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Splatacus wrote:
The point is that infiltration and cult ambush are different abilities. just like infiltration and outflank are different. you have to have infiltrate to outflank and servo skulls don't effect that. So why would needing infiltrate to cult ambush allow servo skulls to block cult ambush.

You are operating under a misconception and have provided an error. I will get to the misconception in a moment, but the error is that Outflank can be provided in one of three ways: the unit possesses the Special Rule Outflank, the unit possesses the Special Rule Scout, and/or the unit possesses the Special Rule Infiltrate. I can have a unit Outflank without having any infiltrators in my army.

Splatacus wrote:
Servo skulls don't stop cult ambush when coming from reserve later in the game. Why would they stop it at the start of the game.

Servo skulls specifically say what they can stop (infiltrate and scout move) if it was intended to stop anything that required infiltrate as a prerequisite it would be worded to include them or have a broader definition.

Your misconception is that Servo Skulls stop "Infiltrate". This is not wholly accurate. They stop "infiltrators".

"Infiltrate" is used as noun for the Special Rule itself and as a verb. "Infiltrator" is a term used to identify a person who possesses the Infiltrate Special Rule, as identified in the special rule itself and the Draft FAQ, and is not limited to just a person who is infiltrating.

If there was not a No Man's Land between deployment zones, Servo Skulls placed on the zone border could prevent Infiltrators from deploying normally in their own deployment zone, even if they weren't waiting to deploy and deployed at the same time the units without Infiltrate are put on the board.

so you are saying that if you take around 3 inquisitors all with 3 skulls each that a genestealer cult army using the cult insurrection can't even set up on the board. So it takes 93 points of inquisition to table a cult army using the cult insurrection.

Splatacus wrote:
so you are saying that if you take around 3 inquisitors all with 3 skulls each that a genestealer cult army using the cult insurrection can't even set up on the board. So it takes 93 points of inquisition to table a cult army using the cult insurrection.

I'm not saying this, the Servo Skulls rule is saying this, and only on one setup. And this only applies to the Deployment Phase, not anything after. Not to mention that the Skull sets up an approx 25" circle, 12" half-circle in the Deployment Zone, not a flat square, so room is possible.

Also, since I guess it needs to be stated again, the CA rule says "Units that infiltrate (verb)" in the very first sentence. The unit has to actually infiltrate in order to deploy and use the CA rules. Not that Infiltrators have any say in the matter. If your unit has infiltrate it doesn't matter where on the board you decide to put them, in your deployment zone or not, they are infiltrating. That means the Servo Skulls set a minimum distance of 12" regardless.

 Lance845 wrote:
Not that Infiltrators have any say in the matter. If your unit has infiltrate it doesn't matter where on the board you decide to put them, in your deployment zone or not, they are infiltrating. That means the Servo Skulls set a minimum distance of 12" regardless.

According to the rule in the rulebook, correct. According to the Draft FAQs, not so much. To Infiltrate is apparently a voluntary activity.

However, that doesn't matter since Servo-Skulls don't affect those who are infiltrating, but those units who have the Infiltrate Special Rule, as previously demonstrated by the use of "infiltrator" in the Infiltrate Special Rule.

Hi,

Sorry for my bad english. I read this post and I don't find answer to my question.

Then I use CA with infiltration, I deploy units at Turn "0" or "1"?

Thanks a lot!

Roger01 wrote:
Hi,

Sorry for my bad english. I read this post and I don't find answer to my question.

Then I use CA with infiltration, I deploy units at Turn "0" or "1"?

Thanks a lot!

If the unit has Infiltrate then you can deploy (turn 0) with CA.

 Lance845 wrote:


If the unit has Infiltrate then you can deploy (turn 0) with CA.

Thanks, so if I get a 5 on the dice , can I fire at turn 0? And if I get 5 with genestealer (no ranged weapon), it say that the unit can run at mouvement phase.. turn 1?

And on the CA rule it say : " (...) and cannot move any futher during the Mouvement phase of the turn they deploy (...)"

So, if I deploy at turn "0", Can I move at turn "1"? because it's not the turn they deploy...

Roger01 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:


If the unit has Infiltrate then you can deploy (turn 0) with CA.

Thanks, so if I get a 5 on the dice , can I fire at turn 0? And if I get 5 with genestealer (no ranged weapon), it say that the unit can run at mouvement phase.. turn 1?

And on the CA rule it say : " (...) and cannot move any futher during the Mouvement phase of the turn they deploy (...)"

So, if I deploy at turn "0", Can I move at turn "1"? because it's not the turn they deploy...

For the result of 5 you would get to make a bonus shooting attack after placing the unit. which is not a run so no running. The result does not give a bonus shooting phase, it specifies a shooting attack.

