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There is an art to putting your furiosos where the effort to explode them wrecks your opponent's game to the maximum extent. AV 13 is no joke in many circumstances. Yes, melta and grav, but that's just the risk you take with walkers. Furisos really only suffer badly against completely meched up foes. This is from the perspective of never using the meltagun option. I just want maximum template carnage.

I think the formation is good even without the double tapping upon drop pod.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
At that point you're just better off with the Skyhammer when you combat squad and have two grav cannons in each squad and maybe a Combi-Flamer on one of them to scare chargers.

The problem with Skyhammer is you have no tactical flexibility. You're locked into podding them. And as stated in this thread there's a lot of ways to outmanuever or blunt a Grav drop.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/705297.page

What I'm thinking here is you essentially give up 1x Obsec Pod and 3x FA slots for the flexibility to alpha strike if needed. I'm definitely thinking of the Eldar matchup in these respects. Also, if you can keep a detachment free -- Inquisitor with Liber Heresius? It's fairly easy to Scout the Grav Devs (inside a DT Rhino) and then you can confer Split Fire.

That's the price you pay for actually making them worth their weight though.

As far as I know you're podding Dreads and such as well. What this does is that it gives opportunity to have either one kill a transport and then kill the remains.

You can say it is tactically rigid all you want, but flexibility is far worse than specialization in this game by miles.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's the price you pay for actually making them worth their weight though.

I think the question is then about firepower.

1) 2x Grav Cannons, scouted into position (Liber Heresius). Signum + Cherub.

-- Wraithknight : 5(5/6)(8/9) + 5(8/9)(8/9) = 7.65W (5.1W w/FNP only, 3.4W w/5++)
-- Riptide : 5(5/6)(35/36) + 5(8/9)(35/36) = 8.37W (5.58W w/5++, 3.7W after FNP)

2) 2x Grav Cannons, no bonuses.

-- Wraithknight : 3(2/3)(8/9) + 3(2/3)(8/9) = 3.56W (2.37W w/FNP only, 1.58W w/5++)
-- Riptide : 3(2/3)(35/36) + 3(2/3)(35/36) = 3.89W (2.59W w/5++, 1.72W after FNP)

3) 4x Grav Cannons, podded, Signum and Prescience.

-- Wraithknight : 3(35/36)(8/9) + 9(8/9)(8/9) = 9.7W (6.47W w/FNP only, 4.31W w/5++)
-- Riptide : 3(35/36)(35/36) + 9(8/9)(35/36) = 10.61W (7.08W w/5++, 4.71W after FNP)

4) 4x Skyhammer UM Grav Cannons, rerolling w/Signum

-- Wraithknght : 5(35/36)(8/9) + 15(8/9)(8/9) = 16.17W (10.78W w/FNP only, 7.19W w/5++)
-- Riptide : 5(35/36)(35/36) + 15(8/9)(35/36) = 17.69W (11.79W w/5++, 7.86W after FNP)

5) 4x Skyhammer RG Grav Cannons, w/Signum.

-- Wraithknight : 5(5/6)(8/9) + 15(2/3)(8/9) = 12.59W (8.39W w/FNP only, 5.59W after FNP)
-- Riptide : 5(5/6)(35/36) + 15(2/3)(35/36) = 13.77W (9.18W w/5++, 6.12W after FNP)

For reference and discussion.

Yeah the Ultramarine ones are much better for the turn, no doubt about that. I merely suggested Raven Guard because you might be wanting those Assault Marines to feel like less of a tax.

I also might have been overly hopeful in thinking you could deploy an IC in a allied DT (FAQ issues).

Then again, if ITC doesn't use the FAQ, it might be alright in that context.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Ok, so I'm just waiting on my ForgeWorld techmarine and then this list is finished. I'll be trying it out for the first time this upcoming Wednesday, so it won't be until then that we see if this really works.

So, how did it go? In detail please

Xirax wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Ok, so I'm just waiting on my ForgeWorld techmarine and then this list is finished. I'll be trying it out for the first time this upcoming Wednesday, so it won't be until then that we see if this really works.

So, how did it go? In detail please

Work called, so I wasn't able to go. Plus my Techmarine still hasn't come in. Off this Tuesday/Wednesday though so I should be able to get a few good games in. Hoping to fight KDK, crons snd Tau.

