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 Charistoph wrote:

1) You have permission to apply the supplement to one type of an army's detachment, but if that army is also another type of army, you don't not have permission to apply it to that. I cannot apply the Black Legion Supplement to a Crimson Slaughter Detachment. True or False?

2) You do NOT have permission to apply a supplement to only a part of a detachment. True or False?

3) The Crusade is a Detachment. True or False?

4) In this example, the Warband is a Formation Choice purchased as part of the Crusade Detachment. True or False?

5) The Supplement does not permit the ability to separate the Warband Formation Choice from the Crusade Detachment it was chosen to be a part of, for any reason. True or False?

These are the questions I keep asking, and all I get is "True, but it doesn't matter" with no rules to support the "it doesn't matter".

There is only one pertinant question to ask.
To quote Cal Hoskins: "If you wish, you can say that any Chaos Space Marines Detachment or Formation is also a Black Legion Detachment or Formation."

This is the rule we are applying. Read what it says. Don't add any meaning or rules to it. Just read it as is and I'm not being condescending here.
It has a single condition. It asks a single very specific question.
Is this formation a csm formation? (or alternatively: is this detachment a csm detachment?, depending on what you're using it on.)

The answer to that question is either yes or no.
Answering it with yes means you may apply the rules as per the supplement rules.

You are being asked what type of construct the warband is. Such a question is unconcerned about the location of it. That has nothing to do with 40k.
That's why it doesn't matter whether or not the warband is part of a detachment.
The question does't care and once you answer it with yes, you are given explicit permission to apply the rules to that same formation.
Once again, the rule tells you to apply the supplement rules to that specific formation.
It doesn't give you a limited scope to work with. It tells you to do it, no ifs or buts.

By focusing on where the formations is, rather than what it is, you are looking for an answer in the wrong place.
Does that answer why "it doesn't matter" ?

doctortom wrote:It states that you can do it to a detachment or a formation. If a detachment is made up of formations, you have permission to do it to a formation in the detachment because you have permission to do it to a formation. You have to show that there is some restriction to revoke the permission to apply it to a formation. That the formation is part of a detachment is relevant only in that there might be something with the detachment that will give reason to prohibit the permission. The mere fact that the formation is also part of a detachment is not reason in and of itself to prohibit being able to apply the supplement to a formation.

Your turn, where does it state that being part of a detachment automatically override the permission to apply the supplement to a formation if the supplement states it may be applied to a detachment or a formation? You already have permission to apply it to a formation in that case, and saying"detachment or formation" is not in and of itself a prohibition on applying it to a formation.

And the Detachment is chosen first, not the Formation. Where can we then assign it to just part of the Detachment? Just because it is a Formation itself? How is that satisfied for the whole detachment itself, then? That is the reason for that question.

I cannot, in good conscience, separate that Formation from being part of the whole detachment.

Cal Hoskins wrote:This is simply incorrect. This is directly from the Chapter Tactics rules: "When choosing an army, you must make a note of which Chapter each unit with the Chapter Tactics special rule is drawn from." If Chapter Tactics were decided only when a group of units were placed inside a Detachment/Formation then you could never have any Iron Hands (or whatever) in an Unbound Army where they are completely outside any Detachment/Formation.

The rules go on to say "All models in the same Detachment or Formation must be drawn from the same Chapter." Without this sentence nothing would prevent Ultramarines and Raven Guard from being in the same Detachment/Formation.

And this second part is what assigns it at the detachment level. I'm sorry you didn't understand what I meant by that.

And it is considering it from the detachment level, not a unit level, just like the supplement does.

Cal Hoskins wrote:The Black Legion supplement says "If you wish, you can say that any Chaos Space Marines Detachment or Formation is also a Black Legion Detachment or Formation." It has no further requirements or limitations.

Chapter Tactics summary: Pick a unit, assign it a Chapter. Don't put different Chapters in the same Detachment/Formation.
Black Legion summary: Pick a Detachment/Formation, assign it Black Legion rules. <See how there is no equivalent rule here?>

No. I don't. I see the same standard being applied here. Just as we don't get to ignore the Chapter Tactics rules for the sake of individual Formations in a Strike Force, why should we get to ignore them for the Crusade?

