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The Inquisition investigates and prosecutes heretics, but they do so according to religious doctrine.

That doctrine is decided upon by the Ecclesiarchy.
Presumably, they can issue religious rulings and decrees, which may effect the definition(s) of heresy, thereby affecting the Inquisition's work.

There is also the issue of religious interpretation, presumably this falls under the domain of the Ecclesiarchy.

Has GW ever commented on these overlaps between the two organisations?

The Inquisition ultimately has authority over all but the Emperor and the Custodes. That said, if we're talking issues of specific doctrine, thats not usually something the Inquisition concerns itself with so long as it is some variation of worship of the Emperor being practiced, they generally only care about Heresy and issues of faith outside the many faces of the Imperial Cult, leaving the management of those to the Ecclesiarchy.

When the Inquisition investigates Heresy it's not about saying a prayer wrong, insulting a saint or giving lip to a priest. It's matters of bigger import - founding heretical cults that disrupt society or refusing the Emperor-given authority of Imperial institutions for example.

Exactly so.

"Heretical variations in doctrine" is a useful thing for an inquisitor to accuse someone of if he doesn't want to announce to all and sundry that the real reason he shot the lord-governor is that there may be a self-aware xenotech death machine buried in the planet's crust that's no longer quite as asleep as it was, but the bulk of inquisitors aren't going to lose too much sleep over it.

Spetulhu wrote:
When the Inquisition investigates Heresy it's not about saying a prayer wrong, insulting a saint or giving lip to a priest. It's matters of bigger import - founding heretical cults that disrupt society or refusing the Emperor-given authority of Imperial institutions for example.

Heresy can be a big deal. Just look at the history of Christianity for example.

The Filioque that led to the schism between Eastern and Roman churches
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filioque

The fight of the Old Ritualists of Russia. They even mention specific changes in doctrine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believers

The Protestant Reformation which lead to so many deaths
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation

the Calvinist-inspired Dutch Revolt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Revolt


they have been way too many of such incidents in history.


Anyway, before the Inquisition can act on a heretic, he must be declared a heretic by someone. Supposedly the Ecclesiarchy. Which brings us back to my question of what power the Ecclesiarchy has over the Inquisition.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
When the Inquisition investigates Heresy it's not about saying a prayer wrong, insulting a saint or giving lip to a priest. It's matters of bigger import - founding heretical cults that disrupt society or refusing the Emperor-given authority of Imperial institutions for example.

Heresy can be a big deal. Just look at the history of Christianity for example.

The Filioque that led to the schism between Eastern and Roman churches
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filioque

The fight of the Old Ritualists of Russia. They even mention specific changes in doctrine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believers

The Protestant Reformation which lead to so many deaths
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation

the Calvinist-inspired Dutch Revolt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Revolt


they have been way too many of such incidents in history.


Anyway, before the Inquisition can act on a heretic, he must be declared a heretic by someone. Supposedly the Ecclesiarchy. Which brings us back to my question of what power the Ecclesiarchy has over the Inquisition.

I suspect an Inquisitor will often act against someone and call them a heretic, regardless of whether they have been declared a heretic officially - its a convenient 'catch all' term as far as the inquisitors are concerned. If you are working against the Emperor, you are a heretic, as the Emperor is a god (at least that is the imperial view in the 40k universe). More likely, the inquisitor has acted for his own reasons, but rather than explaining this to people who don't need to know the specifics he simply says that they are/were a heretic. This alone will be enough for people to quickly put distance between themselves and the person. Ultimately, the inquisition don't need any permission to act against any person, the only requirement is that the individual inquisitor deems them a threat to the Imperium of Mankind and words such as heretic or traitor are only required to give a reason to people who don't need to know the reason why he acted.

icn1982 wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
When the Inquisition investigates Heresy it's not about saying a prayer wrong, insulting a saint or giving lip to a priest. It's matters of bigger import - founding heretical cults that disrupt society or refusing the Emperor-given authority of Imperial institutions for example.

