Rumors of 40k shake up in next edition! (Sigmarification?)

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**EnTyme**

Interesting discovery while messing around on the store page. It seems the Stormraven's page has been updated with most of the rules.

**Vash108**

I am not sure I would like a Movement stat. That would be just one more thing to keep track of.

**Davor**

Vash108 wrote:
I am not sure I would like a Movement stat. That would be just one more thing to keep track of.

I am sorry I don't believe in this. Adding a movement stat is not anymore complicating anything. After all if you can say this unit has this BS, or that unit has that WS and this weapon does this, that war gear does that, adding in movement is not that big a deal like you are implying. So then we should not ever be adding any new codices, any new rules, any new weapons any new war gear, any new psychic powers any new anything.

**Lance845**

Davor wrote:
Vash108 wrote:
I am not sure I would like a Movement stat. That would be just one more thing to keep track of.

I am sorry I don't believe in this. Adding a movement stat is not anymore complicating anything. After all if you can say this unit has this BS, or that unit has that WS and this weapon does this, that war gear does that, adding in movement is not that big a deal like you are implying. So then we should not ever be adding any new codices, any new rules, any new weapons any new war gear, any new psychic powers any new anything.

I like the examples given a few posts ago about nids being 6" marines 4" and so on. It makes a lot of sense.

But, that being said, your highlighting exactly why it's bad. The game already has too many things to keep track of. We don't want to add more, we want to condense and reduce.

**Xenomancers**

movement stat would be great.

**Backspacehacker**

455_PWR wrote:
Ive been playing 40k since 2nd edition... let me say it is a mess now. Formations with free benefits have created massive imbalance. Second, formations, superheavies, fliers, etc, should have stayed in apocalypse. They have diluted the game. Third, the cost of the game. This is what has caused the game to decline. Many of us with large armies can easily stay in the game, but getting new folks to buy in can be a challenge.

I also like aos. However, I don't want to see 40k become aos. The strength and toughness aspect has been around for a log time. If they were to do anything, it would be to go back to a mix of 5th and 6th edition... without formations, fliers, or superheavies.

This pretty much.

Things i would really like to see changed in 40k

Formations cost points to take
Remove weapon skill on weapon skill attack, treat WS as you would with BS skill, 4 hits on 2, 6 hits on 2 reroll hit on 6 ect ect
AP effects armor save not completely negate it, IE every 1 point at or below your armor save is a negative 2 to your roll, IE i have a 2+ you have AP 2, i need to roll a 4+
Better pyker phase. Leadership test, cast the number of spells equal to your mastery
Remove HP go back to 5th ed vehicles, but fix the transport exploitation
Cut down on the rule over writes that rule nonsense

**Verviedi**

EnTyme wrote:
Interesting discovery while messing around on the store page. It seems the Stormraven's page has been updated with most of the rules.

As I said before, that's for a board game.

**EnTyme**

Verviedi wrote:
EnTyme wrote:
Interesting discovery while messing around on the store page. It seems the Stormraven's page has been updated with most of the rules.

As I said before, that's for a board game.

I wasn't aware that Tactical Marines are part of Stormcloud Assautl

**Future War Cultist**

@ Lance845

I've got to say that a movement stat to replace all the various unit definitions and movement based special rules is the best way to go. It's just easier.

**jade_angel**

EnTyme wrote:
Verviedi wrote:
EnTyme wrote:
Interesting discovery while messing around on the store page. It seems the Stormraven's page has been updated with most of the rules.

As I said before, that's for a board game.

I wasn't aware that Tactical Marines are part of Stormcloud Assautl

Maybe I'm dense, but I don't see a dataslate link on the Tactical Marines page there...

**EnTyme**

Check the "play" tab. It's not a dataslate. The (partial) rules are on the actual page.

**jade_angel**

Weird. There's no such tab for me. I wonder if GW is showing different stuff to different browsers? Wouldn't be the first time they've had some hinky stuff with their website.

**EnTyme**

Well I'm browsing from work (slow day), so no choice but to use IE.

**Vash108**

Davor wrote:
Vash108 wrote:
I am not sure I would like a Movement stat. That would be just one more thing to keep track of.

I am sorry I don't believe in this. Adding a movement stat is not anymore complicating anything. After all if you can say this unit has this BS, or that unit has that WS and this weapon does this, that war gear does that, adding in movement is not that big a deal like you are implying. So then we should not ever be adding any new codices, any new rules, any new weapons any new war gear, any new psychic powers any new anything.

