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 pumaman1 wrote:
Just as a reminder, salvo, if you move, you shoot the lower shots at 1/2 the range. So if a missile-side moves, it only has an 18" range auto-cannon?
I am for any improvement to heavy rail rifles, because rule-of-cool for modeling, and i like them much better.

Working as intended. It's better than the current 4 snap shots, as Jade said, while still encouraging keeping the Broadsides stationary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another small Wall of Changes, this time some buffs and some nerfs.

Changes to Fusion Collider
Replace Fusion Collider profile with the following.

Fusion Collider
Focused Mode - R18" S8 AP1 Heavy 2, Melta
Wide-beam Mode - R18" S8 AP1 Heavy 1, Blast, Melta

Formation Patches-

OPTIMIZED STEALTH CADRE - Replace the text of the "The Wall of Mirrors" special rule with the following.

THE WALL OF MIRRORS - "If all units in this formation are within 6" of this formation's Ghostkeel squad, any unit in this formation may choose to move up to 6" in the enemy Shooting Phase when targeted by an enemy unit. The enemy unit may not switch targets if the unit they targeted moves out of their line of sight. Their shots are assumed to pass harmlessly through a field of rippling stealth field distortion."

RIPTIDE WING - Replace the text of "Networked Reactors" with the following.

NETWORKED REACTORS - "Each Riptide from this formation that is within 6" of another Riptide begins the turn with seven reactor points, instead of six."

Replace the text of "Riptide Hailfire" with the following.

RIPTIDE HAILFIRE - "Once per game, this formation may use the Riptide Hailfire nova ability using the following profile."

Riptide Hailfire - 7 Reactor Points. The model may fire its primary weapon up to twice, and secondary weapon up to four times. This ability may only be used once per game.

I think the Large Blast Fusion Collider is a bit much. That's way too good at ripping TEQs to shreds.

Yeah.. S6 is kinda garbage for an AT attack, but i don't think there was much wrong with the S8ap1 melta blast, gets hot

It was because small blasts are a bit crap on an MC platform. Anyone who knows how to spread models out properly is going to have them set up so only one or two models can get hit by a single small blast. That being said, small blast probably is the best way to set up that overcharge mode.

My anecdotal problem, is every time my ghost keel has fired his fusion collider, the blast has scattered onto friendly models, or itself. Ghost keels have not earned any points from me.

But thanks for the updated profile, the s8 seems much more capable in its intended roll.

Yeah, that's why I never use the Fusion Collider. It's too random.

Delete the current Markerlight table and rules.
Replace it with the following:

Markerlight: A Markerlight does not roll to Wound, instead the targeted unit takes an Initiative test. If the Initiative test is successfully passed, the targeted unit does not receive a Markerlight Counter. Make a careful note of the direction and range that a unit firing a Markerlight is firing from compared to its target as this will affect the usage of certain Markerlight abilities. Any unit firing at a target designated by a Markerlight receives a flat +1 BS bonus.

Pinpoint
Cost: 1-3 Markerlight Counters
Shots utilizing Pinpoint are considered Precision Shots and any "Look Out, Sir!" saves made by a model that is directly in the path of a Markerlight designation are at a -2 to their "Look Out, Sir!" rolls.

No Respite
Cost: 2 Markerlight Counters
Requirements: Weapon with Homing, Airburst, or Overpenetration
Shots utilizing No Respite do not require Line of Sight nor do they need to target a unit, instead being able to target a specific piece of terrain.
Additionally any shots utilizing No Respite halve the distance rolled for Scatter, if Scatter is applicable.

Seeker Missiles
As before.

Destroyer Missile
As before.

Airbursting Fragmentation Launcher loses Ignores Cover and instead gains the following:

Airburst: A weapon with this special rule can ignore Jink saves for Skimmers, Jetbikes, and Bikes.

Railrifles, Heavy Railrifles, and Railguns all gain the following special rule in addition to Armourbane:

Overpenetration: A rail weapon packs a devastating amount of kinetic force. When a model struck by a weapon with this rule fails any form of save, draw a line from the initial point of impact for the remainder of the range that the firing weapon has.

