Bring Your Chaos Tears

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**Jancoran**

stealth992 wrote:
8 years of Chaos VS Eldar

8 years ago I got into 40k with a buddy of mine. I bought CSM and he bought Eldar. At that time our armies were fairly balanced verses each other and we had a lot of fun. We made sure that we bought what we thought was cool and to stay away from the stuff we knew was "the best" in each codex. My buddy bought Khaine, dire avengers, banshees, fire dragons, wave serpents, and a falcon. I bought Abaddon, csm, khorne berzerkers, terminators, rhinos and defilers. We saw a few new rule books come out over time, but we found that our armies remained evenly matched. We had a lot of fun.
Right before the newest Eldar codex came out, another one of my friends picked up a used Eldar force which included wave serpents, wraithguard, fire prism, and guardians. He went on to buy a wraith knight, which he thought was the coolest thing ever, more wraithguard, more wave serpents, more jetbikes...
I took on the challenge. I believed that with enough creativity and tactical ingenuity, even Chaos could defeat the mighty Eldar. I've done it before, I'll do it again. I bought Obliterators even though I vowed when I first started playing that I'd never play them. I studied all the supplemental codex's to figure out what my options are, I teamed up with Daemons, I proxied, I used imperial guard, I used psychic powers, I slowly moved farther and farther away from the close combat bash and slash style that got me into 40k in the first place, and made lists where I squeezed in as many lascannons as I possibly could into an army. I could win sometimes, but it was a stretch. And at the end of the day, it just wasn't fun playing like this. Always trying to made the perfect efficient list to compete with a codex that can pretty much slap together any combination of units and be more competitive.
When Khorne Daemonkin came out... I reclaimed my gaming identity. I'm a bloody Chaos player. I'm a Khorne fanatic, and I want nothing but to run in and bash some skulls. I picked up this codex with incredible excitement, ready to finally destroy the Eldar. But I soon found myself wondering, where is Kharn, the champion of Khorne? Why do bloodcrushers suck so bad? Why didn't GW fix my defilers? Don't they know they are over costed? How come I don't have any realistic assault options for my assault army? Why can't Bloodthirsters assault the turn after they deep strike? These questions run through my mind as I get blown to smithereens by strength D weapons.
Then Traitor's Hate came out. Meh. All it is to me is proof that we will not get the changes we need anytime soon. That's the truth.

So now, after all the time, money, blood and sweat, it's come to this. I'm just another whiny Chaos kid.

But don't get me wrong, I still love 40k. I'll never sell my army. I still enjoy myself, in a twisted way, when I'm getting mashed to a pulp. The problem is, I really just don't understand. The game just doesn't make any sense.

CSM players, how do you go on with your wounds?
Eldar players, how lonely is the top?

Share with me your story Chaos and Eldar players!

I play Night lords. Your life is instantly better when you play Night Lords because the fluff is exquisite and the models are just ridiculous to begin with..

i do not lose that much with Chaos Space Marine, but I do understand where the frustration comes from (somewhat). Eldar have the very weakness we are designed well to handle so it makes it a bit easier than against some armies. Eldar rely on Scatter Bikes, which Heldrakes eat for lunch, the WraithKnight against which Missiles are generally capable of at least whittling to the point of being managable, the Chaos Marines have the answer to the Wraithguard, which are sort of the nuclear deterrent against charges via Dirge Casters and of course, with the ability to kind of play MSU, the Chaos Marines are also able to have the sacrificial charger against those same WraithGuard.

The thing about bating Eldar like that isn't whether you can or not. You can. The real issue is whether it's fun. I personally don't have a lot of fun playing against it, especially the WraithKnight since it changes entire armies and the way they are built which is far tyoo much impact on the game in my opinion. How do i deal with that? Like most, i just had to modify my army and accept the new reality.

So now i play with three Singular Obliterators, 3 singular Mutilators, the Heldrake, three Chaos marine units in rhinos with Dirge Casters and a Chaos Lord to bring the pain and Fearlessness the Raptors need. i (now) add the Raptor Talon Formation and stuff about 29 Raptors into it with meltaguns, and a Chaos Lord that wields the Eye of Night. The only thing I wish is that I could afford a third Chaos Lord to join the third Raptor unit but i suppose you can't have everything.