On your turn 1 they would be able to move, as that is not the turn they were deployed or arrived (they were there before turn 1 if you deployed them using cult ambush during infiltration)

blaktoof wrote:
For the result of 5 you would get to make a bonus shooting attack after placing the unit. which is not a run so no running. The result does not give a bonus shooting phase, it specifies a shooting attack.

On your turn 1 they would be able to move, as that is not the turn they were deployed or arrived (they were there before turn 1 if you deployed them using cult ambush during infiltration)

If they can move at turn one, why this is written : Unless otherwiss specified, ambushing units move onto the table as described of the Reserves and cannot move any futher during the Mouvement phase of the turn they deploy or arrive on the battlefield.

"The turn they deploy": there's no "turn 0" so if necessarily turn 1 no? Ans the Reseves arrive at a turn of a game, no the deployement phase.

I'm just looking logic on this rule.

Roger01 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
For the result of 5 you would get to make a bonus shooting attack after placing the unit. which is not a run so no running. The result does not give a bonus shooting phase, it specifies a shooting attack.

On your turn 1 they would be able to move, as that is not the turn they were deployed or arrived (they were there before turn 1 if you deployed them using cult ambush during infiltration)

If they can move at turn one, why this is written : Unless otherwiss specified, ambushing units move onto the table as described of the Reserves and cannot move any futher during the Mouvement phase of the turn they deploy or arrive on the battlefield.

"The turn they deploy": there's no "turn 0" so if necessarily turn 1 no? Ans the Reseves arrive at a turn of a game, no the deployement phase.

I'm just looking logic on this rule.

You are correct. There is no turn 0. They did not arrive in turn 1. They arrived during deployment before the game began. On turn 1 they would be able to move normally.

Wrong, you deploy at the start of turn 1 as far the Cult Ambush rules are concerned. Otherwise it causes far too many inconsistencies and question to crop up. It's very clearly intended that you cannot move in the first turn movement phase if you deployed with the CA table.

 CryonicCenobyte wrote:
Wrong, you deploy at the start of turn 1 as far the Cult Ambush rules are concerned. Otherwise it causes far too many inconsistencies and question to crop up. It's very clearly intended that you cannot move in the first turn movement phase if you deployed with the CA table.

Except that Infiltrate occurs before the game starts (and thus not in any turn) - and so if you CA whilst Infiltrating (regardless of whether this is affected by servo skulls or not) you do it before the game starts and can thus move in T1, shoot heavy weapons at full BS, etc.Maybe it was intended that you can't move first turn if you deployed with it (though I disagree), but that isn't what the rules say.

The rules explicitly say you cannot move in the turn you deployed. Like, verbatim. How are you not understanding this?

 CryonicCenobyte wrote:
The rules explicitly say you cannot move in the turn you deployed. Like, verbatim. How are you not understanding this?

Deployment (including infiltration) happens before the game starts. Ergo, you don't deploy in turn one, thus you can still move in turn one.

According to Codex: GSC, you deploy in turn one, since it says you cannot move in the turn you deployed, you clearly MUST deploy in a turn. Codex rules always trump main rulebook.

Stop being intentionally dense about this. The only people who take RAW over RAI are either rules-lawyering ****s trying to exploit the rules for cheap advantages, or morons who need to pick up a dictionary and read the definition of the word "intended".

Where do you read that you deploy in turn 1? : /

"Unless otherwise specified, ambushing units move onto the table as described for other Reserves and cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deploy or arrive on the battlefield."

"of the turn they deploy"

"turn they deploy"

This wording would have no relevance if you followed the disgusting rules-lawyers b******t logic of "hurr deployment isn't a turn". The Codex says there's a turn in which models deploy, therefore deployment is now considered to be part of turn 1 as of the release of this book, or it is as far as this specific rule is concerned at the very least.

Anyone trying to convince you otherwise is attempting to cheat and you should refuse to play them. I say this as a Genestealer Cult player.

If you think that.. you only can deploy in second turn.. because is a reserve..

Sorry but no logic.

That is speaking if you use the cult ambush as reserve, but you can use it as infiltrate. Infiltrate is in deployment, before any turns.

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

 CryonicCenobyte wrote:
"Unless otherwise specified, ambushing units move onto the table as described for other Reserves and cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deploy or arrive on the battlefield."

"of the turn they deploy"

"turn they deploy"

This wording would have no relevance if you followed the disgusting rules-lawyers b******t logic of "hurr deployment isn't a turn". The Codex says there's a turn in which models deploy, therefore deployment is now considered to be part of turn 1 as of the release of this book, or it is as far as this specific rule is concerned at the very least.

