehicle to play objectives while 3 riptides and a unit of Broadsides are still in play and basically unmolested.
Your entire list is you trying to out dakka and out tank the Tau. That is a doomed tactic from the start LMAO
I don't play as much these days admittedly, but I still play a couple times a month if not more. I have a lot of experience playing my orks and I know their limitation. You lot seem to think Orks can survive against riptides where as the fact is that they cannot.
Yeah, the bottom most codex that struggles against dark eldar, another bottom tier codex, is going to have a bad time. Your qq about that is stale. The relative power of the riptide compared to codex: Orks is not a reasonable comparison. But the fact is, taking no riptides, those 675 points can go towards other units/ formations that will hurt orks significantly more effectively and efficiently. The riptide isn't even really the problem in a OvT match up. Its gonna kill 1 thing dead, where you could have 2 units kill 2 things dead for same points.
I don't play as much these days admittedly, but I still play a couple times a month if not more. I have a lot of experience playing my orks and I know their limitation. You lot seem to think Orks can survive against riptides where as the fact is that they cannot.
Yeah, the bottom most codex that struggles against dark eldar, another bottom tier codex, is going to have a bad time. Your qq about that is stale. The relative power of the riptide compared to codex: Orks is not a reasonable comparison. But the fact is, taking no riptides, those 675 points can go towards other units/ formations that will hurt orks significantly more effectively and efficiently. The riptide isn't even really the problem in a OvT match up. Its gonna kill 1 thing dead, where you could have 2 units kill 2 things dead for same points.
Couple things Puma, saying someone is "QQing" when they are disagreeing with someone is generally considered to be rude.
Secondly if you honestly believe that then I am not talking to you. I am talking to people like Malus who think an Ork list can take on a riptide wing and win.
Martel732 wrote: I play plenty of games vs them. Admittedly, several have been close, but they are almost all tablings. I'm almost always leading in points, but I run out of army. It's super frustrating. The Tau are just too lethal vs the have-not codices. Invisibility would change a lot I think. Or free transports.
Or simply a half-decent codex with proper point costs for their units/upgrades and less nonesense trap choices like 4 ppm for a 4+ armor. (will someone explain how it makes sense a boy and a warboss both pay the same for armor!?)
I mean, it has some decent choices around. its not FAR from being a good codex, it just needs a properly placed nudge and things start falling into place on their own.
Slightly cheaper armor/weapon upgrades, some tweaks on the specialist orks and maybe a tiny buff here and there and they can cross the gap that pulls them back of having not enough survive until they hit the enemy.
Quite a few ork options are in the "decent" spectrum.
I honestly have a hard time pointing out exactly where the problem is. most units I look at appear to be sorta good, nothing top tier-but defiantly not beyond salvation.most need only a point or three off (per model), or even simply access to upgrades to be really good units. (there are some utter derps, but not many. most are units are definatly at the "almost" realm)
Take stormboyz for example. they are rather cheap, and pretty fast. could they take even some simple upgrades like flamers-they could be quite good.
Regular boys-make the armor cost 2, and give them a minor treat (say increase the special weapon count to one in five and put big choppas as options) and they are suddenly really nice.
Bikers-once you accept that the 'ard armor is a 2 point upgrade rather than 4, they naturally drop 2 points, and at 16 they aint bad. knock them down to 15 and they are really good.
There are other examples of units that a minor change turns them really different.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
Martel732 wrote: I play plenty of games vs them. Admittedly, several have been close, but they are almost all tablings. I'm almost always leading in points, but I run out of army. It's super frustrating. The Tau are just too lethal vs the have-not codices. Invisibility would change a lot I think. Or free transports.
Or simply a half-decent codex with proper point costs for their units/upgrades and less nonesense trap choices like 4 ppm for a 4+ armor. (will someone explain how it makes sense a boy and a warboss both pay the same for armor!?)
