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I've been here bemoaning GeeDubs for years now, particularly during the dark days of 2013. Yet since Kirby got the boot as CEO, I've noticed that GW has gotten a bit better recently.

On the gameplay/codex front, I think they've done a good job introducing new armies. Mechanicus (despite being unnecessarily split up into 2 codex's), Genestealer Cult, and Deathwatch codex's have all been solid releases.

On the modelling front, I think they've also improved in the last year. The new models for stuff like Skitarii and Genestealers fit their themes quite well and get the job done without being overly complicated. It's a far cry from disasters like the Taurox. They're also giving fans what they want with regards to models: minis like Primarchs and plastic sisters. The "made to order" concept has fans quite happy, though of course cautious about the limitations of it.

GW has finally made its presence known on social media in the last year, making them feel like a far less bitter, backwards, and impersonal company. The recent announcement of plastic sisters on facebook is a good example of modern marketing from GW.

On the lore front, GW has finally acceded to fan demands and started progressing the story. Though the actual events have been lackluster, I think there's a sense that gak is finally going down in 999999.M41.

On the literary front, I find "events" filling in the gaps of lore between the Heresy and 999.M41 to be a great idea. I've enjoyed the Beast Arises series, despite it being unnecessarily drawn out (again, in true GW fashion). I hope GW repeats The Beast arises with things like the Nova Terra Interregnum, Occlusiad, Age of Apostasy, and Macharian Heresy.

GW has made several good decisions with its IP in the last few years. Warhammer Total War and Dawn of War 3 being the best examples. 40K comics by a third party are also returning, indicating they're a bit less paranoid about what is published in their name now. GW is also no longer attacking smaller companies with petty copyright claims, instead renaming their own mini's. While this is still juvenile overly paranoid protection of their IP, I think it's a step in the right direction.

Of course they haven't been perfect. I find Age of Sigmar to be awful. The prices are still too high. Thus if GW's gak level was 9,000 in 2013, it would be 8,990 today. Nonetheless, I am cautiously optimistic about the future of Games Workshop

On the gameplay/codex front, I think they've done a good job introducing new armies. Mechanicus (despite being unnecessarily split up into 2 codex's), Genestealer Cult, and Deathwatch codex's have all been solid releases.

Whilst on the flip side both Angels Blade and Kill Team have been lazy re-hashes.

I think a lot of people are waiting on 8th ed 40K before judging 'new' GW.

Better? Yes. But there was also no place to go but up from what they were doing before. However the proof will be in the pudding of how they actually want to fix things and they've shown zero desire so far to actually fix the mess that 40K is in, in fact they seem to want to do the opposite by putting out more and more stuff to increase the bloat and make it that much harder to fix later.

When those warhammer tv videos make a joke about the price they're charging for Kharn the Betrayer I'll agree with you.

Better sure but it's so marginal as to be largely insignificant.

They've still not taken the big steps they must to reverse their decline.

I'd be pretty impressed if they managed to somehow move further down the spiral of poor decisions. As it is, there wasn't much room to go except up and most of the changes are only moving them into line with some bare minimum, 2016 level expectations customers have.

The new releases have been cool, but the rules are still a mess, the prices way too high (or value too low, as the case may be), and we're still waiting on some of the bigger changes to actually happen and be executed properly. When Specialist Games is up and running with most of its old catalog (done correctly), 8th 40k is actually an improvement, and we see timely and effective FAQ/Erratas, I'll start giving GW the thumbs up. Until then, I'm cautiously optimistic, but not willing to part my money their way yet.

They are trying, at least. The execution might take a while to catch up with the effort.

They very much should keep going though, they are so close to getting me to spend money again.

A Facebook page where you can only post positive comments is hardly trying.

They've still no real interest in hearing from customers.

GW won't get any credit until the following things occur:

* the price for a standard sized army (standard being whatever the community's default tournament size is) is roughly $250 or so.

* GW actively starts fixing their very bad balanced points.

* GW's new edition of 40k is more conducive of a static tournament game and less a narrative random dice roll game.

* GW continues to actively support tournaments (this has begun again)

Those are the things that I read pretty much on a regular basis.

GW is getting better, no doubt.

Last week I went into GW Harajuku. First time in a few years I had been to a GW store. A number of things caught my attention.

- The releases of the past few years are of unparalleled quality. Even the packaging looks much better.