Anyone trying to convince you otherwise is attempting to cheat and you should refuse to play them. I say this as a Genestealer Cult player.

Rule 1 much? Anyway, the alternative perspective is that this codex doesn't completely re-write a major special rule and deployment for the entire game, and instead is just worded so that CA can be used for both infiltration and for coming on from ongoing reserves - as it specifies is possible. If I were infiltrating with CA, the solution is simple, just ignore the parts of the rules that don't make sense.

Maybe it was intended that if you use CA with infiltrate you're not meant to move, but the wording of the rule doesn't support it. I'd argue that if they did want that to be the case, the cult should move onto the table at the start of t1 (so after everyone sets up and avoiding seize rolls, in the normal reserve phase) rather than as infiltration occurs - before t1. It can surely only be either or, not both.

The wording of the rule absolutely supports it, and again you're being intentionally dense and getting on my nerves. I can't abide cheaters, it's just pathetic.

The wording is, VERBATIM, "cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deploy".

Deployment ONLY HAPPENS at the start of the game, so that part of the rule cannot be applying to the cases where you ambush from Reserve.

The rule says the TURN THEY DEPLOY, meaning deployment MUST happen during a turn.

You cannot move turn 1 if you deployed with Cult Ambush. Period. Period. Arguing otherwise is a despicable demonstration of trying to cheat for advantage and the people who do that are in direct opposition to the spirit of the game. Cut that **** out.

 CryonicCenobyte wrote:
The wording of the rule absolutely supports it, and again you're being intentionally dense and getting on my nerves. I can't abide cheaters, it's just pathetic.

The wording is, VERBATIM, "cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deploy".

Deployment ONLY HAPPENS at the start of the game, so that part of the rule cannot be applying to the cases where you ambush from Reserve.

The rule says the TURN THEY DEPLOY, meaning deployment MUST happen during a turn.

You cannot move turn 1 if you deployed with Cult Ambush. Period. Period. Arguing otherwise is a despicable demonstration of trying to cheat for advantage and the people who do that are in direct opposition to the spirit of the game. Cut that **** out.

"...the turn they deploy." There are two times a unit deploys - one is at the start of the game before the first turn (since Seizing happens after this which affects who has first turn), and when they arrive from Reserves (as an example, re-read the Deep Strike rules), which happens on Turns 2-6 (possibly Turn 1 as well, but only in a select few armies).

 CryonicCenobyte wrote:
"Unless otherwise specified, ambushing units move onto the table as described for other Reserves and cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deploy or arrive on the battlefield."

I note that you are ignoring the most important part.

Infiltrate most definitely specifies otherwise in its use of timing. To believe otherwise is to ignore what Infiltrate states.

I agree that 'deploy' is meant to refer to infiltrators who instead roll on the CA table. However, I also agree that deployment doesn't happen in a game turn, so the movement restriction in sentence 2 cannot apply to units who infiltrate and choose to roll on CA.

There's actually another plausible interpretation, though. You could argue that the movement restriction only applies to rolls of 1 and 2 on the chart, because those units are the only ones that move as part of their deployment/arrival. Sentence 2 reads, ""Unless otherwise specified, ambushing units move onto the table as described for other Reserves and cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deploy or arrive on the battlefield." You could argue that results 3-6 on the table otherwise specify how the units arrive, i.e. by setting up instead of moving on, and they haven't moved at all (so any movement they make isn't further movement) and therefore the movement restriction doesn't apply to them.

It's also worth mentioning that sentence 2 refers to 'other Reserves,' which suggests sentence 2 applies only to units arriving from reserves, not infiltrators. That's probably just sloppy writing, though.

Hesperus wrote:
I agree that 'deploy' is meant to refer to infiltrators who instead roll on the CA table. However, I also agree that deployment doesn't happen in a game turn, so the movement restriction in sentence 2 cannot apply to units who infiltrate and choose to roll on CA.

There's actually another plausible interpretation, though. You could argue that the movement restriction only applies to rolls of 1 and 2 on the chart, because those units are the only ones that move as part of their deployment/arrival. Sentence 2 reads, ""Unless otherwise specified, ambushing units move onto the table as described for other Reserves and cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deploy or arrive on the battlefield." You could argue that results 3-6 on the table otherwise specify how the units arrive, i.e. by setting up instead of moving on, and they haven't moved at all (so any movement they make isn't further movement) and therefore the movement restriction doesn't apply to them.

It's also worth mentioning that sentence 2 refers to 'other Reserves,' which suggests sentence 2 applies only to units arriving from reserves, not infiltrators. That's probably just sloppy writing, though.

