Switch Theme:

What makes a good Ratkin force? Fantasy converter  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in ca
Monstrous Master Moulder



Space Cowboy Cruising Around Olympus Mons

Hi everyone,
So recently went back home and went to the local hobby store that I frequently went to and played Fantasy at when I was living in that area of the province. Chatted it up with the store owner who I knew wasn't a fan of AoS and it just so happened that there was a Kings of War tournament going on that day.
Turns out that about half the Fantasy players turned to Kings of War for their fantasy battle gaming.

I was intrigued so picked up the main rulebook and the uncharted empires expansion.
Now I have a fairly substantial skaven for (like 6500-7500 points I lost control haha) anyways I am wondering what makes a couple.petitive build or at least a winning one in a casual setting. I am used to the classic skaven approach of 2 blocks of 50 slaves, couple big hordes of storms and plague monks, warp lightning cannons a GPA and then some wizards (doomrocket please) and a grey seer.

Since this is a totally different game I don't know how to build a decent force.

Was thinking 2 hordes of shock troops, a horde of blight or maybe two regiments, couple regiments of regular warriors and then 2 weapon teams, death engine, mutant rat fiend, heard the demon spawn is good. Also wouldn't mind 2 troop choices of clawshots

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/04 19:13:42


 
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority






There are several keys in KoW...

The first is to have a flexible force - an army that shines in some scenarios may fare poorly in another, so have an army that can change tactics on the fly.

The second Defense in depth - fragile small units can be used to protect the flanks of larger units - getting flanked sucks! in Kings of War. As you describe your force, this will be a weakness for you.

Third - movement. You will often read people stating that Kings of War is won in the movement phase - and there is very much a reason for people to say so. (I would actually say that Kings of War is won in the deployment and movement phases - a bad deployment can cripple the effectiveness of your force.)

This means that those huge blocks of Hordes and Legions can be seriously hampered by terrain - and you will quickly find that KoW players tend to love having terrain on the table. I would drop down to one Horde and use the points to get some screening forces - and put the Potion of the Caterpillar on that horde for your magic item.

Fourth - Time limits! My favorite part of the game is having the time limit - because that is exactly where I am weakest. If I am given the opportunity to plot and scheme, I may never get around to moving my troops. Having the time limit means that I am forced to get my moves in - which means planning my moves while my opponent is taking theirs. (I actually do better with the time limit - less double thinking.)

Fifth - Magic and missile fire are generally more useful as support than as the main source of damage. But a major exception is Surge - which allows movement and even charges to take place in the missile phase - and which can mean that a shambling missile unit can shoot then charge in the same turn. The Empire of Dust army is pretty much built around Surge....

The Auld Grump

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/04 22:59:46


Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.

The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
Made in ca
Monstrous Master Moulder



Space Cowboy Cruising Around Olympus Mons

Thanks for those tips!
I am used to using chaff units in fantasy with giant rats but am thinking maybe just basic slaves as the chaff here (can't recall their KoW name)

Breaking the army up into regiments might make the board a little crowded with rating won't it? I found with my skaven force my standard 2k lists had lots of units so manueverability was lacking definitely.

I have every unit except a few and about 260 clanrats, 80 stormvermin, 80 plaguemonks, 2-4 of every warmachine, weapon team etc so I just need to find a way to make an effective force that is maneuverable and deadly.

I'd like to go stormvermin/shock troop heavy and then some shooting if possible. How effective is ratkin shooting? Clawshots, warriors with light crossbows plus some warmachines would be good.

What are the best units for ratkin? Heard demonspawn with wings is excellent!
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




Ratkin shooting is very nice, weapon teams are a very good units to cover your rear lines (just remember that as war engines they cannot move at the double, so deploy them with caution).

You can build very different lists and still have a perfectly competitve army, KoW is not won during the army list selection. You will see some units recommended as must have, but very often it's more than the recommended unit is easy to use, but not always the optimal tool.

for exemple the Demonspawn (Verminlord) is a beast, and if you add the wings options, it's a true monster that can fight dragons and can do any job, even support nearby ratkins with inspiring and rallying(2), fire at long range with a decent lightning bolt(5) while you are getting in position, and finally use is 13 attacks in melee. (the number is not a coincidence )

Will the wings, it's a very powerful and mobile unit that is easy to use, and many early ratkin armies included one, but the problem is that with the wings he cost as much as a hero on dragon (normal as he is in the same power level as one), and like a dragon, it's not always easy to use it at his best, as if you send him too far alone, you won't get to benefit from his inspiring (well, he can still inspire himself at least) and rallying rules.
If you are always in melee, lightning bolt won't see much use. And if you simply keep close to your other units, then maybe you might have done without the wings. And finally if you send him to kill weak units behing your ennemy lines, then you are probably overkilling them and using a 300+ point monster to hunt units and war engines worth less than 100 point each.

Make no error, the Demonspawn *is* a very good unit, it's just that a beginner might comes to rely on it too much, and due to the point cost be at a disadvantage with the rest of his army, giving even more the impression that the Demonspawn is required, and resulting ina vicious circle of the player relying on it more and more and not learning how to better use the rest of the army.

Now, you sometimes see one, but many players are trying to do without it, finding that you don't *need* him to win.

That said, my advice would be to first try to make an army as balanced as you can, able to compete in all aspects of the game, and learn from there what play style fit you the best before you over invest in any one kind of unit or tactic.

For slaves, they are nice and cheap, and many other armies would like to have them, but it's also true that many ratkin players already take many warriors or shock troops hordes, and as the slaves are irregular and don't provide rallying and don't give you slots for your heros/war engines/monsters, it might sometimes bee hard to use them as hordes too as it would make your army too unwieldy.