- White dwarf was the saddest joke of the sad comedy the was GW...but not anymore. It seems vastly improved from the trash I remember. Its kinda reminiscent of what I remember from around 2000.

- To my astonishment, GW are offering a number of bundles and cheaper options for hobbyists.

 auticus wrote:
GW won't get any credit until the following things occur:

* the price for a standard sized army (standard being whatever the community's default tournament size is) is roughly $250 or so.

* GW actively starts fixing their very bad balanced points.

* GW's new edition of 40k is more conducive of a static tournament game and less a narrative random dice roll game.

* GW continues to actively support tournaments (this has begun again)

Those are the things that I read pretty much on a regular basis.

I'm not sure I would hold out for any of those. GW is obviously not interested in tournament gaming as their primary focus. In the October White Dwarf, they even played a game of 40k without points. And tournament sized games with 30-50 models and large vehicles/monsters for $250 seems unrealistic.

Oh I'm not holding out for those either. But really until any of those things start happening, I wouldn't expect the online community to drop any of its vitriol towards them.

$250 is the current average cost of most systems to get a tournament-ready force, or seems to be anyway about the ceiling of what most people are willing to drop on a tabletop game before they start complaining about price. (its not really about the cost of a box or the cost of a model so much as the sum of the cost of all models needed to play a "standard" game)

I'd argue that the getting started bundles are offering a chance to get battle ready armies, at least for AoS, for relatively cheap. I can build a solid 2000pt Flesh Eater Court army for $369 without any discounts. So around $300 for most people.

Now super competitive armies are probably going to cost more but you can get playable armies for much more reasonable prices than you could a year ago.

But I honestly feel like GW has done an immeasurably better job in the last year than in the last 6 at least.

Expecting prices for a whole 40k army to come down to the same level as a whole army in a skirmish-scale game is simply not reasonable, at all. 40k is never going to be that cheap because it has a much higher model count.

No they have not gotten any better, considering the insane prices, the less than stellar rules and their whole skulls on skulls on wolfes with skulls policy

 AesSedai wrote:
- The releases of the past few years are of unparalleled quality. Even the packaging looks much better.

Sometimes it's worth to have a look outside the bubble.

In regards to the main topic, I've said this thing many times before and some other posters have already said it here so let's keep it simple: rules are still a mess (actually getting more and more bloated with every new supplement) and prices are still insane (actually getting even worse with every new release).

I had this discussion Sunday.

If someone told me we'd get Deathwatch and Genestealer Cult codices this year, I would have been extremely skeptical. Plastic second founding shoulder pads? No way. Plastic Errant Armor? Come on man, your killin' me. Plastic Sisters? Now Im listening and not doubting it.

They've been really solid: Coming out with great NEW codices and packaging models with games (get a discount on models and a boardgame!).

But, they're Gdub and I'm me. Unfortunately, number one, I'm an Ork player. I've seen what they didn't do for Orks recently, but gave the Genestealer Cult. Ok... I was around when 2nd ed was scraped for 3rd. Its not unlike what they did to Fantasy when they introduced AoS. Most people didnt play then, and there was no internet to complain on. It was a big deal. Really. It was. 40k had its AoS already once.

I'm holding my breath about this rumored new 40k edition.

-

Well they killed WHFB just over a year ago, so it's going to take more than 1 year of incremental improvements before they ever see my money again.

Add to that...

- Prices are higher than ever, especially if, like me, you live in Australia (and say a prayer for those poor bastards in New Zealand).

- 40k is still a bloated mess of a game.

- They've reintroduced board games, but they still haven't brought back any specialist games which to me added a lot of flavour to GW's range back in the day. (Necromunda, GorkaMorka, Epic, Mordheim).

So GW have improved, just not in any way that I find significant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
Expecting prices for a whole 40k army to come down to the same level as a whole army in a skirmish-scale game is simply not reasonable, at all. 40k is never going to be that cheap because it has a much higher model count.

Well they could significantly close the gap if they desired, Perry sells human sized plastic infantry for about a third the price as GW sells human sized plastic infantry.

Perry's boxes are similar price or even slightly more expensive, but contain 3 or 4 times as many models, which is far more practical for a game that expects a high model count.

Hell, even the Perry metals are cheaper than GW's plastics

Bolt actions also much cheaper their 1k armies are £85.

People forget 40k is a skirmish game they just lowered the points costs on us, it's still designed for low model counts which is why it's such a fething mess.

