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You show some good points, milord. Kudos, you've altered my opinion slightly, though I still think fantasy was better, and Total War: Warhammer keeps reminding me of it.

 blood ravens addiction wrote:
...though I still think fantasy was better, and Total War: Warhammer keeps reminding me of it.

Yeah tell me about it, every time I see Total War it makes me sad

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Kill Team is still not well designed for interesting small games because it fails to remove minimum unit size limitations, along with some other limitations that it adds in, which makes playing with a combination of the cool toys you can take in an army difficult.

Please stop moving the goal posts or making excuses for your debate. You said there was no alternative to play small point games, I just showed you there is a way to play small points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Lord Kragen, you say "they aren't the same" regarding Stormcast Eternals and Space Marines. I say they are the same. 5+5=10. 7+3=10. 1+5+2+2=10. Basically they are all the same just told differently.

In other words you are going by one aspect that is different. What about they are in most cases faceless look like but are different from humans? Same.

They wear armour that is suppose to be like Knights. Same.

They are made by one person? same.

There are numerous of them and have like god powers compared to humans. Same.

OH and how about when they become these super soldiers, they loose who they once were and are "transformed" into someone new. For a lot of Space Marines they are mind wiped are they not? Same for Stormcast Eternals. Same.


So while the formula you are using in the end they are the same. So telling the same story differently and visually the same makes GW better? If anything how can you say "regurgitating" the same story over again is getting better?

I am not saying Age of Sigmar is bad, I like it. Thing is, to say something is better how can they get better when they are doing the same thing?

One is Knights in Space. The other is Space Knights in a Fantasy setting. Is that really getting better? I say it's lazy, not innovative and show no innovation. That getting better or improving?

I guess it all depends on how you like it. If you love it, then GW has improved. If you like it, it's stalemate. They are the same. If you hate it, they definitely didn't improve at all.

Davor wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Kill Team is still not well designed for interesting small games because it fails to remove minimum unit size limitations, along with some other limitations that it adds in, which makes playing with a combination of the cool toys you can take in an army difficult.

Please stop moving the goal posts or making excuses for your debate. You said there was no alternative to play small point games, I just showed you there is a way to play small points.

I never moved the goalposts, Kill Team failed to meet the standards I set out in my initial posts about what is required for a low point game to work. Not to mention that my initial post was about Fantasy, not 40K. So unless you can find a Fantasy equivalent of Kill Team that was actively supported by GW during 8th edition, then my initial post saying that there were no rules specifically designed for low points fantasy gaming in the Warhammer world is correct.

For years players had been asking for small scale skirmish rules to serve as the gateway game to get new players in. Something that is designed to work starting at around the model count of Mordheim and increasing up until you're approaching the lower end of your standard WHFB army.

Age of Sigmar could have been that game and I think current players would have given it every chance.

If GW had made a game designed for lower points values, say with rules that allowed you to pay points for individual models rather than minimum unit sizes to create your own merry little ragtag warband without having to worry about minimum unit sizes or whatever, and if that game played fast as a small scale skirmish game should then that would not have been a problem.

The problem which leads to people turning down small games is not having a ruleset designed for small games.

Kill Team as a ruleset designed for small games fails because it keeps many of the restrictions inherent in the 40K ruleset, such as minimum unit sizes, which limit the choices of players in constructing their forces. So players are given less actual force organisation choices when building what should be a more personalised small force. Why do I have to pay points for 3 stealth suits in my Kill Team? Why not one or two? Why can a Chaos player not buy a single Raptor or Warp Talon for their Kill Team?

Lord Kragan wrote:

 blood ravens addiction wrote:


Oh, all of these and... Basically the whole of AoS. What were they thinking. They destroyed everything Warhammer was, lore and game wise, and threw in space marines and expected everyone to be pleased. And yet I'm still playing it and I have no clue why....

Yeah, it has gotten a lot of flakk for the destruction. Honestly? Give it half a decade to build up, we still need mores stuff to go by and if the rumors are any indicators we are going to get it within this year or half of the next.

And because the stormcasts couldn't be more different to space marines? XD I mean, look at Josh Reynolds' take on it (which is what sold me into the game, tbh) and draw conclussions