Actually getting a game in with BA for the first time since Angels Blade. Playing Space Wolves, and always struggle with them with BA due to TWC, Wulfen, Axe+Shield dreads just plain being able to out assault BA. Any tips for dealing with TWC etc ? (other than make sure you get the charge

Lost Brotherhood Strike Force - 1250

DC Chaplain, Melta Bomb
DC Chaplain, Gilded Crozius, Melta Bomb
DC Dread w/ Drop Pod
10x DC w/ Fist, Power Weapon, Jump Packs
5x DC w/ Fist. Jump Packs
5x DC w/ Fist, Jump Packs
5x ASM w/ Power Weapon,2x Meltaguns
5x ASM w/ Power Weapon,2x Meltaguns

SW are bad news. Maybe you can wear them down with some Baal preds. Or maybe vindicators.

I always think Space Wolves encapsulates everything that's wrong with GWs direction for Blood Angels (and Angels Blade).

Give you bonuses for aggressive play style and assault, only to find you get beaten for trying it vs Space Wolves.

Bartali wrote:
I always think Space Wolves encapsulates everything that's wrong with GWs direction for Blood Angels (and Angels Blade).

Give you bonuses for aggressive play style and assault, only to find you get beaten for trying it vs Space Wolves.

Well, I've massacred Orks, Nercons, Dark Eldar with extreme prejudice. The SW are this weird CC outlier. It's because they field units of MCs with 3++ saves. There's literally no weapon in the game good against TWC. S10 is passable, but is still heavily blunted by the storm shields.

I can't wait to get my LBSF together to collect even more Necron tears.

I think the whole key is selective aggression, but SW are so fast that you can't do this. I dropped in Mephy, LV 2 libby with a storm shield command squad in a good place against Necrons and they literally had no answers. Mephy killed everything he touched.

Also, note that quickened Mephiston with null zone will also kill a ton of TWC. But they usually have a 2+ IC in the squad, so that's a problem.

Well I got a game in yesterday but not against who I wanted. Brought my LBSF+10th Company+LATF, my opponent brought Astra Militarium and tailored his list against me. Went about as follows.

Plasma CCS in chimera
2x melta vets in chimeras
Platoon with flamers and a commisar (for bubble wrap)
3x LRBTs with heavy bolters
Wyvern
Baneblade

So lots of ap3 templates and marine killing weapons with a good bit of anti tank.

I went first after doing a ton of pre game moving. Redeemer torched part of the platoon which opened the way for one 5 man DC squd to charge a LRBT. Baal preds each got side armor shots on chimeras and killed them. Auto las pred took 2 points off a wyvern. Shotgun scouts shot the platoon command squad down to 2 dudes, and precision shot the platoon commander out. Big squad multi charged the CCS chimera and the platoon. Took out the chimera and stayed locked with the platoon, only to break out perfectly on the next turn. Other DC unit charged and wrecked a LRBT

So basically on my 1st turn, he lost a platoon, LRBT, all 3 chimeras and most ofna wyvern. Was pretty much over after that.

Glad to hear you had a good game there, th3maninblak. Sounds like despite his list tailor you were able to bring the heat and pain in equal measure.

As an aside, I cannot for the life of me understand list tailoring. It's just poor form and is, in my opinion, TFG behavior of the highest order.

Looking forward to seeing what else folks come up with using Angel's Blade.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Martel732 wrote:

Bartali wrote:
I always think Space Wolves encapsulates everything that's wrong with GWs direction for Blood Angels (and Angels Blade).

Give you bonuses for aggressive play style and assault, only to find you get beaten for trying it vs Space Wolves.

Well, I've massacred Orks, Nercons, Dark Eldar with extreme prejudice. The SW are this weird CC outlier. It's because they field units of MCs with 3++ saves. There's literally no weapon in the game good against TWC. S10 is passable, but is still heavily blunted by the storm shields.

I can't wait to get my LBSF together to collect even more Necron tears.

I think the whole key is selective aggression, but SW are so fast that you can't do this. I dropped in Mephy, LV 2 libby with a storm shield command squad in a good place against Necrons and they literally had no answers. Mephy killed everything he touched.

Also, note that quickened Mephiston with null zone will also kill a ton of TWC. But they usually have a 2+ IC in the squad, so that's a problem.

GK Nemesis Dreadknights with Gatling Psilencers are quite good fun vs TWC. Try and keep at 24" for as long as possible (with a shunt move if they get to close), and then go and punch them with S10 when their numbers are thinned.

Re LBSF and selective aggression. It's a horribly used phrase in 40K, but I think the LBSF is going to be a 'finesse' army against opponents who also have good assault lists such as Space Wolves. You'll be jockeying to initiate the assault and offering up sacrificial units to try to get your opponent to charge them, to allow you to then counter charge them with a DC Chaplain lead unit next turn.
I can see the DC Dreads being useful for setting up assaults for your DC jump units, and at higher points units would want to take the maximum three. Possibly also combo them with the Orbital Intervention Force at 2K plus.
At lower points I could see Bolter DC in Rhinos/Razors being used to set up an assault for jump DC and a DC Chaplain.

