Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Roknar wrote:
Thanks for replying. finally geting somehwere with this.
The black legion supplement works on a csm detachment, as does the crimson slaughter and given how the detachment doesn't stop being a csm detachment, the CS supplement allows you to declare it as a CS detachment as well in it's own right. Both only care about the detachment being a csm detachment. They don't provide any restriction like the old supplements did.

But it only describes doing so for a CSM detachment, not a CSM AND CS detachment.

 Roknar wrote:
It seem we disagree on the part about choice formations. From my point of view, a choice formation isn't any different than a normal formation. As such you can apply the supplement to such a formation and that's it. It isn't concerned about being part of a larger detachment. And as it is still a csm formation, the crusade detachment is also legal.
The units making up the formation are part of the formation and part of the crusade detachment and are subject to the rules of both. That alone doesn't cause a conflict.
There are no rules that say you can't have mixed formations, or battlefield roles for that matter. The only reason you can't have mixed battlefield roles is because the supplements only work on detachments and formations. It's not actually forbidden.

Than you are ignoring the fact that a Formation taken as a Choice has its units in two different detachments at the same time.

Can a detachment be partially made up of units with rules from a supplement? The "it doesn't say I can't" argument doesn't work because we are looking for where it says you can.

 Roknar wrote:
The supplements aren't being applied to only part for a detachment or formation, they are being applied to the entirety of the choice formation. The rules specifically allow you to apply this to both formations and detachments.

But that Choice Formation is also part of a larger Detachment. It is this key point you keep seeming to forget.

When you look at the larger detachment, only some of its units are listed as being from the BL/CS supplement. Where is the rule that allows you to partially dedicate a detachment to a supplement? I am asking on behalf of the larger detachment, not the smaller one now.

 Roknar wrote:
You said that mixing is the equivalent of having mixed battlefield roles. The only rules governing how choice formations work is in their respective books. Traitor's hate says the crusade detachment is a mix of specific formations and army list entries instead of battlefield roles. Some compulsory, some optional. And that units in a formation that is part of the crusade is part of both. That's it. It doesn't say anything about treating those formations differently than individual formations. It doesn't impose any additional restrictions.

No, I did not say it was the equivalent of having mixed battlefield roles. I said that having some, but not all, Choices be Black Legion would be like taking a CAD and having your Troops from Black Legion and your Elites from Crimson Slaughter. You are only applying the supplement to part of the detachment, not to all of it.

By taking the formation as part of the larger detachment, you are recognizing that detachment as the ultimate organization of that portion of your army. You cannot legally separate the Formation from the Detachment for the purposes of the supplement and still expect to benefit from its Command Benefits. It would be like a Space Marine Chapter Master separating itself from a unit of Centurions, but still expecting to use their Slow and Purposeful. It does not work that way, and there are zero rules to support such an action.

 Roknar wrote:
Additionally, it works both from the top down and from the bottom up. From the top, the crusade is a csm detachment made up of formations. Using my example, it is made up of 2 warband formations ( and let's just throw in a spawn to make it legal). If you make those two formations supplement formations, nothing changes. It is still made up of 2 core formations. And from the bottom up a unit is part of a formation and the detachment. Assuming the unit is of faction csm and can follow the supplement rules, it's good.

So long as that entire Crusade Detachment are following the same supplement rules, correct. Otherwise, if you have Formation #1 as Black Legion and Formation #2 as Crimson Slaughter or just simply NOT Black Legion, then your detachment is 33% Choices Black Legion and 66% Choices not.

To put this in to CAD terms, you have your Troops as Black Legion, but your Elites are not. This is not supported as being allowed by the rules you referenced.

 Roknar wrote:
The only difference between a purely csm formation and a supplement formation is that the supplement formations have an additional restriction,such as:"This is Black Legion formation". That is literally the only difference between a supplement formation and a csm formation. From an army organisational perspective they are identical.
The formations don't even get additional rules per se. The supplement rules exist outside of the formation so to speak and apply to units within a supplement formation, they aren't formation special rules in the ordinary sense.

And you are ignoring the point. The problem is not in the Formations themselves, the problem is when you look at the Crusade Detachment as a whole, is it a Black Legion Detachment, yes or no? Your answer is, "partially". That answer is not allowed in the rules you referenced. It is not forbidden, either, but we need to find where it is allowed.

 Roknar wrote:
I guess my point is that a supplement formation is only different from a unit's perspective. They don't change how you organize your army, they only change how some units work.
A supplement formation only adds a restriction. That restriction has no more effect on it's encasing detachment than the restriction saying the raptor talon lord needs a jump pack.
I believe I get where you're coming from now, but RAW doesn't support your version. It may not be intended this way but there is no rule that prohibits you from having choice formations with additional restrictions. And that is the only difference between a supplement formation and a regular formation. Provided of course you can still make legal unit configurations.

The problem isn't from the unit's perspective or the Formation's perspective. It is when you look at the Crusade Detachment and say, "This part of the Detachment is Black Legion, but this part is not". Remember, the actual Black Legion Special Rules state that this is in regards to a detachment, NOT the unit.

I'm not ignoring the fact that part of the crusade is a supplement formation. I'm saying it's irrelevant.
It's not just because it's not forbidden.

A supplement formation is a normal csm formation with an additional restriction, no more no less.
The supplements give you a blanket permission to add that restriction to any csm formation. The supplements use the word "any", that's not me paraphrasing. "Any" formation must thus include every possible formation, regardless of the presence of a larger detachment. To say otherwise would be imposing limits on the scope that simply aren't given in the supplement. So if this is giving you permission then traitor's hate would have to revoke or restrict that permission. It does not. This is where we clash.

 Charistoph wrote:
But it only describes doing so for a CSM detachment, not a CSM AND CS detachment.

Being a csm formation is enough. In order to apply the supplement restriction you need to ask exactly one question: Is this a csm formation? Nothing else matters, because that's what the supplements tell you to do.
This is equivalent to asking: is 1 a number? Whether or not it is an uneven or an even number makes no difference.

 Charistoph wrote:
Can a detachment be partially made up of units with rules from a supplement?

Yes. If this wasn't allowed the decurions wouldn't work because the units in the formations have extra rules and restrictions applied to them that are not from the crusade nor are they shared by other units in the crusade. A supplement formation only adds one restriction, it doesn't add any rules. It just says it is now also a supplement formation. To say you can't add a restriction would also break the normal formations, since they too add additional restrictions that the crusade does not have.

 Charistoph wrote:
But that Choice Formation is also part of a larger Detachment. It is this key point you keep seeming to forget.

When you look at the larger detachment, only some of its units are listed as being from the BL/CS supplement. Where is the rule that allows you to partially dedicate a detachment to a supplement? I am asking on behalf of the larger detachment, not the smaller one now.

...

So long as that entire Crusade Detachment are following the same supplement rules, correct. Otherwise, if you have Formation #1 as Black Legion and Formation #2 as Crimson Slaughter or just simply NOT Black Legion, then your detachment is 33% Choices Black Legion and 66% Choices not.
...

I'm not forgetting it, I'm saying it doesn't matter. For a crusade detachment to be legal you need 1 core and 1 auxiliary choice. A core formation with an additional restriction is still a core formation. The crusade doesn't care what the various restrictions are for the formations that make it up. It only matters if it it's a core/auxiliary choice or not.

