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It is known that Tau rail weapons (other than the Rail Rifle on Pathfinders) are suboptimal, due to power creep and the fact that single shot weapons just aren't good anymore. Instead of taking the low road and making them D, I propose the following.

Railgun:
R72" S10 AP1 Primary Weapon 1, Hypervelocity

Heavy Rail Rifle:
R60" S8 AP1 Rapid Fire, Hypervelocity

Hypervelocity -
A weapon with this special rule deals D3 wounds to the targeted model instead of 1 on a failed save. Against vehicles, on a penetrating hit a weapon with this special rule deals D3 HP of damage instead of 1.

Addenda to High Yield Missile Pod profile-
Make the following alteration to the weapon profile.
R36" S7 AP4 Salvo 2/4

On the XV88 Broadside profile, add eight points to the cost of taking this upgrade.

Some misc Quality of Life changes, mostly geared around making Tau less annoying.

Addendum to Ghostkeel and Riptide profiles

Add the "Heavy Battlesuit" special rule.

Heavy Battlesuit - "Any model with this special rule must roll 2D6 and pick the highest single result for the purposes of determining jetpack move distance.


Addenda to Riptide profile -

Remove Riptide Shield Generator from Wargear list

Replace the Nova Reactor special rule with the following, and add the Reactor Override special rule.

Nova Reactor - "A model with this special rule begins each turn with six Reactor Points. A Reactor Point is expended when any of the following actions are performed.
•Movement (1 Reactor Point)
•Firing Primary Weapon (1 Reactor Point)
•Firing Secondary Weapon (1 Reactor Point)
•Firing Overwatch (1 Reactor Point)
•Performing a Jet Pack thrust move (1 Reactor Point)
•Activating shield generator (the model gains a 5+ Invulnerable Save until the beginning of the next turn) (1 Reactor Point)

The model may choose to perform one of the following Nova-Charged action at the cost of the specified number of Reactor Points. The model may not perform two Nova-Charged actions in the same turn.
•Nova Shield - The model gains a 3+ Invulnerable save. The model may not activate its shield generator in the same turn that this action is performed. (3 Reactor Points)
•Ripple Fire - The model may fire its secondary weapon twice. Despite being fired twice, using this power only counts as firing one weapon. May only be used if the Riptide expended a point to fire its secondary weapon. (1 Reactor Point)
•Nova-Charge - The model may use its primary weapon's alternate firing mode. (2 Reactor Points)
•Boost - The model may roll 3D6 and add the result together for the purposes of determining Jet Pack move distance. (2 Reactor Points)

Reactor Override-
A model with the Nova Reactor special rule may choose to perform a reactor override to add any number of additional Reactor Points. The model immediately takes a number of S5 AP2 hits equal to the number of Reactor Points added. The model may take invulnerable saves against these wounds, counting any invulnerable save above 5+ as 5+.. A model must choose to perform a Reactor Override before any Reactor Point consuming actions are performed by the model."

Make the following alterations to the profile of the Ion Accelerator and Heavy Burst Cannon.

Ion Accelerator
Standard Mode - R42", S7 AP2 Heavy 3
Nova-Charge Mode - R42", S9 AP2 Ordnance 1, Large Blast

Heavy Burst Cannon
Standard Mode - R36", S6 AP4 Heavy 8
Nova-Charge Mode - R36", S6 AP4 Heavy 15, Rending

Addendum to Markerlights-

Replace the Scour action with the following.

Scour - "-1 cover on the targeted unit per Markerlight token expended.


Addendum to Smart Missile Systems -

On the Hammerhead and Devilfish profile, add five points to the cost of taking this option.

It doesn't seem bad... But I'd nerf the OP stuff before buffing the weaker stuff. That's just so people will actually want to play against it. No one wants to play against Buffed-Up Tau, but people would gladly play Nerfed Tau.

So make rail weapons D but without the 6 result? Sure. Seems reasonable. I've seen similar suggestions posted before. I actually really like the idea of giving a similar rule to more dedicated anti-tank weapons.


Currently, quantity of mid-strength fire is preferable to low-volume high-quality fire. This is because high-volume fire is more likely to hull point out a target and is also good against most non-vehicle units (and most MCs) while high-quality fire is usually worse against non-vehicles (though not necessarily worse against MCs) and is basically fishing for Explodes results against vehicles.

So giving things like krak missiles, rail weapons, maybe bright lances, etc. a rule that causes them to inflict multiple penetrating hits makes them better at hull pointing out vehicles and makes them more likely to explode a thing.

Some misc Quality of Life changes, mostly geared around making Tau less annoying.

Addendum to Ghostkeel and Riptide profiles

Add the "Heavy Battlesuit" special rule.

Heavy Battlesuit - "Any model with this special rule may only roll 1D6 for determining Jet Pack move distances."


Addenda to Riptide profile -

Remove Riptide Shield Generator from Wargear list

Replace the Nova Reactor special rule with the following, and add the Reactor Override special rule.

