Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2016/10/03 06:12:20
Subject: Ideas for strong Renegades and Heretics lists/ synergies with CSM?
Besides the Unending Host infantry spam and the Ordinance Tyrant/ Artillery & Zombie spam lists, what other unit combos and list builds are good for the army?
Also, with the addition of Traitors Hate for CSM, are there any new synergies to try out?
Any and all ideas!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/03 19:03:49
2016/10/03 07:41:38
Subject: Ideas for strong Renegades and Heretics lists/units?
Any list that isn't Unending Host or Ordnance Tyrant is just taking advantage of very point efficient unit options renegades have such as Spawn, cheap Infantry Squads, Rapier Laser Destroyers, and so on.
2016/10/03 17:15:30
Subject: Ideas for strong Renegades and Heretics lists/units?
Maybe I should ask about synergies across codexes then? Different characters to buff units and the likes.
Forgot the name of the power but fitting your 50 man tarpit on a piece of terrain and then moving said terrain toward your opponent sounds like a fun bit of sorcery
Grab 50 Zombies, toss in a Palanquin of Nurgle Lord (probably not the Palanquin as its painfully expensive but might be fun) then Worldwrithe it into your opponents face and multicharge everything. This assumes you could fit that many models on a terrain piece, but it could tie up a good chunk of an army so long as they aren't too CC oriented.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/03 19:08:46
2016/10/03 19:37:28
Subject: Ideas for strong Renegades and Heretics lists/ synergies with CSM?
The main issue with most of the formations is they're very "tax-intensive". Three separate Traitor's Hate formations are GW going "hey, we got a lot of unsold Warpsmiths..."
I suppose you *could* do an Ordnance Tyrant List and just keep carpeting the field in enough bodies to go for objectives, carpeting the field in Rapier batteries and artillery, and run a Cult of Destruction with several large-ish Obliterator units to provide "direct fire" support and smack your enemy silly. Or you could run mass Maulerfiends in support of Spawn. If the enemy dares to charge you/attempts to tarpit your Fiends, you fire Wyverns into the close combat and teach your foe the folly of attempting to pile in.
2016/10/03 20:39:34
Subject: Ideas for strong Renegades and Heretics lists/ synergies with CSM?
I've always wanted to run a screamer star to screen a bunch of artillery and an ordnance tyrant. Give the screamers 2++ rerollable and then assault units to bunch them up. Add quad mortars and wyverns. Profit.
"Backfield? I have no backfield."
2016/10/03 20:56:39
Subject: Ideas for strong Renegades and Heretics lists/ synergies with CSM?
astro_nomicon wrote: I've always wanted to run a screamer star to screen a bunch of artillery and an ordnance tyrant. Give the screamers 2++ rerollable and then assault units to bunch them up. Add quad mortars and wyverns. Profit.
This. I never thought about that, sounds like it could be really fun
2016/10/03 21:36:19
Subject: Ideas for strong Renegades and Heretics lists/ synergies with CSM?
For some reason evey time I play with someone who never fought the Unending host, they keep thinking that if they kill the Arch Demagouge, it stops the 15+ men infantry platoons from respawning. I pretty much just quit after trying to explain from the book to the 12th guy who did not believe me. Please dont drag up rules debate as that falls under YMDC. I am just commenting the Unending host and why I quit playing with 200+ models.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/03 22:53:07
In the Grimdark future of DerpHammer40k, there are only dank memes!
2016/10/03 22:44:42
Subject: Ideas for strong Renegades and Heretics lists/ synergies with CSM?
CadianGateTroll wrote: For some reason evey time I play with someone who never fought the Unending host, they keep thinking that if they kill the Arch Demagouge, it stops the 15+ men infantry olatoons from respawning. I pretty much just quit after trying to explain from the book to the 12th guy who did not believe me. Please dont drag up rules debate as that falls under YMDC. I am just commenting the Unending host and why I quit playing with 200+ models.
that would because killing the arch demagogue does remove the ability to spawn on 2+
2016/10/03 23:01:01
Subject: Ideas for strong Renegades and Heretics lists/ synergies with CSM?