Heresy can be a big deal. Just look at the history of Christianity for example.

The Filioque that led to the schism between Eastern and Roman churches
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filioque

The fight of the Old Ritualists of Russia. They even mention specific changes in doctrine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believers

The Protestant Reformation which lead to so many deaths
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation

the Calvinist-inspired Dutch Revolt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Revolt


they have been way too many of such incidents in history.


Anyway, before the Inquisition can act on a heretic, he must be declared a heretic by someone. Supposedly the Ecclesiarchy. Which brings us back to my question of what power the Ecclesiarchy has over the Inquisition.

I suspect an Inquisitor will often act against someone and call them a heretic, regardless of whether they have been declared a heretic officially - its a convenient 'catch all' term as far as the inquisitors are concerned. If you are working against the Emperor, you are a heretic, as the Emperor is a god (at least that is the imperial view in the 40k universe). More likely, the inquisitor has acted for his own reasons, but rather than explaining this to people who don't need to know the specifics he simply says that they are/were a heretic. This alone will be enough for people to quickly put distance between themselves and the person. Ultimately, the inquisition don't need any permission to act against any person, the only requirement is that the individual inquisitor deems them a threat to the Imperium of Mankind and words such as heretic or traitor are only required to give a reason to people who don't need to know the reason why he acted.

But the Inquisition also enforces religious compliance, like the IRL Inquisition and various Imperial forces IRL (but in the past). Just like IRL, the Inquisition has to stop religious heresy.

What if an Inquisitor arrests someone for heresy but the Ecclesiarchy declares that that person is in compliance with doctrine and is not a heretic? Or what if the Ecclesiarchy declares a cult that the Inquisition consider critical or significant to be heretics?

By virtue of their job scope (which is fighting heresy), the Inquisition would have to obey the Ecclesiarchy on this matter and deal with the declared heretics.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

icn1982 wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
When the Inquisition investigates Heresy it's not about saying a prayer wrong, insulting a saint or giving lip to a priest. It's matters of bigger import - founding heretical cults that disrupt society or refusing the Emperor-given authority of Imperial institutions for example.

Heresy can be a big deal. Just look at the history of Christianity for example.

The Filioque that led to the schism between Eastern and Roman churches
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filioque

The fight of the Old Ritualists of Russia. They even mention specific changes in doctrine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believers

The Protestant Reformation which lead to so many deaths
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation

the Calvinist-inspired Dutch Revolt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Revolt


they have been way too many of such incidents in history.


Anyway, before the Inquisition can act on a heretic, he must be declared a heretic by someone. Supposedly the Ecclesiarchy. Which brings us back to my question of what power the Ecclesiarchy has over the Inquisition.

I suspect an Inquisitor will often act against someone and call them a heretic, regardless of whether they have been declared a heretic officially - its a convenient 'catch all' term as far as the inquisitors are concerned. If you are working against the Emperor, you are a heretic, as the Emperor is a god (at least that is the imperial view in the 40k universe). More likely, the inquisitor has acted for his own reasons, but rather than explaining this to people who don't need to know the specifics he simply says that they are/were a heretic. This alone will be enough for people to quickly put distance between themselves and the person. Ultimately, the inquisition don't need any permission to act against any person, the only requirement is that the individual inquisitor deems them a threat to the Imperium of Mankind and words such as heretic or traitor are only required to give a reason to people who don't need to know the reason why he acted.

But the Inquisition also enforces religious compliance, like the IRL Inquisition and various Imperial forces IRL (but in the past). Just like IRL, the Inquisition has to stop religious heresy.

What if an Inquisitor arrests someone for heresy but the Ecclesiarchy declares that that person is in compliance with doctrine and is not a heretic? Or what if the Ecclesiarchy declares a cult that the Inquisition consider critical or significant to be heretics?

By virtue of their job scope (which is fighting heresy), the Inquisition would have to obey the Ecclesiarchy on this matter and deal with the declared heretics.