Nova Reactor - "A model with this special rule begins each turn with five Reactor Points. A Reactor Point is expended when any of the following actions are performed.
•Movement (1 Reactor Point)
•Firing Primary Weapon (1 Reactor Point)
•Firing Secondary Weapon (1 Reactor Point)
•Firing Overwatch (1 Reactor Point)
•Performing a Jet Pack thrust move (1 Reactor Point)
•Activating shield generator (the model gains a 5+ Invulnerable Save until the beginning of the next turn) (1 Reactor Point)

The model may choose to perform one of the following Nova-Charged action at the cost of the specified number of Reactor Points. The model may not perform two Nova-Charged actions in the same turn.
•Nova Shield - The model gains a 3+ Invulnerable save. The model may not activate its shield generator in the same turn that this action is performed. (3 Reactor Points)
•Ripple Fire - The model may fire its secondary weapon twice. Despite being fired twice, using this power only counts as firing one weapon. May only be used if the Riptide expended a point to fire its secondary weapon. (1 Reactor Point)
•Nova-Charge - The model may use its primary weapon's alternate firing mode. (2 Reactor Points)
•Boost - The model may roll 3D6 for the purposes of determining Jet Pack move distance. (2 Reactor Points)

Reactor Override-
A model with the Nova Reactor special rule may choose to perform a reactor override to add any number of additional Reactor Points. The model immediately takes a number of S9 AP2 hits equal to the number of Reactor Points added. No saves of any kind may be taken against these hits. A model must choose to perform a Reactor Override before any Reactor Point consuming actions are performed by the model."

Make the following alterations to the profile of the Ion Accelerator and Heavy Burst Cannon.

Ion Accelerator
Standard Mode - R36", S7 AP2 Heavy 3
Nova-Charge Mode - R36", S9 AP2 Ordnance 1, Large Blast

Heavy Burst Cannon
Standard Mode - R36", S6 AP4 Heavy 8
Nova-Charge Mode - R36", S6 AP4 Heavy 15, Rending

Addendum to Markerlights-

Replace the Scour action with the following.

Scour - "-1 cover on the targeted unit per Markerlight token expended.


Addendum to Smart Missile Systems -

Remove the "Homing" special rule.

 Verviedi wrote:
Some misc Quality of Life changes, mostly geared around making Tau less annoying.

Addendum to Ghostkeel and Riptide profiles

Add the "Heavy Battlesuit" special rule.

Heavy Battlesuit - "Any model with this special rule may only roll 1D6 for determining Jet Pack move distances."

You do realize that the Iridium Armor had this rule in 4th, and it was dropped in the 6th ed Codex?

Just because a change was made, does not mean that the change was intelligent. These are GW codex writers we're talking about.
My justification for that rule is nerfing the frankly obnoxious ability for giant Riptides to jump through walls just as well as the small, agile Crisis Suit. Iridium Armor is borderline. On one hand, the change would make sense. On another, it would break squads of vanilla Crisis Suits with an attached Iridium Commander.

 Verviedi wrote:
It is known that Tau rail weapons (other than the Rail Rifle on Pathfinders) are suboptimal, due to power creep and the fact that single shot weapons just aren't good anymore. Instead of taking the low road and making them D, I propose the following.

Railgun:
R72" S10 AP1 Ordnance 1, Hypervelocity

Heavy Rail Rifle:
R60" S8 AP1 Ordnance 1, Hypervelocity

Hypervelocity -
A weapon with this special rule deals D3 wounds to the targeted model instead of 1 on a failed save. Against vehicles, on a penetrating hit a weapon with this special rule deals D3 HP of damage instead of 1.

This could be paired with a 5 point increase on points on Broadsides, and a 10 point increase on Hammerheads. This is a part of one of my projects, making Tau tolerable to play against by nerfing obnoxious stuff, and buffing weaker stuff.

Not a bad idea, though I'd suggest Primary Weapon rather than Ordnance, to avoid making the secondary weapon irrelevant. For Broadsides, I'd actually say that a Primary Weapon HRR could stay free, if the HYMP then cost 15 points to upgrade to: it's a spamgun, and as such it's by far the more popular option right now.

jade_angel wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
It is known that Tau rail weapons (other than the Rail Rifle on Pathfinders) are suboptimal, due to power creep and the fact that single shot weapons just aren't good anymore. Instead of taking the low road and making them D, I propose the following.

Railgun:
R72" S10 AP1 Ordnance 1, Hypervelocity

Heavy Rail Rifle:
R60" S8 AP1 Ordnance 1, Hypervelocity

Hypervelocity -
A weapon with this special rule deals D3 wounds to the targeted model instead of 1 on a failed save. Against vehicles, on a penetrating hit a weapon with this special rule deals D3 HP of damage instead of 1.