I am sorry I don't believe in this. Adding a stat across the board instead of adding a new codex inside an existing rule set is different. If they revamped the entire ruleset and paired down on a lot of movement rules and kept it case by case where you can easily keep up with it like a Unit Stat card like AoS maybe. Also I do not mean EXACTLY like AoS but in a similar fashion that it is easy to look at with just glance.

Making things more complicated is never a good answer.

**Elbows**

So, if you think a Movement stat is somehow more complicated how do you justify the current movement rules?

**ziggurattt**

EnTyme wrote:
Check the "play" tab. It's not a dataslate. The (partial) rules are on the actual page.

I've tried multiple browsers, my mobile phone, and different countries. I can't find a "Play" tab. I don't doubt you, I'm just having trouble duplicating your results.

And I really want to, because if they start putting up rules online, man, that'd be sweet.

EDIT:
From another thread about this: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/705309.page#8960521

**Vash108**

Elbows wrote:
So, if you think a Movement stat is somehow more complicated how do you justify the current movement rules?

I don't. I think they should come up with something new. If they do what to give every different unit a different movement speed, they need to make it easy and readily available such as a stat card.

Something like AoS, Warmahordes, Darkage.

**ziggurattt**

Just put a semi-durable, dry-erase stat card in every unit box. You can track special weapons and wounds, etc.

**Vash108**

Then you would need to do the same for every opponent you fight for your own reference.

If a new player looks at that and I have to explain to them.

me: Well that is a guards men they move 4"

them: What about this guy?

me: Well that is a scout he is a bit better than a Guardsman so he can run 6"

them: so these guys also run 6"?

me: No those are space marines they are like scouts but better and in power armor so they can move 8"!

**EnTyme**

ziggurattt wrote:
EnTyme wrote:
Check the "play" tab. It's not a dataslate. The (partial) rules are on the actual page.

I've tried multiple browsers, my mobile phone, and different countries. I can't find a "Play" tab. I don't doubt you, I'm just having trouble duplicating your results.

And I really want to, because if they start putting up rules online, man, that'd be sweet.

Another user managed to get a screen shot in another thread.

**Future War Cultist**

Vash108 wrote:
Then you would need to do the same for every opponent you fight for your own reference.

If a new player looks at that and I have to explain to them.

me: Well that is a guards men they move 4"

them: What about this guy?

me: Well that is a scout he is a bit better than a Guardsman so he can run 6"

them: so these guys also run 6"?

me: No those are space marines they are like scouts but better and in power armor so they can move 8"!

But you could say that about any stat for any model;

This guardsman is a normal human in flak armour so he's got a 5+ save, but this space marine is a super human in power armour so he's got a 3+ save. A new player would need everything explained to them anyway so I don't really see what the problem is.

**Stormonu**

What is the difference between telling a newbie 'These guys move 4", these 6", these 9" ' and havig to tell them 'These guys are normal, these have Fleet, they have Battle-Focus"

Also, with the proliferation of Bulky, Very Bulky and Flat-out-Fat, they need a Size stat in the game too, methinks.

**_ghost_**

Well. a movement STat is placale in a profile and thus printable on a reference card for each army list . fast at hant and in sight during a game.

And... less rules to keep track of. its better.

compare " ah here its 4 " to " oh it has fleet. hm wait fleet was? ( looking it up in the dex ) " oh thats in the BRB ( openin the BRB ) " ah there.."

you see what i mean? moving stats are simpler. and the ae also lett to keep in mind. a simple value easily readable to a bunch of rules that... just tell you how far you can move

the same with vehicles... when i read the rules i always see " the vehicle can do this at battle speed an this at another speed" and then i have to look up the values vfor these speeds . instead of having the information directly in the rules.

This is also a huge Problem in 40k. The rules are messed up. You always have to make needles pageturs to get to the actual informatioin you need.

**Sluggfest**

I really like the rules as they are now.

I played a bit 10 years ago then started again in 7th edition and invested a lot in it. I think they did a great job and a lot of peoples find interesting ways to keep the hobby alive: Private campaigns, friendly tournaments with some rule tweaking, lot of investment in buildings and a good mat.

Sure it's complex. Sure it take some time to get use to it. But it's part of what make it great too.

**Vash108**

_ghost_ wrote:
Well. a movement STat is placale in a profile and thus printable on a reference card for each army list . fast at hant and in sight during a game.

And... less rules to keep track of. its better.

I would be down for official stat cards that have all the info that would be great

**Elbows**

Movement stats were very simple. Every single human based character had a 4" stat. Tyranids were all 6" except two entries. Eldar were the most diverse, but were overwhelmingly 5". Poor squats were 3"!

Now, knowing GW they would probably muck it up if they brought it back...and arbitrarily make random Space Marines faster than others and similarly daft crap.