Until a model under that line fails a save, keep rolling. Each time the line crosses a piece of scenery, subtract a point of Strength and add 1 to the AP value.

Additionally, Railguns gain the following:

Devastating Damage: If a Railgun causes a Penetrating Hit on an enemy vehicle, roll a D6. On a 4+, the shot exits the enemy vehicle and utilizes the rules outlined by Overpenetration.

A weapon with this special rule additionally ignores the penalty to Strength and AP values caused by crossing a piece of scenery.

Smart Missile Systems lose Ignores Cover and instead gain Airburst and the following special rule:

Death from Above: When a Smart Missile System is fired at a target that is out of Line of Sight, resolve each successful hit using the following profile:

Microbomblet
S5 AP5
Blast, Barrage

 Kanluwen wrote:
Delete the current Markerlight table and rules.
Replace it with the following:

Markerlight: A Markerlight does not roll to Wound, instead the targeted unit takes an Initiative test. If the Initiative test is successfully passed, the targeted unit does not receive a Markerlight Counter. Make a careful note of the direction and range that a unit firing a Markerlight is firing from compared to its target as this will affect the usage of certain Markerlight abilities. Any unit firing at a target designated by a Markerlight receives a flat +1 BS bonus.

Pinpoint
Cost: 1-3 Markerlight Counters
Shots utilizing Pinpoint are considered Precision Shots and any "Look Out, Sir!" saves made by a model that is directly in the path of a Markerlight designation are at a -2 to their "Look Out, Sir!" rolls.

No Respite
Cost: 2 Markerlight Counters
Requirements: Weapon with Homing, Airburst, or Overpenetration
Shots utilizing No Respite do not require Line of Sight nor do they need to target a unit, instead being able to target a specific piece of terrain.
Additionally any shots utilizing No Respite halve the distance rolled for Scatter, if Scatter is applicable.

Just say you want markerlghts removed the codex. There would be no reasons to take them ever if you did these things

 Kanluwen wrote:
Seeker Missiles
As before.

If you mean from 4th edition , totally agree

 Kanluwen wrote:
Destroyer Missile
As before.

kambien wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Delete the current Markerlight table and rules.
Replace it with the following:

Markerlight: A Markerlight does not roll to Wound, instead the targeted unit takes an Initiative test. If the Initiative test is successfully passed, the targeted unit does not receive a Markerlight Counter. Make a careful note of the direction and range that a unit firing a Markerlight is firing from compared to its target as this will affect the usage of certain Markerlight abilities. Any unit firing at a target designated by a Markerlight receives a flat +1 BS bonus.

Pinpoint
Cost: 1-3 Markerlight Counters
Shots utilizing Pinpoint are considered Precision Shots and any "Look Out, Sir!" saves made by a model that is directly in the path of a Markerlight designation are at a -2 to their "Look Out, Sir!" rolls.

No Respite
Cost: 2 Markerlight Counters
Requirements: Weapon with Homing, Airburst, or Overpenetration
Shots utilizing No Respite do not require Line of Sight nor do they need to target a unit, instead being able to target a specific piece of terrain.
Additionally any shots utilizing No Respite halve the distance rolled for Scatter, if Scatter is applicable.

Just say you want markerlghts removed the codex. There would be no reasons to take them ever if you did these things

So you're trying to say that a flat +1 BS for any unit firing at any unit that has been Markerlighted, whether or not the firing unit uses a Markerlight Counter, makes them "no reason to take them ever"?

 Kanluwen wrote:
Seeker Missiles
As before.