Truthfully, by that time (given the bureaucracy) it is unlikely to make much difference as the inquisitor will have acted.

It may be important to note that one of the primary credos of the 40k Inquisition is, "Innocence Proves Nothing". By Imperial law an Inquisitor could walk up to the Ecclesiarch, declare him a Heretic, ignore any and all protests to the contrary and execute the head of the Ecclesiarchy then and there. The Inquisition answers only to the Emperor and themselves. If one Inquisitor decided the ENTIRE ECCLESIARCHY were heretics they could start killing them all and the only ones with the authority to stop them would be their fellow Inquisitors (and, well, the Emperor).

Edit: It may also be of note that the Inquisition is not (strictly speaking) a religious inquisition like the ones we've seen historically. The were founded before the Ecclesiarchy whilst the Emperor still had a ban on religion in effect.

When it comes to the persecution of those who deviate too hard from the Imperial faith, those responsibilities technically fall under the Ecclesiarchy. Theyre the ones who are nominally responsible for monitoring how religious expression evolves on a given world and take corrective action when necessary. Naturally, there is some overlap with the responsibilities of the Ordo Hereticus who have a broader mandate to protect humanity from itself, and as a result of that they often work together for common goals.

That said, the Ordo Hereticus' duties include policing the Ecclesiarchy, reigning them in to ensure we don't see another Reign of Blood. This mandate would include killing rogue priests and even higher authority figures if necessary, to be sure, but it would be very, very difficult for one Inquisitor to wage a war against the entire organization and live. Such an Inquisitor would likely end up coming into conflict with other Inquisitors that have a friendlier relationship with the ecclesiarchy, and beyond that, when the ecclesiarchy inevitably kills said Inquisitor the rest of the Inquisition would be more inclined to declare them a radical than risk bringing both organizations into open conflict.

InquisitorKnickers wrote:

Edit: It may also be of note that the Inquisition is not (strictly speaking) a religious inquisition like the ones we've seen historically. The were founded before the Ecclesiarchy whilst the Emperor still had a ban on religion in effect.

that is a rather recent addition though. the original intent of including the Inquisition was religiously inspired. I wonder if GW had a solution to the problem back then,


Automatically Appended Next Post:

icn1982 wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:

icn1982 wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
When the Inquisition investigates Heresy it's not about saying a prayer wrong, insulting a saint or giving lip to a priest. It's matters of bigger import - founding heretical cults that disrupt society or refusing the Emperor-given authority of Imperial institutions for example.

Heresy can be a big deal. Just look at the history of Christianity for example.

The Filioque that led to the schism between Eastern and Roman churches
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filioque

The fight of the Old Ritualists of Russia. They even mention specific changes in doctrine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believers

The Protestant Reformation which lead to so many deaths
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation

the Calvinist-inspired Dutch Revolt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Revolt


they have been way too many of such incidents in history.


Anyway, before the Inquisition can act on a heretic, he must be declared a heretic by someone. Supposedly the Ecclesiarchy. Which brings us back to my question of what power the Ecclesiarchy has over the Inquisition.

I suspect an Inquisitor will often act against someone and call them a heretic, regardless of whether they have been declared a heretic officially - its a convenient 'catch all' term as far as the inquisitors are concerned. If you are working against the Emperor, you are a heretic, as the Emperor is a god (at least that is the imperial view in the 40k universe). More likely, the inquisitor has acted for his own reasons, but rather than explaining this to people who don't need to know the specifics he simply says that they are/were a heretic. This alone will be enough for people to quickly put distance between themselves and the person. Ultimately, the inquisition don't need any permission to act against any person, the only requirement is that the individual inquisitor deems them a threat to the Imperium of Mankind and words such as heretic or traitor are only required to give a reason to people who don't need to know the reason why he acted.

But the Inquisition also enforces religious compliance, like the IRL Inquisition and various Imperial forces IRL (but in the past). Just like IRL, the Inquisition has to stop religious heresy.