CadianGateTroll wrote: For some reason evey time I play with someone who never fought the Unending host, they keep thinking that if they kill the Arch Demagouge, it stops the 15+ men infantry platoons from respawning. I pretty much just quit after trying to explain from the book to the 12th guy who did not believe me. Please dont drag up rules debate as that falls under YMDC. I am just commenting the Unending host and why I quit playing with 200+ models.
that would because killing the arch demagogue does remove the ability to spawn on 2+
Do you have the Imperial Armor: Siege Of Vraks book? Or atleast access to a digital pdf?
In the Grimdark future of DerpHammer40k, there are only dank memes!
2016/10/04 00:18:47
Subject: Ideas for strong Renegades and Heretics lists/ synergies with CSM?
In order to get Ordnance Tyrant or Unending Host, you have to be the primary detachment, which limits how that can be applied, but both are decent.
Screamerstar as an allied detachment, you can pick up 4 heralds, but not Fateweaver, so you can water down the deathstar and get it in with either R&H detachment. The unending host is more expensive, points wise, but definitely synergizes better. The Ordnance Tyrant list has a huge drawback in that is has nothing to protect the artillery from mobile armies. Allying in Knights and using zombies and spawn can help with this, but a single shooty/psychic buffstar can't defend enough board to protect 11 artillery pieces.
My fav is the UH loaded up on meltas behind PCS with flamers. Then the watered down Heraldstar summons and shoots the dog gak out of things, and charges with juiced up etherblades if a target of opportunity arises. If the grimore fails, boost behind the nearest squad of dudes and summon some dogs.
Best allies options are the spawn, for cheap, the Rapier Laser Battery, for ridiculous cheap, wyverns, quad mortars, and Manticores, as needed for your list.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/10/04 00:20:15
2016/10/04 04:38:24
Subject: Ideas for strong Renegades and Heretics lists/ synergies with CSM?
CadianGateTroll wrote: For some reason evey time I play with someone who never fought the Unending host, they keep thinking that if they kill the Arch Demagouge, it stops the 15+ men infantry platoons from respawning. I pretty much just quit after trying to explain from the book to the 12th guy who did not believe me. Please dont drag up rules debate as that falls under YMDC. I am just commenting the Unending host and why I quit playing with 200+ models.
that would because killing the arch demagogue does remove the ability to spawn on 2+
Do you have the Imperial Armor: Siege Of Vraks book? Or atleast access to a digital pdf?
Yes I do have the rules, and I even do play the Unending Host
You know, when 12 seperate people read the same rule that you are and you are the only one getting your interpretation, maybe you're the one misreading the rule?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/04 04:40:36
2016/10/04 14:36:35
Subject: Ideas for strong Renegades and Heretics lists/ synergies with CSM?
cod3x wrote: In order to get Ordnance Tyrant or Unending Host, you have to be the primary detachment, which limits how that can be applied, but both are decent.
Screamerstar as an allied detachment, you can pick up 4 heralds, but not Fateweaver, so you can water down the deathstar and get it in with either R&H detachment. The unending host is more expensive, points wise, but definitely synergizes better. The Ordnance Tyrant list has a huge drawback in that is has nothing to protect the artillery from mobile armies. Allying in Knights and using zombies and spawn can help with this, but a single shooty/psychic buffstar can't defend enough board to protect 11 artillery pieces.
My fav is the UH loaded up on meltas behind PCS with flamers. Then the watered down Heraldstar summons and shoots the dog gak out of things, and charges with juiced up etherblades if a target of opportunity arises. If the grimore fails, boost behind the nearest squad of dudes and summon some dogs.
Best allies options are the spawn, for cheap, the Rapier Laser Battery, for ridiculous cheap, wyverns, quad mortars, and Manticores, as needed for your list.