This formula allows me to compete with the Eldar and pretty much everything else. Every Eldar player comes with a different variation on the same theme these days. Just like back in the Wave Spam days, most Eldar have caught on to the new hotness and they use it to the extent their collection allows.

Keep fighting. As you say the game is fun. You might just have to get creative in order to negate the strengths of the Eldar. I think the world of Dirge Casters, i think that Nurgle allows the Raptors to perform much better and the new Raptor Talon formation makes it entirely possible for the Night Lords to get at the enemy without losing their ass as they cross the field of battle.

I wish you well!

**Slayer-Fan123**

rusty4tw wrote:
Chaos isn't in such a bad spot anymore. Traitor's Hate literally changed the game. I thought Khorne Daemonkin would be our saviour, but as it stands, Traitor's Hate has a great detachment with some really interesting options. Turn 1 Charges, 2++ rerollable inv saves, plenty of WC to cast with, access to solid support and reserves control, Chaos has many more tools than before.

Traitor's Hate redefines Chaos in a way that Angels of Death really didn't. Traitor's Hate makes some wargear that was completely useless, now very useful, Hand of Darkness, Crucible of Lies, Murder Sword, just to name a few. The only way to find out is to open your mind and explore what used to be, and compare it to what is.

Chaos no longer is bottom tier with Orks, that's reserved for the Greenskins alone, unfortunately. Traitor's Hate Chaos is a contender.

I'm not sure what you're smoking, but none of those relics became more useful, especially that piece of Garbage known as the Murder Sword.

**Jancoran**

No i agree here. Traitors hate is really cool and the Black Legion book is and was good. I have used the Eye of Night and the Hand of Darkness in my force for quite some time. the Hand of Darkness is fantastic. A Powerfist that does not go last, wounds on 2's and instant Death? Yes please. it allows you to whittle the WraithKnight by say, 2-3 wounds with shooting and then whallop him. lesser creatures in challenges like it even less. and if they refuse the challenge, all the better.

The other plus is the way you can start piling on Boons.

The Eye of Night is just killer. There are few weapons that can do that much damage to that many targets all at once and reliably, for less than the price of a Nurgle Obliterator or so. it's a big fat waste of points against some forces that do not rely on armor, but then... by that standard, you'd never take a Lascannon ever again, so that's not really that relevant. Having a tool for every kind of opponent is important. The Eye of Night is just spectacular in the general sense against some fo the things Chaos fears most.

I'd also add that Traitors Hate gives the Renegade Knights information as well and the Renegade Knights can take not one but TWO Gatling cannons which is just absurd amounts of firepower. So while i personally have never had any kind of Imperial Knight in any army, I'm not blind. 24 shots per round AP 3 rending? Good lawd. I know of very few things that can delete a unit as thoroughly as that can.

**Slayer-Fan123**

You're literally one of the only people to defend those relics and everyone knows you're not a competitive player.

**Jancoran**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're literally one of the only people to defend those relics and everyone knows you're not a competitive player.

They...do?

Well... i mean I'm in the top 3% of the ranked ITC players (4010 of them), as I've told you before (and i still am). I think most would disagree with you there (who know what they are talking about, that is).

I think you have me confused with someone else.

**ZebioLizard2**

I'm honestly more curious how you deal with the Single attack with ID and actually getting close enough to use it. I actually want to like those artifacts but they tend to be more expensive then should be.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Jancoran wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're literally one of the only people to defend those relics and everyone knows you're not a competitive player.

They...do?

Well... i mean I'm in the top 3% of the ranked ITC players (4010 of them), as I've told you before (and i still am). I think most would disagree with you there (who know what they are talking about, that is).

I think you have me confused with someone else.

Ah yes and that's why the relics get so much use and CSM armies appear a lot.

**Jancoran**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I'm honestly more curious how you deal with the Single attack with ID and actually getting close enough to use it. I actually want to like those artifacts but they tend to be more expensive then should be.