What if an Inquisitor arrests someone for heresy but the Ecclesiarchy declares that that person is in compliance with doctrine and is not a heretic? Or what if the Ecclesiarchy declares a cult that the Inquisition consider critical or significant to be heretics?

By virtue of their job scope (which is fighting heresy), the Inquisition would have to obey the Ecclesiarchy on this matter and deal with the declared heretics.

Truthfully, by that time (given the bureaucracy) it is unlikely to make much difference as the inquisitor will have acted.

But if the Ecclesiarchal ruling is against the Inquisition? People would have been slaughtered for naught.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Captain Joystick wrote:
When it comes to the persecution of those who deviate too hard from the Imperial faith, those responsibilities technically fall under the Ecclesiarchy. Theyre the ones who are nominally responsible for monitoring how religious expression evolves on a given world and take corrective action when necessary. Naturally, there is some overlap with the responsibilities of the Ordo Hereticus who have a broader mandate to protect humanity from itself, and as a result of that they often work together for common goals.

That said, the Ordo Hereticus' duties include policing the Ecclesiarchy, reigning them in to ensure we don't see another Reign of Blood. This mandate would include killing rogue priests and even higher authority figures if necessary, to be sure, but it would be very, very difficult for one Inquisitor to wage a war against the entire organization and live. Such an Inquisitor would likely end up coming into conflict with other Inquisitors that have a friendlier relationship with the ecclesiarchy, and beyond that, when the ecclesiarchy inevitably kills said Inquisitor the rest of the Inquisition would be more inclined to declare them a radical than risk bringing both organizations into open conflict.

Its not about waging war though, its about religious authority. Earlier I said "What if an Inquisitor arrests someone for heresy but the Ecclesiarchy declares that that person is in compliance with doctrine and is not a heretic? Or what if the Ecclesiarchy declares a cult that the Inquisition consider critical or significant to be heretics?"

If the Inquisition could decide heresy then they would be their own Ecclesiarchy and there would be no need for a separate Ecclesiarchy. Both organizations would be one, just like IRL, when the Inquisitions were subordinate to their respective Ecclesiarchies, and not the other way around.

The thing is.

The inquisition has power on paper. Ultimate power.

Howerver if your smart. And work with the religious orders on said planet you just gained a huge network. With little work.

One has high powers, the others is the mob...
It is the mass. Working against a powerful cardinal for example make life alot harder if you openly piss one off.



The two. Are uneasy almost allies.

The Inquisition does not have ultimate power over everything. They are a secret police, they have the authority to investigate and if needed arrest or dispose of anyone in the Imperium from lowly peasant to High Lord.
However, Inquisitors do not have the authority to set state policies or alter religious doctrines. That would be usurping power from other Imperial organisation, which is actually a crime that would get the Inquisition very much riled up. Seperation of power is one of the most important doctrines of the Imperium after all.
Issues of religious doctrine are a matter of the Ecclessiarchy. The Ordo Hereticus only gets involved if said issue is a threat to the Imperium.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

icn1982 wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
When the Inquisition investigates Heresy it's not about saying a prayer wrong, insulting a saint or giving lip to a priest. It's matters of bigger import - founding heretical cults that disrupt society or refusing the Emperor-given authority of Imperial institutions for example.

Heresy can be a big deal. Just look at the history of Christianity for example.

The Filioque that led to the schism between Eastern and Roman churches
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filioque

The fight of the Old Ritualists of Russia. They even mention specific changes in doctrine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believers

The Protestant Reformation which lead to so many deaths
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation

the Calvinist-inspired Dutch Revolt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Revolt


they have been way too many of such incidents in history.


Anyway, before the Inquisition can act on a heretic, he must be declared a heretic by someone. Supposedly the Ecclesiarchy. Which brings us back to my question of what power the Ecclesiarchy has over the Inquisition.