Of course if playing shooty armies the finesse goes out the window and you just want to run over to the other side of the table as fast as possible

I'm using 3 X 5 CC scouts with my LBSF as well as an IK. Scouts get a scout move plus the 6"! For maximum irritation.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm using 3 X 5 CC scouts with my LBSF as well as an IK. Scouts get a scout move plus the 6"! For maximum irritation.

Try shotguns. They're awesome.

And remember that the 6in lost brotherhood move by RAW breaks the +1 cover that the scouts have from the formation.

@Red_Thirst, list tailoring kinda sucks, it's true. But this guy was REALLY salty by the end of the game. I tabled him on the top of turn 4.

I have a bunch of metal CC scouts. If they don't work out, I can acquire more scouts and try shotguns.

I prefer shotguns mostly because it allows still okay charging for the points but you're clearly killing things before hand. Running Carcharodons makes me want to kill and sweep ASAP though instead of getting stuck in combat for a turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll also be playing against some of the new Blood Angel stuff with my proxied Skitarii. I'll let you know how that goes after later tonight and what my thoughts are.

Martel732 wrote:
I have a bunch of metal CC scouts. If they don't work out, I can acquire more scouts and try shotguns.

A 2 to 1 ratio (2 shotguns to 1 close combat) on scout units has been pretty dope.

The game I played was so one sided my roommate (who is also one of the best players at the shop) said "Ok, so you really shouldn't break that list out against new players. Or anyone who isn't me outside of a tournament. We want people to have fun."

They're just scouts. Sheesh.

Martel732 wrote:
They're just scouts. Sheesh.

That just shows how bad Tactical Marines are haha!

Martel732 wrote:
They're just scouts. Sheesh.

Wasn't so much in reference to the scouts as it was to the whole list. Being able to move that much before the game even starts is kind of obscene.

Bartali wrote:
I always think Space Wolves encapsulates everything that's wrong with GWs direction for Blood Angels (and Angels Blade).

Give you bonuses for aggressive play style and assault, only to find you get beaten for trying it vs Space Wolves.

So, yeah got tabled by turn 4.

My list again :-

DC Chap w/ Gilded Crozius, Meltabomb
DC Chap w/ Meltabomb
DC Dread w/ Pod
10x DC w/ Fist, Sword, Infernus Pistol, Jump Packs
5x DC w/ Fist, Jump Packs
5x DC w/ Fist, Jump Packs
5x ASM w/ Sword, Meltagunx2, Jump Packs
5x ASM w/ Sword, Meltagunx2, Jump Packs

His list :-

Wolf guard Batte Leader w/ Runic Armour, Storm Shield, Krakenblade Sword, Thunderwolf mount
4x TWC w/ 2x Storm Shield, Fist
3x TWC w/ 2x Storm Shield, Fist
5 Terminators w/, 5x Combi-melta, 3x Storm Shield,2x Axe, drop pod
5 x wulfen leader,th/ss,axe,grenade.
Ven Dread w/ Axe+Shield, Drop Pod
Ven Dread w/ Axe+Shield, Drop Pod

Cautions opening as we both jockeyed for position to initiate a charge, Dreads dropped by both of us into the middle of the table to try to bait the other player. I eventually did manage to get the charge with all three of my jump DC units, and the 10 DC unit with re-rolls is absolutely brutal. I only ended up rolling half of my regular attacks before they vaporised a TWC unit. I5 really helps vs Space Wolves

However, once I'd committed, it was pretty much game over for me. DC units got charged back and died - they're just glorified ASM without the charge. Chaplains aren't great combat characters. Axe+Shield Dreads are difficult to deal with DC. Wulfen are brutal. No doubt some user error with me on first try with LBSF, but I get the impression SW are pretty much a hard counter for LBSF.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah the Ultramarine ones are much better for the turn, no doubt about that. I merely suggested Raven Guard because you might be wanting those Assault Marines to feel like less of a tax.

The Skyhammer already lets the Assault Marines reroll their charges by using the jump packs in both the movement and assault phases?

Literally 0 reason to be Raven Guard in a Skyhammer. White Scars for hit and run or Star Phantoms to twin link the assault marines flamers, over Ultramarines I can see, sure. But any other chapter? Meh.

I figured that might be a problem with a pure jumper list. Not sure what point level this was but my lbsf has scouts, mm attack bikes, and an ik.

 Crazyterran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah the Ultramarine ones are much better for the turn, no doubt about that. I merely suggested Raven Guard because you might be wanting those Assault Marines to feel like less of a tax.