If you mean from 4th edition , totally agree

 Kanluwen wrote:
Destroyer Missile
As before.

again if from 4th edition rules , yeah

Actually, the SMS gets a bit of a buff there: you roll to hit normally and then, for each hit, resolve a blast. Potentially up to 4 S5 AP5 Barrage blasts, which is actually pretty good. That's probably too big of a buff, actually. My inclination for the SMS would be to have it ignore line of sight, but not ignore cover. (The missiles steer around obvious blocks, but might still detonate early from hitting a rock, or miss at the last second, or smack into a wall that couldn't be seen in time, etc.)

jade_angel wrote:
Actually, the SMS gets a bit of a buff there: you roll to hit normally and then, for each hit, resolve a blast. Potentially up to 4 S5 AP5 Barrage blasts, which is actually pretty good. That's probably too big of a buff, actually. My inclination for the SMS would be to have it ignore line of sight, but not ignore cover. (The missiles steer around obvious blocks, but might still detonate early from hitting a rock, or miss at the last second, or smack into a wall that couldn't be seen in time, etc.)

See, the intention is for that to only be present when firing at targets they do not have line of sight to via "No Respite".

I was trying to decide on whether or not the Microbomblets should be S4 AP6 or something like that. Something to represent the fact that the missile detonated above and rained itty bitty grenades.

 Kanluwen wrote:

So you're trying to say that a flat +1 BS for any unit firing at any unit that has been Markerlighted, whether or not the firing unit uses a Markerlight Counter, makes them "no reason to take them ever"?

Yes i am. When i currently play i use full units are marker lights to boost the hell out of 1 unit to murder the target.Subsequent firers are meaningless. Its why the whole "Coordinated Firepower" prefaq still wasn't as good as people kept making it out to be ( barring using Target locks to bring the buffs to outside targets ) Under your suggestion , they are still flimsy easily kill able unit who have a reduced effectiveness in both hitting thier actual targets ( except tau,orks,necrons and some nids ) and thier "force multiplier" effectivenes. Making them worse at being a force multiplier is not good its the only reason they are taken. You also just went from a 50% hit rate ( BS3 ) to less then that ( over 50% of the codexs have a init 4 with options of a higher init upgrade character and a lot of eldar units just became unmarkerable at init 6)

 Kanluwen wrote:

Destroyer Missiles are brand new. They're on the Stormsurge.
While I intended for Seeker Missiles to remain as they are, I can see the case for them to be just "A unit uses a Markerlight Counter for a Seeker Missile hit and it happens".

kambien wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

So you're trying to say that a flat +1 BS for any unit firing at any unit that has been Markerlighted, whether or not the firing unit uses a Markerlight Counter, makes them "no reason to take them ever"?

Yes i am. When i currently play i use full units are marker lights to boost the hell out of 1 unit to murder the target.Subsequent firers are meaningless. Its why the whole "Coordinated Firepower" prefaq still wasn't as good as people kept making it out to be ( barring using Target locks to bring the buffs to outside targets ) Under your suggestion , they are still flimsy easily kill able unit who have a reduced effectiveness in both hitting thier actual targets ( except tau,orks,necrons and some nids ) and thier "force multiplier" effectivenes. Making them worse at being a force multiplier is not good its the only reason they are taken. You also just went from a 50% hit rate ( BS3 ) to less then that ( over 50% of the codexs have a init 4 with options of a higher init upgrade character and a lot of eldar units just became unmarkerable at init 6)

You went from a 50% hit rate against everything to a guaranteed hit, with the only roll needed to be a check versus a characteristic.

The idea could use some finaggling certainly, but it isn't as bad as you're making it out to be...especially once you take into consideration that it means buildings(remember, you can choose to shoot structures via the game rules) and vehicles will always be Marked if you aim at them.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Destroyer Missiles are brand new. They're on the Stormsurge.
While I intended for Seeker Missiles to remain as they are, I can see the case for them to be just "A unit uses a Markerlight Counter for a Seeker Missile hit and it happens".

Yes i know Desroyers were not in 4th but the follow the same sequence as normal Seekers. I seem to have missed , even though you pointed it out , to remove the currently rules and use the new ones. So yes the seekers should be put back in but if the target vehicle is still going ot required to shoot at the same target that is using the markerlight token , they still will not be taken barring the skyray.