I suspect an Inquisitor will often act against someone and call them a heretic, regardless of whether they have been declared a heretic officially - its a convenient 'catch all' term as far as the inquisitors are concerned. If you are working against the Emperor, you are a heretic, as the Emperor is a god (at least that is the imperial view in the 40k universe). More likely, the inquisitor has acted for his own reasons, but rather than explaining this to people who don't need to know the specifics he simply says that they are/were a heretic. This alone will be enough for people to quickly put distance between themselves and the person. Ultimately, the inquisition don't need any permission to act against any person, the only requirement is that the individual inquisitor deems them a threat to the Imperium of Mankind and words such as heretic or traitor are only required to give a reason to people who don't need to know the reason why he acted.

But the Inquisition also enforces religious compliance, like the IRL Inquisition and various Imperial forces IRL (but in the past). Just like IRL, the Inquisition has to stop religious heresy.

What if an Inquisitor arrests someone for heresy but the Ecclesiarchy declares that that person is in compliance with doctrine and is not a heretic? Or what if the Ecclesiarchy declares a cult that the Inquisition consider critical or significant to be heretics?

By virtue of their job scope (which is fighting heresy), the Inquisition would have to obey the Ecclesiarchy on this matter and deal with the declared heretics.

The Inquisitor would have to make a choice: Either execute the suspect and risk his good relationship with the Ecclessiarchy, which is going to make his live real hard in the future or letting the suspect live and risk a potential corruption being allowed to fester, which might result in future rebellions and other trouble for the Imperium.
The Inquisitor does not need to obey the Ecclessiarchy, as his authority exceeds theirs. But smart Inquisitors know that they need powerful allies to be able to do their job and that it is sometimes better not to offend people.

Also, it is not the Inquisition's job to act against purely religious or doctrinal heresies. If some filthy heretics for example decide to use unleavened bread in their ceremonies, that is not a matter that concerns the Inquisition. The Inquisition only acts when something is a threat to the authority of the Imperial state. For example, if said unleavened bread cult gets a wide following across the planet and decides to no longer obey the planetary governor whom they see as a dirty leavened bread heretic. Then it becomes a matter for the Inquisition. The Inquisition would also act if they suspected this unleavened bread cult was actually a front for a Chaos cult. In fact, this last issue would be the most likely reason an Inquisitor would get involved. Simple matters of disobedience of Imperial authorities on a planet are normally left to the Adeptus Arbites. The Inquisition mostly focuses on fighting threats that go beyond a single planet.

Consider this, Ultimately the Inquisitor has the power to order an exterminates, the Ecclesiarch does not. As such the Ecclesiarch would be very wary of accusing an individual Inquisitor, let alone the inquisition as a whole, lest the Inquisition declares the individual a traitor (not a heretic). Against an individual Inquisitor, they would have to have the backing of some of the more influential Inquisitors, then it will become a case of the Inquisition dealing with the individual inquisitor.

I also suspect, that declaring someone a heretic is often more a political act. If an individual is threatening the power of the Ecclesiarch, then they are likely to be branded a heretic, An with all political acts, the action would be weighed up with pro's and cons

If an inquisitor said a member of the eclesiarcy was a heretic, there would be no arguing the matter and here is why.

That's a big claim, ever heard the saying. If your going to take a shot at the king you better not miss. Same thing, that would call down the wrath of all the other inquisitors. Which you don't want so if he goes and says it, man he better be right.

An inquisitor does have supreme athority to do what ever they want and do any order, but just becuase they have that power does not mean there are no repercussions to it. They can't just give some massive order and not expect a good explanation to it. If the inquisition says do something they need to say why.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
The Inquisition investigates and prosecutes heretics, but they do so according to religious doctrine.

That doctrine is decided upon by the Ecclesiarchy.
Presumably, they can issue religious rulings and decrees, which may effect the definition(s) of heresy, thereby affecting the Inquisition's work.

There is also the issue of religious interpretation, presumably this falls under the domain of the Ecclesiarchy.

Has GW ever commented on these overlaps between the two organisations?