I mean, it has some decent choices around. its not FAR from being a good codex, it just needs a properly placed nudge and things start falling into place on their own. Slightly cheaper armor/weapon upgrades, some tweaks on the specialist orks and maybe a tiny buff here and there and they can cross the gap that pulls them back of having not enough survive until they hit the enemy.
Quite a few ork options are in the "decent" spectrum. I honestly have a hard time pointing out exactly where the problem is. most units I look at appear to be sorta good, nothing top tier-but defiantly not beyond salvation.most need only a point or three off (per model), or even simply access to upgrades to be really good units. (there are some utter derps, but not many. most are units are definatly at the "almost" realm) Take stormboyz for example. they are rather cheap, and pretty fast. could they take even some simple upgrades like flamers-they could be quite good. Regular boys-make the armor cost 2, and give them a minor treat (say increase the special weapon count to one in five and put big choppas as options) and they are suddenly really nice. Bikers-once you accept that the 'ard armor is a 2 point upgrade rather than 4, they naturally drop 2 points, and at 16 they aint bad. knock them down to 15 and they are really good. There are other examples of units that a minor change turns them really different.
I agree with most of this. Unfortunately none of those small buffs will in any meaningful way increase the odds of killing a riptide wing. A single Riptide can be dealt with either by target saturation or by simply ignoring it and letting it poke holes in your army. But against 2+ or a Wing it becomes a different beast entirely.
I think every top tier codex has 1 or 2 units that are auto-includes and are usually OP in some way. Orks really don't have that. Our best units are S3 BS2 Warbikers who are more deadly at shooting (with a S5 BS2 weapon) then at CC where apparently we shine. Our other best units are Tankbustas which I have never really liked, to costly for what they can do/how squishy they are and maybe Meganobz, which while not great are at least OK and not in need of a huge buff, I would say they rate about the same as terminators.
As for stormboyz, if they could take 4+ armor or maybe get the old warbiker rule of +1 to cover saves (Exhaust Cloud) that would make them good.
Regardless unless Orks get some kind of super unit to put alongside Wraith Knights, Riptides/Stormsurges, TWC/Wulfen, and the like we really don't have a chance against those kind of builds.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/02 18:33:47
Martel732 wrote: You'll never make it into a position to do those wounds without external buffs. That's why i say they aren't good.
Are you really disputing that skyhammer is a total fail vs tau? Your grav cannons will never fire.
Sooo, you can't name another unit that can average ~4 wounds on a Riptide?
I don't use Skyhammer, btw. (though a GravDev squad would average 6 wounds). I think Skyhammer is A: Beardy, B: Not flexible enough for my taste.
This is an honest question because I have almost zero interceptor units and I don't play Tau or SMs. But if a GravDev squad did land next to a riptide, wouldn't every unit in range/LOS with EWO get to shoot the piss out of those Grav Devs before they get to fire? at full Ballistic skill?
And if that is in fact the case wouldn't it be likely that a single Grav Dev squad would get wiped out rather quickly before it gets to fire?
Martel732 wrote: You'll never make it into a position to do those wounds without external buffs. That's why i say they aren't good.
Are you really disputing that skyhammer is a total fail vs tau? Your grav cannons will never fire.
Sooo, you can't name another unit that can average ~4 wounds on a Riptide?
I don't use Skyhammer, btw. (though a GravDev squad would average 6 wounds). I think Skyhammer is A: Beardy, B: Not flexible enough for my taste.
You can't name one, either. Because that unit will never cause 4 wounds to a Riptide except in the rarest of circumstances. If you are able to do it consistently, then your Tau opponents are awful. This the crux of my problem with the Riptide. It even hard counters the units meant to counter it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/02 18:49:26
To be fair, with the shield up, and if they know you have grav devs, they will bring the shield up, you need to put in 945 points worth of grav cents to kill ONE tide.
ONE. (Technically it's like 2.5 will do it but still). In formation the Tide will usually have it's shields up.
with the shield not up, it takes 630 points, which is a lot better, though still difficult to land 2 pods and all those marines within 12" of the same tide.