Cal Hoskins wrote:On another note, I see nothing preventing a single Formation from being both Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter. Not many Formations can meet the Restrictions of both supplements, but a few can.

Because while you can do it for a Chaos Space Marine detachment, you do not have permission to do it for a Crimson Slaughter Chaos Space Marine detachment.

Cal Hoskins wrote:To tackle this from another angle, would you say that the various Deathwatch Kill Team Doctrines (for example, Aquila Doctrine: Non-Vehicle model from this Formation can re-roll any To Wound rolls and armour penetration rolls of 1.) apply to the Leader of a Strategium Command Team?

I am insufficiently aware of Deathwatch Kill Team rules to answer this question. Nor did you provide enough information for me to answer it cold.

Roknar wrote:There is only one pertinant question to ask.
To quote Cal Hoskins: "If you wish, you can say that any Chaos Space Marines Detachment or Formation is also a Black Legion Detachment or Formation."

This is the rule we are applying. Read what it says. Don't add any meaning or rules to it. Just read it as is and I'm not being condescending here.
It has a single condition. It asks a single very specific question.
Is this formation a csm formation? (or alternatively: is this detachment a csm detachment?, depending on what you're using it on.)

The answer to that question is either yes or no.
Answering it with yes means you may apply the rules as per the supplement rules.

You are being asked what type of construct the warband is. Such a question is unconcerned about the location of it. That has nothing to do with 40k.
That's why it doesn't matter whether or not the warband is part of a detachment.
The question does't care and once you answer it with yes, you are given explicit permission to apply the rules to that same formation.
Once again, the rule tells you to apply the supplement rules to that specific formation.
It doesn't give you a limited scope to work with. It tells you to do it, no ifs or buts.

By focusing on where the formations is, rather than what it is, you are looking for an answer in the wrong place.
Does that answer why "it doesn't matter" ?

No, "where" it is in this case is part of defining "what" it is, and that is not the part you are comprehending about my case. It's "what" is the fact that it is part of two detachments, its own and a larger one. While you are focusing on one, you are discounting the other and how it looks like from this perspective.

Can you satisfy the standards and allowed permissions for both aspects of its organization? The answer you have acknowledged is no, you cannot. This means you are operating under a double standard.

 Charistoph wrote:

No, "where" it is in this case is part of defining "what" it is, and that is not the part you are comprehending about my case. It's "what" is the fact that it is part of two detachments, its own and a larger one. While you are focusing on one, you are discounting the other and how it looks like from this perspective.

Can you satisfy the standards and allowed permissions for both aspects of its organization? The answer you have acknowledged is no, you cannot. This means you are operating under a double standard.

A formation isn't part of itself? Not sure what you meant by that.

Otherwise this is exactly what I meant by you focusing on the where. You're getting lost in details when you need to ask yourself if it is a formation.
You also asked "Just because it is a Formation itself? How is that satisfied for the whole detachment itself, then? That is the reason for that question. "

The way the supplement is worded is very specific.
The supplement only asks if it is a formation. That is the ONLY conditional. I can't stress this enough. You can't add additional limitations.
So yes, "just" being a formation is sufficient. By virtue of being a formation, you have already answered the question.
Whatever else the formation may be, as soon as even a part of it is designated a formation, you can give a positive answer to the question the supplement poses.
It is a formation in a detachment, but is it a formation? That's all that matters.
That in turn gives you the permission you need to make the warband a supplement formation.

There is no double standard. Units have no issue to obey supplement as well as vanilla rules. The crusade still consists of formations, supplement or otherwise.
There is no restriction that says the crusade can't have the supplements applied to choice formations.
There is no restriction that says the crusade must consist of equal types of formations.
Everything checks out.

 Roknar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

No, "where" it is in this case is part of defining "what" it is, and that is not the part you are comprehending about my case. It's "what" is the fact that it is part of two detachments, its own and a larger one. While you are focusing on one, you are discounting the other and how it looks like from this perspective.

Can you satisfy the standards and allowed permissions for both aspects of its organization? The answer you have acknowledged is no, you cannot. This means you are operating under a double standard.