This could be paired with a 5 point increase on points on Broadsides, and a 10 point increase on Hammerheads. This is a part of one of my projects, making Tau tolerable to play against by nerfing obnoxious stuff, and buffing weaker stuff.

Not a bad idea, though I'd suggest Primary Weapon rather than Ordnance, to avoid making the secondary weapon irrelevant. For Broadsides, I'd actually say that a Primary Weapon HRR could stay free, if the HYMP then cost 15 points to upgrade to: it's a spamgun, and as such it's by far the more popular option right now.

Currently, the SMS is standard wargear, with 5 pt upgrade to TL plasma rifle. So what would you give them as "standard" war gear to replace it? its not like broadsides are overpowered.

 Verviedi wrote:
Some misc Quality of Life changes, mostly geared around making Tau less annoying.
<snip>
Addenda to Riptide profile -

Remove Riptide Shield Generator from Wargear list

Replace the Nova Reactor special rule with the following.

Nova Reactor - "A model with this special rule begins each turn with five Reactor Points. A Reactor Point is expended when any of the following actions are performed.
•Movement (1 Reactor Point)
•Firing Primary Weapon (1 Reactor Point)
•Firing Secondary Weapon (1 Reactor Point)
•Firing Overwatch (1 Reactor Point)
•Performing a Jet Pack thrust move (1 Reactor Point)
•Activating shield generator (the model gains a 5+ Invulnerable Save until the beginning of the next turn) (1 Reactor Point)

The model may choose to perform one of the following Nova-Charged action at the cost of the specified number of Reactor Points. The model may not perform two Nova-Charged actions in the same turn.
•Nova Shield - The model gains a 3+ Invulnerable save. The model may not activate its shield generator in the same turn that this action is performed. (3 Reactor Points)
•Ripple Fire - The model may fire its secondary weapon twice. Despite being fired twice, using this power only counts as firing one weapon. May only be used if the Riptide expended a point to fire its secondary weapon. (1 Reactor Point)
•Nova-Charge - The model may use its primary weapon's alternate firing mode. (2 Reactor Points)
•Boost - The model may roll 3D6 for the purposes of determining Jet Pack move distance. (2 Reactor Points)

A model with the Nova Reactor special rule may choose to perform a reactor override to add any number of additional Reactor Points. The model immediately takes a number of S9 AP2 hits equal to the number of Reactor Points added. No saves of any kind may be taken against these hits. A model must choose to perform a Reactor Override before any Reactor Point consuming actions are performed by the model."

Make the following alterations to the profile of the Ion Accelerator and Heavy Burst Cannon.

Ion Accelerator
Standard Mode - R36", S7 AP3 Heavy 3
Nova-Charge Mode - R36", S9 AP2 Ordnance 1, Large Blast

Heavy Burst Cannon
Standard Mode - R36", S6 AP5 Heavy 6
Nova-Charge Mode - R36", S6 AP4 Heavy 12, Rending
<snip>

I really like most of those changes. I think the Nova Reactor change, though, is both irritating to keep track of and extremely punitive, if I'm reading it right. You not only have very limited actions per turn, but you take a lascannon hit for moving, shooting, etc? I've got to be reading that wrong.

For the ion accelerator - I'm not sure what I think there. It's the only ion weapon that doesn't have an overcharged mode, which is a little odd fluffwise, but I think I get where you're going here mechanically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pumaman1 wrote:

jade_angel wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
It is known that Tau rail weapons (other than the Rail Rifle on Pathfinders) are suboptimal, due to power creep and the fact that single shot weapons just aren't good anymore. Instead of taking the low road and making them D, I propose the following.

Railgun:
R72" S10 AP1 Ordnance 1, Hypervelocity

Heavy Rail Rifle:
R60" S8 AP1 Ordnance 1, Hypervelocity

Hypervelocity -
A weapon with this special rule deals D3 wounds to the targeted model instead of 1 on a failed save. Against vehicles, on a penetrating hit a weapon with this special rule deals D3 HP of damage instead of 1.

This could be paired with a 5 point increase on points on Broadsides, and a 10 point increase on Hammerheads. This is a part of one of my projects, making Tau tolerable to play against by nerfing obnoxious stuff, and buffing weaker stuff.

Not a bad idea, though I'd suggest Primary Weapon rather than Ordnance, to avoid making the secondary weapon irrelevant. For Broadsides, I'd actually say that a Primary Weapon HRR could stay free, if the HYMP then cost 15 points to upgrade to: it's a spamgun, and as such it's by far the more popular option right now.

Currently, the SMS is standard wargear, with 5 pt upgrade to TL plasma rifle. So what would you give them as "standard" war gear to replace it? its not like broadsides are overpowered.

I was talking about the High Yield Missile Pod, not the SMS. That can stay, I think. The HYMP deserves a bit of a cost bump, though, because of its ability to deliver high volumes of S7 fire with high accuracy (since it's twin-linked). The SMS is good, but it doesn't need a cost increase. In fact, the TL plasma rifle probably ought to be free too.

