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I had a couple quick questions about the Stormsurge.

1. The rules for Gargantuan Creature says it may fire it's weapons at different units. Does this mean it can fire all weapons, or just one per shooting phase?

2. The rules for Stabilizing Anchors says it may fire twice. Does this mean it may fire all weapons or make one additional shooting attack?

When a Gargantuan Creature or Flying Gargantuan Creature makes a shooting attack, it
may fire each of its weapons at a different target if desired.

7th edition from rule book. And second answer is it shoots all weapons then you shoot all weapons a second time.

 nitromorphine wrote:
When a Gargantuan Creature or Flying Gargantuan Creature makes a shooting attack, it
may fire each of its weapons at a different target if desired.

7th edition from rule book. And second answer is it shoots all weapons then you shoot all weapons a second time.

I thought that's how it was. And that's disgustingly awesome. I'm slowly figuring out why people hate Tau. We have 0 Tau in my local meta, so I have to read through the codex and watch battreps to try and figure out how I want to configure this army I was given. I'm trying to decide if I want to buy a Stormsurge, and the more I figure out about it the more I really, really want one.

First, from 'Gargantuan Creatures' (pg. 70, main rulebook):

Gargantuan Creatures are Monstrous Creatures (pg 67) that have the additional rules and exceptions given below.

Monstrous Creatures can fire two weapons, not one. So would Gargantuan Creatures without a specific exception in their rules, as clarified by the Draft FAQ:

Q: Can Gargantuan Creatures shoot all of their weapons at different targets, or can they only shoot two different weapons at two different targets?

A: They can shoot all of their weapons, at different targets if desired.

No need to clarify with faqs, it literally tells you under the gargantuan section it can fire all weapons at any targets. Not sure what's hard about that.

 nitromorphine wrote:
No need to clarify with faqs, it literally tells you under the gargantuan section it can fire all weapons at any targets. Not sure what's hard about that.

The FAQ clarifies that what the rulebook says allows it to fire all of its weapons, instead of simply allowing what weapons it could fire (which would have been two) at separate targets. We had more than enough discussions on the forum with no resolution that a FAQ was needed.

The book is very clear that a Gargantuan Creature may fire all of its weapons. The monstrous creature shooting part isn't the same for gargantuan. 90% of everyone playing understands this but if it takes faqs to help then so be it.

 nitromorphine wrote:
The book is very clear that a Gargantuan Creature may fire all of its weapons. The monstrous creature shooting part isn't the same for gargantuan. 90% of everyone playing understands this but if it takes faqs to help then so be it.

And I can point you to numerous posts right here in this forum why it was not clear.

 nitromorphine wrote:
The book is very clear that a Gargantuan Creature may fire all of its weapons. The monstrous creature shooting part isn't the same for gargantuan. 90% of everyone playing understands this but if it takes faqs to help then so be it.

Ghaz isn't wrong. Looks like you're new here, but 6 months ago there were reoccurring, multi-page MEGA threads arguing back and forth about this topic. I personally agree with you, though there were some that were adamant about the strict MC firing rule interpretation. I'm glad they addressed it in a FAQ.

 nitromorphine wrote:
The book is very clear that a Gargantuan Creature may fire all of its weapons. The monstrous creature shooting part isn't the same for gargantuan. 90% of everyone playing understands this but if it takes faqs to help then so be it.

The reason the FAQ was need is because the BRB does NOT, in fact, state "all" its weapons, but rather "each" of its weapon. As GMCs follow the rules for MCs with exceptions, we are expected to assume all the rules for MCs apply, unless otherwise stated. SInce MCs may fire only 2 weapons, does this mean GMCs can fire each of those 2 weapons at separate targets? Or does "each" actually mean "all" in this case, thereby overriding the 2 weapon restriction?
Therefore, FAQ was needed and was thankfully given.

 nitromorphine wrote:
The book is very clear that a Gargantuan Creature may fire all of its weapons. The monstrous creature shooting part isn't the same for gargantuan. 90% of everyone playing understands this but if it takes faqs to help then so be it.

The book was not clear in the slightest that a Gargantuan Creature may fire off all it's weapons. To the contrary, it was clear that by not specifically stating that it can fire all weapons, it did not override the provision for Monstrous Creatures about firing two weapons (which GC's default to unless there were other specifics)

The FAQ was definitely needed to make this change. RAW they could only fire two, but it looked like RAI they were (certainly you'd think they'd be able to keep up with superheavy vehicles for firing weapons)

It looks like your main questions have been answered, but I feel it should be noted that the Draft FAQs clarify that you will need to declare all targets for the unit before you begin resolving the attacks. This means that some of those attack may end up being wasted if you wipe out a target unit before you get to a different weapon that was targeting it.

 EnTyme wrote:
It looks like your main questions have been answered, but I feel it should be noted that the Draft FAQs clarify that you will need to declare all targets for the unit before you begin resolving the attacks. This means that some of those attack may end up being wasted if you wipe out a target unit before you get to a different weapon that was targeting it.