A formation isn't part of itself? Not sure what you meant by that.

Probably because I didn't say or imply that. It's pretty easy to not be sure of something that wasn't said.

 Roknar wrote:
Otherwise this is exactly what I meant by you focusing on the where. You're getting lost in details when you need to ask yourself if it is a formation.
You also asked "Just because it is a Formation itself? How is that satisfied for the whole detachment itself, then? That is the reason for that question. "

The "Formation" is the Choice. The "whole detachment" is the larger detachment we are speaking of that the Formation is a Choice in.

 Roknar wrote:
The way the supplement is worded is very specific.
The supplement only asks if it is a formation. That is the ONLY conditional. I can't stress this enough. You can't add additional limitations.
So yes, "just" being a formation is sufficient. By virtue of being a formation, you have already answered the question.
Whatever else the formation may be, as soon as even a part of it is designated a formation, you can give a positive answer to the question the supplement poses.
It is a formation in a detachment, but is it a formation? That's all that matters.
That in turn gives you the permission you need to make the warband a supplement formation.

Now, let's look at it from the perspective of the Crusade.

You have a large detachment. Part of that detachment has had the supplement applied to it. Where is this partial application allowed any more than it is in Chapter Tactics?

Being a Formation alone does not give carte blanche to ignore the larger detachment as if it wasn't even there.

 Roknar wrote:
There is no double standard. Units have no issue to obey supplement as well as vanilla rules. The crusade still consists of formations, supplement or otherwise.
There is no restriction that says the crusade can't have the supplements applied to choice formations.
There is no restriction that says the crusade must consist of equal types of formations.
Everything checks out.

The double standard is that you state it cannot be applied to just part of a detachment, and then you apply it to just part of a detachment.

Look at it from the perspective of the Crusade. Can you fulfill the standards to both detachments at the same time?

 Charistoph wrote:

Cal Hoskins wrote:On another note, I see nothing preventing a single Formation from being both Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter. Not many Formations can meet the Restrictions of both supplements, but a few can.

Because while you can do it for a Chaos Space Marine detachment, you do not have permission to do it for a Crimson Slaughter Chaos Space Marine detachment.

A Crimson Slaughter Chaos Space Marine Detachment is still a Chaos Space Marine Detachment. Do you disagree with this?

 Charistoph wrote:

Cal Hoskins wrote:To tackle this from another angle, would you say that the various Deathwatch Kill Team Doctrines (for example, Aquila Doctrine: Non-Vehicle model from this Formation can re-roll any To Wound rolls and armour penetration rolls of 1.) apply to the Leader of a Strategium Command Team?

I am insufficiently aware of Deathwatch Kill Team rules to answer this question. Nor did you provide enough information for me to answer it cold.

Sorry, here's a link, if you click on the pictures they get big enough to read if you squint. https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/1015

Cal Hoskins wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Cal Hoskins wrote:On another note, I see nothing preventing a single Formation from being both Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter. Not many Formations can meet the Restrictions of both supplements, but a few can.

Because while you can do it for a Chaos Space Marine detachment, you do not have permission to do it for a Crimson Slaughter Chaos Space Marine detachment.

A Crimson Slaughter Chaos Space Marine Detachment is still a Chaos Space Marine Detachment. Do you disagree with this?

I do not disagree with that, but again, we are looking at many different aspects here. It works with just the Chaos Space Marine aspect, but gets blocked by the Crimson Slaughter aspect.

Cal Hoskins wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Cal Hoskins wrote:To tackle this from another angle, would you say that the various Deathwatch Kill Team Doctrines (for example, Aquila Doctrine: Non-Vehicle model from this Formation can re-roll any To Wound rolls and armour penetration rolls of 1.) apply to the Leader of a Strategium Command Team?

I am insufficiently aware of Deathwatch Kill Team rules to answer this question. Nor did you provide enough information for me to answer it cold.

Sorry, here's a link, if you click on the pictures they get big enough to read if you squint. https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/1015

No, it would not, because that "Leader" is not part of the Kill Team. Technically speaking, neither would the Kill Team. unless other rules stated elsewhere specifically state that the Kill Team gets to use its Formation Special Rules, as those units can only belong to one detachment at a time (it should though, GW's been doing this since Strike Force Ultra if not earlier). By taking the Command Team Formation, you are dedicating them to that detachment unless permission is specifically granted elsewhere.