Being functionally only 33% BL makes no difference. It would only make a difference if the supplements or traitor's hate specifically limited you by saying that any csm detachment may not consist of other types of formations. Which is a stretch since supplement formations are not different types either. There are only formations with more or less restrictions. Making it a supplement formation is only a figure of speech so to speak. It doesn't change the way the formation behaves or how the crusade treats them.

 Charistoph wrote:

And you are ignoring the point. The problem is not in the Formations themselves, the problem is when you look at the Crusade Detachment as a whole, is it a Black Legion Detachment, yes or no? Your answer is, "partially". That answer is not allowed in the rules you referenced. It is not forbidden, either, but we need to find where it is allowed.

The answer wouldn't be partially. The answer would be no, but that's not a question that is relevant in the first place.
On the one hand you need to ask whether or not your list is battleforged. For this you would need to ask if the crusade detachment is using at least one cor and one auxiliary. Yes.
Then you decide to add some restrictions to some of it's formations and ask again, is it still 1+ core and 1+ aux? Yes.
So it's a legal way of building the army.
Then you go ahead and configure your units, some of which must have VotLW , some of which may not. That's fine.
Being part of the crusade means that any units have VotLW as an option. The warbands would force it one way or another. Neither unit would be in conflict with the restrictions from the crusade

The only point where this might not be legal, is, as you state, the supplement or the crusade detachment itself prohibiting you from mixing supplement formations. As I stated in the beginning, the supplement allows it, by virtue of including all formations. Traitor's hate does not change that. Since we are given permission that is neither forbidden nor limited at any point, it must be legal.

If you wish, you can say that any Chaos Space Marines Detachment or Formation is also a Black Legion Detachment or Formation.

Straight from the updated Black Legion. The "or Formation" being present is what would allow having formations within the Black Crusade Detachment to have differing supplement options, without the overall Black Crusade detachment conflicting with the rule. Because it calls out formations explicitly, the overarching detachment does not become Black Legion (and thus does not disallow any Crimson Slaughter formations) by taking a core choice as a Black Legion formation.

Declaring a core choice as a Black Legion formation does not force the whole Crusade detachment into being Black Legion. However, if you were to declare that the Crusade detachment is a Black Legion detachment, this WOULD prevent Crimson Slaughter formations from being taken.

 Roknar wrote:
I'm not ignoring the fact that part of the crusade is a supplement formation. I'm saying it's irrelevant.
It's not just because it's not forbidden.

A supplement formation is a normal csm formation with an additional restriction, no more no less.
The supplements give you a blanket permission to add that restriction to any csm formation. The supplements use the word "any", that's not me paraphrasing. "Any" formation must thus include every possible formation, regardless of the presence of a larger detachment. To say otherwise would be imposing limits on the scope that simply aren't given in the supplement. So if this is giving you permission then traitor's hate would have to revoke or restrict that permission. It does not. This is where we clash.

Not just an additional restriction, additional rules. I'm not just focusing on this from a Black Legion perspective, but for all supplements, and some give benefits, not restrictions.

And if you think that this is just about "any" formation, then you are wrong. This is about being just part of a detachment. This is reviewing what it actually states and limiting it to the permission it grants, not about restrictions that do not exist.

 Roknar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
But it only describes doing so for a CSM detachment, not a CSM AND CS detachment.

Being a csm formation is enough. In order to apply the supplement restriction you need to ask exactly one question: Is this a csm formation? Nothing else matters, because that's what the supplements tell you to do.
This is equivalent to asking: is 1 a number? Whether or not it is an uneven or an even number makes no difference.

Oh, it does matter. Do you have permission to do this to a Crimson Slaughter Detachment? The answer is "no". You are only looking at the "CSM Detachment" and thinking, "that's enough", and ignoring the "and Crimson Slaughter Detachment" portion.

Your analogy is poor since we are looking at something that isn't as locked as a number. At best, we are looking at the difference between 1.0 and 1.3. If we are only looking at the ones value, then yes they are the same. But if we consider all of it, we'll be seeing that they are not the same.

 Roknar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Can a detachment be partially made up of units with rules from a supplement?

Yes. If this wasn't allowed the decurions wouldn't work because the units in the formations have extra rules and restrictions applied to them that are not from the crusade nor are they shared by other units in the crusade. A supplement formation only adds one restriction, it doesn't add any rules. It just says it is now also a supplement formation. To say you can't add a restriction would also break the normal formations, since they too add additional restrictions that the crusade does not have.

I don't think you understood the question.

The "Decurion"/Choice Detachments work because the rules that set them up state that they work. They specifically state in their rules:

Although units cannot normally belong to more than one Detachment, units from a Formation that is part of a Necron Decurion Detachment are an exception. They count as part of both their Formation and the Detachment, and have all associated Command Benefits and special rules. If your Warlord is part of a Formation or an Army List Entry that makes up part of a Decurion Detachment, that entire Decurion Detachment is your Primary Detachment.

The picture you quoted states:

If you wish, you can say that any Chaos Space Marines Detachment or Formation is also a Black Legion Detachment or Formation.

Detachments drawn from the Black Legion may use the Warlord Traits and Tactical Objectives from these pages in addition to those in Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Black Legion Detachments and Formations also have the special rules shown below.

So, it is not just a restriction, it adds rules to the setup. No where does it allow you to assign this designation to just a portion of a detachment. This isn't about adding a restriction, it is about finding permission.

 Roknar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
But that Choice Formation is also part of a larger Detachment. It is this key point you keep seeming to forget.

When you look at the larger detachment, only some of its units are listed as being from the BL/CS supplement. Where is the rule that allows you to partially dedicate a detachment to a supplement? I am asking on behalf of the larger detachment, not the smaller one now.

...

So long as that entire Crusade Detachment are following the same supplement rules, correct. Otherwise, if you have Formation #1 as Black Legion and Formation #2 as Crimson Slaughter or just simply NOT Black Legion, then your detachment is 33% Choices Black Legion and 66% Choices not.

I'm not forgetting it, I'm saying it doesn't matter. For a crusade detachment to be legal you need 1 core and 1 auxiliary choice. A core formation with an additional restriction is still a core formation. The crusade doesn't care what the various restrictions are for the formations that make it up. It only matters if it it's a core/auxiliary choice or not.

Being functionally only 33% BL makes no difference. It would only make a difference if the supplements or traitor's hate specifically limited you by saying that any csm detachment may not consist of other types of formations. Which is a stretch since supplement formations are not different types either. There are only formations with more or less restrictions. Making it a supplement formation is only a figure of speech so to speak. It doesn't change the way the formation behaves or how the crusade treats them.

Why does it not matter? Where does it state that it does not matter? Where does it state that you can have 33% of a detachment as a Black Legion Detachment?

The Formation in question is not just a detachment alone, it is a portion of the Crusade Detachment. If it was not part of the Crusade Detachment, then this discussion would be pointless. This is not how the Crusade Detachment is treating the Formation. It is how you are taking one part of a detachment, applying some Special Rules to it (by the Black Legion supplements own statements), and leaving the rest as not. You do not have permission to treat a Choice Formation as a completely separate detachment from the Crusade without removing it as a fulfilling Choice and that Formation losing the Crusade's Command Benefits.

 Roknar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

And you are ignoring the point. The problem is not in the Formations themselves, the problem is when you look at the Crusade Detachment as a whole, is it a Black Legion Detachment, yes or no? Your answer is, "partially". That answer is not allowed in the rules you referenced. It is not forbidden, either, but we need to find where it is allowed.