Well as i said, i play Night Lords. Delivering it is easy. As aforementioned the Raptor Talon Formation is the best thing since sliced bread for Night Lords. I literally didnt have to change my list much to accomodate it.

it allows you t odrop and assault the turn you show up. So fist drops...and...charges. Kaching!

Surviving is a dice thing. but as for delivery, no sweat.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're literally one of the only people to defend those relics and everyone knows you're not a competitive player.

They...do?

Well... i mean I'm in the top 3% of the ranked ITC players (4010 of them), as I've told you before (and i still am). I think most would disagree with you there (who know what they are talking about, that is).

I think you have me confused with someone else.

Ah yes and that's why the relics get so much use and CSM armies appear a lot.

Do you think it matters to me whether you personally "get" their value or not?

You can do one of two things. First you can bend your mind around the problem and work out HOW to use it well. Option two is to spend your points elsewhere. I'm actually okay with whatever you decide. What you don't get to do is tell me I'm wrong because i'm "not even a competitive player". Lol. That, sir, is absurdity. lots of people don't use lots of useful things for all kinds of reasons. That's their choice. it's your choice. But since we're on a forum, i am going to share what i know and what I know is, they are highly effective whenever i have used them. While bad dice happen, good things happen when average dice happen. =)

**Slayer-Fan123**

And average dice show you are barely inflicting above half a wound on a Wraithknight without a Shield, and .4 with it, meaning that ID mechanic is unlikely to come into play. So average dice is saying it is a bad weapon against a Wraithknight even though you JUST said it was perfect for finishing a Wraithknight off.

**XT-1984**

A good counter to Eldar is that new Formation from the Curse of the Wulfen book and Be'lakor.

1 Herald of Tzeentch on a Disc
3 Screamers of Tzeentch
3 Screamers of Tzeentch
3 Screamers of Tzeentch
3 Screamers of Tzeentch
3 Screamers of Tzeentch
3 Screamers of Tzeentch
3 Screamers of Tzeentch
3 Screamers of Tzeentch
3 Screamers of Tzeentch

1 Be'lakor

Be'lakor Swoops and all nine units of Screamers put 1 model within 6" of him after they've moved.

Be'lakor casts Shrouding, suddenly all 27 Screamers can jink for a 2+ rerollable cover save.

Also Be'lakor has Psychic Shriek to take a few Wounds off a Wraithknight, and Fleshbane to finish it off in combat if he makes it in.

Sure this isn't new to anyone but this is what I would do if my housemate started cheesing his Eldar too much.

As for pure CSM, yes they are bad. But looks like we'll be getting Daemon Primarchs soon, hopefully it'll be a Gargantuan Monstrous Creature by the looks of it too!

**Akiasura**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And average dice show you are barely inflicting above half a wound on a Wraithknight without a Shield, and .4 with it, meaning that ID mechanic is unlikely to come into play. So average dice is saying it is a bad weapon against a Wraithknight even though you JUST said it was perfect for finishing a Wraithknight off.

Let's stop before this turns into a 16 page thread with no one getting anywhere lol.

You're not going to convince him of anything. Ever. It's pointless.

**Martel732**

"24 shots per round AP 3 rending? Good lawd. I know of very few things that can delete a unit as thoroughly as that can. "

Riptide don't care.

" by that standard, you'd never take a Lascannon ever again, so that's not really that relevant."

Now that you mention it, I don't use lascannons anymore. Because they suck.

**Jancoran**

There rae no half wounds in 40K. also, instant death doesnt inflict just one wound. Also, Unlikely is a strange word to use given that he cannot really avoid the charge. Like i said: you are free to eschew it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
"24 shots per round AP 3 rending? Good lawd. I know of very few things that can delete a unit as thoroughly as that can. "

Riptide don't care.

" by that standard, you'd never take a Lascannon ever again, so that's not really that relevant."

Now that you mention it, I don't use lascannons anymore. Because they suck.

Riptides do care. 24 gives you 4 rends. Maybe they get their shield up and maybe they don't. Woe betide the Riptide who doesn't, although to be fair it seems unlikely that the Renegade Knight is going to target a Riptide with its shield up, above other targets it could hit (unless there just arent any good ones i suppose in which case it's going to cause some damage).