There's a bit of work to be done certainly, but realistically? That's why I didn't say these were the "Final, take 'em or leave 'em" proposals.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Airbursting Fragmentation Launcher loses Ignores Cover and instead gains the following:

Airburst: A weapon with this special rule can ignore Jink saves for Skimmers, Jetbikes, and Bikes.

Barely used weapon made worse. Still take missile pods over it.

Airbursting Fragmentation Launchers are Barrage. They get native Ignores Cover based on placement of the template.

But they don't ignore cover with units inside area terrain ( which is when most units get cover in my experience )

Of course that's when most units get cover. Area terrain like ruins is where you should be getting cover.

So its worse against almost all except vehicles and if you worrying about a STR 4 hit on a vehicle you have larger issues

What's the AV on most Skimmers?

 Kanluwen wrote:
Railrifles, Heavy Railrifles, and Railguns all gain the following special rule in addition to Armourbane:

Overpenetration: A rail weapon packs a devastating amount of kinetic force. When a model struck by a weapon with this rule fails any form of save, draw a line from the initial point of impact for the remainder of the range that the firing weapon has.

I agree Railguns and rail rifels are lacking , but don't think this is the way to go , also remove the basic railrifle , its a good weapon , its issue is that it falls into a unit that you want markerlights instead ( even though you just totally gutted their usefulness )

 Kanluwen wrote:
The Railrifle isn't going away. The Pathfinders are a plastic kit. Realistically, the issue isn't that it falls into a unit that you want Markerlights in but rather that Markerlights are too good for the army as a whole and that Pathfinders should have Split Fire or a special rule allowing for models within the unit which replaced their Pulse Carbines and Markerlights to get Split Fire or something of that nature.

I typed something i didn't quite mean . I didn't mean remove from the game , just your inclusion on the list. They are good weapons if you want to dedicate pathfinders to doing that. Problem is the unit you are puttingthem on are being brought for a different purpose. Of course with current changes you propose I need more markerligths to hit , but have nothing to spend excess counters on past 1 they migth be more included in them.

Which is a big part of why I'm in favor of striking the whole "Spend X Markerlight Counters to boost your Ballistic Skill stupid high." mechanic that exists now. As it stands? There's no reason for people to ever take upgrades on Pathfinders. It's pathetic that they are more Markerbots than actual Markerlight Drones are!

The changes I've proposed are an attempt to make it so that you actually have to do more than just "Roll to Hit" for Markerlights. I want to see them get an actual role and a rhyme and reason to exist beyond "I want my BS to be high".

I've got more ideas across the board for Tau but am not really ready to commit them to posts yet.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Until a model under that line fails a save, keep rolling. Each time the line crosses a piece of scenery, subtract a point of Strength and add 1 to the AP value.
To complicated and probably way to good
It wasn't too complicated for Bolt Throwers in WHFB, nor for Beam based Psyker abilities.

Its not just complicated , but it also a time factor . Now you have to determine where in the unit it gets hit , you'll probably have to do this 1 model at a time , now more broadsides with rail rifles will be taken , so you'll have to do this more often , against more models while keep going track of the STR of when it goes down

You don't have to keep track of the Strength outside of when it hits terrain.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Smart Missile Systems lose Ignores Cover and instead gain Airburst and the following special rule:

Death from Above: When a Smart Missile System is fired at a target that is out of Line of Sight, resolve each successful hit using the following profile:

Microbomblet
S5 AP5
Blast, Barrage

No.
Yup

.

Unless your missing some rules or i'm not understanding. I have to role against bs , to see if i "Hit" the unit then deal with blast markers and scatter per hit , or is this just a single blast marker without rolling for a "hit" since i'm working off it lost heavy 4

Because it's not part of the Smart Missile System.

If your Smart Missile System successfully hits, you use the Microbomblet profile to resolve the Wounds.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I removed Ignores Cover army wide because in some instances it was utterly ridiculous or superfluous.

Great lets remove ATSKNF , homeing beacons , all pyscher sand abilities , void shields ,power armor and grav cause they are silly and superfluous

Superfluous doesn't simply mean "things I don't like".