The answer wouldn't be partially. The answer would be no, but that's not a question that is relevant in the first place.

If the answer is no, then the Black Legion supplement would have no influence on the Formation in question. This isn't a rule that is gives permission to be done partially. You may want to try and divorce the Warband from the Crusade only for the purposes of the supplement acknowledgement, but you are not given permission to do this at any point without divorcing ALL of it.

 Roknar wrote:
Then you decide to add some restrictions to some of it's formations and ask again, is it still 1+ core and 1+ aux? Yes.

And there's your problem. Where does it state that you are allowed to "add some restrictions to some of it"?

You have yet to demonstrate this point has been written as a permission.

 Roknar wrote:
The only point where this might not be legal, is, as you state, the supplement or the crusade detachment itself prohibiting you from mixing supplement formations. As I stated in the beginning, the supplement allows it, by virtue of including all formations. Traitor's hate does not change that. Since we are given permission that is neither forbidden nor limited at any point, it must be legal.

No, we are not given permission to have one portion of the detachment under the auspices of a supplement while the rest of the detachment is not under the same auspices. The supplement does not allow for it. That it can be included in any CSM Formations is not in question. That it can only be set up for one portion of the Detachment is in question, because that one formation is still part of that Detachment.

You are focusing solely on the one Formation and still ignoring/forgetting that it is still part of another detachment as well. You are ignoring/forgetting it by saying it does not matter without providing anything but your own assurance that it does not matter. Where is the permission to say it does not matter?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jacksmiles wrote:

If you wish, you can say that any Chaos Space Marines Detachment or Formation is also a Black Legion Detachment or Formation.

Straight from the updated Black Legion. The "or Formation" being present is what would allow having formations within the Black Crusade Detachment to have differing supplement options, without the overall Black Crusade detachment conflicting with the rule. Because it calls out formations explicitly, the overarching detachment does not become Black Legion (and thus does not disallow any Crimson Slaughter formations) by taking a core choice as a Black Legion formation.

Declaring a core choice as a Black Legion formation does not force the whole Crusade detachment into being Black Legion. However, if you were to declare that the Crusade detachment is a Black Legion detachment, this WOULD prevent Crimson Slaughter formations from being taken.

I still need to see permission for it to be "part of a detachment". You are not given permission to divorce the Warband from the Crusade for the purposes of the supplement without also divorcing the Warband from every other part of the Crusade.

Yes, it is a Formation, that is not at issue. What is at issue is that the Formation is also part of another detachment, and that is the part you both are ignoring in order to justify this position.

 Charistoph wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

If you wish, you can say that any Chaos Space Marines Detachment or Formation is also a Black Legion Detachment or Formation.

Straight from the updated Black Legion. The "or Formation" being present is what would allow having formations within the Black Crusade Detachment to have differing supplement options, without the overall Black Crusade detachment conflicting with the rule. Because it calls out formations explicitly, the overarching detachment does not become Black Legion (and thus does not disallow any Crimson Slaughter formations) by taking a core choice as a Black Legion formation.

Declaring a core choice as a Black Legion formation does not force the whole Crusade detachment into being Black Legion. However, if you were to declare that the Crusade detachment is a Black Legion detachment, this WOULD prevent Crimson Slaughter formations from being taken.

I still need to see permission for it to be "part of a detachment". You are not given permission to divorce the Warband from the Crusade for the purposes of the supplement without also divorcing the Warband from every other part of the Crusade.

Yes, it is a Formation, that is not at issue. What is at issue is that the Formation is also part of another detachment, and that is the part you both are ignoring in order to justify this position.

I'm not ignoring it, I'm just taking the permission to treat a formation alone as a Black Legion formation and using that to allow a formation to be a Black Legion formation. Per the RAW in the supplements (this is the only faction where this can even come up right now, correct?), I don't see how it's not allowed. The permission to make a formation a BL formation is being followed, and there is nothing there about it enforcing those rules to formations outside of what you declare a BL formation. The formation is part of a larger detachment, yes, but we are given permission to make that formation BL and it doesn't state it affects the larger detachment in any way.

Nothing divorces it from the detachment after it is declared to be Black Legion, RAW.

EDIT: The way it's worded says to me "I declare this formation to be Black Legion. Zip zang zoom, it is done." I'm not seeing where you guys are saying it means everything from the detachment must entirely then become Black Legion, due to the rule saying just "Make any formation this if you want to." Any. It doesn't then put restrictions on it. That's why I see it this way.

Jacksmiles wrote:
I'm not ignoring it, I'm just taking the permission to treat a formation alone as a Black Legion formation and using that to allow a formation to be a Black Legion formation. Per the RAW in the supplements (this is the only faction where this can even come up right now, correct?), I don't see how it's not allowed. The permission to make a formation a BL formation is being followed, and there is nothing there about it enforcing those rules to formations outside of what you declare a BL formation. The formation is part of a larger detachment, yes, but we are given permission to make that formation BL and it doesn't state it affects the larger detachment in any way.

Nothing divorces it from the detachment after it is declared to be Black Legion, RAW.

Yes, you are ignoring it.

Units that would be receiving Black Legion rules in a Warband Choice of a Crusade are part of two detachments, the Warband detachment and the Crusade detachment.

By placing the Black Legion only on the Warband Choice, you have one detachment that is Black Legion (the Warband), but only a part of another detachment that is Black Legion (the Crusade).

This is the equivalent of declaring the Troops of a CAD as Black Legion, but leaving the HQ, Elites, and other Roles as either default CSM or Crimson Slaughter.

Either acknowledge ALL of the detachment as being part of one supplement, or demonstrate permission to apply it to only one portion of the detachment.

 Charistoph wrote:
Oh, it does matter. Do you have permission to do this to a Crimson Slaughter Detachment? The answer is "no".

I agree, but not having permission to do it isn't the same as prohibiting it.
The supplement allows you to apply the supplement rules to a csm formation.
In so doing it allows you to make a csm & black legion formation into a cs formation, because the rule says you can apply the CS rules to a CSM formation, which it is. And no other rule prohibits this.
It's not a mixed CSM & BL formation, it's a CSM formation. It is also a BL formation. It's both simultaneously, not a new third version.
You don't need further permission than that, because you already have permission. You can only do things that you have permission to do and the supplement gives you this permission.

It's the same for the crusade detachment. So what if only part of it is a BL formation?
You are given express permission to apply the supplement rules to a formation. You don't need to be given further permission to apply the rules to part of a detachment.
There is nothing to indicate that the warband within a crusade does not count as a formation. The supplements allows you to apply the rules to a formation because they say so. That's all the permission you need. You're just doing as it says.

There are no rules that prohibit having part of a crusade detachment consist of formations with extra rules.
Yes, you don't have explicit permission to go and add rules to part of a crusade. Instead you have permission to take any formation you want and apply the supplement rules.
This results in a crusade detachment with formations from different supplements, but that is not actually prohibited anywhere.

This isn't about not breaking any rules. When you follow the rules as written you end up with a crusade detachment that has mixed supplements. At no point are you doing more than you are permitted to do.
And you end up with a list that does not break any rules.

Being part of a crusade doesn't matter because there are no rules that say it matters. There are however rules that say you can apply the supplement rules to certain formations.
Is it a csm formation? Then go ahead and apply your supplement rules. So now you have a unit that both may and must take VotLW? Fine, it can do that, since taking VotLW or not are both allowed in a csm formation.