You read it wrong. You get five actions per turn. You can add RPs to do more actions, but you take a lascannon hit for each RP you add.
If I needed to add an Overcharge mode, it would be two S7 AP2 small blasts.
Cost bump for HYMP is a good idea, I can edit the post to accomodate for that.

The HYMP is 36" range, which puts it in las cannon range, which means it can be ID'd out easily. Toughness 4 on a dreadnought size base is a problem. And they aren't relentless. 15 points for HYMP and relentless, I would be down.

I could just make HYMP Assault 4, instead of Heavy 4, and make it cost 15 points. S7 spam is an issue, and both weapons should be viable.

 Verviedi wrote:
I could just make HYMP Assault 4, instead of Heavy 4, and make it cost 15 points. S7 spam is an issue, and both weapons should be viable.

Yeah, Assault 4 is good, with a cost bump. Take that and the plasma rifle and now you have a Broadside that can move and keep up with Fire Warriors, etc. Not bad.

As far as the ion accelerator overcharge mode, I see why you left it out. Now you can't splatter a Marine squad with Interceptor without using the nova-charge. And even at that, the range is shorter. I think it's actually fine without an overcharge mode. Fluffwise, one could say that the nova mode is the overcharged mode, it's just more powerful and more reliable, at the cost of draining a fair bit of juice.

Ok, the reactor makes more sense now.

I have a planned EWO patch that makes all Interceptor shots fired using EWO shoot at -2 Ballistic Skill, to compensate for the ability for Tau to spam so much EWO.

Yay... bs1 interceptor because tau are bs3 across the board barring HQ's and Tanks..

And we also have Intercepting markerlights due to Drone Net VX1-0.
The logic behind it is that you should be firing at the people who just fell out of orbit behind you at the same BS you're firing at the people who are running towards you with legs. Interceptor as a whole is a bit flawed, and should be fired at a ballistic skill penalty. Maybe -1 BS would be reasonable, but starting at -2 is definitely safer.

So with 16 intercepting marker lights, we have up to 2.5 hits. so that boosts 1 units intercept up to 3 or 4. and no markerlights left to shoot in your own shooting phase

The problem is, a drop pod wouldn't be that hard to intercept. its a ballistic course, a targeting computer could probably do it in as much time as it takes to travel 100 feet.

Teleportation in via the warp is much harder to explain. But would be easier to adjust EWO to be through non-teleportation deep-strike. But that means deep-strike has to get a bit more precise with what it means.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am not opposed to some changes, just to be clear. I just want it to be fully thought out in relation to the entire game, and the top tier, which Tau is considered by most, even though we haven't taken a major tourney yet.

You're right about the markerlight issue. Deep Strike really does some need some granularity.

The main things I'm trying to do are these.
•Nerf the ability for Tau to completely neuter drop podding units.
•Increase realism and generally make Tau interceptor less annoying.

Possible solutions are raising the price of EWO, or adding a BS penalty to Interceptor.

 Verviedi wrote:
You're right about the markerlight issue. Deep Strike really does some need some granularity.

The main things I'm trying to do are these.
•Nerf the ability for Tau to completely neuter drop podding units.
•Increase realism and generally make Tau interceptor less annoying.

Possible solutions are raising the price of EWO, or adding a BS penalty to Interceptor.

It's a fair point to say that Tau Interceptor is annoying, though I think it's also a fair counterpoint to say that Tau are particularly in need of Interceptor due to the more common prevalence of assault-from-deepstrike mechanics.

Intercept is one of the few defenses Tau reasonably have against those sorts of mechanics, and effectively reducing their effectiveness by a 1/3 (when Intercept already merely shifts that model's shooting phase from the player's Shooting to the opponent's Movement) seems particularly harsh in the face of a special rule bonanza meta.

Singling Tau out to have the worst Interceptor rules available on the basis that

The logic behind it is that you should be firing at the people who just fell out of orbit behind you at the same BS you're firing at the people who are running towards you with legs. Interceptor as a whole is a bit flawed, and should be fired at a ballistic skill penalty. Maybe -1 BS would be reasonable, but starting at -2 is definitely safer.

is punishing a single child for the flaw of a school's grading system when that child happens to have more opportunities to benefit from that system.

If your issue is with Interceptor being able to fire accurately at deepstriking units, then you should not be singling out a SINGLE faction's interceptor to receive the nerf, but should instead nerf the Interceptor rule as a whole.



That said, Tau do have extremely cheap, extremely prevalent access to the Interceptor rule, and as you said, there is more than one way to skin a grox. Your suggestion of increasing the cost of Interceptor is certainly one possibility.

Another possibility is to remove the EWO option entirely, but grant your more restrictive Interceptor ability as part of the baseline suit - that is, every battlesuit has Interceptor by default, without purchasing any gear, but shoots at -2 BS. If that's too drastic, you could reintroduce the EWO (again, at a higher cost than now) as an upgraded version of that ability which grants true Interceptor.