You can still take a Daemon CAD w/ Fateweaver and Screamer Star despite the warlord caveat for Ordnance Tyrant. You just dont get Fateys warlord trait of reroll the warpstorm (which you won't need anyway since Renegades will be your Primary Detachment thus nullifying warpstorm altogether).
I'll have to cook it up again but I think the list I made had Fatey two heralds in the star, a Daemon knight and something like 6 quad mortars and 3 rapiers. Of course at that point you're playing more Daemons than Renegades but it seems strong on paper. With just Cursed Earth and Grim you get a 2++ rerollable Star and a Knight with a 3++ ion shield and a 4++ all around. Artillery makes short work of just about anything trying to tarpit you. Summon to taste.
"Backfield? I have no backfield."
2016/10/04 18:28:13
Subject: Ideas for strong Renegades and Heretics lists/ synergies with CSM?
CadianGateTroll wrote: For some reason evey time I play with someone who never fought the Unending host, they keep thinking that if they kill the Arch Demagouge, it stops the 15+ men infantry platoons from respawning. I pretty much just quit after trying to explain from the book to the 12th guy who did not believe me. Please dont drag up rules debate as that falls under YMDC. I am just commenting the Unending host and why I quit playing with 200+ models.
that would because killing the arch demagogue does remove the ability to spawn on 2+
Do you have the Imperial Armor: Siege Of Vraks book? Or atleast access to a digital pdf?
Yes I do have the rules, and I even do play the Unending Host
You know, when 12 seperate people read the same rule that you are and you are the only one getting your interpretation, maybe you're the one misreading the rule?
CrownAxe, "The answer isn't clear because the Special ability of Devotions aren't clearly defined as an ability of the warlord as an ability of your army/infantry"
To get back on topics regarding tactics, let me tell you all about the enemy tactics
If the removing the arch demagouge does indeed remove the master of the horde ability then he is prone to one shot vindicare assassins and all snipers.
Even if you hide him in a transport or fortification, people can crack it open even if its av14. Someone can shoot str D or put down a vortex. An 70pt ork model can shoot a str d cannon and create a vortex of doom 1/36 chances.
If you hide him in T7 artillery such as rapier laser destroyers any moving melee unit moving 12" can cut him down with ease.
If you put him in reserves, people with mtg mentality believe if its out of play it is out of effect. So when your platoon dies, and the Arch D is in reserves, the platoon wont come back at all.
So with all this, the Unending host is vastly inferior to a majority of detachments and even standard CAD since he is the the linchpin for 900pts of platoons.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/05 02:21:46
In the Grimdark future of DerpHammer40k, there are only dank memes!
2016/10/05 02:32:53
Subject: Re:Ideas for strong Renegades and Heretics lists/ synergies with CSM?
I already gave some advice but i'll give more since you are so demanding
CSM don't synergize with renegades well mainly because their don't have buff to give out like SM do but also the few buffs they do give out are on expensive ICs and are combat focus both of which are the opposite of what renegades do well which is shooting and being very cheap. If you want some synergy take some KDK Heralds since they are cheap sources of Fearless and let you shooting units build Blood Tithe points.
There. Now can you explain how YOUR OPINION of how Master of Hordes work is some how the correct interpretation? Or do you know you can't defend your position because you've failed to do so 12 times already (also they YMDC thread is 3 months only so we can't talk in it that's threadomancy and is against forum rules)
2016/10/05 04:15:53
Subject: Re:Ideas for strong Renegades and Heretics lists/ synergies with CSM?
Direct quote:
"Whenever an individual Renegade Infantry Squad [RIS] bought as part of the same army as a Demagogue with this devotion and numbering at least 15 models at the start of play is removed from play as a casualty, or flees off a table edge, roll a D6." **rules follow**
Emphasis mine. If the RIS has been "bought as part of the same army as a Demagogue with this devotion", then the special rule applies.