That's not including the fact that you will be relatively squished together since you can't run and want to be within 12" of the tide when you land. The tides, popping their formation, will fire 4 times at your relatively bunched up marines and do quite a bit of damage.
So you've killed ~250 points and they've killed 600. You're now down on attrition and given them 28ppm that have the same defenses as 5ppm against them, relatively bunched up, for them to fire at.
I play Tau and marines, I don't know anyone who uses grav devs. They are awful, grav is only good on a relentless platform, which is why you see them on bikes and cents, and not much else. Do you not play vanilla marines? Why wouldn't you take cents over dev?
Cents are a whole other story. Cents can pop tides really well, but not devs. I'm surprised someone is claiming their few games trumps the math that heavily, and claiming math is a moot point because dice.
By that logic, a tactical squad can kill tides every turn no problem. Just roll them dice or send more dudes in
It doesn't make sense because your math is bizarre.
Devastator Squad, four Grav Cannons+Amps, on Drop Pod deployment: 3 shots at BS 5 (signum) 9 shots at BS 4
(Unbuffed Devs) on the move.
3 @ BS 5 (.833) = 2.5 hits 9 @ BS 4 (.666) = 6 Gives us 8.5 Hits. Converts to 8.27 wounds.
Unbuffed Riptide takes 3.67 wounds.
You probably think my math is "bizarre" because you assumed 3 cents to make your point, and STILL came up short by half a wound.
Cent stars aren't three guys. They are maxed out and get split fire with re-rolls to hit due to a psyker, since they are worth investing in. It's more expensive then the devs, but much more survivable, with much better fire power, easily able to delete 2 riptides a turn on average. You would need 4 squads of devs to do that, and they'd be weaker defensively and much harder to land and re-locate. You also managed to gloss over the range issues as well.
I really didn't think I had to detail the load out for cents to someone who claims to play competitively.
You never see cents without the star, because as you've pointed out, they aren't that great without it. With it, they are broken and leave devs behind so badly it's not funny. Why would you take the much weaker option, and why would we discuss it, if looking at them from a balance viewpoint?
You never see the Riptide without the wing, because there is no reason not to take it. It's an auto-include, I don't know why we are dismissing it from the conversation other than "reasons". If you always see one with the other, they are apart of the conversation and can't be separated.
You can't name one, either. Because that unit will never cause 4 wounds to a Riptide except in the rarest of circumstances. If you are able to do it consistently, then your Tau opponents are awful. This the crux of my problem with the Riptide. It even hard counters the units meant to counter it.
Well if you can't name a better unit for shooting the Riptide, then both Centurions and Devs are the go-to tool. They can't be awful if they're still the most effective things available. If you can land them in a good spot where they aren't taking every possible Interceptor shot (or are landing with other units that will also take Interceptor), then they can knock a Riptide down enough so that supporting units can finish it off. Take it battle by battle, if you can make a good drop, take it, if you can't, either drop on something else or wait a turn and try and make a better opportunity.
The most efficient counter to a Riptide isn't shooting anyways, like most Tau units the best counter is CC. Just tie it up so it can't shoot. Yeah, yeah, you take a lot of casualties on the way, but by far the most points efficient way to make a Riptide stop firing is to lock in in CC.
You probably think my math is "bizarre" because you assumed 3 cents to make your point, and STILL came up short by half a wound.
Cent stars aren't three guys. They are maxed out and get split fire with re-rolls to hit due to a psyker, since they are worth investing in. It's more expensive then the devs, but much more survivable, with much better fire power, easily able to delete 2 riptides a turn on average. You would need 4 squads of devs to do that, and they'd be weaker defensively and much harder to land and re-locate. You also managed to gloss over the range issues as well.
I really didn't think I had to detail the load out for cents to someone who claims to play competitively.
You never see cents without the star, because as you've pointed out, they aren't that great without it. With it, they are broken and leave devs behind so badly it's not funny. Why would you take the much weaker option, and why would we discuss it, if looking at them from a balance viewpoint?