"Well, for starters, Space Marines are chosen as children, tortured by SCIENCE!, and then drafted into an eternity of being monastic murder machines whose sole purpose is to hold up the crumbling foundations of an omnicidal dystopia in the name of a rotting carcass that eats psykers like chiclets. They're emotionally stunted orphans who were brainwashed and weaponized before being unleashed on a galaxy where EVERYTHING is trying to kill them. They never even had a chance to be people before someone turned them into a gun instead.
Stormcast, on the other hand, are dead heroes, chosen for their valour and faith, resurrected and sent to free the Mortal Realms from the abominations currently running the show, on behalf of a benevolent God-King (Though benevolent is seriously up to debate). They're traumatized heroes who had lives, personalities and histories prior to being crammed into primary colored hulkbuster armor and filled full of lightning so that they could go save their descendants from the eldritch horrors of a nightmare dimension. They endure death after death, losing a bit more of their soul each time, in order to prevent anyone else from suffering the fate which befell them.
One group are so far removed from humanity as to be utterly alien. The other group are so human it causes them pain. One group feels little in the way of emotion, the other group feels emotion as strongly as they did before death. One group hates and fears the alien. The other group allies regularly with space-lizards, skeletors and green monster-men. One group is the personification of the grim future in which they live. The other is a thing born of hope.
The similarities are cosmetic: big guys in easily paintable armor sell better than little dudes with fiddly bits. But the context for those cosmetic similarities is quite different. Think of it this way...Space Marines are Batman and Stormcast are Captain America. Both are super-heroes, both wear costumes, both punch bad guys, both save people. But they ain't the same, are they?"

Plus they are more interesting to read than space marines as they ain't demigods but your average joe who's scared to die (mainly because they don't want to lose their identities and scar their friends with the experience of seeing them as nigh-soulless husks... plus the fact that they cannot be re-reforged more than twice.)

Going by statlines, purpose, and everything Davor already pointed out, they basically ARE Space Marines. I realize you are a staunch supporter and jump to AOS's defense readily, but step back two steps and look at the whole picture.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Spoiler:

Davor wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Kill Team is still not well designed for interesting small games because it fails to remove minimum unit size limitations, along with some other limitations that it adds in, which makes playing with a combination of the cool toys you can take in an army difficult.

Please stop moving the goal posts or making excuses for your debate. You said there was no alternative to play small point games, I just showed you there is a way to play small points.

I never moved the goalposts, Kill Team failed to meet the standards I set out in my initial posts about what is required for a low point game to work. Not to mention that my initial post was about Fantasy, not 40K. So unless you can find a Fantasy equivalent of Kill Team that was actively supported by GW during 8th edition, then my initial post saying that there were no rules specifically designed for low points fantasy gaming in the Warhammer world is correct.

For years players had been asking for small scale skirmish rules to serve as the gateway game to get new players in. Something that is designed to work starting at around the model count of Mordheim and increasing up until you're approaching the lower end of your standard WHFB army.

Age of Sigmar could have been that game and I think current players would have given it every chance.

If GW had made a game designed for lower points values, say with rules that allowed you to pay points for individual models rather than minimum unit sizes to create your own merry little ragtag warband without having to worry about minimum unit sizes or whatever, and if that game played fast as a small scale skirmish game should then that would not have been a problem.

The problem which leads to people turning down small games is not having a ruleset designed for small games.

Kill Team as a ruleset designed for small games fails because it keeps many of the restrictions inherent in the 40K ruleset, such as minimum unit sizes, which limit the choices of players in constructing their forces. So players are given less actual force organisation choices when building what should be a more personalised small force. Why do I have to pay points for 3 stealth suits in my Kill Team? Why not one or two? Why can a Chaos player not buy a single Raptor or Warp Talon for their Kill Team?

One group are so far removed from humanity as to be utterly alien. The other group are so human it causes them pain. One group feels little in the way of emotion, the other group feels emotion as strongly as they did before death. One group hates and fears the alien. The other group allies regularly with space-lizards, skeletors and green monster-men. One group is the personification of the grim future in which they live. The other is a thing born of hope.[/i]

You started to lose me here. Which group is which? The Space Marines remember some of their humanity, and some have emotions which they suppress, fighting a never ending war in a dystopian future, where their life essence can be resurrected in another body. They have humanity, sort of.
The Stormcast remember some of their humanity, and and some emotions which fade over time, fighting a never ending war in a dystopian past, where their life essence can be resurrected in another body. They have humanity, sort of, but less of it over time.

There are some cosmetic differences, sure; Space Marines were orphans turned into warrior monks, Stormcast are ressurected heros. But in most other regards they are essentially the same, looking so similar that you could field Stormcast in a Space Marine* army and people wouldn't find them out of place.


* Blood Angels and offshoots, at least.

Herzlos wrote:

One group are so far removed from humanity as to be utterly alien. The other group are so human it causes them pain. One group feels little in the way of emotion, the other group feels emotion as strongly as they did before death. One group hates and fears the alien. The other group allies regularly with space-lizards, skeletors and green monster-men. One group is the personification of the grim future in which they live. The other is a thing born of hope.[/i]

You started to lose me here. Which group is which? The Space Marines remember some of their humanity, and some have emotions which they suppress, fighting a never ending war in a dystopian future, where their life essence can be resurrected in another body. They have humanity, sort of.
The Stormcast remember some of their humanity, and and some emotions which fade over time, fighting a never ending war in a dystopian past, where their life essence can be resurrected in another body. They have humanity, sort of, but less of it over time.