You can still take a Daemon CAD w/ Fateweaver and Screamer Star despite the warlord caveat for Ordnance Tyrant. You just dont get Fateys warlord trait of reroll the warpstorm (which you won't need anyway since Renegades will be your Primary Detachment thus nullifying warpstorm altogether).
I'll have to cook it up again but I think the list I made had Fatey two heralds in the star, a Daemon knight and something like 6 quad mortars and 3 rapiers. Of course at that point you're playing more Daemons than Renegades but it seems strong on paper. With just Cursed Earth and Grim you get a 2++ rerollable Star and a Knight with a 3++ ion shield and a 4++ all around. Artillery makes short work of just about anything trying to tarpit you. Summon to taste.
That list sounds awesome. I never could fit all that I wanted into a small enough point total to be competitive, but with all the new formations and such it might be possible.
OP Consider dropping a Chaos Lord with 3 Obliterators down midfield. It provides a phenominal mid-board control unit to zone while heavy artillery pounds away. This is a great combo with Medusas, LOW sized guns, or similar. GUO does the same thing, but since you asked about CSM that's a super versatile swiss army knife for a R&H list that lacks that very thing.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/10/05 04:27:57
2016/10/05 04:28:03
Subject: Re:Ideas for strong Renegades and Heretics lists/ synergies with CSM?
cod3x wrote: Direct quote:
"Whenever an individual Renegade Infantry Squad [RIS] bought as part of the same army as a Demagogue with this devotion and numbering at least 15 models at the start of play is removed from play as a casualty, or flees off a table edge, roll a D6." **rules follow**
Emphasis mine. If the RIS has been "bought as part of the same army as a Demagogue with this devotion", then the special rule applies.
Thats not premission to use the rule when the Demagogue isn't around, that's just another prerequisite to be able to use the rule (just like the 15 model requirement is as well)
2016/10/05 04:50:29
Subject: Re:Ideas for strong Renegades and Heretics lists/ synergies with CSM?
cod3x wrote: Direct quote:
"Whenever an individual Renegade Infantry Squad [RIS] bought as part of the same army as a Demagogue with this devotion and numbering at least 15 models at the start of play is removed from play as a casualty, or flees off a table edge, roll a D6." **rules follow**
Emphasis mine. If the RIS has been "bought as part of the same army as a Demagogue with this devotion", then the special rule applies.
You can still take a Daemon CAD w/ Fateweaver and Screamer Star despite the warlord caveat for Ordnance Tyrant. You just dont get Fateys warlord trait of reroll the warpstorm (which you won't need anyway since Renegades will be your Primary Detachment thus nullifying warpstorm altogether).
I'll have to cook it up again but I think the list I made had Fatey two heralds in the star, a Daemon knight and something like 6 quad mortars and 3 rapiers. Of course at that point you're playing more Daemons than Renegades but it seems strong on paper. With just Cursed Earth and Grim you get a 2++ rerollable Star and a Knight with a 3++ ion shield and a 4++ all around. Artillery makes short work of just about anything trying to tarpit you. Summon to taste.
That list sounds awesome. I never could fit all that I wanted into a small enough point total to be competitive, but with all the new formations and such it might be possible.
OP Consider dropping a Chaos Lord with 3 Obliterators down midfield. It provides a phenominal mid-board control unit to zone while heavy artillery pounds away. This is a great combo with Medusas, LOW sized guns, or similar. GUO does the same thing, but since you asked about CSM that's a super versatile swiss army knife for a R&H list that lacks that very thing.
Just played around with it and 1850 gets you Fatey, 2 Heralds, 8 Screamers, 2x 11 Horrors, Khorne Knight, Command Squad w/ Tyrant, 2x 5 Veterans, 3 quad mortars, 3 rapiers, and 2 wyverns with about 30 pts to spare. I'm sure the RH portion could be refined a bit as I'm not as familiar with them as I'd like To be
"Backfield? I have no backfield."
2016/10/05 07:20:18
Subject: Ideas for strong Renegades and Heretics lists/ synergies with CSM?