 Charistoph wrote:

Cal Hoskins wrote:
A Crimson Slaughter Chaos Space Marine Detachment is still a Chaos Space Marine Detachment. Do you disagree with this?

I do not disagree with that, but again, we are looking at many different aspects here. It works with just the Chaos Space Marine aspect, but gets blocked by the Crimson Slaughter aspect.

What blocks it? Nothing in the supplement books says they are exclusive. You just pick a CSM Detachment and declare it to get the supplement rules. Then repeat that with the other supplement. Is there any kind of wording anywhere that even implies you can't do both? If Crimson Slaughter CSMs still count for things like Preferred Enemy CSM, why would they not count for the Black Legion rules?

 Charistoph wrote:

Cal Hoskins wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Cal Hoskins wrote:On another note, I see nothing preventing a single Formation from being both Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter. Not many Formations can meet the Restrictions of both supplements, but a few can.

Because while you can do it for a Chaos Space Marine detachment, you do not have permission to do it for a Crimson Slaughter Chaos Space Marine detachment.

A Crimson Slaughter Chaos Space Marine Detachment is still a Chaos Space Marine Detachment. Do you disagree with this?

I do not disagree with that, but again, we are looking at many different aspects here. It works with just the Chaos Space Marine aspect, but gets blocked by the Crimson Slaughter aspect.

This is what I meant by lack of permission is not a restriction. It's the same concept with the crusade detachment.
You are not given permission to apply the black legion rules to a crimson slaughter detachment, correct.
But, and this is important, that lack of permission is not in and of itself a restriction. It does NOT say you may not do that.

Instead you are given permission to apply the BL rules to a csm formation. A CS warband is a CSM formation.
Being a csm formation fulfills the condition the supplement sets and allows you to apply the BL rules.

"If you wish, you can say that any Chaos Space Marines Detachment or Formation is also a Black Legion Detachment or Formation."
"Unless it is is a Crimson Slaughter detachment or formation, you can, if you wish, say that any Chaos Space Marines Detachment or Formation is also a Black Legion Detachment or Formation."

See the difference there? The supplement rules don't give you specific permission to apply the rules to a CS formation. So you don't have permission to do that, true.
But that's not what you're doing at all. You are applying the rules to a csm formation as per the rules written in the supplement.
And not having permission to apply them to a CS formation is not enough to stop that. You need to actively prohibit it.
The rules that allow you to apply the supplement rules are ignorant to the fact that it is also something else. So that fact must be recognized somewhere else to stop the supplement rules from working.

As such, that prohibition does not exist for the crusade detachment. You can follow the supplement rules as written without a hitch.
So unless there is an active restriction that you can't apply the supplement to a formation within a crusade, it is legal. The supplements are blissfully ignorant to the fact that the formation is part of something else.

I am making no declaration at all, when I make no declaration. Excluded middle fallacy, for a start.

Cal Hoskins wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Cal Hoskins wrote:
A Crimson Slaughter Chaos Space Marine Detachment is still a Chaos Space Marine Detachment. Do you disagree with this?

I do not disagree with that, but again, we are looking at many different aspects here. It works with just the Chaos Space Marine aspect, but gets blocked by the Crimson Slaughter aspect.

What blocks it? Nothing in the supplement books says they are exclusive. You just pick a CSM Detachment and declare it to get the supplement rules. Then repeat that with the other supplement. Is there any kind of wording anywhere that even implies you can't do both? If Crimson Slaughter CSMs still count for things like Preferred Enemy CSM, why would they not count for the Black Legion rules?

Because one deals with the Faction the model is from (supplements do not change Faction), while the other is questioning the type of detachment it is in.

But that is just my perspective.

Roknar wrote:This is what I meant by lack of permission is not a restriction. It's the same concept with the crusade detachment.
You are not given permission to apply the black legion rules to a crimson slaughter detachment, correct.
But, and this is important, that lack of permission is not in and of itself a restriction. It does NOT say you may not do that.