If you want to know who can enforce doctrine and has the right to decide what is "kosher" or not, the answer, in my opinion, is neither the Ecclesiarchy neither the Inquisition it's the Adeptas Sororitas. Amongst their key function is to survey, protect and defend the Imperial Faith, even and especially from within. The Sisters are both the strongarm of the Ecclesiarchy, purging heretics and leading Crusade on the behalf of its authority, but also the blade at its throat. The various Holy Orders of the sisterhood are each design to survey the faith and loyalty of the various institutions of the Imperium from the Dialogous who copy, translate and analyse holy texts to the Famulous who serves as notaries and teachers for noble houses and clergy members. In the end, in the case of religious interpretation debates, the one that is supported by Sisterhood will triumph.

Also, none of this happens in a vacuum. Inquisitors are obviously recruited from Imperial citizens. Which means, by the time they're inducted into the Inquisition, they've already been indoctrinated with whatever flavour of the Imperial Cult is prevalent where they come from. That's going to colour their views as an Inquisitor, even if the Inquisition as a whole is a secular organisation.

There's heresy, and then there's heresy. The Imperium has plenty of BIG problems, like Chaos Cults, rogue psykers, daemonic possession, and Genestealer Cults. Just to name a few. Plus, generals who go rogue, Space Marine Chapters that rebel against the Imperium, megalomaniac Planetary Governors who form their own religion, etc... So much work, so little time to declare a High Lord of Terra a heretic for not saying a prayer before lunch. Enforcing religious doctrine and practices is the Ecclessiarch's job. That's the work of Confessors and Preachers.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Anyway, before the Inquisition can act on a heretic, he must be declared a heretic by someone. Supposedly the Ecclesiarchy. Which brings us back to my question of what power the Ecclesiarchy has over the Inquisition.

There's a few broad points of Imperial religion that you don't really need a priest to declare someone a heretic over, like having other gods than the Emperor, disobeying your lawful superiors, harboring unsanctioned psykers, being a mutant or failing to pay the tithes. It's clear to everyone and the Inquisition can handle it without bothering a Cardinal for his PoV (though it could be politically expedient to do so). If the Cardinal disagrees he's obviously protecting a heretic and can expect the SoB to visit him pretty soon.

 Gobbla wrote:
There's heresy, and then there's heresy. The Imperium has plenty of BIG problems, like Chaos Cults, rogue psykers, daemonic possession, and Genestealer Cults. Just to name a few. Plus, generals who go rogue, Space Marine Chapters that rebel against the Imperium, megalomaniac Planetary Governors who form their own religion, etc... So much work, so little time to declare a High Lord of Terra a heretic for not saying a prayer before lunch. Enforcing religious doctrine and practices is the Ecclessiarch's job. That's the work of Confessors and Preachers.

Do they have the power to arrest, detain, interrogate though?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spetulhu wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Anyway, before the Inquisition can act on a heretic, he must be declared a heretic by someone. Supposedly the Ecclesiarchy. Which brings us back to my question of what power the Ecclesiarchy has over the Inquisition.

There's a few broad points of Imperial religion that you don't really need a priest to declare someone a heretic over, like having other gods than the Emperor, disobeying your lawful superiors, harboring unsanctioned psykers, being a mutant or failing to pay the tithes. It's clear to everyone and the Inquisition can handle it without bothering a Cardinal for his PoV (though it could be politically expedient to do so). If the Cardinal disagrees he's obviously protecting a heretic and can expect the SoB to visit him pretty soon.

Well, my whole OP is not about the times when it works, but about the times when there is contention. Supposedly the Ecclesiarchy holds the final word over doctrine, like the IRL RCC decreed during the Council of Trent in response to Protestantism. Unless the Imperial Law states that both Ecclesiarchy and Inquisitors hold the final word over doctrine, in which case the Inquisitors would be like mini-cardinals in their own right.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Well, my whole OP is not about the times when it works, but about the times when there is contention. Supposedly the Ecclesiarchy holds the final word over doctrine, like the IRL RCC decreed during the Council of Trent in response to Protestantism. Unless the Imperial Law states that both Ecclesiarchy and Inquisitors hold the final word over doctrine, in which case the Inquisitors would be like mini-cardinals in their own right.

