Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi Dakka;
was wondering what people thought as to the viability of Ratling spam in kill team games?

-everyone's packing BS4 Sniper rifles, meaning they shoot better, wound easier, and can move after firing, giving a gargantuan advantage over regulation flashlights.
They come stock with Infiltrate as well, which gives some much needed mobility to a foot based list.
Shoot and scarper lends itself well to dense terrain, taking shots then diving into cover and hopefully/potentially out of line of sight?
Shrouded should be awesome in the dense city terrain we play on regularly.

my group play kill team the way it was designed; on seriously dense terrain, with buildings taking up approx. 75% of the map, and scatter terrain such as fences, barrels & tank traps taking up another 10%?. 4+cover plus the Shrouded bonus that comes stock; seems to create dirt cheap, long range, infiltrating, cover abusing, mobile firing bad-asses at 10pts a piece?

They would be converted guardsmen maybe with a headswap, backpacks, and accessories: but definitely scopes on the lasguns to give a sort of black ops-style aesthetic instead of a hobbit cult feel?

Of course with only 1 elite slot and a maximum unit size of 10, I'm only 50% into my list. any suggestions as to how to best fill the other 100pts would be greatly appreciated? I've been considering Taurox, Chimera or Sentinels (Armoured or Scout), as these would fit the aesthetic nicely, though I also need a 'Leader' and somewhere to throw specialists. Veterans?

Thank you to anyone who takes the time to read and decipher my ramblings!
Any and all advice keenly received and appreciated!

Cheers,
GamerGuy

Can you nab a vehicle of some kind? Vehicles are killer in Kill Teams.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Can you nab a vehicle of some kind? Vehicles are killer in Kill Teams.

Indeed, preferably one with AT capabilities since you lack that in the rest of the list.

Yesterday and today, I played double kill team (Two legal kill teams from the same faction playing as one team) against an Imperial guard team, with 20 Ratlings, and it was a pain in the neck! We played on a couple of Jungle tables and one ruined cityscape table, all with tons of terrain and very few lanes big enough for a rhino. Guerrilla warfare was the name of the game, and the ratlings always had cover. One of his teams had ratlings and a heavy weapon squad. The other had ratlings and Sentinels. The leaders of the first team came from the weapons squad, while the second team used ratlings for specialists.

With the really heavy cover, the sentinels were better than a truck or tank would have been. The small boards and heavy terrain meant that transport wasn't the greatest option, as much of the fighting took place away from the beaten path where a rhino couldn't go. They split with my Chaos team and fought to a close victory over my Dark Angels kill teams. They got into a heck of a battle with some harlequins, though. The harlequins ,with some skyweaver bikes , were as well suited to that type of terrain as the ratlings. The ratlings had the advantage of numbers, but the harlequins were a bit more powerful. In the end, the skyweavers got the best of the sentinels and went after the weapons team. The combination of the skyweavers and the harlequins managed to fight the ratlings to a standstill. Harlequins won both games by one objective point! A better loadout on the weapons team and better luck on the dice may have made a split. (The dice had a crush on one harlequin who just wouldn't die, and ended up scoring the last two points in the game after making five consecutive saves!)

It's hard to translate double kill team into regular kill team, but I would not want to face the weapons team/ratlings combination. The ratling/sentinels would be nasty too. Together, they were really nasty. The ratlings were easy to take down in close combat, but the player did a great job of keeping them out of charge range and sniping opposing units. With the cover, and all of their abilities, the ratlings were close to impossible to take out without having half of the other team spending a whole turn shooting at one ratling. (Even then, sometimes the darned ratling would be alive at the end of the turn!)

I am not an IG player, but I would look at a large unit of ratlings, a 3 man heavy weapons squad and a 6 man special weapons squad. The heavy and special weapons could take care of any big threats and the ratlings can scurry around in cover and pick apart the troops and suits.

If you dropped a ratling or two, and were careful, you could take a special weapons squad, 7 or 8 ratlings and still throw a sentinel in. Ratlings are elite and sentinels are fast attack, so you can mix them If you were really thrifty with upgrades, you could take a heavy weapons team, two sentinels and four or five ratlings? That would be a really nasty kill team, although the second sentinel might not be worth the three or four ratlings it cost.
I play a lot of kill team and double kill team, so it might be worth my picking up some IG stuff and actually playing the Heavy/ratling/sentinel list. One of the fun things about kill team is that it is reasonably cheap to try another faction, compared to a regular army. After watching the IG team win a Double Kill Team yesterday, I think ratlings can be pretty effective. Their big weak spot is template weapons, but you only see a limited amount of them in kill teams. Just use the infiltrate and movement to keep the ratlings spread out and in cover and they will survive. A tau player later referred to them as, "the cockroaches of Kill Team".