That would allow our Interceptor Markerlight access to remain undisturbed (as the Drone Net's formation grants the Interceptor rule, not wargear), gives Tau a ubiquitous ability to respond to Deepstriking (which the Tau do need, given how utterly horrendous we are in melee), but makes that response much more costly (in terms of either near-required ML support or needing triple the previous levels of firepower, both of which will not be available in the Tau player's next Shooting phase) and consequently a more difficult decision to make.

Verviedi wrote:It is known that Tau rail weapons (other than the Rail Rifle on Pathfinders) are suboptimal, due to power creep and the fact that single shot weapons just aren't good anymore. Instead of taking the low road and making them D, I propose the following.

Railgun:
R72" S10 AP1 Ordnance 1, Hypervelocity

Heavy Rail Rifle:
R60" S8 AP1 Ordnance 1, Hypervelocity

Hypervelocity -
A weapon with this special rule deals D3 wounds to the targeted model instead of 1 on a failed save. Against vehicles, on a penetrating hit a weapon with this special rule deals D3 HP of damage instead of 1.

This could be paired with a 15 point increase for HYMP on Broadsides, and no point increase on Hammerheads. This is a part of one of my projects, making Tau tolerable to play against by nerfing obnoxious stuff, and buffing weaker stuff.

I think Hammerhead Railguns would be an appropriate place for Hypervelocity, but I'm not sure Broadside Heavy Rail Rifles need that significant of a boost (though they certainly do need a boost, because they aren't terribly effective as is, even when not compared to the HYMP).

I think it would be far more appropriate to make the HRR into a Rapid-fire weapon. That makes it at least somewhat more comparable to the HYMP in the HYMP's range (30 versus 36, 2 shots versus 4), still has usefulness beyond the HYMP's bubble range, and has added maneuverability compared to the HYMP, and doesn't interfere with other weapons shooting (though the suggested Primary Weapon suggestion would fix this, I'm hesitant to give infantry a weapon in that Category - that's always been, in my mind, the purview of SHV, SHV, and GMC, which would include, at best, the largest of Walkers, Vehicles, and MCs).

A bump to the HYMP's price seems warranted, but 15 seems steep. 5 to 10 seem more appropriate. As long as Broadsides remain as relatively fragile as they are, anyway - a general boost in broadside durability by giving them T5 and/or another would (itself worth a slight cost increase) could justify a 15 point HYMP cost.

Verviedi wrote:Some misc Quality of Life changes, mostly geared around making Tau less annoying.

Addendum to Ghostkeel and Riptide profiles

Add the "Heavy Battlesuit" special rule.

Heavy Battlesuit - "Any model with this special rule may only roll 1D6 for determining Jet Pack move distances."


Addenda to Riptide profile -

Remove Riptide Shield Generator from Wargear list

Replace the Nova Reactor special rule with the following, and add the Reactor Override special rule.

Nova Reactor - "A model with this special rule begins each turn with five Reactor Points. A Reactor Point is expended when any of the following actions are performed.
•Movement (1 Reactor Point)
•Firing Primary Weapon (1 Reactor Point)
•Firing Secondary Weapon (1 Reactor Point)
•Firing Overwatch (1 Reactor Point)
•Performing a Jet Pack thrust move (1 Reactor Point)
•Activating shield generator (the model gains a 5+ Invulnerable Save until the beginning of the next turn) (1 Reactor Point)

The model may choose to perform one of the following Nova-Charged action at the cost of the specified number of Reactor Points. The model may not perform two Nova-Charged actions in the same turn.
•Nova Shield - The model gains a 3+ Invulnerable save. The model may not activate its shield generator in the same turn that this action is performed. (3 Reactor Points)
•Ripple Fire - The model may fire its secondary weapon twice. Despite being fired twice, using this power only counts as firing one weapon. May only be used if the Riptide expended a point to fire its secondary weapon. (1 Reactor Point)
•Nova-Charge - The model may use its primary weapon's alternate firing mode. (2 Reactor Points)
•Boost - The model may roll 3D6 for the purposes of determining Jet Pack move distance. (2 Reactor Points)

Reactor Override-
A model with the Nova Reactor special rule may choose to perform a reactor override to add any number of additional Reactor Points. The model immediately takes a number of S9 AP2 hits equal to the number of Reactor Points added. No saves of any kind may be taken against these hits. A model must choose to perform a Reactor Override before any Reactor Point consuming actions are performed by the model."

Make the following alterations to the profile of the Ion Accelerator and Heavy Burst Cannon.

Ion Accelerator
Standard Mode - R36", S7 AP3 Heavy 3
Nova-Charge Mode - R36", S9 AP2 Ordnance 1, Large Blast

Heavy Burst Cannon
Standard Mode - R36", S6 AP5 Heavy 6
Nova-Charge Mode - R36", S6 AP4 Heavy 12, Rending

Addendum to Markerlights-

Replace the Scour action with the following.