Charistoph,

If the words "Detachment or" were removed from the Black Legion rules such that they only mentioned Formations, would you then allow a single Chaos Warband inside a Black Crusade Detachment to be Black Legion?

Roknar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Oh, it does matter. Do you have permission to do this to a Crimson Slaughter Detachment? The answer is "no".

I agree, but not having permission to do it isn't the same as prohibiting it.
The supplement allows you to apply the supplement rules to a csm formation.
In so doing it allows you to make a csm & black legion formation into a cs formation, because the rule says you can apply the CS rules to a CSM formation, which it is. And no other rule prohibits this.
It's not a mixed CSM & BL formation, it's a CSM formation. It is also a BL formation. It's both simultaneously, not a new third version.
You don't need further permission than that, because you already have permission. You can only do things that you have permission to do and the supplement gives you this permission.

Which leads to being the "it doesn't say I can't" argument.

Roknar wrote:It's the same for the crusade detachment. So what if only part of it is a BL formation?
You are given express permission to apply the supplement rules to a formation. You don't need to be given further permission to apply the rules to part of a detachment.
There is nothing to indicate that the warband within a crusade does not count as a formation. The supplements allows you to apply the rules to a formation because they say so. That's all the permission you need. You're just doing as it says.

Again, the issue is not with the Formation, it is with the whole detachment. Pay attention.

Permission is needed to grant it to part of a detachment. By only applying it to one Choice, you are only applying it to only part of a detachment. You do not have permission to separate the formation from the detachment for any purposes.

Roknar wrote:There are no rules that prohibit having part of a crusade detachment consist of formations with extra rules.

True, so long as they are the Special Rules of that Formation. The Supplement rules are not of that Formation.

Roknar wrote:Yes, you don't have explicit permission to go and add rules to part of a crusade. Instead you have permission to take any formation you want and apply the supplement rules.

You are contradicting yourself then. You say you don't have permission to do something, but the state you have permission to do something. This does not work so long as the Warband Formation is tied to the Crusade Detachment.

Roknar wrote:This isn't about not breaking any rules. When you follow the rules as written you end up with a crusade detachment that has mixed supplements. At no point are you doing more than you are permitted to do.
And you end up with a list that does not break any rules.

When going by House Rules, correct. However, when going by the Rules Written by GW, there is no permission to grant use of a supplement to only part of a detachment. By applying a supplement to a portion of the Crusade Detachment, you are doing more than you are permitted to do.

Roknar wrote:Being part of a crusade doesn't matter because there are no rules that say it matters. There are however rules that say you can apply the supplement rules to certain formations.
Is it a csm formation? Then go ahead and apply your supplement rules. So now you have a unit that both may and must take VotLW? Fine, it can do that, since taking VotLW or not are both allowed in a csm formation

And you completely missed the point. Being part of the Crusade matters because it is a detachment. By applying the supplement to just one Warband, the Crusade Detachment is set up as only being partially dedicated to the supplement. Something you do not have permission to do.

Cal Hoskins wrote:Charistoph,

If the words "Detachment or" were removed from the Black Legion rules such that they only mentioned Formations, would you then allow a single Chaos Warband inside a Black Crusade Detachment to be Black Legion?

Possibly, but that has not been brought up, as it? "Detachment" is not removed from the qualifications.

CHaristoph, I believe the issue is that the Warband is still a Formation, despite being part of a Detachment, and as such fulfills the requirement of Detachment or Formation.

However, I don't think it was intended to affect only part of a multi-formation detachment, and suspect it is meant to apply to Detachments/Formations as a whole. If you understand what I am trying to say.

The trouble is that it's typical GW writing.

Happyjew, what you said makes perfect sense, but I see that as distinctly RAI. The supplements don't actually take into account detachments made up of formations, RAW.

Charistoph, I do see what you mean about ignoring that it makes part of a detachment BL while part of it is not. However, I still disagree with you that it's not allowed. I'm at work so responding to each point in a multi-quote is tough, but here's another point:

"Detachment" doesn't HAVE to be removed from the qualifications. Saying "or" means one or the other. By making a formation BL we are following RAW. Obviously this is agreed on.

Whether or not a formation within a Decurion-style detachment can use a supplement while others do not is the dispute. You ask where we get permission to do so. We are pointing at "or formation." We have permission to make any formation Black Legion. This is 100% true. What we needed was GW to tell us how this interacts with a detachment that is filled up with formations, but they didn't. It's a permissive rule set, and sure, maybe my argument is "It doesn't say I can't" to you, but to me, my argument is "It says I can."

It says I can make this formation BL.

Sitting here thinking it more as I type this response, I do believe RAI it's meant to apply to whatever the highest level detachment is (if wording it that makes sense), but as written? It's worded in such a way that I wouldn't argue with anyone at the store over it.

The conversation I had with myself in my head:
A. "I make this formation BL, but not the Crusade detachment."
B. "Then the Crusade detachment is partially BL, there's no permission for partial."
A. "That doesn't matter, I have permission to make the formation BL regardless."
B. "True, but then I actually DO have a partial BL detachment, still, which doesn't make much sense because how is a detachment partially BL?"
A. "Doesn't matter, all that matters is that I made this formation BL, which follows the permission granted."

Maybe Side A in my brain is just being stubborn, but it really looks like it's right to me currently. I'm gonna wait for GW to weigh in on it now, because that "or" really hangs me up. Considering formations ARE detachments, there's no need for an "or formation" in the statement.

Perhaps I should have elaborated. I did not contradict myself.
I'm saying there are two ways to apply the supplement rules in a crusade formation.
One would be to make part of a crusade detachment a supplement formation. You don't have permission to do this.
The other is to apply the rules directly to a csm formation. You have permission to do this.

When that formation happens to be part of a crusade detachment, the end result is the same, but you are reaching it in a different manner.
Do you agree that end result is not in dispute, only how you get there?

Happyjew wrote:CHaristoph, I believe the issue is that the Warband is still a Formation, despite being part of a Detachment, and as such fulfills the requirement of Detachment or Formation.

However, I don't think it was intended to affect only part of a multi-formation detachment, and suspect it is meant to apply to Detachments/Formations as a whole. If you understand what I am trying to say.

That's actually what I have been saying. It does not state that it can only affect part of a detachment, so we cannot apply it to only part of a detachment.

Yes, Roknar is trying to apply it to only the Formation part of it, but in order to do so, you have to ignore the fact that Formation is also part of another Detachment, and we do not have permission to make this declaration to only a portion of a detachment.

To put it in perspective, can you set up a Gladius Strike Force with the Battle Demi-Company as Imperial Fists, but the 10th Company Task Force as Raven Guard? They are both their own detachments as they are Formations.

Jacksmiles wrote:Happyjew, what you said makes perfect sense, but I see that as distinctly RAI. The supplements don't actually take into account detachments made up of formations, RAW.

It does and it doesn't. It recognizes Detachments and Formations. It just doesn't allow for just portions of the Choice Detachments that are Formations to be separated out from a Detachment for this purpose any more than Chapter Tactics does.

Jacksmiles wrote:Charistoph, I do see what you mean about ignoring that it makes part of a detachment BL while part of it is not. However, I still disagree with you that it's not allowed. I'm at work so responding to each point in a multi-quote is tough, but here's another point:

"Detachment" doesn't HAVE to be removed from the qualifications. Saying "or" means one or the other. By making a formation BL we are following RAW. Obviously this is agreed on.

Whether or not a formation within a Decurion-style detachment can use a supplement while others do not is the dispute. You ask where we get permission to do so. We are pointing at "or formation." We have permission to make any formation Black Legion. This is 100% true. What we needed was GW to tell us how this interacts with a detachment that is filled up with formations, but they didn't. It's a permissive rule set, and sure, maybe my argument is "It doesn't say I can't" to you, but to me, my argument is "It says I can."

It says I can make this formation BL.

Which then makes only a portion of the Crusade, BL. Where is the permission to do that? Permission to do it to a Formation is insufficient for being able to ignore it for the other detachment that it is connected to.

Jacksmiles wrote:Sitting here thinking it more as I type this response, I do believe RAI it's meant to apply to whatever the highest level detachment is (if wording it that makes sense), but as written? It's worded in such a way that I wouldn't argue with anyone at the store over it.

The conversation I had with myself in my head:
A. "I make this formation BL, but not the Crusade detachment."
B. "Then the Crusade detachment is partially BL, there's no permission for partial."
A. "That doesn't matter, I have permission to make the formation BL regardless."
B. "True, but then I actually DO have a partial BL detachment, still, which doesn't make much sense because how is a detachment partially BL?"
A. "Doesn't matter, all that matters is that I made this formation BL, which follows the permission granted."

Maybe Side A in my brain is just being stubborn, but it really looks like it's right to me currently. I'm gonna wait for GW to weigh in on it now, because that "or" really hangs me up. Considering formations ARE detachments, there's no need for an "or formation" in the statement.

The problem is, and I've said this many times, "Where does it state this does not matter?" This is a decision that you all are making without anything written to support this. Just because it is allowed for a Formation does not mean we get to ignore it when that Formation is part of a larger detachment.

Roknar wrote:Perhaps I should have elaborated. I did not contradict myself.
I'm saying there are two ways to apply the supplement rules in a crusade formation.
One would be to make part of a crusade detachment a supplement formation. You don't have permission to do this.
The other is to apply the rules directly to a csm formation. You have permission to do this.

When that formation happens to be part of a crusade detachment, the end result is the same, but you are reaching it in a different manner.
Do you agree that end result is not in dispute, only how you get there?

Not quite. You have already noted you do not have permission to do it one way, you don't get to bypass it by coming at it from a different direction because by doing so you do the very thing you state is not permitted in the first sentence comes to pass.

If the Formation was operating on its own, this would not be an issue, but it is not, it is part of another detachment. As soon as you apply the supplement's rules to that formation you are immediately applying it to only a part of the larger detachment. You must either disengage the supplement's rules from the Formation or apply it to all of the Crusade Detachment in order to comply with the standard you have already recognized. There is zero wiggle room in this without completely disconnecting the Warband from the Crusade. As soon as you disconnect one part of it, it all must be disconnected. We do not have permission to do things part way here.

 Charistoph wrote:

"Which then makes only a portion of the Crusade, BL. Where is the permission to do that? Permission to do it to a Formation is insufficient for being able to ignore it for the other detachment that it is connected to. "

"Not quite. You have already noted you do not have permission to do it one way, you don't get to bypass it by coming at it from a different direction because by doing so you do the very thing you state is not permitted in the first sentence comes to pass. "

That's exactly my point though. The supplement gives you permission to apply it to a formation. You can't ignore that. Even if it is part of a crusade it is still a formation.
It works because while it is not permitted in the first sentence is not prohibited either. It's simply not covered in the rules at all, because they somehow managed to neglect that possibility when they updated the supplements.

To say you can't apply the supplement rule because it is part of a detachment is also to say it isn't a formation anymore. It would be a different concept, like a battlefield role but not.
As far as the rules go however, the only sensible thing (for me anyway) is to say that a formation that is part of a detachment is still also a formation and thus all rules that apply to them must also apply here. That then also includes the supplement.

It might be weird but in the same way you can't ignore that the formation is part of a detachment, likewise, you can't ignore that the only condition the supplement rules state is that it must be a formation or detachment.
Unless you say that such a formation does not count as a formation, then you can apply the supplement rules because they give you permission to do this. And since the there are no rules governing how formations in a detachment differ from a normal formation one way or another, there is no basis to say that this becomes an illegal configuration.

As I understand it you shoot with each Terminator unit in the Terminator Annihilation Force as soon as they land, so you:

1. Deploy a unit
2. Roll for scatter, scatter
3. Shoot at declared target
4. Repeat at 1 until you run out of units from formation arriving from Deep Strike

It's worth noting that the Terminator Annihilation Force gains Hatred against whatever the current target might be. Adds an extra little oomph against Non-Imperial targets, so it can be handy to acquire a new target that you might want to charge after the drop on the first turn.

Spawn come with Fear.

Heldrakes can find pinned units in the Movement phase in several ways. The first is from passenger units deploying from wrecked or exploded vehicles. These vehicles can be wrecked or exploded via Vector Strikes, Ramming, and the aforementioned Terminator Annihilation Force's shooting upon deployment. Units can also be forced to fall back via Tank Shock.

Units can be forced to fall back if they fail a morale check from 25% casualties in the movement phase, but that happens at the end of the phase after everything has already done vector strikes and the like. Still, if they're falling back in the Psychic Phase and the Shooting Phase, they'll automatically fail another morale check and fall back another 2-3D6".

 Roknar wrote:
That's exactly my point though. The supplement gives you permission to apply it to a formation. You can't ignore that. Even if it is part of a crusade it is still a formation.
It works because while it is not permitted in the first sentence is not prohibited either. It's simply not covered in the rules at all, because they somehow managed to neglect that possibility when they updated the supplements.

But by doing so you you are performing an action in which you do not have permission to perform.

 Roknar wrote:
To say you can't apply the supplement rule because it is part of a detachment is also to say it isn't a formation anymore. It would be a different concept, like a battlefield role but not.
As far as the rules go however, the only sensible thing (for me anyway) is to say that a formation that is part of a detachment is still also a formation and thus all rules that apply to them must also apply here. That then also includes the supplement.

Incorrect. I am not saying that it isn't a Formation. I am saying that it is not just a Formation. It is not standing alone. We are not talking about just one detachment, but two in the same "area" of the army. You cannot do something to the Warband without it affecting the Crusade in some way. That is the distinction you are ignoring for no reason but your own satisfaction.

 Roknar wrote:
It might be weird but in the same way you can't ignore that the formation is part of a detachment, likewise, you can't ignore that the only condition the supplement rules state is that it must be a formation or detachment.
Unless you say that such a formation does not count as a formation, then you can apply the supplement rules because they give you permission to do this. And since the there are no rules governing how formations in a detachment differ from a normal formation one way or another, there is no basis to say that this becomes an illegal configuration.

There are rules that govern how a formation in a detachment differ from a normal formation, and I quoted you one.

Although units cannot normally belong to more than one Detachment, units from a Formation that is part of a Gladius Strike Force are an exception. They count as part of both their Formation and the Detachment, and have all associated Command Benefits and special rules. If your Warlord is part of a Formation or an Army List Entry that makes up part of a Gladius Strike Force, that entire Gladius Strike Force is your Primary Detachment.

Unless the Crusade is missing a paragraph like this in the rules that set it up, you do not have a case because you are ignoring it. If it is missing this paragraph, then it is not is not capable of having the full power of these Choice Detachments.

The only action you're performing - formation X is CS - is one explicitly allowed. You arevNOT saying "the rest aren't CS", you are making no declaration at all.

 Charistoph wrote:
To put it in perspective, can you set up a Gladius Strike Force with the Battle Demi-Company as Imperial Fists, but the 10th Company Task Force as Raven Guard? They are both their own detachments as they are Formations.

The reason you can't do that is because both the rules for Chapter Tactics and the Gladius Strike Force itself tell you that you can't. The Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter, and Black Crusade rules do not list a similar restriction.

Being able to apply the supplement rules hinges on whether or not a formation in a crusade detachment is a formation or something else.
If it is a formation (of any sort) you can use the supplement rules. If it's something else, then you can't.
I am convinced that it is a formation, you aren't. Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

This is similar to a rule targeting a character. An independent character is more than a character, but that doesn't matter.
You are told to target a character and an independent character is still a character and thus you can target the IC.
You don't need extra/double permission to be able to target a character that is infantry or jump or whatever. You only need permission once to target a character.
As far as I'm concerned a formation inside a detachment is still a formation. No matter what else it might be.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The only action you're performing - formation X is CS - is one explicitly allowed. You arevNOT saying "the rest aren't CS", you are making no declaration at all.

But by not declaring the rest of the detachment as CS/BL, you are declaring them as NOT that.

To go back to it, where does it state that you can only declare part of a detachment. You cannot.

Cal Hoskins wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
To put it in perspective, can you set up a Gladius Strike Force with the Battle Demi-Company as Imperial Fists, but the 10th Company Task Force as Raven Guard? They are both their own detachments as they are Formations.

The reason you can't do that is because both the rules for Chapter Tactics and the Gladius Strike Force itself tell you that you can't. The Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter, and Black Crusade rules do not list a similar restriction.

What is the difference in standards? You declare this for a detachment (not part of a detachment) with the Supplements. With Chapter Tactics, its all models from a detachment or Formation.

I am considering the exact same standards that Roknar is using to make this statement. I am only considering the Formations individually with this set up of Chapter Tactics. This is perfectly legal according to him.

Roknar wrote:Being able to apply the supplement rules hinges on whether or not a formation in a crusade detachment is a formation or something else.
If it is a formation (of any sort) you can use the supplement rules. If it's something else, then you can't.
I am convinced that it is a formation, you aren't. Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

It can be something else, though. It can be a detachment. And the rules YOU quoted stated that it is for a detachment as well. What you have yet to present is that it can be applied to only part of a detachment. It doesn't matter if part of that detachment is a detachment all its own, you haven't been given permission to separate that Formation from the Detachment for this consideration.

Roknar wrote:This is similar to a rule targeting a character. An independent character is more than a character, but that doesn't matter.
You are told to target a character and an independent character is still a character and thus you can target the IC.
You don't need extra/double permission to be able to target a character that is infantry or jump or whatever. You only need permission once to target a character.
As far as I'm concerned a formation inside a detachment is still a formation. No matter what else it might be.

You rather state my point here. I am saying that you cannot disassociate one part of a detachment from the other any more than you can separate the Character Unit Type from a model with the Independent Character Rule.

In addition, you continue to ignore what I have stated several times now. The fact that the Warband Formation is its own detachment is not question. It is the fact that it is part of another detachment that you are ignoring for convenience. You do not get to ignore this factor any more than the Character's special rules for an Independent Character.

You seem to have misread what I wrote.
I didn't dismiss the possibility that they are something else.
Using a formation as part of another detachment creates three possible scenarios.
Either a formation remains a formation no different from a stand alone formation, either it becomes a formation + something, or it becomes something else entirely.

The supplements provide no exception or limitation to their scope. Thus the first two options would allow you to apply the rules. More on that later.
Option three prevents their use, but option three does a lot more than that.

Traitor's hate says a crusade has formations and army list entries instead of battlefield roles.
Units are part of the crusade and part of the various formations.
That is all we know.

Option three isn't explained in the rules anywhere. This also means that the whole decurion concept falls apart because it's never explained how to handle such a thing. If they're not formations, then how do you use them? The BRB only explains how to use formations, detachments and army list entries.
Traitor's hate only mentions formations. That's good enough for me to assume that the choice formations are formations and follow all their rules.

Targeting a formation within a detachment is of a smaller scope than the permission to target any formation.
The permission to apply the rules to *any* formation includes, by definition, standalone formations, formations within detachments, formations +1, formations within formations and whatever other future kind of formation there ever will be.
Therefore you don't need to specifically include the notion of applying the supplement rules to a crusade choice formation. It is implicit. Assuming of course that such a formation does indeed count as a formation. And I don't see any reason to believe otherwise.

So I have to disagree with "you haven't been given permission to separate that Formation from the Detachment for this consideration." Like I just said, *any* formation (or detachment , as you noted) includes the crusade choice formations provided you consider them formations. Which I do, as per option one or two.

 Charistoph wrote:
But by not declaring the rest of the detachment as CS/BL, you are declaring them as NOT that.

This is not true. It is neither consequence nor an action you do.
The two declarations are not linked. You are saying this entire warband is BL/CS. No more, no less.
In order for that to declare the others not BL/CS you would need some kind of restriction like the old supplements had, that said you can only use the rules of one supplement.
That's not the case here.

 Roknar wrote:
You seem to have misread what I wrote.
I didn't dismiss the possibility that they are something else.
Using a formation as part of another detachment creates three possible scenarios.
Either a formation remains a formation no different from a stand alone formation, either it becomes a formation + something, or it becomes something else entirely.

And the Choice Detachments specifically state that they become a Formation + part of another Detachment. In a way, it IS something else because normally a unit can only be part of one detachment, yet these are part of two.

 Roknar wrote:
The supplements provide no exception or limitation to their scope. Thus the first two options would allow you to apply the rules. More on that later.
Option three prevents their use, but option three does a lot more than that.

You've already agreed that there is a limit, but it is one that is provided by lack of permission. That limit being, you do not have permission to apply this to only part of a detachment.

 Roknar wrote:
Traitor's hate says a crusade has formations and army list entries instead of battlefield roles.
Units are part of the crusade and part of the various formations.
That is all we know.

Really? It doesn't state that the units are part of both detachments? That would be new and cause a couple problems.

 Roknar wrote:
Option three isn't explained in the rules anywhere. This also means that the whole decurion concept falls apart because it's never explained how to handle such a thing. If they're not formations, then how do you use them? The BRB only explains how to use formations, detachments and army list entries.
Traitor's hate only mentions formations. That's good enough for me to assume that the choice formations are formations and follow all their rules.

Then I think you missed something or you are misrepresenting.

Is the Crusade a Detachment made by the collection of Formations and specific lists of units selected by the type of Choice they are listed as?

If yes, then you select the Crusade Detachment and then select the Formations to make up its Core Choice(s) and add Command and Auxiliary Choices as points, models, and desire fit. You are proposing to then make part of that Detachment Black Legion. This is the same as taking a Combined Arms Detachment and effectively declaring a Troops Selection as Black Legion, in terms of a partial dedication.

If not, then you have been misrepresenting the Crusade throughout all these posts.