I need to adjust my previous post. We just talked about the weekends double kill team meet. Kirk and I agreed that the heavy weapon team had some problems with us. It made for a pretty easy target. Kirk had a vehicle on his team, and the Heavies popped it, but other than that, they were probably the easiest target on the team. We both agreed that the special weapons squad that was on Brian's first version of his kill team a few weeks ago was a better choice. Upon texting him, brian agreed, and he said he will probably be going back to special weapons instead. He also pointed out that a platoon command squad can get you one special weapon and a single heavy weapons team for a fairly small points cost. An infantry squad can get a special weapon and a heavy team, but leaves you with a lot of squishy infantry left over. In kill team, late in the game, any easy kill is often taken in an attempt to break the team. Normally, a unit that is no real threat can hide in the back and be ignored, but in kill team, breaking the opposing team is a pretty useful strategy. Having several easy marks that don't really contribute anything to the offense is probably a liability.

We all agreed that the IG kill team with the ratlings is a good idea, but they need something to punch out a vehicle, walker, or really tough character in power armor. Kirk, who ran my chaos marines, notices that his plague marines could corner ratlings, take a couple of shots and beat them up in CC. I used the agility and 3+ save of my assault squad to take out a few by ambushing and assaulting, but it took two or three to surround or corner them and there were just too many ratlings and not enough turns to finish the job.

The other trick Brian used with his IG army was to park the Heavy Weapon team on an objective. Having two wounds, and being able to shoot at anybody who was getting close enough to assault the next turn made them kind of hard to remove. With no threat in kill team from flyers or big tanks, they pretty much guaranteed two turns before being removed, and they would often take out the unit that put the first wound on them.

Later in the week, four or five of us will play the other form of double kill team. This one features kill teams that are fully independent. It might be a better way to evaluate a single kill team. I will have two different Dark Angels teams, Kirk will have a Chaos team and maybe some tau. Cathie will have her Harlequins, Her daughter will run the other half of her harlequins. She also has a nasty Dark Eldar team, but they might not come out. Brian will have his IG team there and we have a couple of other people threatening to show up. The new guy is frantically painting up genestealers and 'nids, but they might not be ready. Two of us have the Kill Team box, and we are both trying to figure out how to add some crisis or stealth suits to the fire warriors. (None of us actually owns any, so we have Kirk stopping at three different game shops on his way up to see what tau he can add to our teams.) One of the Hospice nurses with my Mother also has a Deathwatch team that she wants to try out. We will probably have several different battles over the next few days. If we can, we will try to sneak some regular kill team battles in among the doubles. (Although the other form of double, with the independent teams actually gives you a pretty good look at a kill team.)

The independent or "Split team" doubles has two players being teamed up against two other players each round. It is a round robin format where you are paired with a different partner each round. This can result in some unfluffy combinations, though, as the first time I played this, we drew our numbers for the first match and we had chaos marines and harlequins vs. deathwatch and orks. My Dark Angels were once teamed up with chaos daemons fighting IG and chaos marines! We have a hard time making a narrative for some of these games, but they do feature each team taking its own turns, alternating between the sides. The players cooperate, but the teams don't augment each other, or get to cast spells that affect each other. Each team retains its own leaders. One team in a partnership can be broken without affecting the other.

I will try to get some single kill team games against Brian's IG and maybe let him test a couple of changes before we get to the big mashup. I think he may want to try out the platoon command squad. I was just running some numbers. You could take a platoon command squad with a heavy weapon team and a lascannon, or a heavy team with an autocannon and another guy with a Melta for a total of 50 pts. (If you took both the lascannon and a Melta, that would be 60)

With the 50 point squad, you could take an armored sentinel and 10 ratlings. You could also take a regular sentinel and give your commander a nice melee weapon. With the 60 point squad, you are limited to one open top sentinel and a 5 pt. upgrade. If you drop two ratlings, you could take two sentinels and no other upgrades.

I think an autocannon and a melta, eight ratlings and two sentinels would make a nasty kill team in the right hands. On our smaller tables, you can footslog, and use the ratlings to go ahead. Camp the infantry and the heavy team on close objectives, and use the big guns to punish anything that gets close enough to hurt you. Having an S8 weapon is nice if the opponent has something like a rhino, as you should be able to get a pen within a shot or two.

8 Rattlings 80
3 Armoured Sentinals w/multi laser 120

200

8 BS4 snipers

3 AV12 vehilces with 3 str6 shots each

str 6 is plenty for Kill teams and the vehicles you will face.