I'm trying to look at this as a way of turning the Tau into a simulacrum of a modern fighting force. Think of the ABF and SMS as being not unlike the XM25 'smart' grenade launcher that was being touted awhile back.

That is how I envision the Tau dealing with troops that are bunkered down in a defense line.

 Kanluwen wrote:
For example, there's no reasonable explanation for how a Markerlight turns direct fire weapons(Pulse, Burst, Ion, etc) into Ignores Cover machines.

To quote Matt Daemon in the martian. "I'm going to science the gak out of it" or we removing all pyschers and abilities , daemons , orks ( because things just "work" when they do/make things) skimmers , necrons , space marines ( super modified super soldiers who don't take over everything , yeah right )

I don't think you quite understand the objection.

It's the same one I have for "Fire on My Target!" causing Ignores Cover plasma guns and the like. The weapons themselves do not change, they remain directed fire weapons. If someone is in cover, they're in cover. Unless the shots start coming from above there's no reason for the "Ignores Cover" mechanic to function with those weapons.

Cover, as a mechanic, also needs a significant work up as do Blast weapons and the like. But that's not here or there.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Then there's the Ignores Cover aspect of things like the ABL. Why? It's Barrage. It doesn't need Ignores Cover as well.

Because it air-bursts small bomb-lets , there is not place to hid. It is equivalent to a claymore that detonates directly above something . There is no place to go to not get hit

Which is what the Barrage special rule is for.

 Kanluwen wrote:
With no requirement of Markerlight Counter expenditures.

Yeah great , but its still harder to get the marker light on the unit , and the benefit is drastically reduced

Which is a good point and something to factor into the discussion. It could be a Leadership test instead of Initiative; but the purpose of it is to finally allow some kind of save for Infantry units against a Markerlight.

 Kanluwen wrote:
In a day and age where the Hunter Cadre(and the shared Markerlight Counter benefits) exists and grants +1 Ballistic Skill for Combined Attacks and where the larger suits and vehicles get +1 for being taken in a group of 3? The ability to boost the BS up when Snap Firing(which is supposed to be a penalty, not something that can be offset by Markerlights) or the like isn't as necessary.

If there is a issue with a formation , you fix the formation you don't nerf the base unit otherwise its crap when not in a formation.
As to markerlights boosting snap firing , yeah its intended , it specifically calls it out . But the better question is this ..
Why are the markerlights not dead yet , you know your playing against tau right ?

36" range puts Markerlights out of the range of most basic infantry weapons. There is no reason whatsoever for them to be as long ranged as they are if they remain in the "Hit and no Wound roll required" state, coupled with the nonsensical "A laser pointer removes all cover" setup there is now.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Return seekers to the previous state (vehicle carries them but doesn't get stuck shooting at the target) which i agree with

Not sure I'd simply say returning them to their previous state, but definitely something like would be appropriate.

If the vehicles get stuck firing at the same target when using the whole ML system to cal them in , its not going to be used . Maybe on a devilfish you accidentally brought and is out of range of its reg weapons. Your not going to ever use one on a hammerhead , skyray , piranha ( maybe if its out of range of anything )

Which, again, is something to consider when discussing this.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Really? Nobody "cares about Look Out, Sir!"?

Yes really. While it can be annoying its not something i would spend markerlight units shooting to remove. Don't see any tau take the precision shot upgrade to the suits.

Why would they, considering the other options available?

But please. Let's not pretend that a pointed upgrade is the same as a game mechanic.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Anyways, there's a portion of that which I had been finessing when placing the "1-3 counters". It initially was going to have a different effect based upon the number of Counters expended.
1 Counter: Precision Shots and -2 to "Look Out, Sir!" rolls.
2 Counters: As above, but with the addition of treating Rapid Fire weapons at being half range when firing(Additional shot).
3 Counters: As above, with the addition of allowing units using Pinpoint to reroll failed To Hit and To Wound rolls.