That's why armies with already a lot of other infantry hordes will tend to prefer using slave regiment as cheap chaff to cover their flank or serve as a screen.

If however you take less of the other infantry hordes or if you have a battle plan that combine those other hordes with slave hordes, like for exemple deploying in two waves with a screen of a slave horde for each warrior or shock troop horde hidden behin, then slave hordes or legions are perfectly viables.

Note : remember than you can move across your own units when not charging, provided that you have enough move to end on the other side. This mean that if your slave screen is heavily damaged but not dead yet, you might move at the double with the fresh unit behint to put it in front.

The damaged slaves might then serve as a new reserve force for later, maybe surviving the game and not giving any point, or they might hold objective while the fresh unit do the heavy fighting.

This can also work the other way of course, I once had a brute (rat ogre) horde in front of my battle line that took heavy damage from a early war engine hit, and they would probably have died at the first charge against them, instead I move slaves that were in reserve behing them to the front, and the brutes where now in cover, they were still exposed to another lucky artillery hit (indirect war engine ignore cover), but normal shooting now had a cover and the brute survived until the end of the game thanks to that manoeuver.
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority






It is also worth mentioning that the Slave Legion can become an insurmountable roadblock right in the freakin' middle of the table when it meets up with another Legion. (Zombies vs. Slaves... the game ended months ago, but as far as I know those two units are still in the middle of the battlefield, still locked in combat after everyone else got bored and left....)

The Auld Grump

Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.

The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

 chiefbigredman wrote:
Was thinking 2 hordes of shock troops, a horde of blight or maybe two regiments, couple regiments of regular warriors and then 2 weapon teams, death engine, mutant rat fiend, heard the demon spawn is good. Also wouldn't mind 2 troop choices of clawshots
Funnily enough, I don't think that's a bad place to start playing KOW. Something like this:

Demonspawn
Warlock - inspiring talisman
Swarm-Crier

Shock Troops Horde
Shock Troops Horde
Blight Horde
Warriors Regiment
Warriors Regiment
Clawshots Troop
Clawshots Troop

Mutant Rat-Fiend
Death Engine - vile sorcery

Weapon Team
Weapon Team

Impressively light on magic items too, even by my standards! Has lots of great units from the faction, good shooting presence, solid combat, lots of Rally! sources to push those Nerve values, etc. I would have liked to stuff some Bane Chant in there, to give the Blight in particular a little more bite, but the Shock Troops are pimps and they've got friends with Crushing / Piercing to back them up.

- Salvage

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/06 19:04:21


KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in us
Hunting Glade Guard




York, PA

Weapon Teams with the +1 piercing are almost a must-have. Death Engine with vile sorcery are also top notch. Just about every ratkin opponent I've come across as at least 3 weapon teams and 1 or 2 shooty Death Engines.
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




The Piercing upgrade on the weapon teams is not cheap, sometimes you just want one without the upgrade as a cheap way to to some damage on almost anything.

It's true however that some players using the Clash of Kings pack limiting them to 3 might want them all upgraded as an alternative to buying more, but it's certainly not an automatic upgrade for me (but it's of course still a very nice option).

Compare with the elven dragon brath, for 90 points you get breath attack(15) + elite instead of breath attack(10), yet the elven verion is much less used, why ?

Well first elven armies tend to have very few hordes so they have a harder time finding the slots to take them, but in addition while the increase in offensive power is more or less proporitional to the points, the elven version put much more power into an unit that is not much harder to kill than the ratkin one.

In other words, 3 ratkin weapon teams will have a similar offensive output to 2 elven dragon breaths for a similar point cost (well, depending on upgrades), but the ratkin we be able to split fire on up to 3 targets compared to the elven 2, will give you more cheap drops for deployment, and il will take similar efforts from your opponent to kill one of eitheir most of the time, so the 3 ratkin teams will be 50% harder to kill off.

Back to the original topic, the piercing upgrade does improve notably the offensive power of the weapon teams, but it also increase their points to closer to the elven version, and to some of their limits.

Of course, they are still very good, but upgrading them means that you invested more in your glass canons and that losing them will be a greater loss than without.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




NoVA

jtrowell wrote:


Compare with the elven dragon brath, for 90 points you get breath attack(15) + elite instead of breath attack(10), yet the elven verion is much less used, why ?

Well first elven armies tend to have very few hordes so they have a harder time finding the slots to take them


I think your first answer might be the reason, but I'm surprised more elf players don't take them. I think they should.

I play TK and my friend plays Elves. I take 2 breaths and he takes 3 and we've been doing very well. It's a relatively cheap drop for Elves too. Fitting in a second breath is pretty much the reason I take Abyssal Rider horde over Dark Knights regiment.

Back on topic...

I fear the weapon teams and the death engine. Ratkin are a very good army with a lot of options. I like the idea of vermintide sitting in front of breath weapon/lightning units also. I dabbled with abyssal dwarfs for awhile and I was tempted to ally in Ratkin just for vermintide to sit in front of my decimators.

Playing: Droids (Legion), Starks (ASOIAF), BB2
Working on: Starks (ASOIAF), Twilight Kin (KoW). Droids (Legion)
 
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




One option with abyssals dwarves is to deploy your breath weapons in a way that they have some kind of height 2+ unit(s) more or less in front of them.

This way you can hide your decimator and dragon teams behing your other infantry units, and still get a line of sight (with cover but you ignore it with breath weapons) toward cavalry, large infantry and mosnters among other things.

This also works nicely with indirect weapons, so ratkin artillery or the very nice war engines of the abyssal dwarves.
   
 
Forum Index » Mantic Miniature Games (Kings of War, etc.)
Go to: