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 Ghaz wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/646574.page

This is the most recent discussion that covered how many weapons a Gargantuan Creature could fire. So far you've not added anything new to the debate.

I don't see a reason to go into a not needed thread, I've already answered correctly the OPs question and have supported myself easily whereas any of you guys have not and have only stated that FAQs and other threads are the answer. Sorry they aren't and I have discussed more complicated rulings for matters outside of this site. I'm just letting the OP know what he can do with his Stormsurge.

Cheers

". Sorry they aren't and I have discussed more complicated rulings for matters outside of this site. "

That's not for you to decide. That's the problem.

 nitromorphine wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/646574.page

This is the most recent discussion that covered how many weapons a Gargantuan Creature could fire. So far you've not added anything new to the debate.

I don't see a reason to go into a not needed thread, I've already answered correctly the OPs question and have supported myself easily whereas any of you guys have not and have only stated that FAQs and other threads are the answer. Sorry they aren't and I have discussed more complicated rulings for matters outside of this site. I'm just letting the OP know what he can do with his Stormsurge.

Cheers

So you ignore a thread that disproves your claims that the rules are clear and didn't need a FAQ. Yeah, I think we're done here.

 nitromorphine wrote:
There are no firing modes, the book has taken out the FIRE UP TO TWO and replaced it with EACH. And on top of that has stated it can fire each weapon at any target. If gargantuan creatures could only fire UP TO TWO then it would say that in it's text and not EACH of its weapons.

Not anymore, and with the FAQ, there is no need to argue the point.

With that said, allow me to explain the why of my argument.
I have a 2014 English printing of the Rules book for the 7th edition.
On P. 70, second paragraph under Gargantuan & Flying Gargantuan Creatures, 'Gargantuan Creatures are Monstrous Creatures (pg 67) that have the additional rules and exceptions listed below.'

P.67 under Monstrous Creatures, 'Monstrous Creatures can fire up to two of their weapons each Shooting phase - they must, of course, fire both at the same target.'

P.70 under Shooting, 'When a Gargantuan Creature or Flying Gargantuan Creature makes a shooting attack, it may fire each of its weapons at a different target if desired.'

sorry, nitromorphine, but it sure as heck looked as though there was a choice to be made as to how to use a gargantuan creature in the shooting phase, what I termed to be firing modes.

He's too busy E-sneering at us to actually read your posts.

 Ghaz wrote:

 nitromorphine wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/646574.page

This is the most recent discussion that covered how many weapons a Gargantuan Creature could fire. So far you've not added anything new to the debate.

I don't see a reason to go into a not needed thread, I've already answered correctly the OPs question and have supported myself easily whereas any of you guys have not and have only stated that FAQs and other threads are the answer. Sorry they aren't and I have discussed more complicated rulings for matters outside of this site. I'm just letting the OP know what he can do with his Stormsurge.

Cheers

So you ignore a thread that disproves your claims that the rules are clear and didn't need a FAQ. Yeah, I think we're done here.

Yeah I think we are done here, I've already seen many points to that thread supporting what I've said already. Also if it's Errata, then its concrete decisions / changes, the FAQ isn't anything yet, keep that in mind.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 carldooley wrote:

 nitromorphine wrote:
There are no firing modes, the book has taken out the FIRE UP TO TWO and replaced it with EACH. And on top of that has stated it can fire each weapon at any target. If gargantuan creatures could only fire UP TO TWO then it would say that in it's text and not EACH of its weapons.

Not anymore, and with the FAQ, there is no need to argue the point.

With that said, allow me to explain the why of my argument.
I have a 2014 English printing of the Rules book for the 7th edition.
On P. 70, second paragraph under Gargantuan & Flying Gargantuan Creatures, 'Gargantuan Creatures are Monstrous Creatures (pg 67) that have the additional rules and exceptions listed below.'

P.67 under Monstrous Creatures, 'Monstrous Creatures can fire up to two of their weapons each Shooting phase - they must, of course, fire both at the same target.'

P.70 under Shooting, 'When a Gargantuan Creature or Flying Gargantuan Creature makes a shooting attack, it may fire each of its weapons at a different target if desired.'

sorry, nitromorphine, but it sure as heck looked as though there was a choice to be made as to how to use a gargantuan creature in the shooting phase, what I termed to be firing modes.

And the FAQ actually says what I just said, so have you read the FAQs at all?

 nitromorphine wrote:
Gargantuan creatures may fire all weapons (there was never a limit to 2 because this entire paragraph overrides the monstrous one).

The Shooting rules for Gargantuan Creatures does not replace the Shooting rules for Monstrous Creatures. The rules for GCs are "additional" and "exceptions", not replacements. GCs cannot Go To Ground because MCs can't Go To Ground as per the MC Shooting rules.

Martel732 wrote:
He's too busy E-sneering at us to actually read your posts.

I'm getting that feeling. Cheers!

 nitromorphine wrote:
And the FAQ actually says what I just said, so have you read the FAQs at all?

indeed I have. I was justifying my argument from before the FAQ was released. Hence, why I said that the point didn't need to be argued.

Cal Hoskins wrote:

 nitromorphine wrote:
Gargantuan creatures may fire all weapons (there was never a limit to 2 because this entire paragraph overrides the monstrous one).

The Shooting rules for Gargantuan Creatures does not replace the Shooting rules for Monstrous Creatures. The rules for GCs are "additional" and "exceptions", not replacements. GCs cannot Go To Ground because MCs can't Go To Ground as per the MC Shooting rules.

Ok even with that, the exception that the GC makes is it can fire each of its weapons and not limited to two.

 nitromorphine wrote:

Cal Hoskins wrote:

 nitromorphine wrote:
Gargantuan creatures may fire all weapons (there was never a limit to 2 because this entire paragraph overrides the monstrous one).

The Shooting rules for Gargantuan Creatures does not replace the Shooting rules for Monstrous Creatures. The rules for GCs are "additional" and "exceptions", not replacements. GCs cannot Go To Ground because MCs can't Go To Ground as per the MC Shooting rules.

Ok even with that, the exception that the GC makes is it can fire each of its weapons and not limited to two.

Remember, this doesn't need to be argued, as the FAQ overrode what was in the Rules book. But try to argue the same thing next time you fire a Missile Launcher. Why choose a profile, I can use BOTH! /sarcasm

Obviously it does since some people don't understand where it's coming from. It's like people arguing the FAQ about grav on 6's do 3 hull points to superheavies. There's a reason behind it and people need to understand that. It makes it easier to understand the BRB. In some cases, yes it's just too hard to make a decision, but guess what, remember the golden rule from the beginning of your book and no problems

"There was never any debate!"

Someone posts an enormous debate.

"There was never any debate!"

 Dark_Apostle_Spartachris wrote:
I had a couple quick questions about the Stormsurge.

1. The rules for Gargantuan Creature says it may fire it's weapons at different units. Does this mean it can fire all weapons, or just one per shooting phase?

2. The rules for Stabilizing Anchors says it may fire twice. Does this mean it may fire all weapons or make one additional shooting attack?

Sorry for this entire rant debate etc, but yes

1.) you can fire all your weapons in the shooting phase at different targets.

2.) you can fire all your weapons 2 times after anchors are down.

I nearly started this debate before Ghaz did.

The exception was that I had also added a line that explains why the debate ever started: Each can have 2 meanings that both fit the rules and basically depends on the reader; Each as in each weapon it has, and Each as in each weapon it could normally fire. The thing is that with this being a permissive ruleset it can only mean the latter. The FAQ puts this to rest as the first.

It is an old debate, rehashed again when the stormsurge rules first came out.

This is similar to the psyker mastery level issue, where people who don't understand the English language couldn't figure out what people were saying when they said "depends on" doesn't mean "is equal to" and couldn't believe there was even a question. Being right in the end doesn't mean it's worded in a way that has 0 other meanings.

 nitromorphine wrote:

 carldooley wrote:

Not anymore, and with the FAQ, there is no need to argue the point.

With that said, allow me to explain the why of my argument.
I have a 2014 English printing of the Rules book for the 7th edition.
On P. 70, second paragraph under Gargantuan & Flying Gargantuan Creatures, 'Gargantuan Creatures are Monstrous Creatures (pg 67) that have the additional rules and exceptions listed below.'

P.67 under Monstrous Creatures, 'Monstrous Creatures can fire up to two of their weapons each Shooting phase - they must, of course, fire both at the same target.'