 Roknar wrote:
Targeting a formation within a detachment is of a smaller scope than the permission to target any formation.
The permission to apply the rules to *any* formation includes, by definition, standalone formations, formations within detachments, formations +1, formations within formations and whatever other future kind of formation there ever will be.
Therefore you don't need to specifically include the notion of applying the supplement rules to a crusade choice formation. It is implicit. Assuming of course that such a formation does indeed count as a formation. And I don't see any reason to believe otherwise.

I disagree. You need permission to add it partially to a Detachment in order for it to work, especially since you have to select the Detachment in question before selecting the Formation in question. This supplement was brought up to date in the last few months, correct? This type of Detachment has been around for years now, so those things would (should) be in consideration. It's not like the Blood Angels situation, after all.

This Warband we are speaking of is not just a Formation, but part of a larger Detachment. Would you let someone get away with doing that with Chapter Tactics in a Gladius Strike Force? The standards are exactly the same.

 Roknar wrote:
So I have to disagree with "you haven't been given permission to separate that Formation from the Detachment for this consideration." Like I just said, *any* formation (or detachment , as you noted) includes the crusade choice formations provided you consider them formations. Which I do, as per option one or two.

Then you do not even consider what I am saying. You do not see the Warband Formation as part of another Detachment, or you consider it being added to the Detachment happens later.

This Formation is both its own detachment, as well as being part of another. If you do not have permission to apply it to just part of a Detachment, you are fine when looking at it from just the Formation, but you fail when you are looking at it from the perspective of the Detachment.

 Roknar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
But by not declaring the rest of the detachment as CS/BL, you are declaring them as NOT that.

This is not true. It is neither consequence nor an action you do.
The two declarations are not linked. You are saying this entire warband is BL/CS. No more, no less.
In order for that to declare the others not BL/CS you would need some kind of restriction like the old supplements had, that said you can only use the rules of one supplement.
That's not the case here.

There is a consequence. Those other units/models will not be benefiting/restricted by those supplemental rules. As an opposing player I would need to know which are and which are not Black Legion Chaos Space Marines, Crimson Slaughter Chaos Space Marines, or Chaos Space Marines. Technically, you are making those declarations in your army build.

 Charistoph wrote:

Cal Hoskins wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
To put it in perspective, can you set up a Gladius Strike Force with the Battle Demi-Company as Imperial Fists, but the 10th Company Task Force as Raven Guard? They are both their own detachments as they are Formations.

The reason you can't do that is because both the rules for Chapter Tactics and the Gladius Strike Force itself tell you that you can't. The Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter, and Black Crusade rules do not list a similar restriction.

What is the difference in standards? You declare this for a detachment (not part of a detachment) with the Supplements. With Chapter Tactics, its all models from a detachment or Formation.

The difference is this: Chapter Tactics are assigned on a per unit basis and limited to a single Chapter Tactic per Detachment/Formation. Chaos Supplement rules are assigned on a per Formation/Detachment basis and lack any kind of limit to mixing.

The Chapter Tactics rules include "All models in the same Detachment or Formation must be drawn from the same Chapter" and the Gladius Strike Force Rules include "All units in the Detachment must have the Space Marines Faction and must be drawn from the same Chapter". See how those both include the words "all" and "must"? The Chaos Supplement rules lack any kind of similar wording.

Cal Hoskins wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Cal Hoskins wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
To put it in perspective, can you set up a Gladius Strike Force with the Battle Demi-Company as Imperial Fists, but the 10th Company Task Force as Raven Guard? They are both their own detachments as they are Formations.

The reason you can't do that is because both the rules for Chapter Tactics and the Gladius Strike Force itself tell you that you can't. The Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter, and Black Crusade rules do not list a similar restriction.

What is the difference in standards? You declare this for a detachment (not part of a detachment) with the Supplements. With Chapter Tactics, its all models from a detachment or Formation.

The difference is this: Chapter Tactics are assigned on a per unit basis and limited to a single Chapter Tactic per Detachment/Formation. Chaos Supplement rules are assigned on a per Formation/Detachment basis and lack any kind of limit to mixing.

The Chapter Tactics rules include "All models in the same Detachment or Formation must be drawn from the same Chapter" and the Gladius Strike Force Rules include "All units in the Detachment must have the Space Marines Faction and must be drawn from the same Chapter". See how those both include the words "all" and "must"? The Chaos Supplement rules lack any kind of similar wording.

The Chapter Tactic Rule is assigned on a per unit basis. The specific form of Chapter Tactic is assigned to the detachment, no partials are permitted.

Moving from there, the Demi-Company is its own Formation Detachment, and that is sufficient for Roknar's consideration.

He is ignoring the fact that there is another detachment involved in the situation and we do not have permission to assign this supplement to only part of the detachment any more than we can assign the specific form of Chapter Tactic to just part of the Gladius Strike Force.

 Charistoph wrote:

He is ignoring the fact that there is another detachment involved in the situation and we do not have permission to assign this supplement to only part of the detachment any more than we can assign the specific form of Chapter Tactic to just part of the Gladius Strike Force.

The problem is, though, that there is permission to use it with a formation, and that permission did not distinguish between a formation that stands by itself or a formation that is included as part of a detachment. Since there is permission to use it in a formation, in order to not be able to use that formation in a detachment there would need to be something specific that would negate that permission (the case of trying to stick a formation or a model/unit in a formation that has VotLW into a detachment that doesn't let you have that, using a pertinent example here). If the detachment in that case is a general CSM one, and one sticks in a formation with units with VotLW, and another formation using a supplement prohibiting models in that formation from having VotLW, that would be legal from RAW as 1) there is no restriction on only one supplement per detachment with the newest vestions of the supplements and 2) you already have permission to use the supplements on formations, and do not have anything specific prohibiting that permission. It might not be what GW intends (and certainly wasn't with the earlier versions of the supplements, but with the changes with the updates for these their thinking may have changed), but it's still covered by RAW. It would be a good thing for them to cover in a FAQ for the Traitor's Hate supplement.

 doctortom wrote:
The problem is, though, that there is permission to use it with a formation, and that permission did not distinguish between a formation that stands by itself or a formation that is included as part of a detachment. Since there is permission to use it in a formation, in order to not be able to use that formation in a detachment there would need to be something specific that would negate that permission (the case of trying to stick a formation or a model/unit in a formation that has VotLW into a detachment that doesn't let you have that, using a pertinent example here). If the detachment in that case is a general CSM one, and one sticks in a formation with units with VotLW, and another formation using a supplement prohibiting models in that formation from having VotLW, that would be legal from RAW as 1) there is no restriction on only one supplement per detachment with the newest vestions of the supplements and 2) you already have permission to use the supplements on formations, and do not have anything specific prohibiting that permission. It might not be what GW intends (and certainly wasn't with the earlier versions of the supplements, but with the changes with the updates for these their thinking may have changed), but it's still covered by RAW. It would be a good thing for them to cover in a FAQ for the Traitor's Hate supplement.

1) You have permission to apply the supplement to one type of an army's detachment, but if that army is also another type of army, you don't not have permission to apply it to that. I cannot apply the Black Legion Supplement to a Crimson Slaughter Detachment. True or False?

2) You do NOT have permission to apply a supplement to only a part of a detachment. True or False?

3) The Crusade is a Detachment. True or False?

4) In this example, the Warband is a Formation Choice purchased as part of the Crusade Detachment. True or False?

5) The Supplement does not permit the ability to separate the Warband Formation Choice from the Crusade Detachment it was chosen to be a part of, for any reason. True or False?