The Skyhammer already lets the Assault Marines reroll their charges by using the jump packs in both the movement and assault phases?

Literally 0 reason to be Raven Guard in a Skyhammer. White Scars for hit and run or Star Phantoms to twin link the assault marines flamers, over Ultramarines I can see, sure. But any other chapter? Meh.

Forgot about that. Still get the cover save bonus at least and the HoW bonus.

Bartali wrote:

Bartali wrote:
I always think Space Wolves encapsulates everything that's wrong with GWs direction for Blood Angels (and Angels Blade).

Give you bonuses for aggressive play style and assault, only to find you get beaten for trying it vs Space Wolves.

So, yeah got tabled by turn 4.

My list again :-

DC Chap w/ Gilded Crozius, Meltabomb
DC Chap w/ Meltabomb
DC Dread w/ Pod
10x DC w/ Fist, Sword, Infernus Pistol, Jump Packs
5x DC w/ Fist, Jump Packs
5x DC w/ Fist, Jump Packs
5x ASM w/ Sword, Meltagunx2, Jump Packs
5x ASM w/ Sword, Meltagunx2, Jump Packs

His list :-

Wolf guard Batte Leader w/ Runic Armour, Storm Shield, Krakenblade Sword, Thunderwolf mount
4x TWC w/ 2x Storm Shield, Fist
3x TWC w/ 2x Storm Shield, Fist
5 Terminators w/, 5x Combi-melta, 3x Storm Shield,2x Axe, drop pod
5 x wulfen leader,th/ss,axe,grenade.
Ven Dread w/ Axe+Shield, Drop Pod
Ven Dread w/ Axe+Shield, Drop Pod

Cautions opening as we both jockeyed for position to initiate a charge, Dreads dropped by both of us into the middle of the table to try to bait the other player. I eventually did manage to get the charge with all three of my jump DC units, and the 10 DC unit with re-rolls is absolutely brutal. I only ended up rolling half of my regular attacks before they vaporised a TWC unit. I5 really helps vs Space Wolves

However, once I'd committed, it was pretty much game over for me. DC units got charged back and died - they're just glorified ASM without the charge. Chaplains aren't great combat characters. Axe+Shield Dreads are difficult to deal with DC. Wulfen are brutal. No doubt some user error with me on first try with LBSF, but I get the impression SW are pretty much a hard counter for LBSF.

Yeah I think one of our major issues is that points are really tight below 1750. Chapter Ancients or Stormraven Squadron would have been great in that matchup, but you can't fit those in along with everything you need for the LBSF in smaller games.

I think the trick vs wolves is to set up counter charges. If you ace a TWC unit with your 10 man squad, you need to be able to charge in on your next turn with more stuff when your big unit is inevitably assaulted.

I think the trick vs wolves is to set up counter charges

Absolutely, and it was something I was trying to achieve. Dread and ASM got sacrificed to set up counter charges for the DC jumpers. My counter charges got counter charged, and then game over. As I said earlier it may be user error on my behalf, but I think SW are a counter for BA.

I'll give the LBSF a few more goes, but I have a feeling you're better off running DC under a CAD or Baal Strike Force (or DC Strike Force + CAD/BSF). DC run better as MSU and the LBSF pushes you towards bigger units and ,multiple Chaplains which aren't really needed

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah the Ultramarine ones are much better for the turn, no doubt about that. I merely suggested Raven Guard because you might be wanting those Assault Marines to feel like less of a tax.

The Skyhammer already lets the Assault Marines reroll their charges by using the jump packs in both the movement and assault phases?

Literally 0 reason to be Raven Guard in a Skyhammer. White Scars for hit and run or Star Phantoms to twin link the assault marines flamers, over Ultramarines I can see, sure. But any other chapter? Meh.

Forgot about that. Still get the cover save bonus at least and the HoW bonus.

Shrouded won't apply to the Skyhammer, and would younreally want night fighting when you are playing an army that wants to shoot? And if you are deep striking close enough to charge, it won't really apply.

I suppose you do get to reroll the to wound rolls of the hammer of wrath attacks, but I don't know if it is worth it over the other options.

I mean, even if you max out the Assualt Marines over the Devastators for some reason, Ultramarines have Assault Doctrine (since most people will just go to ground rather than risk the reroll for the AMs) Templar have Crusader, and rage if the enemy didn't go to ground some how, White Scars have Hit and Run... hell, Salamanders get to reroll tomwound with the flamers and can make the power weapon for the sergeant master crafted.

I'm gonna run my dc at minimum squads in lbsf. I'm really all about the movement as opposed to crazy charges.