There are some cosmetic differences, sure; Space Marines were orphans turned into warrior monks, Stormcast are ressurected heros. But in most other regards they are essentially the same, looking so similar that you could field Stormcast in a Space Marine* army and people wouldn't find them out of place.


* Blood Angels and offshoots, at least.

Hm, not really. Stormcast remember pretty much everything and have all the humanity they began with. In their downtime some of them even go out and "bother their ancestors" for a laugh according to fluff. They only start to lose their memories when they're killed and resurrected. And even then they only lose a fraction of it each time.

Davor wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Kill Team is still not well designed for interesting small games because it fails to remove minimum unit size limitations, along with some other limitations that it adds in, which makes playing with a combination of the cool toys you can take in an army difficult.

Please stop moving the goal posts or making excuses for your debate. You said there was no alternative to play small point games, I just showed you there is a way to play small points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Lord Kragen, you say "they aren't the same" regarding Stormcast Eternals and Space Marines. I say they are the same. 5+5=10. 7+3=10. 1+5+2+2=10. Basically they are all the same just told differently.

In other words you are going by one aspect that is different. What about they are in most cases faceless look like but are different from humans? Same.

They wear armour that is suppose to be like Knights. Same.

They are made by one person? same.

There are numerous of them and have like god powers compared to humans. Same.

OH and how about when they become these super soldiers, they loose who they once were and are "transformed" into someone new. For a lot of Space Marines they are mind wiped are they not? Same for Stormcast Eternals. Same.


So while the formula you are using in the end they are the same. So telling the same story differently and visually the same makes GW better? If anything how can you say "regurgitating" the same story over again is getting better?

I am not saying Age of Sigmar is bad, I like it. Thing is, to say something is better how can they get better when they are doing the same thing?

One is Knights in Space. The other is Space Knights in a Fantasy setting. Is that really getting better? I say it's lazy, not innovative and show no innovation. That getting better or improving?

I guess it all depends on how you like it. If you love it, then GW has improved. If you like it, it's stalemate. They are the same. If you hate it, they definitely didn't improve at all.

Davor I can't help but facepalm at many of your points.

a)They don't lose the memory when they become super-soldiers, that only happens after being reforged/reincarnated. If having your soul gnawed away in a deathly countdown hard-capped at 2 more attempts equals mindwipe (and there's no third chance), then I have nothing more to say. And they never lost ANY of their memories at the beginning of their life as a stormcast, where the hell does that come that from? (Pre-reincarnation, that is) It's explicidly stated they remember everything (albeit in some cases the memories are a bit murky from the trauma experience in the reforging and the previous death). The only exception is the Celestant-Prime and that's to keep a your-dudes approach. But it's not just remembering. It's caring. A space marine won't give a damn, it was something before he entered into the emperor's service. A stormcast who hasn't lost their memories will treasure those moments and hold them tightly, be the source of their determination and at the same time something that will instill a sense of preservation, least he loses them. Heck, if the persons within those memories are still alive the stormcast will try to spend time with them, because they ARE part of his life. Service to Sigmar isn't their whole being like 99.999999999999999999% of the marines.

feth, they know fear unlike space marines, and they are terrified to die least they lose their memories of the past (yeah, I wonder how many marines are scared of losing their mindwiped memories). A marine will NEVER feel that. The closest they are to space marines would be the rubricae by the time they hit the second reincarnation, all while being extremely different prior to that point.

b) The numerous part is an outright stupid argument to make , they are an army for gods sake. You NEED numbers to go to battle and do an occupation effort. And space marines numerous? Uhm, hello, the average chapter is a thousand-ish members, and will usually send only 2-3 companies worth, stormhosts usually number ten to a dozen times more than a chapter and will usually fight as a single uni. Sometimes they send warrior chambers (which are like 300-500 stormcasts each), but that's not the norm, unlike space marines which are said to never fight as a whole in a single battle. And they are certainly not godlike. They are stronger than humans by several times, but you won't see a single stormcast take down a hundred enemies alone in the lore (and space marine lore once said: a marine is worth a hundred guardsmen and with a good captain he's worth ten times more, then Gaunt's ghosts itself-dunno if it was traitor general or the first one- said that a single chaos space marine squad/a handful of them could annhilate whole regiments/armies). If we use that indicator too, then the brutes from halo which were numerous and were extremely stronger and faster than humans would qualify as space marines. Irrelevant and totally wrong.