I was a bit confused at what you meant at first, so to clarify:
You must declare all targets before shooting the Storm Surge. If guns A & B are declared to fire at unit 1, but gun A destroys unit 1, then gun B cannot declare another target. Its shots considered to still have fired at unit 1 and are effectively lost.

 Galef wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
It looks like your main questions have been answered, but I feel it should be noted that the Draft FAQs clarify that you will need to declare all targets for the unit before you begin resolving the attacks. This means that some of those attack may end up being wasted if you wipe out a target unit before you get to a different weapon that was targeting it.

I was a bit confused at what you meant at first, so to clarify:
You must declare all targets before shooting the Storm Surge. If guns A & B are declared to fire at unit 1, but gun A destroys unit 1, then gun B cannot declare another target. Its shots considered to still have fired at unit 1 and are effectively lost.

Yep. That's what I meant. I swear these thoughts make sense in my brain. Sorry for any confusion.

There is still no official FAQ that says GMC can fire more than 2 weapons. If it has been released can someone post it please, because I don't see it on the GW site.

Are people still talking about the first drafts?

Davor wrote:
There is still no official FAQ that says GMC can fire more than 2 weapons. If it has been released can someone post it please, because I don't see it on the GW site.

Are people still talking about the first drafts?

Considering I see several posts saying "draft FAQ" and didn't catch any that say "official FAQ," I'm going with yes, that's exactly what people are talking about.

What does being new to a forums have anything to do with understanding what the rules state. They are very clear and it takes some reading comprehension to know the shooting paragraph under the gargantuan overrides the monstrous paragraph. You are making the same argument that you must ignore the stomps a Gargantuan can do solely based on the monstrous profile cannot do them. It's pretty easy to understand most of this and most people on this site really hasn't taken anything to the next level. Every local tournament (including my first major ITC) I've been to its already played as the gargantuan may fire all of its weapons (and is not limited to just 2 like a monstrous creature is). Good luck understanding this since it's already played as such.

 nitromorphine wrote:
most people on this site really hasn't taken anything to the next level

I'm not sure this distinction adds anything other than a certain air of condescension.

 EnTyme wrote:
It looks like your main questions have been answered, but I feel it should be noted that the Draft FAQs clarify that you will need to declare all targets for the unit before you begin resolving the attacks. This means that some of those attack may end up being wasted if you wipe out a target unit before you get to a different weapon that was targeting it.

This is the only thing worth noting outside of the BRB, most players will announce all targets per weapon prior to firing for both gargantuan and super heavies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jacksmiles wrote:

 nitromorphine wrote:
most people on this site really hasn't taken anything to the next level

I'm not sure this distinction adds anything other than a certain air of condescension.

It happens when you join this site after barely reading the rule book and after some time playing against some of the best players in the country that play some of the hardest lists ever built (that you won't ever see here), your push towards things here get lost in translation and some skewed things are produced. I'm only pointing out what the rules are without even using faqs. Gargantuan creatures may fire all weapons (there was never a limit to 2 because this entire paragraph overrides the monstrous one).

 nitromorphine wrote:
What does being new to a forums have anything to do with understanding what the rules state. They are very clear and it takes some reading comprehension to know the shooting paragraph under the gargantuan overrides the monstrous paragraph. You are making the same argument that you must ignore the stomps a Gargantuan can do solely based on the monstrous profile cannot do them. It's pretty easy to understand most of this and most people on this site really hasn't taken anything to the next level. Every local tournament (including my first major ITC) I've been to its already played as the gargantuan may fire all of its weapons (and is not limited to just 2 like a monstrous creature is). Good luck understanding this since it's already played as such.

So every local tournament and your first major ITC were using house rules for this. "It may fire each of its weapons" is not a specific overriding of what Monstrous Creature says about firing 2 weapons, it reads that each of those two weapons can be fired at a different target. "It is very clear and it takes some reading comprehension" offers nothing but condescension, since it should be just as obvious that it can be read the way I mentioned. As it can be read that way, it is certainly not "clear" that it works the other way, and you do not get to assume that it works that way. It's understandable that tounaments would make house rules letting you fire all weapons, since as I mentioned it looks to be RAI, but it is not "clear" RAW as you want to state. The number of protracted arguments on this board and others in the past (it was also a recurring question on Warseer) that would inevitably come down to the conclusion that a FAQ for it was desperately needed clearly points out that stating the rules are "very clear" is not true at all.

 nitromorphine wrote:
What does being new to a forums have anything to do with understanding what the rules state. They are very clear and it takes some reading comprehension to know the shooting paragraph under the gargantuan overrides the monstrous paragraph. You are making the same argument that you must ignore the stomps a Gargantuan can do solely based on the monstrous profile cannot do them. It's pretty easy to understand most of this and most people on this site really hasn't taken anything to the next level. Every local tournament (including my first major ITC) I've been to its already played as the gargantuan may fire all of its weapons (and is not limited to just 2 like a monstrous creature is). Good luck understanding this since it's already played as such.

