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Hello Dakka,
Me and my friends are going to play a Warhammer 40k campaign, and one of the members is going to play the new Genestealer Cults codex. He used to run Tyranids, and my main tactic was to run up a Land Speeder right next to his gene stealer brood, cook them all up, fire the heavy bolter into any survivors. The sniper scouts focus fire onto his flying hive tyrant (taking advantage of their range, and the possibility of inflicting an AP2 wound, and wounding on 4+), while a Devastator Squad pumps shots downfield at any remaining gene stealer brood (need those heavy bolters and missile launchers) while two tactical squad move up to secure objectives and shoot at anything that gets too close. A level 2 Librarian with Pyromancy joins an assault squad, running about the field causing havoc on enemy units. Eventually, he strikes back, mostly shredding the land speeder and getting uncomfortably close to the tactical squads.
The last survivor is always the hive tyrant, and he brings a Mawloc along.

As this is his mono build, I've grown very efficient at fighting it. However, I'm not too sure how the gene stealer cults play out.

Sitting on my table is a land raider, command squad, terminator assault squad, dreadnought (venerable or normal), chaplain, captain, chapter master and a Stormraven. I'm thinking of switching out some units for a storm raven, as it will be a very efficient mobile attack platform that the cult will struggle to break through. However, not having versed them before, I don't know what to take. Any ideas?

I have fought the cult one time and it was as deathwatch. What I found effective were templates (which the deathwatch have a huge surplus of), fliers and ignore cover. Alpha striking them would be pretty pointless as well.

I think fliers would do well due to the cult being ground based, but watch out for Flyrant allies. Ironclad dreadnought would put the hurt on anything they touch with their flamers plus they would get 2d3 auto hits if you give him dual heavy flamers. Dont forget it also has defensive grenades.

Metal boxes are you friend. Dont stand out in the field or you will die. Dont even think of melee. Sternguard would serve you well. Grav will be worthless.

But the most important advice I can give is not to list tailor too hard. It wont make it fun for anyone if you roll over him especially when he wants to try his brand new army.

Flamers, Heavy Flamers, and TFC, and maybe some meltasto handle Leman Russ and Rock Grinder. Also Salamander Chapter Tactic and their special Decrion type Detachment. Remember that the backbone units of Genestealers Cult are "Glass Cannon". If you get caught in combat by a 20 strong pure strain with Patriarch, or a large blob of Acolyte, you are as good as dead. I don't think even a Wraith Knight can survive that charge. However, when they get "Ignore cover" shots, they are in trouble since they are only T3/T4 with at most 5++ saves. They will die in mass when getting decent fire.

I have a dreadnought, would it be worthwhile taking him? I was thinking of equipping him with a heavy flamer and assault cannon.
Heavy flamer cooks stuff, before the assault cannon shreds through things, and negates any T3s getting FNPs. Would this be worthwhile?

Being GSC myself my biggest threats are flyers and flamers. I even add in an ADL with quad gun if I think there will be flyers. Or as previously mentioned I add a Tyranid cad with dual Flyrants and a pair of OS ripper broods for 530pts it's worth it.

Flaming Marine wrote:
I have a dreadnought, would it be worthwhile taking him? I was thinking of equipping him with a heavy flamer and assault cannon.
Heavy flamer cooks stuff, before the assault cannon shreds through things, and negates any T3s getting FNPs. Would this be worthwhile?

Yes. S3 with rending needs a 6 followed by a 5+ to glance AV12. It'll be one of the few reliable melee units against him.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

But the most important advice I can give is not to list tailor too hard. It wont make it fun for anyone if you roll over him especially when he wants to try his brand new army.

This

PanzerLeader wrote:

Flaming Marine wrote:
I have a dreadnought, would it be worthwhile taking him? I was thinking of equipping him with a heavy flamer and assault cannon.
Heavy flamer cooks stuff, before the assault cannon shreds through things, and negates any T3s getting FNPs. Would this be worthwhile?

Yes. S3 with rending needs a 6 followed by a 5+ to glance AV12. It'll be one of the few reliable melee units against him.

I think GSC assault units are S4 or more. They are just squishy due to T3 (hybrids) and T4 (pure strains)

The acolites (melee guys with rending) are str 4 toughness 3. We need 6 and a 3+ to rend av 12. Still we have a ton of attacks a 40 point acolyte squad of 5 guys has 20 attacks on the charge. Of course if you have a heavy flamer that's an average of 2 dead in overarching. So that's down to 12 attacks so maby one hp on average then you crush 1 or two more in melee. Bigger squads or metamorphs with claws you will need to worry about especially if there is an iconward and/or a primus attached/ within 12". This gives furious charge and zealot making a lot more of these shots stick, not to mention fnp letting the odd guy survive the flamer.