Doing things because you do not have a specific restriction against it is falling back on the "it doesn't say I can't" argument. Where does it say you can apply it to part of a detachment or a detachment that has another supplement applied to it?

 Charistoph wrote:

Roknar wrote:This is what I meant by lack of permission is not a restriction. It's the same concept with the crusade detachment.
You are not given permission to apply the black legion rules to a crimson slaughter detachment, correct.
But, and this is important, that lack of permission is not in and of itself a restriction. It does NOT say you may not do that.

Doing things because you do not have a specific restriction against it is falling back on the "it doesn't say I can't" argument. Where does it say you can apply it to part of a detachment or a detachment that has another supplement applied to it?

"It doesn't say you can't" is only half the argument though.
Having neither a restriction nor a permission means not being able to to anything.
This is different. In this case the supplement gives you permission to change a csm formation.
There aren't enough restrictions in place to limit that permission.

I can't declare a lord to use the supplement rules and gain access to it's relics just because it doesn't say I can't. I would need permission to do that.
The opposite is true too. In this case the supplement gives you permission to change a formation. I would need a restriction to prevent that from affecting a formation in a detachment, since a formation in a detachment is still a formation.
Being a different type of formation or being part of another is not enough. The supplement completely bypasses that and the crusade does nothing to prevent that.

The supplement asks if it is a csm formation. In order to prevent a BL supplement to be applied to a CSM formation that also happens to be a CS formation you would need to reflect that distinction that in the question.
Or alternatively have some other rule interfere, such as the mutually exclusive* supplement rules.

* They aren't mutually exclusive at a formation level, it's just that none of the formations offer a mix of units that would allow you to satisfy both rules. If GW were to put out a hypothetical errata that removes the option to have VotLW from warpspmiths, you could suddenly field a BL+CS fist of the gods.

To come back to your question: "Where does it say you can apply it to part of a detachment or a detachment that has another supplement applied to it?"
It doesn't say that anywhere. It also doesn't say you cannot.
There is however, a supplement that says you can apply the rules to a formation.
There isn't anything that says you can't apply that to a part of a detachment or a detachment that has another supplement applied to it.
So the only option left is to do as the supplement rule tells you to.

That leaves you in a state where part of a detachment has been altered, but that itself is not prohibited at a detachment level. And it doesn't cause a conflict on the unit level either.
You are being given permission to do something else, from an unrelated source if that makes more sense.

 Roknar wrote:



The way the supplement is worded is very specific.
The supplement only asks if it is a formation. That is the ONLY conditional. I can't stress this enough. You can't add additional limitations.
So yes, "just" being a formation is sufficient. By virtue of being a formation, you have already answered the question.
Whatever else the formation may be, as soon as even a part of it is designated a formation, you can give a positive answer to the question the supplement poses.
It is a formation in a detachment, but is it a formation? That's all that matters.
That in turn gives you the permission you need to make the warband a supplement formation.

Well, it matters if you're dealing with a CSM detachment. And, really, you're dealing with a Crimson Slaughter Detachment here, which you don't have permission to apply it to. The formation would already exist as a CS formation before you try to apply the Black Legion faction to it. If the detachment were a vanilla CSM detachment I don't see any problem, but it does look like it's a problem if you're trying to change a formation in a detachment that's already defined as another faction.

Of course, it's obvious people's mileage varies on this. Charistoph seems to be on the side of not having two formations with different supplement factions in the same detachment, ever, You and Cal seem to be on the side of letting it happen all the time. I think it's a middle ground where it has to be a vanilla CSM detachment, where the formations aren't automatically given the supplement's faction before you look to apply a different supplement. I'm not convinced any side is going to convince the other on this (though I might be pleasantly surprised).

If I gave the impression that it works on anything other than a CSM formation/Detachment then that wasn't my intent.
In order for any of this to work it needs to be vanilla CSM formation initially.

You can't change the CS formations from the supplements for example.
But if you're dealing with a CSM formation, the supplements allow you to make that formation a CS formation in addition to still being a CSM formation.
So since it is still a CSM formation you can then apply the BL rules to that CSM formation. Which gives you a CS+BL+CSM formation.