These are the questions I keep asking, and all I get is "True, but it doesn't matter" with no rules to support the "it doesn't matter".

 Charistoph wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
The problem is, though, that there is permission to use it with a formation, and that permission did not distinguish between a formation that stands by itself or a formation that is included as part of a detachment. Since there is permission to use it in a formation, in order to not be able to use that formation in a detachment there would need to be something specific that would negate that permission (the case of trying to stick a formation or a model/unit in a formation that has VotLW into a detachment that doesn't let you have that, using a pertinent example here). If the detachment in that case is a general CSM one, and one sticks in a formation with units with VotLW, and another formation using a supplement prohibiting models in that formation from having VotLW, that would be legal from RAW as 1) there is no restriction on only one supplement per detachment with the newest vestions of the supplements and 2) you already have permission to use the supplements on formations, and do not have anything specific prohibiting that permission. It might not be what GW intends (and certainly wasn't with the earlier versions of the supplements, but with the changes with the updates for these their thinking may have changed), but it's still covered by RAW. It would be a good thing for them to cover in a FAQ for the Traitor's Hate supplement.

1) You have permission to apply the supplement to one type of an army's detachment, but if that army is also another type of army, you don't not have permission to apply it to that. I cannot apply the Black Legion Supplement to a Crimson Slaughter Detachment. True or False?

True, if the detachment is already defined as being one subfaction/supplement, you can't apply the other. That is not what I described as being something allowed, however, I described something different.

 Charistoph wrote:
2) You do NOT have permission to apply a supplement to only a part of a detachment. True or False?

False. If the detachment is one made up of formations, you DO have permission to applly a supplement to individual formations, provided there is no limitations from the detachment itself to prevent it. Another supplement being applied to the detachment (as you have in post #1) is such a limitation. If the detachment is merely a vanilla CSM detachment, however, you could have one formation be a Black Legion formation 9if it meets requiements) and one being a Crimson Slaughter formation (providing it meets requirements). It would have to be a vanilla CSM detachment that is made up of formations, however. (This could be extended to other armies if you had a vanilla decurion type detachment made up of different formations, and two supplements that you could apply to formations therein).

 Charistoph wrote:
These are the questions I keep asking, and all I get is "True, but it doesn't matter" with no rules to support the "it doesn't matter".

You can't do it to a formation in a detachment that already has a supplement applied to it, You don't have a rule permitting replacing a supplement for part of a detachment with another supplement. I'm not arguing that you can do it for a detachment of formations from a supplement though. As I said, however, if it's a vanilla detachment made up of formations, as long as a supplement is not applied to the detachment as a whole, you can apply different supplements to different formations within it as long as you meet the requirements for those supplements and there isn't a specific limitation for the detachment itself.

 doctortom wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
2) You do NOT have permission to apply a supplement to only a part of a detachment. True or False?

False. If the detachment is one made up of formations, you DO have permission to applly a supplement to individual formations, provided there is no limitations from the detachment itself to prevent it. Another supplement being applied to the detachment (as you have in post #1) is such a limitation. If the detachment is merely a vanilla CSM detachment, however, you could have one formation be a Black Legion formation 9if it meets requiements) and one being a Crimson Slaughter formation (providing it meets requirements). It would have to be a vanilla CSM detachment that is made up of formations, however. (This could be extended to other armies if you had a vanilla decurion type detachment made up of different formations, and two supplements that you could apply to formations therein).

You answered the question with an answer of what you wanted to hear and not the question itself.

Where does it state you can do this to only part of a detachment? The fact that this part is also a detachment of its own is irrelevant unless you can satisfy the permission for both detachments.

Where does it state permission to separate the detachment in to parts like this?

 Charistoph wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
2) You do NOT have permission to apply a supplement to only a part of a detachment. True or False?

False. If the detachment is one made up of formations, you DO have permission to applly a supplement to individual formations, provided there is no limitations from the detachment itself to prevent it. Another supplement being applied to the detachment (as you have in post #1) is such a limitation. If the detachment is merely a vanilla CSM detachment, however, you could have one formation be a Black Legion formation 9if it meets requiements) and one being a Crimson Slaughter formation (providing it meets requirements). It would have to be a vanilla CSM detachment that is made up of formations, however. (This could be extended to other armies if you had a vanilla decurion type detachment made up of different formations, and two supplements that you could apply to formations therein).

You answered the question with an answer of what you wanted to hear and not the question itself.

Where does it state you can do this to only part of a detachment? The fact that this part is also a detachment of its own is irrelevant unless you can satisfy the permission for both detachments.

Where does it state permission to separate the detachment in to parts like this?

It states that you can do it to a detachment or a formation. If a detachment is made up of formations, you have permission to do it to a formation in the detachment because you have permission to do it to a formation. You have to show that there is some restriction to revoke the permission to apply it to a formation. That the formation is part of a detachment is relevant only in that there might be something with the detachment that will give reason to prohibit the permission. The mere fact that the formation is also part of a detachment is not reason in and of itself to prohibit being able to apply the supplement to a formation.

Your turn, where does it state that being part of a detachment automatically override the permission to apply the supplement to a formation if the supplement states it may be applied to a detachment or a formation? You already have permission to apply it to a formation in that case, and saying"detachment or formation" is not in and of itself a prohibition on applying it to a formation.

 Charistoph wrote:

Cal Hoskins wrote:

The difference is this: Chapter Tactics are assigned on a per unit basis and limited to a single Chapter Tactic per Detachment/Formation. Chaos Supplement rules are assigned on a per Formation/Detachment basis and lack any kind of limit to mixing.

The Chapter Tactics rules include "All models in the same Detachment or Formation must be drawn from the same Chapter" and the Gladius Strike Force Rules include "All units in the Detachment must have the Space Marines Faction and must be drawn from the same Chapter". See how those both include the words "all" and "must"? The Chaos Supplement rules lack any kind of similar wording.

The Chapter Tactic Rule is assigned on a per unit basis. The specific form of Chapter Tactic is assigned to the detachment, no partials are permitted.

This is simply incorrect. This is directly from the Chapter Tactics rules: "When choosing an army, you must make a note of which Chapter each unit with the Chapter Tactics special rule is drawn from." If Chapter Tactics were decided only when a group of units were placed inside a Detachment/Formation then you could never have any Iron Hands (or whatever) in an Unbound Army where they are completely outside any Detachment/Formation.

The rules go on to say "All models in the same Detachment or Formation must be drawn from the same Chapter." Without this sentence nothing would prevent Ultramarines and Raven Guard from being in the same Detachment/Formation.

The Black Legion supplement says "If you wish, you can say that any Chaos Space Marines Detachment or Formation is also a Black Legion Detachment or Formation." It has no further requirements or limitations.

Chapter Tactics summary: Pick a unit, assign it a Chapter. Don't put different Chapters in the same Detachment/Formation.
Black Legion summary: Pick a Detachment/Formation, assign it Black Legion rules. <See how there is no equivalent rule here?>

On another note, I see nothing preventing a single Formation from being both Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter. Not many Formations can meet the Restrictions of both supplements, but a few can.

To tackle this from another angle, would you say that the various Deathwatch Kill Team Doctrines (for example, Aquila Doctrine: Non-Vehicle model from this Formation can re-roll any To Wound rolls and armour penetration rolls of 1.) apply to the Leader of a Strategium Command Team?