Furthermore, they are stated to be pretty much mortals in their day to day life. They need to eat regularly (if they can go a bit more frugal than regular humans, but you still need to feed them thrice a day, unlike astartes). They need to sleep regularly and more or less the same hours as you and me. They certainly get bored (I want to know how many times do space marines go and play dice and other things like that, I can count a few examples of stormcasts making implied statements on them going to gamble when they have the chance), they certainly want to have fun as a general note, not a one-off chance that some members of certain chapters go do.

c) Space marines have females too, don't they? Oh wait, no they don't. They also don't have undead (lord relictors say hi!), elves and dwarves (even orcs, but those are a bit of a rarity). Not the same.

d) Their approach is entirely different. How often you find marines willing to cooperate with greenskins or necrons? You'll see stormcasts willingly cooperate with undead and orcs. A space marine is a psychotic murdermachine pumped on steroids. A stormcast is an average human empowered but the psyche is intact who has a clear goal: take home back and rebuild. A space marine is a zealot (not saying there aren't SE zealots, it's not their shtick), a stormcast would think of using dialogue and even try to redeem by non-killing methods the chaos worshippers. THIS, this point alone should utterly diferentiate them from space marines to anyone's eyes.

e) Do I really have to point out that this is a medieval-esque setting and in their case the armor is "natural"?? Your argument again is like saying knights of WHFB were space marines because they had knightly armor.

f) They weren't made by one person. They were made by grugni and a bunch of smiths. Sigmar just goes and jacks off a couple of lightnings onto them and calls it a day.

Yes, they are totally the same, aren't they?

How about this: they look like Space Marines and they are an elite army.

Besides, since we don't really care for AoS or even WHFB, it makes a lot of sense that the only thing we notice is visuals: wtf are those space marines doing in fantasy ?

Lord Kragan wrote:

Davor wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Kill Team is still not well designed for interesting small games because it fails to remove minimum unit size limitations, along with some other limitations that it adds in, which makes playing with a combination of the cool toys you can take in an army difficult.

Please stop moving the goal posts or making excuses for your debate. You said there was no alternative to play small point games, I just showed you there is a way to play small points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Lord Kragen, you say "they aren't the same" regarding Stormcast Eternals and Space Marines. I say they are the same. 5+5=10. 7+3=10. 1+5+2+2=10. Basically they are all the same just told differently.

In other words you are going by one aspect that is different. What about they are in most cases faceless look like but are different from humans? Same.

They wear armour that is suppose to be like Knights. Same.

They are made by one person? same.

There are numerous of them and have like god powers compared to humans. Same.

OH and how about when they become these super soldiers, they loose who they once were and are "transformed" into someone new. For a lot of Space Marines they are mind wiped are they not? Same for Stormcast Eternals. Same.


So while the formula you are using in the end they are the same. So telling the same story differently and visually the same makes GW better? If anything how can you say "regurgitating" the same story over again is getting better?

I am not saying Age of Sigmar is bad, I like it. Thing is, to say something is better how can they get better when they are doing the same thing?

One is Knights in Space. The other is Space Knights in a Fantasy setting. Is that really getting better? I say it's lazy, not innovative and show no innovation. That getting better or improving?

I guess it all depends on how you like it. If you love it, then GW has improved. If you like it, it's stalemate. They are the same. If you hate it, they definitely didn't improve at all.

Davor I can't help but facepalm at many of your points.

a)They don't lose the memory when they become super-soldiers, that only happens after being reforged/reincarnated. If having your soul gnawed away in a deathly countdown hard-capped at 2 more attempts equals mindwipe (and there's no third chance), then I have nothing more to say. And they never lost ANY of their memories at the beginning of their life as a stormcast, where the hell does that come that from? (Pre-reincarnation, that is) It's explicidly stated they remember everything (albeit in some cases the memories are a bit murky from the trauma experience in the reforging and the previous death). The only exception is the Celestant-Prime and that's to keep a your-dudes approach. But it's not just remembering. It's caring. A space marine won't give a damn, it was something before he entered into the emperor's service. A stormcast who hasn't lost their memories will treasure those moments and hold them tightly, be the source of their determination and at the same time something that will instill a sense of preservation, least he loses them. Heck, if the persons within those memories are still alive the stormcast will try to spend time with them, because they ARE part of his life. Service to Sigmar isn't their whole being like 99.999999999999999999% of the marines.

feth, they know fear unlike space marines, and they are terrified to die least they lose their memories of the past (yeah, I wonder how many marines are scared of losing their mindwiped memories). A marine will NEVER feel that. The closest they are to space marines would be the rubricae by the time they hit the second reincarnation, all while being extremely different prior to that point.

b) The numerous part is an outright stupid argument to make , they are an army for gods sake. You NEED numbers to go to battle and do an occupation effort. And space marines numerous? Uhm, hello, the average chapter is a thousand-ish members, and will usually send only 2-3 companies worth, stormhosts usually number ten to a dozen times more than a chapter and will usually fight as a single uni. Sometimes they send warrior chambers (which are like 300-500 stormcasts each), but that's not the norm, unlike space marines which are said to never fight as a whole in a single battle. And they are certainly not godlike. They are stronger than humans by several times, but you won't see a single stormcast take down a hundred enemies alone in the lore (and space marine lore once said: a marine is worth a hundred guardsmen and with a good captain he's worth ten times more, then Gaunt's ghosts itself-dunno if it was traitor general or the first one- said that a single chaos space marine squad/a handful of them could annhilate whole regiments/armies). If we use that indicator too, then the brutes from halo which were numerous and were extremely stronger and faster than humans would qualify as space marines. Irrelevant and totally wrong.