"If you wish, you can say that any Chaos Space Marines Detachment or Formation is also a Black Legion Detachment or Formation."
It doesn't specify that it has to be a csm formation only and it doesn't say that it becomes a BL/CS formation exclusively. Pretty pointless in practice but I don't see a problem as per RAW.

 Roknar wrote:
If I gave the impression that it works on anything other than a CSM formation/Detachment then that wasn't my intent.
In order for any of this to work it needs to be vanilla CSM formation initially.

You can't change the CS formations from the supplements for example.
But if you're dealing with a CSM formation, the supplements allow you to make that formation a CS formation in addition to still being a CSM formation.
So since it is still a CSM formation you can then apply the BL rules to that CSM formation. Which gives you a CS+BL+CSM formation.

"If you wish, you can say that any Chaos Space Marines Detachment or Formation is also a Black Legion Detachment or Formation."
It doesn't specify that it has to be a csm formation only and it doesn't say that it becomes a BL/CS formation exclusively. Pretty pointless in practice but I don't see a problem as per RAW.

Okay. The problem I see though is that if you are taking a CS detachment, you have already made the formations in it CS formations before you can do anything else, so you would not be changing a vanilla CSM formation. Even if the CS detachment is using formations that were originally CSM detachments, they would still be CS formations by dint of being part of a CS detachment. At that point I don't think you could change any of those detachments to be a BL detachment any more than you could change a CS specific formation from a supplement. I don't think you can end up with a CS/BL/CSM potpourri formation.

 Charistoph wrote:

Cal Hoskins wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Cal Hoskins wrote:
A Crimson Slaughter Chaos Space Marine Detachment is still a Chaos Space Marine Detachment. Do you disagree with this?

I do not disagree with that, but again, we are looking at many different aspects here. It works with just the Chaos Space Marine aspect, but gets blocked by the Crimson Slaughter aspect.

What blocks it? Nothing in the supplement books says they are exclusive. You just pick a CSM Detachment and declare it to get the supplement rules. Then repeat that with the other supplement. Is there any kind of wording anywhere that even implies you can't do both? If Crimson Slaughter CSMs still count for things like Preferred Enemy CSM, why would they not count for the Black Legion rules?

Because one deals with the Faction the model is from (supplements do not change Faction), while the other is questioning the type of detachment it is in.

But that is just my perspective.

What makes you think that when the rules say "Chaos Space Marines Detachment" they don't mean "Detachment from the Chaos Space Marines Faction"? If it doesn't mean this, what does it mean? Does it mean one thing some times, and another at other times? How is anyone supposed to know?

 Roknar wrote:

* They aren't mutually exclusive at a formation level, it's just that none of the formations offer a mix of units that would allow you to satisfy both rules. If GW were to put out a hypothetical errata that removes the option to have VotLW from warpspmiths, you could suddenly field a BL+CS fist of the gods.

I think a Heldrake Terror Pack or a Trinity of Blood would qualify. Now, I'm not saying there is a whole lot of point in doing that, but it seems legal.

Oh boy lol.
The crusade would be CSM and CS though, not just CS, so the choice formations would inherit both types as well imho. Then it would still work. Not quite sure how applying the supplements on a crusade level would affect the choice formations though.


But yea, any form of just CS or BL wouldn't work. You could apply the BL rules to that same crusade though to end up with a broken mess lol

Charistoph - Suppose the rule instead said "If you wish, you can say that any Chaos Space Marines Detachment or unit is also a Black Legion Detachment or unit." Would you then argue that I cannot include a Black Legion sorcerer and a non-Black Legion CSM squad in the same CAD because the CAD is a Detachment and the rule didn't give me permission for partial Detachments?

Just wanted to make sure. If I take a black legion black crusade detachment. The whole chosen as troops thing doesn't do anything right. I.e. Can I take squads of chosen as the mandatory 2 chaos space marine units

Battlefield roles mean next to nothing in a crusade detachment.
You need one core and one auxiliary formation. that's it. Black Legion or not. There are no mandatory two troop choices in a crusade detachment.

should you be referring to the 2 units of csm in a warband formation, then no. Those are two units of csm, period.