Scour - "-1 cover on the targeted unit per Markerlight token expended.


Addendum to Smart Missile Systems -

Remove the "Homing" special rule.

RE: Heavy Battlesuit

I'm not a fan. You're again singling out, for fluff reasons (that you are frankly misconstruing - these experimental MC battlesuits use exceptionally LIGHT, and concurrently, exceptionally rare/difficult/expensive materials for their armoring), large Tau battlesuits, when your fluff issue seems to be with the concept of mobile MC-sized models as a whole. Flying and Jump pack MCs are no less agile or fast on the tabletop as their infantry brethren, and given the Tau fluff explicitly calls out the MC battlesuit armors as being particularly light in comparison, you seem to be nerfing for the sake of nerfing.

On the "realism" side of the argument, we have been making relatively maneuverable jets/planes for years. Only recently have we seen personal jetpacks that might compare, and those tend to be of significantly lower flight time in comparison. Riptides and Ghosttides aren't relying on a crisis suit sized energy source, but rather a larger (and consequently, generally more space-efficient) engine to power their systems.

I get that JSJ can be annoying, but it's also a bit of a necessity for the function of these units - they don't have the CQC capability necessary to make this nerf acceptable.

RE: Nova Generator changes

This seems extremely complicated - almost like adding a mini Psyker Subsystem just for a single unit.

This is not to say Riptides don't need to be rebalanced somewhat, but this increases bookkeeping significantly.

Personally, I'd rather see some sort of penalty to systems after they've been overcharged, as we see in the R'varna in Forgeworld - sure, you can Nova Charge and put out immense firepower THIS turn, but your firepower is going to be limited the next turn.

For the Shield boost, you could end up with a -1 or -2 to your Invulnerability save during your following turn (making concurrent turns of turtle mode less effective over time). For the Ripple Fire, you could disallow shooting that weapon the following turn (fluff-wise, replacing ammo and the like) or remove its Twin-linked profile. For the increased JSJ distance, you could restrict the Riptide to 1d6 instead of 2d6 on the following turn.

In making the Riptide less annoying, you don't want to go so far as to make it annoying/painful/frustrating for the TAU player to take the unit.

That said, the Riptide is its own special snowflake of hatred, fury, and annoyance, so trying to get too deep into it would be problematic. My main suggestion is to either implement only SOME of your suggestions (so as not to nerf the Riptide into uselessness/unplayability) and/or significantly simplify your suggested Nova Generator rules.

RE: Riptide Weapon changes

See above regarding stacking on the nerfs to the point of Tau player frustration/annoyance/unplayability.

As for the Ion Accelerator, I'm not sure why its necessary to reduce the AP of non-NC'd profile, given that has almost never been a subject of complaint - instead, it's the previous Overcharged profile that caused the consternation, and you've removed that entirely.

Did you... did you seriously nerf the non-Nova Charged HBC? Wait, you nerfed its rate of fire AND its AP?

Has anyone, ever, in the history of the Riptide's existence EVER complained about a non-NC'd HBC? Ever? I honestly don't remember ever seeing any such thing. On that expensive of a platform, that's a fairly low level of firepower.

RE: Scour

Yeah, I think that'd be fair. It's what they did in the old codex.

RE: Smart Missile System

...No, that's silly. The Tau have almost no access to barrage style weapons, and SMS was one of our few ways to get it. Aside from the Airbursting Frag Projector, it was and remains the only way for Tau to strike at people outside of LoS (I don't count Seeker Missiles, as they require a ML hit, meaning SOMETHING has to have LoS on the target).

It also doesn't seem necessary in the slightest, particularly given the SMS's relatively limited range (meaning you have to be in a dangerously close position) and its limited profile (5/5 is among the worst profiles you find for barrage-style weaponry).

Can I get an explanation on why you felt this change was necessary? Maybe a diagram of where an SMS touched you in a bad way?

Interceptor is fairly easy to fix: you can shoot at the deep striker but not at what it carried. Ergo, you CAN shoot at the drop pod, but nothing the unit that disembarked from it.

Looked at another way, the shot is made before the unit disembarked from the drop pod. If you manage to blow up the pod, then y o you assign the damage to the occupants like normal.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/06/40k-lets-talk-about-drop-pods.html
Links to the faq draft pages in the article. if you use them, units that disembark from drop pods count as deep-striking, and are interceptable.

 pumaman1 wrote:
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/06/40k-lets-talk-about-drop-pods.html
Links to the faq draft pages in the article. if you use them, units that disembark from drop pods count as deep-striking, and are interceptable.

I believe Carldooley, by stating that Interceptor is "fairly easy to fix" as part of his post, is aware of the current rules for Intercepting Drop-Podded units - otherwise, it wouldn't be a fix, but rather a rule clarification.