Well, that's a somewhat different point. An Inquisitor is not usually a priest but he does act under the authority of the Emperor himself - this isn't a simple question of legal rights, it's about tradition, customs and habits. Doctrine is millennia old, and there's a lot of leeway to interprete it when, say, bringing in a newly rediscovered human world or something. The church is responsible for such things and the Inquisition only steps in if it seems to be adverse to Imperial interests.

An Inquisitor holds infinitely more power than any Cardinal on paper, but his work would never be succesful unless the populace dutifully reported deviance to their parish priests who then passed it on higher. A local priest declaring something? Inquisitors can and probably have done away with such if they thought him dangerous. A big famous Cardinal declaring something? Only a very powerful Inquisitor would gainsay him. The Ecclesiarch himself declaring some sect or direction of faith heretical? Yes, good luck there - the Inquisition isn't going to oppose that unless it's immediately and very obviously dangerous for the IoM. The Inquisition is mostly happy to stay within the bonds of religion as the Ecclesiarchy has set - they care not (very much) for the doctrine itself but for whether it makes people pay their tithes and support the IoM.

So yes, I'd agree that the Ecclesiarchy has the "final" word on it. But they're very very slow to take action because they don't want to mess with any other Imperial institutions. They've patiently watched Space Marines not worshipping the Emperor as a god, after all, or the Machine Cult worshipping him as the embodiment of technological knowledge. The Vandire Heresy goes to show how bad it can get when someone goes off the rails and does what he wants instead of thinking of the bigger picture. That poor Ecclesiarch might get a bolt shell in the head from his SoB bodyguard before his new ideas even bother the Inquisition.

Spetulhu wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:
That poor Ecclesiarch might get a bolt shell in the head from his SoB bodyguard before his new ideas even bother the Inquisition.

Well, the SoB would need to be more well-versed in doctrine than the Ecclesiarch. Which seems unlikely.



Do you agree with me that there is power-sharing that is not very well defined?

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Do you agree with me that there is power-sharing that is not very well defined?

That is the whole idea with the IoM, isn't it? "They" meaning the High Lords of Terra (I guess) want their own faction to have as much power as possible, but they also want it so that no single faction can overpower the others. So even if the Ecclesiarch is supposed to have ultimate power when it comes to deciding on religious doctrine the others aren't going to let him do so except in the broadest terms so as to keep their own guys free to handle things their own way.

And of course the whole setting is made by a few guys from England who think the Catholic Church might have been cool but actually have no idea about the doctrines or historical motives behind any of it. The power of the Pope varied wildly, depending on which kings and emperors agreed to it and how exposed they were to other powers. The Spanish Inquisition got as bad as it did because the Spanish monarchs kept the Pope's initial letters of founding and basically ignored any protests he sent after that - he didn't have the political power to make them obey like some earlier kings that were excommunicated and forced to do something about it. Others separated from the Church (Protestants, Anglicans) and defended their point either with war (Sweden) or just by being too out of the way for anyone to correct (England). A very simplified interpretation obviously, so don't think I'm trying to be a final authority on church doctrine. ;-)

Not Inquisitors, but one of the 'Shira Calpurnia' novels has a bit with the Arbites & Ecclesiarchy trying to outmanoeuvre each other over who gets a suspect.

(And it's also said that SoBs can execute Arbites if they feel they've broken the religious laws)

Maximus Bitch wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:
That poor Ecclesiarch might get a bolt shell in the head from his SoB bodyguard before his new ideas even bother the Inquisition.

Well, the SoB would need to be more well-versed in doctrine than the Ecclesiarch. Which seems unlikely.



Do you agree with me that there is power-sharing that is not very well defined?

The Adeptus Soritas is part of the Ecclesiarchy, some of the non-combat orders are going to be extremely well versed in doctrine as that's their entire point of existence and will probably advise the Battle Sister orders on the finer points if needed.