P.70 under Shooting, 'When a Gargantuan Creature or Flying Gargantuan Creature makes a shooting attack, it may fire each of its weapons at a different target if desired.'

sorry, nitromorphine, but it sure as heck looked as though there was a choice to be made as to how to use a gargantuan creature in the shooting phase, what I termed to be firing modes.

And the FAQ actually says what I just said, so have you read the FAQs at all?

The reason an FAQ was need is because it was not clear whether the "fire each of its weapons at a different target if desired" is an EXCEPTION to the "fires 2' or "both at the same target"
It easily (using readind comprehension) could have been an exception to the "same target" portion of the MC rules rather than an exception to the "fires 2" portion.

Before the FAQ, I agreed with you that the RAI was clear and argued thusly, but without using the word "all" instead of "each", the other interpretation was completely valid and thus caused a need for an FAQ.
What we are asking of you here is to stop being so "I was always right and there is no other way to read the rule!" because there indeed is another valid way to read the rule.
It just so happened that your interpretation (that I shared pre FAQ, btw) happened to be correct

Jacksmiles wrote:
This is similar to the psyker mastery level issue, where people who don't understand the English language couldn't figure out what people were saying when they said "depends on" doesn't mean "is equal to" and couldn't believe there was even a question. Being right in the end doesn't mean it's worded in a way that has 0 other meanings.

I am guilty of this. I admit to a bit of a "told you so" feeling once the FAQ came out as I did not see the "depends on" vs "equals to" difference until someone pointed it out.
I always read it as "equals to' in the same way that Nitromorphine is claiming that "each" means "all". GW might mean them as the same, but they can mean the other, because English is a confusingly complicated language
Honestly, I admire those people who learn English as a second language as it can be an uphill battle even for those of us native English speakers.

-

So the reason they used "may fire each of their weapons" vs "may fire all of their weapons" actually forces the gargantuan to do just that. Each vs all allows the controller to select which weapons to fire (and yes this means no limit of 2) to fire those selected weapons at different targets from the first. If "all" is used then the controller must fire all weapons at different targets. I find the way it's worded now is just fine and allows the gargantuan creature to really be superior to a monstrous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry added to what I was saying, with the word all in there, now you are set to either fire all or fire none.

Except it doesnt mean *only* that

it can also mean that it can fire each weapon (that it is able to fire) at a different target. iE it overrides the limit ationt hat all weapons may fire at a single target

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except it doesnt mean *only* that

it can also mean that it can fire each weapon (that it is able to fire) at a different target. iE it overrides the limit ationt hat all weapons may fire at a single target

Yeah that's what I've said and pointed out. The faqs just confirms what I've said and my explanation is to why it works that way. It's like can you reconsolidate after killing a walker? No and I can prove why on that one too.

Jacksmiles wrote:

Davor wrote:
There is still no official FAQ that says GMC can fire more than 2 weapons. If it has been released can someone post it please, because I don't see it on the GW site.

Are people still talking about the first drafts?

Considering I see several posts saying "draft FAQ" and didn't catch any that say "official FAQ," I'm going with yes, that's exactly what people are talking about.

People are just saying FAQ. Not many people are saying Draft FAQ. I guess reading multiple threads in different forums, it takes only one FAQ post to confuse people and not know what is official and what is not. I know I don't know all the rules for every army and then someone saying it's in the FAQ, I check the FAQ and I don't see it. No need to be like GW and write sloppily. Otherwise we are just as bad as GW when debating poorly written rules with poorly written debates.

It's probably safe to start assuming people are talking about the draft FAQ *most* of the time now. It's just so much larger than the current thing GW has on their site, so can be referenced in a lot more situations. I can kind of understand the confusion, though, I'd just say check the draft if someone says something you don't see in the current pdf download for reference!

And even if you are one of those waiting for the draft to be the official download from their site before using it in your group, I'm sure you can understand why people are using it to answer questions already. It may not be the download, but it still has answers to a lot of things that we didn't have answers about from GW just a few short months ago!

Welp, here we go again.

 nitromorphine wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except it doesnt mean *only* that

it can also mean that it can fire each weapon (that it is able to fire) at a different target. iE it overrides the limit ationt hat all weapons may fire at a single target

Yeah that's what I've said and pointed out. The faqs just confirms what I've said and my explanation is to why it works that way. It's like can you reconsolidate after killing a walker? No and I can prove why on that one too.