Sentinels are my least favorite thing to deal with in Killteam games lol. SO, I'd recommend as many of those as you can get.

I wouldn't be too worried about the ratlings, just because I field Deathwawtch and have access to ignore cover ammo... but the Sentinels are a big problem, and I think they would be for most people!

I also think that where the ratlings would be undefended against cc armies, the Sentinels become insanely good metal chickens, scratching about in cc... yeah, I hate Sentinels ... take 3!

Thanks guys; I'm overwhelmed with the volume and quality of your comments, all sincerely appreciated!

If I miss anything you have my apologies, though I'll try to address everything ?

-Kill Team Vehicles are INSANE. but due to the equally insane confines of the map we're playing a lot recently; their manoeuvrability is very much hindered. the efficiency of their firepower likewise is lessened where cover is so ridiculously abundant. like; its almost a display board, the sorta thing you might see in a GW store? so so so dense; so I'm probably going to rely on armour as little as possible. though scout sentinels with heavy flamers have a real appeal. ooh yeah they could be dirty.

GoblinChow- man I appreciate the effort and depth in your response so much! -are you playing HOR kill team? cause by GWs rule set you can't take the HWS or SWS independent from a platoon?? unless I'm overlooking something important?

Mixer86, list appreciated /bro?? (I don't like to assume) -Though there's no characters in that list rendering it illegal by GWs ruleset. nice concept though! scout sentinels instead have an appeal due to infiltrating shenanigans?

xTHExCLINCHERx your contribution is appreciated; deathwatch are gonna be hella common with them being so new and shiny and exactly-the-mission-type esk?

-What are your feelings on a platoon? at 130minimum 25 guys with orders makes for quite a dynamic presence.

FW anyone? was considering an Autocannon chimera; as the conversion would be sweet to work on? but again the map means that it would spend its turns trundling around the outskirts of the map unable to get into the core complex and taking pot-shots...

you want some ratlings ..back them up with a group of Vets and some sentinals

Mabey something like this
7 Ratlings

Veterans foward sentry
4 Las rifle 3 grenade launchers,Autocannon team ..Sarge

1 scout sentinal with heavy flamer


This group can deal with most things

I am loving this thread some good points on it to take into consideration. I am going to a kill team tournament in two weeks my list is

Vet squad
Autocannon
Grenade launcher
Flamer
Bolter
Chimera

Armoured sentinel

I had some test games on Sunday against tau. He didn't do evil tau lists but he couldn't touch my armour, av 12 is ridiculous in kill team. I drove the chimera up the middle of the board and was firing at 5 different targets a turn.

I am still 14 points under anyone have any suggestions?
Is forward sentries worth it?

Another list I was looking at was
Platoon command squad
Autocannon

2x infantry squads

Conscripts

This gives you 44 bodies running around the board
Very few teams will be able to deal with them numbers :-) you might be screwed when a vehicle pops up but even that can't kill enough?

You know, I'd never thought of having a stress on Ratlings and I'm starting to wonder why I never thought it. I'd totally just model them as crouched sniper Guardsmen, I don't like anything about the actual Ratlings look or fluff-wise.

I think I'd try this as a list:

5 Ratlings - 50 pts
Veteran squad w/forward sentries and 2 plasma guns - 100
Armored Sentinel w/plasma cannon - 50 pts

Useless Sidekick wrote:
I am loving this thread some good points on it to take into consideration. I am going to a kill team tournament in two weeks my list is

Vet squad
Autocannon
Grenade launcher
Flamer
Bolter
Chimera

Armoured sentinel

I had some test games on Sunday against tau. He didn't do evil tau lists but he couldn't touch my armour, av 12 is ridiculous in kill team. I drove the chimera up the middle of the board and was firing at 5 different targets a turn.

I am still 14 points under anyone have any suggestions?
Is forward sentries worth it?

Another list I was looking at was
Platoon command squad
Autocannon

2x infantry squads

Conscripts

This gives you 44 bodies running around the board
Very few teams will be able to deal with them numbers :-) you might be screwed when a vehicle pops up but even that can't kill enough?

For your tournament list you're lacking some decent AP but hey if it worked well then it's probably solid! If you don't change up your special weapons for a plasma gun or something you may as well take forward sentries. I mean it's the one gametype short of cities of death that has a ton of terrain, may as well make your Vets harder to kill.

Honestly the real problem with running a horde list is that all your enemy needs to do is run a vehicle and you're toast. I mean the strongest weapon in that list is an autocannon which is decent but I imagine an opponent would prioritize and get it off the board as quickly as he can. Not to mention flamers are a popular choice, and vanilla Guardsmen don't stand up very well to other factions' grunts.