You never see the Riptide without the wing, because there is no reason not to take it. It's an auto-include, I don't know why we are dismissing it from the conversation other than "reasons". If you always see one with the other, they are apart of the conversation and can't be separated.
Ok, so how many points are you sinking into that?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/02 19:22:31
"They can't be awful if they're still the most effective things available"
That's not necessarily true. There is the possibility that every unit, unsupported, is indeed awful vs the Riptide. Which is my contention. Just because grav devs and grav cents are the best, does not make them good.
Locking a Riptide in CC is still a win for the Tau. They get all the kills from the Riptide before it was engaged in CC, plus the unit you just threw away for the rest of the game. Assuming the Riptide doesn't win the CC and kill your unit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/02 19:24:00
You can't name one, either. Because that unit will never cause 4 wounds to a Riptide except in the rarest of circumstances. If you are able to do it consistently, then your Tau opponents are awful. This the crux of my problem with the Riptide. It even hard counters the units meant to counter it.
Well if you can't name a better unit for shooting the Riptide, then both Centurions and Devs are the go-to tool. They can't be awful if they're still the most effective things available.
What?
No.
If I don't own a hammer that doesn't make my hand an effective tool for driving nails into things. It simply means I lack effective tools.
That said, Cents are effective tools for countering Tides. SM might be the best army in the game against Tau, though it might be necrons. No one else can delete so much firepower turn 1 while being very difficult to shoot down with most weapons. Necrons simply don't care about Tides overly much compared to other armies if they spam wraiths, and why wouldn't you?
If you can land them in a good spot where they aren't taking every possible Interceptor shot (or are landing with other units that will also take Interceptor), then they can knock a Riptide down enough so that supporting units can finish it off. Take it battle by battle, if you can make a good drop, take it, if you can't, either drop on something else or wait a turn and try and make a better opportunity.
The most efficient counter to a Riptide isn't shooting anyways, like most Tau units the best counter is CC. Just tie it up so it can't shoot. Yeah, yeah, you take a lot of casualties on the way, but by far the most points efficient way to make a Riptide stop firing is to lock in in CC.
I play Tau and there are very few armies that can reach CC with my tide before turn 3, where the tide has earned it's points back. Saying "hit CC" is not a good strategy for the vast majority of armies. Daemons, Necrons, and SW can do it against them, but the vast majority of armies simply won't. Maybe my fire warriors, but the tides are too fast and are usually further back. Possibly CSM with the new book, though that is some risky business.
You probably think my math is "bizarre" because you assumed 3 cents to make your point, and STILL came up short by half a wound.
Cent stars aren't three guys. They are maxed out and get split fire with re-rolls to hit due to a psyker, since they are worth investing in. It's more expensive then the devs, but much more survivable, with much better fire power, easily able to delete 2 riptides a turn on average. You would need 4 squads of devs to do that, and they'd be weaker defensively and much harder to land and re-locate. You also managed to gloss over the range issues as well.
I really didn't think I had to detail the load out for cents to someone who claims to play competitively.
You never see cents without the star, because as you've pointed out, they aren't that great without it. With it, they are broken and leave devs behind so badly it's not funny. Why would you take the much weaker option, and why would we discuss it, if looking at them from a balance viewpoint?
You never see the Riptide without the wing, because there is no reason not to take it. It's an auto-include, I don't know why we are dismissing it from the conversation other than "reasons". If you always see one with the other, they are apart of the conversation and can't be separated.
Ok, so how many points are you sinking into that?
About 2 of your dev squads.
You can compare if you want, 2 dev squads versus the cent star. The cent star is better in nearly everyway, which is why it sees competitive play and the dev squads don't.
Are you unaware of a centstar? I can provide a write up if so and go over why its the better choice. The dev squad is the inferior choice for other reasons and isn't an effective counter to a riptide (you simply need way too many points and good placement). I'm surprised you're advocating it unless you just hate Cents. They are ugly and really unfluffy for anyone but Iron Hands, so I can understand that.