Except with your idea we are taking at least two groups of markerlights ( close to 16 sources ) to even get these effects ( see below )

 Kanluwen wrote:
Markers fall terrible usage since 1/2 with fail at bs3 , then more will fail against initiative tests ( or does the bs not matter any more and its just Init test ? ) and a single pass counters all markers ( again not sure about bs being needed )
Y'know, I wasn't actually sure about it...but I do like your idea.

Which ? flat init roll or bs + init roll ? i'm guessing the latter since you want to gut the tau

 Kanluwen wrote:
A model with a Markerlight choosing to designate a target cannot fire any weapons and instead attempts to designate a target. The targeted unit makes an Initiative test. If passed, there is no Markerlight Counter placed and the unit attempting to mark them has failed.

Is this per shot or as a whole ?

As mentioned, this is more than open to discussion. There's a lot of ways a new Markerlight system could be done.

 Kanluwen wrote:
SMS - yay a single small blast temple , no thanks
A single small blast template that is placed each time a hit with the SMS is resolved...
4 hits, 4 SBTs with Barrage.

Entire thing could be summed up with , remove Ignore cover , remove markerlights

Remove mass Ignores Cover on demand from anything that doesn't need or really deserve it. Fire Warriors have no business turning into Ignores Cover machines just because someone shone a laser pointer downrange.

No you just took ignore covers from the entire codex not just fire warriors.

Sure. But in doing so, I also added:
The ability for ABF and SMS to rain hell from above via using "No Respite" and for Rail weapons to hit targets through cover.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I've got some more Markerlight abilities floating around but like the Orders system for Guard? It needs a revamp heavily, and this is what I feel would be part of a good start.

Tau arn't guard. You can't and shouldn't take abilities fom one codex and put them into another codex that behaves differently.

Who says I did? I said that like the Orders system for Guard, the Markerlight system needs a revamp. I didn't try to turn Markerlights into Orders.

So you neater kareligths and change them to orders

Do you know how Orders work?

great , tau getting pyschers and pyschic defence now for free ? Can't pay points for either , there is no option acorss the army.

What happens during the Psychic phase?

You get a number of dice to defend against Psyker abilities even without possessing Psykers of your own.
So where's my "Deny the Laser Pointer" roll?

Pretending that just because you have no option for Psykers means that you have no defense at all against Psykers is disingenuous at best, ignorant at worst.

We putting heavy weapons into the fire warrior squads now too ? Tau can't do that currently either , there is no option.

I suggest you reread the update to the Tau book. You got the turrets to fill the role of "heavy weapons".

The entire army is built differnatly , you would have to copy one codex into the other to get any source of balance going. I can't wait to ally with the rest of the imperium , get superfriends deathstars going

And I'm on record here on Dakka as suggesting ways to deal with "superfriends deathstars" too; notably making it so the various Chapter books gain a "Chapter Trait" incorporating their USRs so that it would prevent the nonsense of Superfriends in the first place.


Additionally, if you want to bring up the "allies" nonsense? You can ally in a Farsight Enclaves detachment with the Talisman of Arthas Moloch for more Psyker defense. The bearer and all friendly units within 12" of them get to add 2 to their Deny the Witch rolls.

jade_angel wrote:
Actually, the SMS gets a bit of a buff there: you roll to hit normally and then, for each hit, resolve a blast. Potentially up to 4 S5 AP5 Barrage blasts, which is actually pretty good. That's probably too big of a buff, actually. My inclination for the SMS would be to have it ignore line of sight, but not ignore cover. (The missiles steer around obvious blocks, but might still detonate early from hitting a rock, or miss at the last second, or smack into a wall that couldn't be seen in time, etc.)

Heavy 4 is not on the profile he listed ( accidentally or intentional ) so its a single small blast template not 4

What do you think "resolve each successful hit" means?

For what it's worth, I pretty much agree with everything you say about Markerlights, SMS, and ABFP. A bit leery on the Rail changes, I would rather have them have a chance to do multiple wounds/HPs, ala AdMech Torsion Cannons.

Why does everything have to be so damn complicated? This proposal has special rules and corner cases coming out it's ears.