Furthermore, they are stated to be pretty much mortals in their day to day life. They need to eat regularly (if they can go a bit more frugal than regular humans, but you still need to feed them thrice a day, unlike astartes). They need to sleep regularly and more or less the same hours as you and me. They certainly get bored (I want to know how many times do space marines go and play dice and other things like that, I can count a few examples of stormcasts making implied statements on them going to gamble when they have the chance), they certainly want to have fun as a general note, not a one-off chance that some members of certain chapters go do.

c) Space marines have females too, don't they? Oh wait, no they don't. They also don't have undead (lord relictors say hi!), elves and dwarves (even orcs, but those are a bit of a rarity). Not the same.

d) Their approach is entirely different. How often you find marines willing to cooperate with greenskins or necrons? You'll see stormcasts willingly cooperate with undead and orcs. A space marine is a psychotic murdermachine pumped on steroids. A stormcast is an average human empowered but the psyche is intact who has a clear goal: take home back and rebuild. A space marine is a zealot (not saying there aren't SE zealots, it's not their shtick), a stormcast would think of using dialogue and even try to redeem by non-killing methods the chaos worshippers. THIS, this point alone should utterly diferentiate them from space marines to anyone's eyes.

e) Do I really have to point out that this is a medieval-esque setting and in their case the armor is "natural"?? Your argument again is like saying knights of WHFB were space marines because they had knightly armor.

f) They weren't made by one person. They were made by grugni and a bunch of smiths. Sigmar just goes and jacks off a couple of lightnings onto them and calls it a day.

Yes, they are totally the same, aren't they?

Actually they are pretty much the same, I think we all agree AoS is sifi fantasy at best.

Also marines and sigmarines are pretty much the same.

Elite soldiers marching around the galaxy or stargates svaing humans that where cut off during the dark age check.
Made by the god emperor that you should worship if your a human check
poster boys that shoot lightning from their butt cracks as they fly around check
armour that is so over sized it would just be easier to put wheels on their feet and have a guy push them around. They try and get away with it in 40k with saying it is motorized assisted.
They have chaplins or reflectors or what ever their names are.
The give a younger audience a "oh this guy is me and he changes the world with his awesomess and try to get them to right their own fan fiction"
The have names that no one in the world would ever call a living thing outside 2000BC

morgoth wrote:
How about this: they look like Space Marines and they are an elite army.

Besides, since we don't really care for AoS or even WHFB, it makes a lot of sense that the only thing we notice is visuals: wtf are those space marines doing in fantasy ?

Heck, even the elite army isn't that true with things like Ironjawz (hell, I bring less orcs than my opponents bring stormcasts on a regular basis by almost a 2:1 ratio), Warherds,Everchosen (an 2000pts army of thirteen models is possible and quite viable if you don't go full cheese), Beastclaw raiders, Skryre and Deathlords. I've seen plenty of competitive stormcast and, while not outright so, they tend a bit to be horde of bodies... unless the player goes full stardrake on you, but that's a knight-level model. Yeah, more elite than humans but... the point is sooo superficial.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

OgreChubbs wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:
[
Actually they are pretty much the same, I think we all agree AoS is sifi fantasy at best.

Also marines and sigmarines are pretty much the same.

Elite soldiers marching around the galaxy or stargates svaing humans that where cut off during the dark age check.
Made by the god emperor that you should worship if your a human check
poster boys that shoot lightning from their butt cracks as they fly around check
armour that is so over sized it would just be easier to put wheels on their feet and have a guy push them around. They try and get away with it in 40k with saying it is motorized assisted.
They have chaplins or reflectors or what ever their names are.
The give a younger audience a "oh this guy is me and he changes the world with his awesomess and try to get them to right their own fan fiction"
The have names that no one in the world would ever call a living thing outside 2000BC

Except there's no advanced science in it, everything is said to be involved with magic. Even the steampunk-stuff the dwarves will bring in the new setting is implied to be fueled by magic by some of the rumors.