I mean the key to the IG is variety. Maybe have a bulk of meatshield conscripts and use your PCS for special weapons then stick an armored sentinel in there and sprinkle a few Elites (Like Ratlings!) on top and you should have a decent and numbers-heavy KT.

I know I am lacking some decent ap weapons but like you said it's terrain heavy so a smart marine player will keep his models in terrain. I was thinking like a guardsman, more shots more wounds. And putting a plasma guns on a single guardsman is quite risky.

The worst armour I can come up against is av12 and the autocannon and multi lasers should be enough to glance it to death.

The Ratlings are a very good idea we can make an additional 100 point list and swap it out so I might do this extra 100pts as Ratlings?

If you want to do a full ratling squad, I would suggest:

10 Ratlings
1 Veteran Squad (naked)
1 Scout Sentinel with autocannon

A lot of sniper rifles, 20 bodies and a light vehicle, and decent AT, especially if you can position yourself to hit AV10 side or rear armor. I personally would drop 2 ratlings to upgrade the sentinel to armored and have 15 points for better weapons or improved cover saves on the vets.

I have to say though, I love how IG and underused units like Sentinels are suddenly actually kind of competitive in KT.

We are fairly new to 40k. We are probably messing up the rules a bit. There was a list of units for Kill team on a website and the Platoon Command Squad was on the list, so we thought it was okay. We will have to figure out a way to replace that.

I am looking through the GW kill team rules trying to figure out where we have to have a character. It says the leader has to be the character with the highest leadership but goes on to say if you don't have a character, then it is the model with the highest leadership. I will try to figure that one out. I was starting to think that using all of the points towards ratlings and sentinels might be the best way to run a kill team. I just wasn't sure how well it would work to have ratlings as leaders.

We will be testing a couple of configurations against Chaos Marines and Dark Angels this afternoon and evening, and we may even give the harlequins a go at them.

 GamerGuy wrote:
Hi Dakka;
was wondering what people thought as to the viability of Ratling spam in kill team games?

-everyone's packing BS4 Sniper rifles, meaning they shoot better, wound easier, and can move after firing, giving a gargantuan advantage over regulation flashlights.
They come stock with Infiltrate as well, which gives some much needed mobility to a foot based list.
Shoot and scarper lends itself well to dense terrain, taking shots then diving into cover and hopefully/potentially out of line of sight?
Shrouded should be awesome in the dense city terrain we play on regularly.

my group play kill team the way it was designed; on seriously dense terrain, with buildings taking up approx. 75% of the map, and scatter terrain such as fences, barrels & tank traps taking up another 10%?. 4+cover plus the Shrouded bonus that comes stock; seems to create dirt cheap, long range, infiltrating, cover abusing, mobile firing bad-asses at 10pts a piece?

They would be converted guardsmen maybe with a headswap, backpacks, and accessories: but definitely scopes on the lasguns to give a sort of black ops-style aesthetic instead of a hobbit cult feel?

Of course with only 1 elite slot and a maximum unit size of 10, I'm only 50% into my list. any suggestions as to how to best fill the other 100pts would be greatly appreciated? I've been considering Taurox, Chimera or Sentinels (Armoured or Scout), as these would fit the aesthetic nicely, though I also need a 'Leader' and somewhere to throw specialists. Veterans?

Thank you to anyone who takes the time to read and decipher my ramblings!
Any and all advice keenly received and appreciated!

Cheers,
GamerGuy

Just keep in mind some armies will not be hurting for Ignore Cover shots, which will chew you up. When you do have to break test, your army is basically done since Ratling have a horrible Ld6.

Everything that does shoot at them will be wounding on 2's, as well. That means high volume shooting from mob armies, like Orks, IG, Tau, and even Rapid Fire Bolters, will force you to make lots of saves - eventually failing.

The suggestions I see are good, generally. Veterans are a good option - as you can kit them with Camo Cloaks and Defensive Grenades on the cheap and load them with lots of special weapons. They can also take a Chimera, which with AV12 front, solid firepower, and the allowance of two dudes to shoot from within, it seems a solid choice overall.

Not a fan of Sentinels, as they are fragile. I guess if you take a bunch, it can help, but I feel most armies are going to come back enough S7+ weapons to make them a liability more than a boon.

Defensive Grenades on Vets are very very good. A friend always takes those on vets in a chimera and it's an excellent unit in Killteam games. Pair that with a Sentinel and some Ratlings sounds good!