This is an argument I've been mulling over and I always think of a roll of 6. If you can move after using CA then why say the unit sets up outside of 3"? It would be better, at that point, to say setup outside of 9" and can charge turn they deploy. Alternatively, just make it a 1" deploy and just cut to the end result. The conclusion I come to is that they cannot move. They can still charge and probably will make the charge, but can still fail the charge on a roll of 2 which gives the target unit a chance to get away.

BomBomHotdog wrote:

Hesperus wrote:
I agree that 'deploy' is meant to refer to infiltrators who instead roll on the CA table. However, I also agree that deployment doesn't happen in a game turn, so the movement restriction in sentence 2 cannot apply to units who infiltrate and choose to roll on CA.

There's actually another plausible interpretation, though. You could argue that the movement restriction only applies to rolls of 1 and 2 on the chart, because those units are the only ones that move as part of their deployment/arrival. Sentence 2 reads, ""Unless otherwise specified, ambushing units move onto the table as described for other Reserves and cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deploy or arrive on the battlefield." You could argue that results 3-6 on the table otherwise specify how the units arrive, i.e. by setting up instead of moving on, and they haven't moved at all (so any movement they make isn't further movement) and therefore the movement restriction doesn't apply to them.

It's also worth mentioning that sentence 2 refers to 'other Reserves,' which suggests sentence 2 applies only to units arriving from reserves, not infiltrators. That's probably just sloppy writing, though.

This is an argument I've been mulling over and I always think of a roll of 6. If you can move after using CA then why say the unit sets up outside of 3"? It would be better, at that point, to say setup outside of 9" and can charge turn they deploy. Alternatively, just make it a 1" deploy and just cut to the end result. The conclusion I come to is that they cannot move. They can still charge and probably will make the charge, but can still fail the charge on a roll of 2 which gives the target unit a chance to get away.

I don't know if this particular argument holds up - being forced to set up 6" further from the enemy but then move limits your tactical options a lot - the enemy can deny you the ability by placing units 13" apart, and on first turn you get a ton less versatility, especially if your opponent siezes and moves away first.

Benlisted wrote:

BomBomHotdog wrote:


This is an argument I've been mulling over and I always think of a roll of 6. If you can move after using CA then why say the unit sets up outside of 3"? It would be better, at that point, to say setup outside of 9" and can charge turn they deploy. Alternatively, just make it a 1" deploy and just cut to the end result. The conclusion I come to is that they cannot move. They can still charge and probably will make the charge, but can still fail the charge on a roll of 2 which gives the target unit a chance to get away.

I don't know if this particular argument holds up - being forced to set up 6" further from the enemy but then move limits your tactical options a lot - the enemy can deny you the ability by placing units 13" apart, and on first turn you get a ton less versatility, especially if your opponent siezes and moves away first.

Yeah, I think that's too much of a stretch, mostly because I think it gives the rule writers a little too much credit. Frankly, I don't think they really thought through that they were replacing one rule (reserves) that takes place in the movement phase and another (infiltrate) that takes place before the game starts. Given the fact that they didn't think through that, I'm not willing to assume that they were thinking about charge ranges when they wrote the rule.

Hesperus wrote:
Yeah, I think that's too much of a stretch, mostly because I think it gives the rule writers a little too much credit. Frankly, I don't think they really thought through that they were replacing one rule (reserves) that takes place in the movement phase and another (infiltrate) that takes place before the game starts. Given the fact that they didn't think through that, I'm not willing to assume that they were thinking about charge ranges when they wrote the rule.

Yeah, it's not like they don't already have a history of doing that when they write rules, such as how a Super-Heavy's multiple targeting or Power of the Machine Spirit works with the 7th Edition Shooting Sequence after they changed it.

 CryonicCenobyte wrote:
The wording of the rule absolutely supports it, and again you're being intentionally dense and getting on my nerves. I can't abide cheaters, it's just pathetic.

The wording is, VERBATIM, "cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deploy".

Deployment ONLY HAPPENS at the start of the game, so that part of the rule cannot be applying to the cases where you ambush from Reserve.

The rule says the TURN THEY DEPLOY, meaning deployment MUST happen during a turn.

You cannot move turn 1 if you deployed with Cult Ambush. Period. Period. Arguing otherwise is a despicable demonstration of trying to cheat for advantage and the people who do that are in direct opposition to the spirit of the game. Cut that **** out.

it looks as if you lost a game, because your opponent used the ca rule and you try to cheat in such a way that that doesn't happen.

As for your argument, you also deploy when you arrive from reserves and because infiltrates happens before turn 1 you can move turn 1.
But I would be happy to follow your interperation, because it makes ca only more powerfull, seeing how it doesn't realy matter who has turn 1, because my army will only come during turn 1