1) Yes, not gonna deny that, then again it's a bit of a generalization and a 40k space marine isn't really that anymore.
2) Only that they weren't made by sigmar and they don't force you to worship you. Plus there was a whole pantheon and it's almost outright stated that anyone could worship anyone they wanted (so yeah, you could have humans worship gork and mork, and there's still humans worshiping nagash and other servants of him as demi-gods). Furthermore, they don't go around praying to sigmar around, not because they don't believe in him as a god, but because they aren't a monastic order in space, I still have yet to read them doing stormhost-wide prayers like the marines do.
3) Yeah, relictors go giving sermons and monitoring the purity of their soldiers all the time... oh wait, they don't. Also chaplains go and wrestle with death whenever their soldiers die...not really, don't they? if anything they "are" apothecaries and even then they really have a rather different portfolio. Hell, even the castelant which has the portfolio of chaplains (avoid chaos corruption) has a differen job into it as he basically just points his lantern shaped anti-chaos hose and spurts the stream of Sigmar-approved purfying light and calls it a day, no need to make you pray and repent and pull a big-brother on the soldiers, which is what chaplains do.
4) WoW, and Warmahordes do sin a bit of that armor part. Does that mean that mean they are space marines too?
5) Same could happen in the guard, the empire and its knights and every single gakking army in any other game, any single faction in ANY genre. Look this is my awesome and cool vampire lord, Lord Edwyle. Look this is my tomb king Goodatra the Just, he was a great ruler and he'll restore nekhekara to its glory. Look this is Tree-huggael the elven lord, an awesome sniper that will beat chaos back! Literally every single army, guard included: this is Joe, an awesome soldier who's killed thousands of baddies and yada yada. If people want a sue, they'll make it regardless of the story. For hell's sake, I once saw an eshin skaven who my opponent-a thirty years old, mind you- called Kenshiro the Wanderer, a skaven raised by a human mage and who was actually a good guy infiltrating the evil skaven, and helping save people while being BBF with Tirion and an Uber-Swordsman. Special Snoflakes don't give half a crap about armies, your argument is baseless.

6) Jump pack and wings are quite different to say the least, and I still have to see regular marines go and ride dragons. Nevermind that I haven't seen those guns that shoot electricity in the marine range.

Well said, Lord Kragon.

@OgreChubbs,

I think we all agree AoS is sifi fantasy at best. 

I'd say that only in Sigmar's realm of the heavens and the Seraphon using ancient vessels to move through the aether. Though as Lord Kragon said, it's all magic.

Otherwise it's a (mostly) high fantasy setting with heroic and sword & sorcery adventures.

@Davor,

They are made by one person? same. 

Well I guess a technicality but it's Grugni who forged the armor first and then passed it down to seven apprentices(iirc) when he left. So 8 people are needed to make Stormcast.

There are numerous of them and have like god powers compared to humans.

Haha, not sure if they're godly. They have super strength and advanced speed but they're usually outclassed by the likes of vampires and chaos champions.

There are some with magic like the Relictor and knight questor but it's pretty minor.

Just my two cents though. Sorry to nitpick!

[Edit]: Further reading shows me that Lord Kragon already said all this. Sorry, it was really late when I posted.

Baron Klatz wrote:
@Davor,

They are made by one person? same. 

Well I guess a technicality but it's Grugni who forged the armor first and then passed it down to seven apprentices(iirc) when he left. So 8 people are needed to make Stormcast.

Uhm, I guess this also makes it the same, The Emperor didn't actually make the space marines or Primarchs as well since it was his scientists who actually did all the work as well. So another similarity.

Davor wrote:

Baron Klatz wrote:
@Davor,

They are made by one person? same. 

Well I guess a technicality but it's Grugni who forged the armor first and then passed it down to seven apprentices(iirc) when he left. So 8 people are needed to make Stormcast.

Uhm, I guess this also makes it the same, The Emperor didn't actually make the space marines or Primarchs as well since it was his scientists who actually did all the work as well. So another similarity.

Only that the Emperor didn't leave the work to them. Guy was stated to have done the template upon which the scientists worked upon. He DID intervene and was the one to give the first blue-print, the primarch project, and made the foundations for the development of the soldiers. Sigmar on the other hand most likely went: Grugni, grab some brain-cases and brain-storm (uh storm, sounds like a nice name!) a way to get stronger and tougher warriors. NOW!

Hell, the HH books states that all the scientists did was oversee the growth of the test subjects the emperor did and were afraid of what would happen if things went wrong. The emperor did the heavy lifting mainly for the first project, then left the luna scientists the rest for the main project.

Every single source states he's the one behind the Primarch project, I seriously don't know where the hell did you get that idea.

And I'm pretty sure all marine recruits ask for becoming marines, never being forced into it or taken off as tithes, right? Not really, meanwhile stormcasts are offered the choice or outright ask for the power to reap vengeance without it being offered a priori (example the celestial vindicators). There's a fine difference in being whiling (and conscious about the decision) and being forced as a child.