CrownAxe, I am asking you if any of the recent erratas or FAQ affected IA:SoV. You do not have to be so rude with your snippy sarcasm.
oh btw i reward you with this...
12 people can be newbs who dont know better, or casual players who dont care to look it up, or rules lawyers who are bending the rules to help them. What these 12 people are not, are top rankkng tournament players.
The fact that you own and play RH Unending host and is some how developed a succesful strategy despite your opponents knowing that the linchpin is killing the Arch Demagouge shows you have experience in protecting a GEq T3 single wound model from certain death. Can you please be polite and share this knowledge.
If things worked your way, I would throw 100% at the Arch Demagouge and then proceed to kill 25% of each platoon to watch them flee off the board.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/05 10:54:33
In the Grimdark future of DerpHammer40k, there are only dank memes!
2016/10/05 11:20:03
Subject: Re:Ideas for strong Renegades and Heretics lists/ synergies with CSM?
I wrote to the FW team via their FB page concerning the Master of the Horde rule, they will answer me within a few days, like usual. They've always answered my rule questions. Same thing with GW team via their FB page.
I'll let you know.
As for the main post, I think zombies + greater brass scorpion + cabal formation would be very good. Invisible scorpion with fearless cheap obj. sec. troops get the job done. I'll try it as soon as my scorpion arrives!
2016/10/05 20:13:32
Subject: Ideas for strong Renegades and Heretics lists/ synergies with CSM?
If you check B&CS, there is a big thread about FAQ responses from FW. First off, there are no plans for an FAQ for R&H, don't hold your breath, IA5 and IA13 are not getting any. It's been asked a lot of times.
Next. FW has consistently answered that demagogue rules which state "army" mean "army" not detachment. So if you brought anodnance tyrant and a second CAD, your second cad is part of the same army, and the warlord of that army is the ordnance tyrant, thus, both CAD can take advantage of the ordnance tyrant rules. It makes sense on paper and FW has confirmed this in several emails.
Unending host- no where does it state "while the warlord is alive" in the "Master of the horde" FW will back this up, you cannot stop the unending host from re-spawning.
Ignore people who are being butts on forums. Some people enjoy arguing.
As for answers to the main question, I've found that my renegades don't synergize with my Demons very well, and I stopped playing CSM a while ago, but I can't imagine a small detachment of them would do much, unless it was just some artillery.
However, I have found that my demons synergize with my Renegades and heretics amazingly. Specifically, any big nasty hammer/anvil of a unit, like blight drones or screamers will be a good force multiplier.
R&H is cheap enough that you can bring a CAD for about a 100pt tax (HQ+2 troops should be about 100pt, then you can get whatever) That is not too bad, so if you main CSM, you could toss in some earthshaker artillery and rapier lasers for some first turn shots. Your Renegade HQ is an IC, so you can toss them in one of the artillery units and they become very difficult to kill, then you surround that artillery with your 20 mutants that are your min troops. Now it has cover.
I don't think you will find any fantastic synergetic solutions between the books. R&H doesn't offer anything much outside of tons of bodies and big guns. I've used a crimson slaughter divination sorcerer in my armies a few times to buff my cannons, but its always been for fun, as for the price of the CSM detachment, I could have bought a lot more cannons than it was worth.
As for the invisible scorpion, remember that the scorpion causes an auto-perils to whoever casts a power on it. It's worth the risk, as the scorpion is a terrifying superheavy!
One interesting model to look into though, which brings up even more debate (lol) is the wonderful NECROSIUS. A Nurgle Sorcerer found in the very back of IA:5 Vraks. His warlord trait "may take Plague Zombies as non-compulsory troop choices". The R&H zombies are plague zombies, which are pretty hot stuff. He is also a pretty cool dude. The debate is that Typhus zombies are also plague zombies, however Typhus armies bring cultists, which are turned into zombies. Necrosius brings plague zombies, seems cut and dry to me, but you can always message FW about it. If you like Nurgle, that dude is pretty boss.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/05 20:14:08