Anywho, point is, Traitors Hate contains a lot of good stuff for Chaos Marines to use and obviously no one is going to rightly claim that 24 shots like that is anything but awesome firepower. if something is tough enough to take it, good for them!

**Martel732**

"24 gives you 4 rends."

24 gives you 2.66 rends, because you still have to roll to hit. 2.66 AP 2 wounds is nothing to a riptide. You just fired your expensive walker and accomplished nothing.

The renegade knight to me is just a another day at work for the Eldar. It's awesome for the CSM, because it gives them a taste of the Eldar's power.

**Jancoran**

I play this game at tournaments and if I saw a Renegade Kight with two of those, i wouldnt be as cavalier as you are. Lol.

I again am fine with whatever you want to do but understand that you are TACITLY ignoring what i said, which is that its unlikely he'd be firing it at a shielded Riptide anyways. So there's that.

But then you are a downer about almost everything, especially your Blood Angels so i do not expect any form of optimism from you when talking 40K Martel732. I've come to accept that anyone who tells you anything is good will be met withthis very predictable response. Sigh.

**Martel732**

I can't afford to be cavalier with BA, but if I were rocking the Tau or Eldar you can bet I'd be cavalier. Because at the end of the day, IKs are still overcosted compared to GMCs.

Is there such a thing as a non-shielded Riptide to shoot at? Even a Riptide without a shield is getting 5++/5+++ against the rends.

"'ve come to accept that anyone who tells you anything is good will be met withthis very predictable response"

It depends on whether the thing you are telling me is good is actually good. You're gonna have to look long and hard to find such a thing in the BA codex.

**Jancoran**

Martel732 wrote:
I can't afford to be cavalier with BA, but if I were rocking the Tau or Eldar you can bet I'd be cavalier. Because at the end of the day, IKs are still overcosted compared to GMCs.

Is there such a thing as a non-shielded Riptide to shoot at? Even a Riptide without a shield is getting 5++/5+++ against the rends.

"'ve come to accept that anyone who tells you anything is good will be met withthis very predictable response"

It depends on whether the thing you are telling me is good is actually good. You're gonna have to look long and hard to find such a thing in the BA codex.

My point, made manifest.

**Martel732**

Doesn't mean I'm wrong. You are not automatically right because you go to more tournaments.

**Jancoran**

Martel732 wrote:
Doesn't mean I'm wrong. You are not automatically right because you go to more tournaments.

Newp. That's true. I'm just right. No tournaments necessary on this one.

**Martel732**

Right about what?

You weren't right about the number of rends generated, and you grossly exaggerated the harm it would cause a Riptide.

Bad armies like BA and Orks have to fear the Renegade Knight. Good armies can tank the damage or just kill the thing.

You are correc that Traitor's Hate is pretty good, but the CSM are still largely victims in 7th ed.

**Jancoran**

I was right about how negative you would be.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Jancoran wrote:
There rae no half wounds in 40K. also, instant death doesnt inflict just one wound. Also, Unlikely is a strange word to use given that he cannot really avoid the charge. Like i said: you are free to eschew it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
"24 shots per round AP 3 rending? Good lawd. I know of very few things that can delete a unit as thoroughly as that can. "

Riptide don't care.

" by that standard, you'd never take a Lascannon ever again, so that's not really that relevant."

Now that you mention it, I don't use lascannons anymore. Because they suck.

Riptides do care. 24 gives you 4 rends. Maybe they get their shield up and maybe they don't. Woe betide the Riptide who doesn't, although to be fair it seems unlikely that the Renegade Knight is going to target a Riptide with its shield up, above other targets it could hit (unless there just arent any good ones i suppose in which case it's going to cause some damage).

Anywho, point is, Traitors Hate contains a lot of good stuff for Chaos Marines to use and obviously no one is going to rightly claim that 24 shots like that is anything but awesome firepower. if something is tough enough to take it, good for them!

You're right that there aren't half wounds in 40k. In other words, we would need on average 2 rounds of combat to inflict a single wound, which turns into 2 or 3.

You can't ignore math as you feel like. Hell, you got math wrong earlier in this thread and do it consistently. I don't believe you actually work with math at your job at this point.