About 2 of your dev squads.
You can compare if you want, 2 dev squads versus the cent star. The cent star is better in nearly everyway, which is why it sees competitive play and the dev squads don't.
Are you unaware of a centstar? I can provide a write up if so and go over why its the better choice. The dev squad is the inferior choice for other reasons and isn't an effective counter to a riptide (you simply need way too many points and good placement). I'm surprised you're advocating it unless you just hate Cents. They are ugly and really unfluffy for anyone but Iron Hands, so I can understand that.
Ok, so to back up and look at your previous statement:
Akiasura wrote: [
with the shield not up, it takes 630 points, which is a lot better, though still difficult to land 2 pods and all those marines within 12" of the same tide.
It appears that your argument is this: "Devs are terrible because it takes ~600 points worth to kill a Riptide, but Cents are clearly better because it takes only ~600 points to kill a Riptide."
I think we're clearly in "Different Strokes for Different Folks" territory. I can look at 600 points and think to myself, "Two DropDevGrav squads, using Doctrines (re-roll to hit for 5ish unsaved wounds on a Riptide) means I can nearly kill two Riptides instead of one, and backfield Lascannons (or whatever) can finish them off.
One major problem I have with the Cents is that if they don't get the first turn, they're just T 5, 2+ save models that can be alpha struck off the table. To me they're a huge target, and therefore a liability at the start of the game. Somewhat appropriately, they look like a big target for DropGravDevs.
The other reason I don't like them is that they can't soak wounds the way that Devastators can. Sure you can set them up in cover, and that can help (you can also DSDevs into cover, so that's somewhat moot.) But I feel that models that are individually that expensive are a poor investment. In order to make them more durable, you're forced to take or attach certain characters to them, and I prefer not to put so many points towards a single unit.
I also don't like them aesthetically or fictionally, but if I really felt I needed Cents I'd figure something out. I just don't feel I need them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/02 20:47:06
They really don't. In the form of a large blast, the Centurions take one wound each and are done with it. Compare that to the Marines where every wound lost is a hit to firepower.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: They really don't. In the form of a large blast, the Centurions take one wound each and are done with it. Compare that to the Marines where every wound lost is a hit to firepower.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: They really don't. In the form of a large blast, the Centurions take one wound each and are done with it. Compare that to the Marines where every wound lost is a hit to firepower.
About 2 of your dev squads.
You can compare if you want, 2 dev squads versus the cent star. The cent star is better in nearly everyway, which is why it sees competitive play and the dev squads don't.
Are you unaware of a centstar? I can provide a write up if so and go over why its the better choice. The dev squad is the inferior choice for other reasons and isn't an effective counter to a riptide (you simply need way too many points and good placement). I'm surprised you're advocating it unless you just hate Cents. They are ugly and really unfluffy for anyone but Iron Hands, so I can understand that.
Ok, so to back up and look at your previous statement:
Akiasura wrote: [
with the shield not up, it takes 630 points, which is a lot better, though still difficult to land 2 pods and all those marines within 12" of the same tide.
It appears that your argument is this: "Devs are terrible because it takes ~600 points worth to kill a Riptide, but Cents are clearly better because it takes only ~600 points to kill a Riptide."
600 points to kill two riptides.
15 shots per tide with re-rolls to hit does the job for cents if they don't get the shield off. Split fire allows them to target two people. 2 Dead, pretty good odds of it happening. You take a max squad because the librarian buffs the whole squad and they split fire anyway, there is no point in taking only 1 squad min sized squad. It's simply not worth it.
My argument also includes that the cents do it from further away, with a much smaller footprint than 2 squads of grav devs plus pods that need to be quite close. Not to mention that, with powers, the Centstar is extremely hard to remove compared to tactical marines alone in your backyard.