The trusty ol'd double thunderfire and landspeeders.
Fortunately those are in all my lists anyway ;P

Timeshadow wrote:
The acolites (melee guys with rending) are str 4 toughness 3. We need 6 and a 3+ to rend av 12. Still we have a ton of attacks a 40 point acolyte squad of 5 guys has 20 attacks on the charge. Of course if you have a heavy flamer that's an average of 2 dead in overarching. So that's down to 12 attacks so maby one hp on average then you crush 1 or two more in melee. Bigger squads or metamorphs with claws you will need to worry about especially if there is an iconward and/or a primus attached/ within 12". This gives furious charge and zealot making a lot more of these shots stick, not to mention fnp letting the odd guy survive the flamer.

In which I'd recommend going Ironclad instead with the AV13. The goal is to use the dreadnaught to tie up depleted units from the GSC so they can't roll into your infantry unmolested. Its not a big win piece but it can complement a marine approach against GSC MSU (especially if you can match it against neophytes or cult vehicles).

Ways to counter GSC with C:SM ?

Bolters

What about really BIG flamers? like an Inferno cannon from a Malcador Infernus?

How would one of those fair? Obviously the infantry would be cooked but would it be enough to stand up to the rest?

The Cult are great offensively, but they are essentially an army of T3 5+ models.

Any Flamer weapon will likely earn it's points back, by either hitting multiple models or Wall Of Death.

Marines, in general, are going to wound Cult on a 3+ and deny them any save.

Purestrain, with 5++ saves will be a bit harder to kill, and the personalities will have their entire squads as ablative wounds.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but just run regular marines. Bolters and flamers all day long. A few Dreads with autocannons, or assault cannon/HF , a dakka raven, assault marines with flamers, and Las devs for anti armor. Landspeeder Storms with heavy flamers and bolter scouts, scout bikes with astartes grenade launchers and a combi flamer on the sarge.


Might be the most practical, but I'd be excited to be able to run fluff marines with a chance of not sinking the failboat so to speak. That and they would be effective whilst not list tailoring against your buddies first game with GSC. I know a few posters are going to rail hard against this idea, but keep in mind your opponent is not only a glass cannon army, but a CC one as well.


Oh yea, and bring metal boxrs. All the metal boxes. Seriously.

Also, during deployment, If you have TFC or some other long-range shooty units, remember to bubble warp them whenever you can, suggested your screen being around 6 inch from the protected units at all directions and being 6 inch from each other, to deny that 3 inch away deployment in the Cult Ambush. You won't be happy when your TFC get assaulted T1. Then, have your Droppod units carrying flamer/HF as your hammer.

Thanks for the help guys, I will try it out!

Yeah base Marine List is the best for taking on GSC

the current tourney marine lists (all varieties) will have trouble

GodDamUser wrote:
Yeah base Marine List is the best for taking on GSC

the current tourney marine lists (all varieties) will have trouble

Called it. I'm suggesting since it's the GSC players first game, and basic marines have the ranged tools to deal with em, don't be a cheese vendor so both can have fun and the GSC player doesn't get discouraged if he gets crushed by one of the best armies in the game right now.

You can go back to you regularly scheduled seal clibbing.

Yeah base Marine List is the best for taking on GSC

the current tourney marine lists (all varieties) will have trouble

Nope. 'Base Marines' are top table with SM Gladius and DA Lions Blade, and neither of those will have any trouble with GSC.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:
Yeah base Marine List is the best for taking on GSC

the current tourney marine lists (all varieties) will have trouble

Called it. I'm suggesting since it's the GSC players first game, and basic marines have the ranged tools to deal with em, don't be a cheese vendor so both can have fun and the GSC player doesn't get discouraged if he gets crushed by one of the best armies in the game right now.

You can go back to you regularly scheduled seal clibbing.

The problem is that he is a power gamer, and always takes cheese lists. As stated earlier, his previous cheese list (Flyrant, Mawloc, Genestealers) were effective the first time he used them (ended in an utter defeat for me), He always brags about how good his gene stealers and flyrant are, and always taunts (why don't you take a shot at my Flyrant?).
Lots of laughs ensued when I shot it down with snipers, grounded it, concussed it with a grav pistol, then proceeded to turn it into mulch during the assault phase.