**Martel732**

He goes to tournaments. Math doesn't apply to him.

**Slayer-Fan123**

I don't even believe that. I almost believe he makes this gak up to make us try and respect him.

**Table**

Im with Jancoran on this one. But then again. Im just a filthy casual who doesnt care about winning.

**koooaei**

Daemonkin are very decent. The problem is the more you run them, the further you move away from marines and berserkers to dogs and letters and in the end you only have a jugger lord and a few min bikes in an otherwise khorne daemon army.

**Reavas**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
There rae no half wounds in 40K. also, instant death doesnt inflict just one wound. Also, Unlikely is a strange word to use given that he cannot really avoid the charge. Like i said: you are free to eschew it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
"24 shots per round AP 3 rending? Good lawd. I know of very few things that can delete a unit as thoroughly as that can. "

Riptide don't care.

" by that standard, you'd never take a Lascannon ever again, so that's not really that relevant."

Now that you mention it, I don't use lascannons anymore. Because they suck.

Riptides do care. 24 gives you 4 rends. Maybe they get their shield up and maybe they don't. Woe betide the Riptide who doesn't, although to be fair it seems unlikely that the Renegade Knight is going to target a Riptide with its shield up, above other targets it could hit (unless there just arent any good ones i suppose in which case it's going to cause some damage).

Anywho, point is, Traitors Hate contains a lot of good stuff for Chaos Marines to use and obviously no one is going to rightly claim that 24 shots like that is anything but awesome firepower. if something is tough enough to take it, good for them!

You're right that there aren't half wounds in 40k. In other words, we would need on average 2 rounds of combat to inflict a single wound, which turns into 2 or 3.

You can't ignore math as you feel like. Hell, you got math wrong earlier in this thread and do it consistently. I don't believe you actually work with math at your job at this point.

If you don't want to piss off the people who don't understand math use percentages and it makes it simpler for all of us.

**Table**

Reavas wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
There rae no half wounds in 40K. also, instant death doesnt inflict just one wound. Also, Unlikely is a strange word to use given that he cannot really avoid the charge. Like i said: you are free to eschew it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
"24 shots per round AP 3 rending? Good lawd. I know of very few things that can delete a unit as thoroughly as that can. "

Riptide don't care.

" by that standard, you'd never take a Lascannon ever again, so that's not really that relevant."

Now that you mention it, I don't use lascannons anymore. Because they suck.

Riptides do care. 24 gives you 4 rends. Maybe they get their shield up and maybe they don't. Woe betide the Riptide who doesn't, although to be fair it seems unlikely that the Renegade Knight is going to target a Riptide with its shield up, above other targets it could hit (unless there just arent any good ones i suppose in which case it's going to cause some damage).

Anywho, point is, Traitors Hate contains a lot of good stuff for Chaos Marines to use and obviously no one is going to rightly claim that 24 shots like that is anything but awesome firepower. if something is tough enough to take it, good for them!

You're right that there aren't half wounds in 40k. In other words, we would need on average 2 rounds of combat to inflict a single wound, which turns into 2 or 3.

You can't ignore math as you feel like. Hell, you got math wrong earlier in this thread and do it consistently. I don't believe you actually work with math at your job at this point.

If you don't want to piss off the people who don't understand math use percentages and it makes it simpler for all of us.

I think what Jan is trying to impart is less about math and more about attitude. Its that you can join in the internet chorus and mantra of crying about Eldar and Riptides and how every game has three wraith knights and is all scattterbikes and objectives mean nothing along with narrative play.
Im not going to say the dirty 3 are not infact, over the top. Its clear they are.. But you can either bitch and moan like a sop or actually try to work with what you have. CSM isnt the bottom boy anymore. Traitors hate has helped out more than your local power gamer would like to admit. It may not be lolwraith knight level, but its clearly capable of holding its own against most other armies. The Codex still has major issues and we wont see a solution till mid 8th. But until then you can either work with what we have, or take your ball and go home. No sense doing anything else.

But I do have to say. I cant see how the murder sword is anything but junk. In any build. But id sure like to be shown differently.