You are arguing something that has been argued many times before by many, many people. Being new to a forum doesn't make you less capable of answering questions, but it does make you more likely to commit what is essentially thread necromancy and, moreover, waste everyone's time.

Ghaz answered the question fully and with quoted references to the relevant BRB and FAQ. You simply stated your opinion with no references or amplifying information.

If you are actually interested in helping players understand the rules more clearly, I suggest you take Ghaz's example of how best to answer questions in YMDC.

DoW

I literally quoted the BRB in the section it comes from. You can in fact fire all weapons without a limit for gargantuan. Not my opinion, straight from the book. Already been answered by me. GG

 nitromorphine wrote:
I literally quoted the BRB in the section it comes from. You can in fact fire all weapons without a limit for gargantuan. Not my opinion, straight from the book. Already been answered by me. GG

Except you misquoted the rulebook. It never uses the word 'all'.

Check it out peeps this is how it reads and how it's handled and why gargantuan creatures can fire all of it's weapons:

"When a Gargantuan Creature or Flying makes a shooting attack, it may fire EACH of its weapons at a different target if desired."

Now lets look at the Monstrous Creatures text:

"Monstrous creatures can fire UP TO TWO of their weapons each shooting phase - they must, of course, fire both at the same target."

So as you can see gargantuans may fire all their weapons, regardless of number and at any target, while the monstrous can only fire up to TWO at the same target. So OP, as I was saying, your Stormsurge can fire all of its weapons at different targets, and if the anchors are down, you can double fire everything. Good day everyone.

I will say that I argued the strict RaW interpretation of the rule, and people claimed that it made NO sense. If you go by the book, the GMC unit has what is effectively 2 firing modes. One of them, the MC model, says that you choose two weapons on the model to fire at another unit. The other 'firing mode', the GMC one, was that each weapon could instead fire at a different unit; effectively, if there were fewer legal targets than you had guns, you were not allowed to use the firing mode.

The FAQ was that you could fire each of the weapons at a different target 'if desired'. Rather than the first, you could alpha fire all the weapons at a single unit if you wanted to, or fire one weapon at one unit, 2 at 2 others, and the rest at a forth, or any other combination that you desired.

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?68781-GW-Releases-Warhammer-40K-FAQ-Draft-May-2016

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=18347&d=1462384210

 carldooley wrote:
I will say that I argued the strict RaW interpretation of the rule, and people claimed that it made NO sense. If you go by the book, the GMC unit has what is effectively 2 firing modes. One of them, the MC model, says that you choose two weapons on the model to fire at another unit. The other 'firing mode', the GMC one, was that each weapon could instead fire at a different unit; effectively, if there were fewer legal targets than you had guns, you were not allowed to use the firing mode.

The FAQ was that you could fire each of the weapons at a different target 'if desired'. Rather than the first, you could alpha fire all the weapons at a single unit if you wanted to, or fire one weapon at one unit, 2 at 2 others, and the rest at a forth, or any other combination that you desired.

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?68781-GW-Releases-Warhammer-40K-FAQ-Draft-May-2016

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=18347&d=1462384210

There are no firing modes, the book has taken out the FIRE UP TO TWO and replaced it with EACH. And on top of that has stated it can fire each weapon at any target. If gargantuan creatures could only fire UP TO TWO then it would say that in it's text and not EACH of its weapons.

 nitromorphine wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
I will say that I argued the strict RaW interpretation of the rule, and people claimed that it made NO sense. If you go by the book, the GMC unit has what is effectively 2 firing modes. One of them, the MC model, says that you choose two weapons on the model to fire at another unit. The other 'firing mode', the GMC one, was that each weapon could instead fire at a different unit; effectively, if there were fewer legal targets than you had guns, you were not allowed to use the firing mode.

The FAQ was that you could fire each of the weapons at a different target 'if desired'. Rather than the first, you could alpha fire all the weapons at a single unit if you wanted to, or fire one weapon at one unit, 2 at 2 others, and the rest at a forth, or any other combination that you desired.

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?68781-GW-Releases-Warhammer-40K-FAQ-Draft-May-2016

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=18347&d=1462384210

There are no firing modes, the book has taken out the FIRE UP TO TWO and replaced it with EACH. And on top of that has stated it can fire each weapon at any target. If gargantuan creatures could only fire UP TO TWO then it would say that in it's text and not EACH of its weapons.

Not necessarily. This is GW. That's why they had to address it in the FAQ.

And sorry I laughed a lot when the FAQs came out, they were just restates of most things from the BRB and I thought it was funny people would ask a question on something simple and get the same answer and that was part of the FAQs.

 nitromorphine wrote:
And sorry I laughed a lot when the FAQs came out, they were just restates of most things from the BRB and I thought it was funny people would ask a question on something simple and get the same answer and that was part of the FAQs.

You may have thought that. But others didn't. And that matters.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/646574.page

This is the most recent discussion that covered how many weapons a Gargantuan Creature could fire. So far you've not added anything new to the debate.