Lord Kragan wrote:

Spoiler:

Davor wrote:

Baron Klatz wrote:
@Davor,

They are made by one person? same. 

Well I guess a technicality but it's Grugni who forged the armor first and then passed it down to seven apprentices(iirc) when he left. So 8 people are needed to make Stormcast.

Uhm, I guess this also makes it the same, The Emperor didn't actually make the space marines or Primarchs as well since it was his scientists who actually did all the work as well. So another similarity.

Only that the Emperor didn't leave the work to them. Guy was stated to have done the template upon which the scientists worked upon. He DID intervene and was the one to give the first blue-print, the primarch project, and made the foundations for the development of the soldiers. Sigmar on the other hand most likely went: Grugni, grab some brain-cases and brain-storm (uh storm, sounds like a nice name!) a way to get stronger and tougher warriors. NOW!

Hell, the HH books states that all the scientists did was oversee the growth of the test subjects the emperor did and were afraid of what would happen if things went wrong. The emperor did the heavy lifting mainly for the first project, then left the luna scientists the rest for the main project.

Every single source states he's the one behind the Primarch project, I seriously don't know where the hell did you get that idea.

And I'm pretty sure all marine recruits ask for becoming marines, never being forced into it or taken off as tithes, right? Not really, meanwhile stormcasts are offered the choice or outright ask for the power to reap vengeance without it being offered a priori (example the celestial vindicators). There's a fine difference in being whiling (and conscious about the decision) and being forced as a child.

Stormcast were inspired by marines does not mean they are exactly the same fluff wise. Just like the later editions of WOC inspired by SM/CSM we all know they are different fluff wise.

 shinros wrote:
Stormcast were inspired by marines does not mean they are exactly the same fluff wise. Just like the later editions of WOC inspired by SM/CSM we all know they are different fluff wise.

Really? We are going to say because they are not 100% EXACT means they are not the same?

Why are people having a hard time with people saying they are the same or the very least are very similar and get upset when someone says they are Fantasy Space Marines?

Davor wrote:

 shinros wrote:
Stormcast were inspired by marines does not mean they are exactly the same fluff wise. Just like the later editions of WOC inspired by SM/CSM we all know they are different fluff wise.

Really? We are going to say because they are not 100% EXACT means they are not the same?

Why are people having a hard time with people saying they are the same or the very least are very similar and get upset when someone says they are Fantasy Space Marines?

I could list off their differences if you want me to Davor. Honestly I am not upset it's clear what's GW goal with stormcast is but fluff wise after reading about them they are different just like warriors of chaos, personally I think they are more relatable than space marines because of it.

 shinros wrote:

Davor wrote:

 shinros wrote:
Stormcast were inspired by marines does not mean they are exactly the same fluff wise. Just like the later editions of WOC inspired by SM/CSM we all know they are different fluff wise.

Really? We are going to say because they are not 100% EXACT means they are not the same?

Why are people having a hard time with people saying they are the same or the very least are very similar and get upset when someone says they are Fantasy Space Marines?

I could list off their differences if you want me to Davor. Honestly I am not upset it's clear what's GW goal with stormcast is but fluff wise after reading about them they are different just like warriors of chaos.

And people can list the similarities. Your point is?

Davor wrote:

 shinros wrote:

Davor wrote:

 shinros wrote:
Stormcast were inspired by marines does not mean they are exactly the same fluff wise. Just like the later editions of WOC inspired by SM/CSM we all know they are different fluff wise.

Really? We are going to say because they are not 100% EXACT means they are not the same?

Why are people having a hard time with people saying they are the same or the very least are very similar and get upset when someone says they are Fantasy Space Marines?

I could list off their differences if you want me to Davor. Honestly I am not upset it's clear what's GW goal with stormcast is but fluff wise after reading about them they are different just like warriors of chaos.

And people can list the similarities. Your point is?

Yes on the surface level in terms of some of their weapons and looks but beyond that? The sheer fact they are both male and female pretty much out right separates their fluff from the get go and they feel fear. There is a lot more than that but hey I don't think I will convince you.

Davor wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

Spoiler:

Davor wrote:

Baron Klatz wrote:
@Davor,

They are made by one person? same. 

Well I guess a technicality but it's Grugni who forged the armor first and then passed it down to seven apprentices(iirc) when he left. So 8 people are needed to make Stormcast.

Uhm, I guess this also makes it the same, The Emperor didn't actually make the space marines or Primarchs as well since it was his scientists who actually did all the work as well. So another similarity.

Only that the Emperor didn't leave the work to them. Guy was stated to have done the template upon which the scientists worked upon. He DID intervene and was the one to give the first blue-print, the primarch project, and made the foundations for the development of the soldiers. Sigmar on the other hand most likely went: Grugni, grab some brain-cases and brain-storm (uh storm, sounds like a nice name!) a way to get stronger and tougher warriors. NOW!