**Reavas**

Table wrote:
Reavas wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
There rae no half wounds in 40K. also, instant death doesnt inflict just one wound. Also, Unlikely is a strange word to use given that he cannot really avoid the charge. Like i said: you are free to eschew it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
"24 shots per round AP 3 rending? Good lawd. I know of very few things that can delete a unit as thoroughly as that can. "

Riptide don't care.

" by that standard, you'd never take a Lascannon ever again, so that's not really that relevant."

Now that you mention it, I don't use lascannons anymore. Because they suck.

Riptides do care. 24 gives you 4 rends. Maybe they get their shield up and maybe they don't. Woe betide the Riptide who doesn't, although to be fair it seems unlikely that the Renegade Knight is going to target a Riptide with its shield up, above other targets it could hit (unless there just arent any good ones i suppose in which case it's going to cause some damage).

Anywho, point is, Traitors Hate contains a lot of good stuff for Chaos Marines to use and obviously no one is going to rightly claim that 24 shots like that is anything but awesome firepower. if something is tough enough to take it, good for them!

You're right that there aren't half wounds in 40k. In other words, we would need on average 2 rounds of combat to inflict a single wound, which turns into 2 or 3.

You can't ignore math as you feel like. Hell, you got math wrong earlier in this thread and do it consistently. I don't believe you actually work with math at your job at this point.

If you don't want to piss off the people who don't understand math use percentages and it makes it simpler for all of us.

I think what Jan is trying to impart is less about math and more about attitude. Its that you can join in the internet chorus and mantra of crying about Eldar and Riptides and how every game has three wraith knights and is all scattterbikes and objectives mean nothing along with narrative play.
Im not going to say the dirty 3 are not infact, over the top. Its clear they are.. But you can either bitch and moan like a sop or actually try to work with what you have. CSM isnt the bottom boy anymore. Traitors hate has helped out more than your local power gamer would like to admit. It may not be lolwraith knight level, but its clearly capable of holding its own against most other armies. The Codex still has major issues and we wont see a solution till mid 8th. But until then you can either work with what we have, or take your ball and go home. No sense doing anything else.

But I do have to say. I cant see how the murder sword is anything but junk. In any build. But id sure like to be shown differently.

Oh I completely agree, there is a vast differance between enjoying the experience of playing the game and competitive "mathhammer" play. I personally enjoy both, sometimes I bring lists with lucius and some CC noise marines with doom siren (my fav part of the lore of emperors children) and competativly I wouldnt touch him with a 10 foot pole.

Personally I find all the new suppliments finally adding up to something moderatly competative, Im starting to see some strong synergies between the codex and new formations and dataslates. Synergies such as typhus and the lost and the damned, sorcerers with heritech combined with the hellfist murderpack, even the murdersword on a lord in the raptortalon formation has a good chance of taking out its target (although I prefer other weapons and using the raptortalon to deliver some much needed melta shots into vehicles and then charging in with meltabombs)

Right at this moment CSM's main difficulty is in taking out monsterous creatures with high toughness, other than allying in daemons there are no really cheap, reliable ways to take out GMC's or MC's such as eldar wraiths or riptides and stormsurges. There is tarpitting and even plasma guns on bikes to a lesser degree. But every top tier codex you will find has very reliable ways to deal with GMC's and MC's and imo that is what sets them apart as top tier codexes, space marines has grav, eldar have D, all necron models wound on 6 reguardless, tau just has incredible abouts of high strength weaponry.

And as a side note to any slanneshi CSM players we are in a great position with the new suppliments, from the initial release of the codex we have had the ability to deal with scatterbikes, ravenwing bikes, and jink based screamerstars as well as tau steath cadre's with relative ease thanks to our sonic equipment. With the new traitors hate we can ramp things up from average to pretty great in terms of competativness.

**Akiasura**

Relative ease thanks to sonic equipment...?
It's...it's a small blast template. It scores 1-2 hits per turn. On a unit that is prohibitively expensive and slow.

And that 5 man scat bike squad can inflict ~5 wounds, and wipe the min squad of noise marines. Chaos has no real answer to Eldar. The supplements have made them stronger, just not enough where they can compete with the big boys.