Instead, I believe he's suggesting that the general Interceptor rules could be changed to protect Drop-Podded units by making them unable to be targetted when using Interceptor.

It's a potential solution to OP's issue with Drop Pod armies having a bad time against EWO-heavy Tau lists.



As a fix, it isn't bad (though having strong counters to tactics/strategies doesn't strike me as that problematic in general, as it can help shift metas), though if anything, shooting the things that come out of the METAL BAWKSES raining from the sky AFTER they've landed, rather than said METAL BAWKSES themselves, seems like it would far easier a task.

Well yes, if you think tau are going to bring EWO on basically everything just because they can, then don't bring a drop pod assault/Gladius, and make a new interesting strategy.

And a-lot could be made better if deep-strike had different types. Teleportation versus dropping in from the sky (tau deepstrike would be the latter, along with drop pods. Where as terminators and demons would be the former) There is no intercepting something that is suddenly there, but there is intercepting something traveling to get there.

But all that is off-topic.Personally i liked the change to no gets-hot on the riptides weapons, but i do think its too much.

To Fix Rail guns ..
Primary 2 Str 10 AP 1 Armour bane or lance
Rapid Fire Str 8 AP1 Armour bane or lance
Rapid Fire Str 6 AP1 Armour bane or lance
HYMP ..leave alone on second thought Salvo 2/4...Now they can move and shoot but if they do its at half effectiveness


Vespids Weapons to Assault 2..(No price Change)

RIP tides and Ghost keels are fine ..I kill them all the bloody time with orks ..What tau lack is reliable ranged anti armour ..and the rail rifles should have had either armour bane or lance to begin with ..

This is a reply to Unusual Suspect, because I'm on mobile.

RE: RE: Heavy Battlesuit-
Two reasons, one fluff and one gameplay. Fluff reason. Using JSJ, a Riptide is capable of phasing through walls through gaps that only a Stealth Suit sized model could conceivably fit through. In addition, an object with that much mass can only be lifted so much, even with the reactor's size scaling. Diminishing returns would not logically allow it to be as agile as a Crisis Suit.
Crunch reason. Playing against Riptides that can nuke a squad of Marines and then phase through a wall to avoid counter-fire sucks. The model is simply too powerful already to give it another boost. If it was up to me, I would give all Jet Pack MCs only 1D6 as a thrust move.

Addressing nova generator changes. Yes, it's complex. Yes, I'm trying to think of a better system. My main justification is that currently in-game there is no penalty for pushing your reactor beyond the redline to get free buffs. I use Riptides regularly, and this comes up a lot. Your ideas are good, and I respect the time you put in to post them.
The nerf to the non NC'ed HBC was an error that was caused by me not having my codex with me at the time. I agree that the single-shot mode should be AP2.

The SMS is an issue because of its points cost. It's a free upgrade on many things, and it has a 30" range. It completely removes the only thing keeping units such as Guard HWTs alive, and is so cheap that the choice to take it is almost insulting. And yes, I know this. I take it on almost everything.

 Verviedi wrote:
This is a reply to Unusual Suspect, because I'm on mobile.

RE: RE: Heavy Battlesuit-
Two reasons, one fluff and one gameplay. Fluff reason. Using JSJ, a Riptide is capable of phasing through walls through gaps that only a Stealth Suit sized model could conceivably fit through. In addition, an object with that much mass can only be lifted so much, even with the reactor's size scaling. Diminishing returns would not logically allow it to be as agile as a Crisis Suit.
Crunch reason. Playing against Riptides that can nuke a squad of Marines and then phase through a wall to avoid counter-fire sucks. The model is simply too powerful already to give it another boost. If it was up to me, I would give all Jet Pack MCs only 1D6 as a thrust move.

Both understandable reasons. If I may, a few counterpoints:

Fluff-wise, a Riptide is less "phasing through" walls and more crashing right through them, or jumping over/around them. If I were less lazy, I'd probably search for the fluff bit on the Kool-aid Man esque "Oh Yeeeeeah!" moment, but regardless, walls in tabletop are abstractions. A Riptide's Movement and Assault phase movements are no more phasing through terrain than a Flying Hive Tyrant when it makes a Movement phase jump.

Crunch-wise, I can certainly agree that the Riptide punches above its points, but it really does need at least some mobility. Hmmm. A potential change might be to allow MC Jump Jets to roll two d6 and pick the highest result.

In regards to diminishing returns, there's a careful balance that is struck between greater engine efficiency through larger systems, and the inevitability of the Square Cube law. In this case, were Riptides merely using an up-sized Crisis engine, the balance may well fall on the side of crisis for relative maneuverability/thrust/etc... but the Riptide's engine is described as being in a world of its own in terms of efficiency and output, and is cutting edge instead of the relatively stable-but-older crisis engine tech. In my opinion, that shifts the fluff in favor of a competatively-maneuverable Riptide.