**Just Tony**

So basically back to 2nd Ed. we go? With that, I lose all hope in 40K

**Future War Cultist**

Just Tony wrote:
So basically back to 2nd Ed. we go? With that, I lose all hope in 40K

We're only talking about reintroducing a movement stat. We're not talking about bringing back the more convoluted rules from 2nd.

**Mr. CyberPunk**

bob82ca wrote:
I just finished reading a rumor from a source on BOLS that the next edition of 40k is going to have some major changes. They say that it's NOT going to be made like AOS but they are going to do away with Strength and Toughness. And there is some talk about warscrolls. Well that sounds like AOS to me...

What is with this cult that believe that "simpler is better" when it comes to game design? Some of the best games thrive on their complexity (Dungeons and Dragons). Every time you play 40k you learn something new, it's a robust game. IMO the only thing that is over-complicated are rules that make the game sluggish. Soulblaze and random objectives...things like that. Overwatch, going to ground, random charge distance are all fantastic. All of the crazy rules (zealot, rage etc.) are fantastic! And why would you want to get rid of one of the best parts about 40k, list building!

There is some thought going around that 40k is too complicated and that's why GW has declined over the years. The reality is that GW will never be like they were in the 90's, it was a different time. There's nothing wrong with 40k, it's just that your target market has been reduced to ONLY the hardcore nerds. Back in the 90's video games were less of a distraction and so you could sell the idea of a miniature war game to the mainstream. But now the complexity and scale of todays video games compete for the interest of the teenage demographic. So now you're only really selling Warhammer to the O.G.'s that have been playing since they were kids and the new generation of nerds.

This year I took part in the AOS campaign to give it a fair shake. And I have to say the game was just atrocious. Each guy has one or two deathstars that play cat and mouse, while everything else in there army pretends to be significant. Everything I charged with Manfred got deleted, and everything my opponent charged with his dragon thing got deleted... You got archers being attacked in close combat that are still shooting their bows in the shooting phase and attacking in the combat phase...it's a total mess. I'm a little sick and tired of the AOS fanboys being so vocal about how great the game is.

If 40k goes the way of AOS I will probably just be done with it. I will switch my main game to Hobbit probably. The AOS players will love it and they can have it.

Couldn't agree more. I don't want 40k to become an oversimplified game à la AoS (which I feel is not only too simple, but just plain bad, still that's for another topic). It doesn't mean that some of the bloat can't be removed (for example, run should definitely be called before you move your unit so that you only have to move it once per turn) and most importantly, remove the whole mess that is formations where you get tons of special rules that are hard to keep track of ( on top of making it very hard too keep track of which unit is part of which formation). But I don't want my psychik phase to be resolved around a simple ld test like it was in previous edition. It's supposed to be something entirely different so it should get a rule mechanism that make it feel unique (like it does now). Sure at the end of the day, it's only throwing dice and you could basically achieve the same probability of success with a simple ld test, but imo, it only sacrifice gaming experience for simplicity (same thing if you streamline MC and Vehicles).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr Morden wrote:
There is lots wrong with 40k

The rules are bloated and a mess - look at Walkers vs Monsterous Creatures alone.

The Army books are the same - the rules for a single faction are now often spread across codexes, campaign packs, supplements, exclusive packs etc - then multiply by how many allies you use.

The balance is shot to pieces - both in terms of army versus army and internally. There are Power Codexes that tower above the others - Necrons, Tau, Marines and Eldar - that then haev formation bonuses heaped on top to make the other codexes even worse.

Randomness has spread to too mamny areas of both army creation and in game.

All of this needs addressing.

A vehicle and a montrous creature are 2 very different entitie. imo, they need to have different rules to represent this. It would be lame if they behave the same way. The overabundance of codex and supplements makes it very hard to keep up, I agree. Though, if you remove the formations, this issue becomes instantly far less dramatic. At the very least, rules should be printed free on GW website so that I can at least get an idea of what I'm facing without having to spend countless of hours and 1000's of $$. Balance is a mess and definitively the core of the problem with current 40k (and once again, formation only amplify it). Disagree that randomness is such a problem, it makes it more of a game of risk management than pure strategy but that's not necessarily a bad thing (random charging range can make for crucial, game changing decisions and random running range also add a risk element to the movement phase). The problem is once again balance where some randomly allocated psychic power or warlord trait are so much more powerful than others.

**_ghost_**

If itsdone right simple rules lead to highly complex games.

one of the best examples is the Japanese game Go.

also. if i compare 40k with another one i know ( Droppzone Comander) then its obvious that a simpler set of rules is something you should welcome enthusiasticaly