Hell, the HH books states that all the scientists did was oversee the growth of the test subjects the emperor did and were afraid of what would happen if things went wrong. The emperor did the heavy lifting mainly for the first project, then left the luna scientists the rest for the main project.

Every single source states he's the one behind the Primarch project, I seriously don't know where the hell did you get that idea.

And I'm pretty sure all marine recruits ask for becoming marines, never being forced into it or taken off as tithes, right? Not really, meanwhile stormcasts are offered the choice or outright ask for the power to reap vengeance without it being offered a priori (example the celestial vindicators). There's a fine difference in being whiling (and conscious about the decision) and being forced as a child.

Again, why is it so bad people think they are the same? If that is what we think why are you trying to prove us wrong?

You will need to try harder and continue harder if you want to prove me wrong. I will not be changing my mind. Come to think of it, why do you even care if I think Stormcast Eternals are Fantasy Space Marines?

Does my opinion really that matter? I am just a smuck. Why are you spending so much energy, time and emotion into what I think?

Well, it's not really you Davor but the ton of misinformed Old Guard that only take in appearances and off-hand comments to judge AoS.

Lord Kragon is more trying to argue against the tide of "it's just fantasy 40k" and "the setting has nothing in it". The number of people who still think regular people don't exist, Slaneesh is dead and Stormcast are hollow shells is quite depressing.

That's what Lord Kragon is really arguing with, ignorant fan rage. Best of luck to him with that unending battle.

As for the negativity of fantasy marines, I really don't understand it either. It's all just different flavors of bad@ss knights.

Though for whatever reason, it still is seen as a stigma by the Old Guard of AoS being shallow. Even though a (god)king having a army of armored elite is pretty basic stuff.

Davor wrote:
Again, why is it so bad people think they are the same? If that is what we think why are you trying to prove us wrong?

You will need to try harder and continue harder if you want to prove me wrong. I will not be changing my mind. Come to think of it, why do you even care if I think Stormcast Eternals are Fantasy Space Marines?

Does my opinion really that matter? I am just a smuck. Why are you spending so much energy, time and emotion into what I think?

Guess you aren't related with the theory of games, specially the case of the hundred dollars' bet.

Baron Klatz wrote:
Well, it's not really you Davor but the ton of misinformed Old Guard that only take in appearances and off-hand comments to judge AoS.

Lord Kragon is more trying to argue against the tide of "it's just fantasy 40k" and "the setting has nothing in it". The number of people who still think regular people don't exist, Slaneesh is dead and Stormcast are hollow shells is quite depressing.

That's what Lord Kragon is really arguing with, ignorant fan rage. Best of luck to him with that unending battle.

As for the negativity of fantasy marines, I really don't understand it either. It's all just different flavors of bad@ss knights.

Though for whatever reason, it still is seen as a stigma by the Old Guard of AoS being shallow. Even though a (god)king having a army of armored elite is pretty basic stuff.

Yeah well locking the story behind £30 and £45 pound books will do that.

Hopefully the Community site will help to rectify that.

Of course, the beginning of fantasy was pay-locked also. At least people have the option of asking for lore info online, nowadays.

The novels aren't exactly that much, they aport a very important part of the story. Also, considering you don't need to pay 100+ euros in books and cards just to play (20 euros if you want matched play and enjoy the tourney-AOS experience) buying one of the 46 euros books, which DOES include new ways to play (My personal favorite was the orb-infernia scenario: Imagine the trepidation that is facing an army 4 times your size and still win-if barely- thanks tot he scenario. It was extremely trepidating) doesn't sound that bad. And I'm pretty sure no one's tried to pull of a jack-sparrow on Gee Dubs ever. Nope, I legally bought the extremis chamber book.

Lord Kragan wrote:

Davor wrote:
Again, why is it so bad people think they are the same? If that is what we think why are you trying to prove us wrong?

You will need to try harder and continue harder if you want to prove me wrong. I will not be changing my mind. Come to think of it, why do you even care if I think Stormcast Eternals are Fantasy Space Marines?

Does my opinion really that matter? I am just a smuck. Why are you spending so much energy, time and emotion into what I think?

Guess you aren't related with the theory of games, specially the case of the hundred dollars' bet.

Googling that turned up nothing but gambling sites. What is the case of the hundred dollars' bet?

Oh yeah that's how we call the "dollar auction" (I blame the shoddy translator and my teacher who gave me the vice using always a hundred dollar scale):

Idea: the two individuals slowly scalate, all apparently rational. Then they reach a threshold and things get out of hands. It's not rational to continue but tehy still are at it, all while making the whol affair more ridiculous and escalating involvement and effort.