Addressing nova generator changes. Yes, it's complex. Yes, I'm trying to think of a better system. My main justification is that currently in-game there is no penalty for pushing your reactor beyond the redline to get free buffs. I use Riptides regularly, and this comes up a lot. Your ideas are good, and I respect the time you put in to post them.

One thing you might seriously consider is making sure, in whatever system you finalize with, you make sure the Riptide isn't prevented from doing all the normal actions it can already do (or with extremely minimal chance of self-wounding) - for instance, you give the Riptide 5 charges, but 6 absolutely normal every-unit-can-do-these-things-without-worrying-about-anything mechanics that require a charge each. Starting with 6 charges would be more appropriate, and significantly easier to track: If you don't use Nova abilities, you can do everything you normally can do as a unit of that type. You only need to pay attention to charges if you're stepping into Nova ability territory.

Your systems is complex, but not unworkable... and part of making it workable is not messing significantly with the baseline capabilities of a unit. Using all normally available systems should be possible without taxing the Nova Generator at all. Your system actually gives a great deal of versatility with the Nova Generator's output (by allowing replacement of normal abilities, like movement or the JSJ or firing the secondary weapons, etc., with Nova results), which may actually be unbalancing in the Riptide's favor.

The more I think about it, the more I like the granularity of a point system for the various Nova abilities. However, the cost of a 9/2 hit for every point is, IMO, far too high. You might instead make each "charge" used have a small chance to cause a wound. I think you can price Nova abilities at anywhere from 1 to 3 points and find an appropriate balance...I'm torn between suggesting a high-chance-to-wound that armor saves apply to, or a low-chance-to-wound with AP2 (and not allowing the use of the 3++), though I'm fairly sure at least some form of mitigation is appropriate (minimally, FnP, and probably the 5++ or 2+ if armor saves are allowed).

The nerf to the non NC'ed HBC was an error that was caused by me not having my codex with me at the time. I agree that the single-shot mode should be AP2.

That makes things much more palatable. I also think the changes to the range for the Ion Accelerator were warranted, though you might push them up to 42" or 48" given the most problematic profile, the Large Blast, is gone(edit: at least, without risking Nova wounds and/or giving up on normal actions). The equivalent of a 3 shot imperial plasma gun is really not that scary, not even at 48".

The SMS is an issue because of its points cost. It's a free upgrade on many things, and it has a 30" range. It completely removes the only thing keeping units such as Guard HWTs alive, and is so cheap that the choice to take it is almost insulting. And yes, I know this. I take it on almost everything.

Repeat after me: There is no free lunch. When you pay points for a weapons platform, you're paying for any weapons that are included, or that the unit can upgrade into without cost.

The SMS also almost always come on a platform as a secondary weapon:
The Broadside's main weapon (and the one they arguably pay the most for in that base cost) is the HYMP or the HRR, not the SMS (or the PR, if you make that upgrade)
The Hammerhead's main weapon is the Railgun or the Ion Cannon.
The Riptide's main weapon is the Ion Accelerator or the HBC.
The Ghosttide... well, you get the idea.

In fact, I can't recall a single unit where the SMS is the main weapon system, and consequently worth the bulk of the firepower points invested in a model's base cost. At best, you might argue for a minimum squad of Strikers with that Drone Tower upgrade, but that's still a not-insignificant investment (effectively 66 points minimum for a single SMS).

Ultimately, firing at something in a way that takes advantage of the Homing quality, by the nature of Homing, requires that these Primary weapon systems are consequently USELESS and not making their invested points back. Frankly, for the SMS to be worth using at all, they need to be worthwhile.

I will admit that, for whatever reason, GW has undercosted the relative worth of SMS. As we've stated before, there's more than one way to skin a Grox, and I'd be significantly more inclined to make the simple adjustment of increasing the SMS's relative cost (+5 points per seems appropriate) than removing one of their iconic abilities and one of the only ways Tau can ignore LoS.

Yes, the SMS makes Heavy Weapon Teams weap. But if I'm giving up an 8/3 Pieplate to fire those SMS into that Heavy Weapon Team, I'm giving up a lot of raw firepower to get those sweet, sweet Astra Militarum tears flowing. That, I think, is where the balance for the SMS lies.

Thank you for your intelligent and constructive feedback. I've added all changes to the OP, and made alterations to most of the changes you addressed.

Just as a reminder, salvo, if you move, you shoot the lower shots at 1/2 the range. So if a missile-side moves, it only has an 18" range auto-cannon?
I am for any improvement to heavy rail rifles, because rule-of-cool for modeling, and i like them much better.

That's probably a reasonable way to change the SMS. My other suggestion would have been to keep Homing, but remove Ignores Cover, so you can still fire it against targets out of LOS, but they still get their cover saves (to represent things like the missile hitting a wall or rock, being dodged, etc).

Pumaman1: That's arguably better than now, where if you move, you still get four shots at 36", but they're snap-shots.