Now that my friends are playing the campaign, I really want to curb-stomp/rofl-stomp/seal club him, except my group fears that a rofl-stomp would prompt lots of rage and even more cheese lists...how do I balance between evaporating his list and not making him upset?

GSC is the army that bolters and heavy bolters were made for, and grav spam is useless against them. Thank you GW.

GSC is the army that bolters and heavy bolters were made for, and grav spam is useless against them. Thank you GW.

Any Marine army can spam Grav as well as Bolters.

Centurions have Hurricane Bolters as well as Grav
Bikes have Twin-linked Bolters as well as Grav
Gladius has Grav for specials/heavies with bolter marines and Heavy Bolter Razorbacks.
Skyhammer has Assault Marines as well as Grav Devs.

Not sure why people think Tournament SM lists can't deal with GSC ?

Bartali wrote:

GSC is the army that bolters and heavy bolters were made for, and grav spam is useless against them. Thank you GW.

Any Marine army can spam Grav as well as Bolters.

Centurions have Hurricane Bolters as well as Grav
Bikes have Twin-linked Bolters as well as Grav
Gladius has Grav for specials/heavies with bolter marines and Heavy Bolter Razorbacks.
Skyhammer has Assault Marines as well as Grav Devs.

Not sure why people think Tournament SM lists can't deal with GSC ?

Any marine army can spam grav as well as bolters, but the points on grav will be wasted. You would have been better off spending points on tactical marines. Or frag missiles or something of that nature..

I have no opinion on whether a tournament SM list can deal with GSC.

Alcibiades wrote:

Bartali wrote:

GSC is the army that bolters and heavy bolters were made for, and grav spam is useless against them. Thank you GW.

Any Marine army can spam Grav as well as Bolters.

Centurions have Hurricane Bolters as well as Grav
Bikes have Twin-linked Bolters as well as Grav
Gladius has Grav for specials/heavies with bolter marines and Heavy Bolter Razorbacks.
Skyhammer has Assault Marines as well as Grav Devs.

Not sure why people think Tournament SM lists can't deal with GSC ?

Any marine army can spam grav as well as bolters, but the points on grav will be wasted. You would have been better off spending points on tactical marines. Or frag missiles or something of that nature..

I have no opinion on whether a tournament SM list can deal with GSC.

That is true, if I want to tally against the GSC, I would no hesitate to use 300pts packing one unit of 3 TFC. If they are not destroyed or tied up in combat. It will delete any GSC infantry units in one salvo. However, in Tournament, those 300pts are surely used in "bring more Grav" or that CM smashbane, or the Librarian Conclave.

Flaming Marine wrote:

The problem is that he is a power gamer, and always takes cheese lists. As stated earlier, his previous cheese list (Flyrant, Mawloc, Genestealers) were effective the first time he used them (ended in an utter defeat for me), He always brags about how good his gene stealers and flyrant are, and always taunts (why don't you take a shot at my Flyrant?).
Lots of laughs ensued when I shot it down with snipers, grounded it, concussed it with a grav pistol, then proceeded to turn it into mulch during the assault phase.

Now that my friends are playing the campaign, I really want to curb-stomp/rofl-stomp/seal club him, except my group fears that a rofl-stomp would prompt lots of rage and even more cheese lists...how do I balance between evaporating his list and not making him upset?

wtnind wrote:

Flaming Marine wrote:

Most people wouldn't consider a single Flyrant cheese and almost nobody (pre GSC) would say stealers were cheese (same with Mawlocs).

Problem was, he abused the fact that me and my other Marine friend didn't know the Tyranid rules. He claimed that FMC got a jink save even if they already failed their armour, told us that Mawloc blast was S10 AP1 Large Blast Ignores Cover hits every floor, and that gene stealers could assault after infiltrate.

That formation with the 6 flyers on the board turn 1? No real skyfire right?

Flaming Marine wrote:

wtnind wrote:

Flaming Marine wrote:

Most people wouldn't consider a single Flyrant cheese and almost nobody (pre GSC) would say stealers were cheese (same with Mawlocs).

Problem was, he abused the fact that me and my other Marine friend didn't know the Tyranid rules. He claimed that FMC got a jink save even if they already failed their armour, told us that Mawloc blast was S10 AP1 Large Blast Ignores Cover hits every floor, and that gene stealers could assault after infiltrate.

That's less to do with being a power gamer and more to do with being Tfg.