No, that is not what you said. You've said that "firing each of your" weapons means that same as "firing all of your weapons", which can be true except in this case, it does not inherently lift the restriction already in place that MCs can only fire 2 weapons. It does undisputedly lifts the restriction that they must "fire at the same target"

Again the GMC rules are "additions" and "exceptions" to the MC rules, which can A) fire 2 weapons and B) at the same target. GMC may "fire each weapon at different targets" which is an exception to part B, but not necessarily part A, while this:"fire each weapon, and at different targets" would be a clear exception to parts A & B.
This is why there was a debate and why even though I felt that it did indeed mean that you could fire "all" weapons, I never equipped my WK with shoulder guns just in case.

-

 nitromorphine wrote:

Cal Hoskins wrote:

 nitromorphine wrote:
Gargantuan creatures may fire all weapons (there was never a limit to 2 because this entire paragraph overrides the monstrous one).

The Shooting rules for Gargantuan Creatures does not replace the Shooting rules for Monstrous Creatures. The rules for GCs are "additional" and "exceptions", not replacements. GCs cannot Go To Ground because MCs can't Go To Ground as per the MC Shooting rules.

Ok even with that, the exception that the GC makes is it can fire each of its weapons and not limited to two.

Not until the FAQ. "Each" is not "all", and "may fire each of its weapons at a different target" may easily have referred to each of those TWO weapons. The fact that there had been those long arguments with different people should be an indication that it was not at all as cut and dried as you. You said you saw many points supporting you, but ignored the fact that there were also many points supporting the other intrerpretation that made a FAQ needed for the issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
"There was never any debate!"

Someone posts an enormous debate.

"There was never any debate!"

I had to exalt this.

I think I'll just ask my FLGS what they're cool with next time.

 Dark_Apostle_Spartachris wrote:
I think I'll just ask my FLGS what they're cool with next time.

That should always be the case. This board can help you find references for your argument, but the only opinions that truly matter are yours and that of those you play with (and the TO for any organized events you participate in).

 nitromorphine wrote:
Already been answered by me. GG

I think you may have gotten lost on your way to 4chan... or maybe you thought you were in a game of League of Legends?

Either way, you're not bringing anything useful to YMDC (at least not that I've seen in your 70 posts so far) by re-hashing months -if not years- old arguments, so it's an easy Ignore for me.

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:

 nitromorphine wrote:
Already been answered by me. GG

I think you may have gotten lost on your way to 4chan... or maybe you thought you were in a game of League of Legends?

Either way, you're not bringing anything useful to YMDC (at least not that I've seen in your 70 posts so far) by re-hashing months -if not years- old arguments, so it's an easy Ignore for me.

DoW

Sorry but checking out a few of your older posts and nothing was helpful at all, yeah my 70 posts, esp at the beginning, was to get to know how to play orks, since I was a new player. Now almost a year later and I understand the game well enough to play in major tournaments no problem. I'm just helping out the community but it looks like you guys (who are the same old postees with incorrect info) don't want to understand it from a new players perspective. Most players who have been playing this game for years have bad habits or just understand it from a different edition I've found out. Seems like most of you guys are the same way. Just understand what I've posted that "may fire each of its weapons" is NOT the same as "may fire all its weapons" and should be treated as such. Yeah my first post of just saying all was incorrect but after that I adjusted it accordingly. Out of 1000+ posts and not one is actually useful. Talking a lot doesn't make you right, just makes people see what you don't know DoW.

Please stop flaming. That is what PMs are for.

A couple things to keep in mind; new players can start on forums, or they could.start by picking up a book. Would anyone care to guess how long I was playing before I discovered that there were FAQs for the game?

Telling a player that there is a FAQ or errata but not providing the link to it is the height of irresponsibility. Which does the new player use? The one on Facebook? The ITC FAQ? Something that is grossly out of date but archived for people that play by the old rules?

In my first post on this thread, I included 2 links. One was to the BOLS page that had a compilation of the Draft FAQ documents, and a second link that would have brought the OP directly to the portion that would have answered his question. The reason why I listed my argument was that believe it or not, some people choose not to use FAQs or erratas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Please remember that the same questions do show up on threads occasionally. Sometimes it is someone who is just starting out. Sometimes it is someone who doesn't know that the site has a search function. The fact is that people occasionally start new hobbies, and thank god for the fact or we (humanity) would never have emerged from caves.

Edit** chose to ignore nitromorphine (bottom right of any posts)