I used to bring 30 minis to the store get several games in and leave happy, now I'm bringing 70 odd plus tanks and it takes so long to play if I finish one game before home time it's a rare occasion.

And it's not fun it's a borefest where you just roll dice, gone is the fast paced action of my youth.

Until they fix rules and prices they'll get none of my custom.

I love everything coming out so far.

AoS got significantly better with match points, DW, GSC new flyers. its pretty cool stuff.

the price doesn't really bother me at all.

Definitely have gotten alot better and have made some remarkable changes. (Though for awhile there they did set the bar pretty low. )

I've been a huge fan of GW and warhammer (both genres) since 2008 and their recent actions have only strengthened my loyalty.

I do wish they'd fix 40k as well, though. AoS and old fantasy are far more appealing in terms of rules and playstyles to me.

Better, but still far, far to go.

I like the look of their models, but their games and their prices are still off-putting. I don't think 8th edition is going to fix either, and instead I expect it to exasperate the problem even further.

Part of the problem is GW has put itself in a corner in both areas, and they can't institute the fix for either without gutting 40K and/or themselves; it's a no-win situation for them.

 Korinov wrote:

 AesSedai wrote:
- The releases of the past few years are of unparalleled quality. Even the packaging looks much better.

Sometimes it's worth to have a look outside the bubble.

In regards to the main topic, I've said this thing many times before and some other posters have already said it here so let's keep it simple: rules are still a mess (actually getting more and more bloated with every new supplement) and prices are still insane (actually getting even worse with every new release).

Okay... I'll bite. Which manufacturer offers (highclass) SciFi and (High-Fantasy) in plastic for a game with mini counts in the same area like WH40k or Aos?

Not only have they gotten better, I feel like we've entered a new GW golden age. The minis are amazing, they are listening to their fans, they continue to release boxed sets with huge discounts, concepts of old are making huge comebacks, and AoS has gotten me as excited as I've ever been about the gaming side of the hobby (as opposed to the painting and building, which has always been my main focus). The only thing I'm missing from GW at the moment is a cleaned up, significantly simplified 40k ruleset in the vein of AoS but not as pared down as that. Strange times indeed! At the same time we're spoilt for choice of games with so many high-quality products aimed at different types of gamers (X-Wing, Darklands, Dropfleet, Bolt Action, Song of Blades and Heroes just to mention some standouts). Truly an amazing time, both to be a GW fan and a gamer and hobbyist.

I'll tell you when 40k 8th edition hits.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
I'll tell you when 40k 8th edition hits.

You'll be disappointed if you expect that Superheavies, Fliers, Primarchs should go...

SKR.HH wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
I'll tell you when 40k 8th edition hits.

You'll be disappointed if you expect that Superheavies, Fliers, Primarchs should go...

Well, for me it will never be as bad as the destruction of the Old World so... we'll see.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


Perry's boxes are similar price or even slightly more expensive, but contain 3 or 4 times as many models, which is far more practical for a game that expects a high model count.

Hell, even the Perry metals are cheaper than GW's plastics

Historical minis have always been cheaper than fantasy minis.

GW have been doing good stuff in the last year, I purchased a White Dwarf, which is something I have not done in 10 years.

I just recently got the Silver Tower card pack, I wish GW would shift their printing away from China. Wizards of the Coast can print in Belgium, so I expect GW could do that as well.

 StygianBeach wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


Perry's boxes are similar price or even slightly more expensive, but contain 3 or 4 times as many models, which is far more practical for a game that expects a high model count.

Hell, even the Perry metals are cheaper than GW's plastics

Historical minis have always been cheaper than fantasy minis.

Yeah but it shows if you build a game around large numbers of models, you can sell them more cheaply if you want.

Many fantasy games are skirmish rather than horde so the models are priced higher. A game like Kings of War is based around hordes and so Mantic sell them cheaper (even though I'm not a fan of the aesthetics, they are just injection moulded plastic kits which incur the same production costs as any other).

Miniatures prices should scale with the number of models you are expected to buy to build a force, not necessarily linearly, but most definitely if you only need 10 models to play a game they should be more expensive per model than if you need 100. Most historics revolve around larger numbers of models so it's natural they'd tend to be cheaper per model the same as Kings of War.

GW miniatures are priced as if it were a skirmish game, but they encourage players to buy hordes.