I think we're clearly in "Different Strokes for Different Folks" territory. I can look at 600 points and think to myself, "Two DropDevGrav squads, using Doctrines (re-roll to hit for 5ish unsaved wounds on a Riptide) means I can nearly kill two Riptides instead of one, and backfield Lascannons (or whatever) can finish them off.
If you're taking lascannons, I don't think we are discussing competitive options anymore.
Do the doctrines add that many wounds? It seems like it would add one, which puts you under par, and still leaves you weaker than the cent star.
You're also assuming you can land two pods within firing distance of the tide compared to one squad of cents. The cents aren't going to take much return fire since tides tend to be in the back.
It's not Different Strokes. Look at winning tournament lists, you'll see the Cent star or gladius commonly featured. You won't see Devs taken at all.
Because one option is clearly superior.
One major problem I have with the Cents is that if they don't get the first turn, they're just T 5, 2+ save models that can be alpha struck off the table. To me they're a huge target, and therefore a liability at the start of the game. Somewhat appropriately, they look like a big target for DropGravDevs.
You deploy them out of LoS because they teleport. They are only a target to people that can inflict a ton of wounds to units with a 2+ save from deep strike which is...pretty much marines. Against them, you deploy in reserves until the pods land and then go nuts. It's certainly weaker, but still fine (They can, for example, pop out, kill the two dev squads in one turn of shooting, and earn their points back right away).
Sometimes they have a guy with a good save tanking wounds, but honestly that's way over the top in my opinion and its harder to get a return on their point cost.
Are you sure you're aware of how the star works?
The other reason I don't like them is that they can't soak wounds the way that Devastators can. Sure you can set them up in cover, and that can help (you can also DSDevs into cover, so that's somewhat moot.) But I feel that models that are individually that expensive are a poor investment. In order to make them more durable, you're forced to take or attach certain characters to them, and I prefer not to put so many points towards a single unit.
Uh, with the psyker the cents are much more durable than the marine squad. It's not even close. People often take tiggy or another sc to get a good chance of getting a power that allows them to have an extremely high toughness or invisibility.
Again, are you aware of how the star works?
For what its worth, I don't like deathstars. I hate the idea of one unit dictating my strategy so much, and don't that playstyle and try not to use it. It certainly doesn't play that way in WMH outside a minority of casters.
But in 40k Stars are THE most competitive option. It's just a fact of the game sadly, unless you nerf a lot. It's not a different strokes, it's just the state of the game. A star can carry a codex on it's shoulders, and many of the better dexes have solid stars while the weaker ones don't. Not always true, Tau for example (though riptide wing feels like a star unless you have grav) but often the case.
I don't think you need cents unless your meta is ultra competitive. WKs, Scat Bikes, Riptide Formation, Reanimation Protocol Wraith wing, Gladius everywhere, allies spammed, TWC deathstars and what have you. The SM codex has a lot of strong options. But when I need something to 100% die right away no matter what, it's rare that there is a better option than the cent star (and often it's because grav doesn't work well). I mean...they shut down knight armies on their own, they can kill 2 knights a turn easily, over and over again.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/02 21:21:03
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: They really don't. In the form of a large blast, the Centurions take one wound each and are done with it. Compare that to the Marines where every wound lost is a hit to firepower.
Actually, you lose one cent for every two wounds.
If you reread the statement you'll see I'm on the right track.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
600 points to kill two riptides.
15 shots per tide with re-rolls to hit does the job for cents if they don't get the shield off. Split fire allows them to target two people. 2 Dead, pretty good odds of it happening.
Uhh, the rules for Split fire only allow one model to fire at a different target. So you're only killing one Riptide.
If you reread the statement you'll see I'm on the right track.
I don't see how. Wounds are allocated to the closest model until it's removed. A Cent squad that takes 3 wounds from a blast loses a Cent and takes an additional wound.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/02 21:38:23
worse if it rolls stunned shaken then the lootas inside have to check to see if they are snap shooting next turn. Turn 2 if you come in from reserve your either going to be in deep cover or your going to be dead because of the plethora of 
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
