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Just throwing this in here

SCIENCE FANTASY:
A hybrid and subset of speculative fiction describing worlds in which either both magic and science work, science is so sophisticated it simulates magic, or characters possess psychic powers so strong they resemble magic. Eric S. Nylund's A Game Of Universe is a science fantasy of the first type (an assassin who can cast spells travels through space in search of the Holy Grail), as is Sheri S. Tepper's The Family Tree (which includes time travel, genetic engineering, and wizards). Anne McCaffrey's Dragonrider series is a science fantasy of the second and third types (genetic engineering on an alien reptile species has created "dragons" that breathe fire and who communicate telepathically with their riders). Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover series (concerning the history of a planet whose industry is not based on machines and physical labor, but on the potent psychic powers of the inhabitants) are science fantasies of the third type.

So ya age of sigmar is sifi fantasy.

Huh, that's interesting. Thanks for clarifying what you meant by that.

The way you said it earlier made it sound like you thought all if AoS was just lower-scale 40k with ridiculous concepts in it. (That latter part comes from your "colorful" thoughts on the Stormcast.)

Would that make works like Lovecraft "Science Fantasy" since it has otherworldly beings in it that demonstrate psychic abilities and (a type of) genetic engineering through their powers on lesser beings?

Also, I guess Wfb was Science Fiction in a sense since the Old Ones set so much of the planet up through their designs. Though it's a bit unclear if they were technological or purely magical..

OgreChubbs wrote:
Just throwing this in here

SCIENCE FANTASY:
A hybrid and subset of speculative fiction describing worlds in which either both magic and science work, science is so sophisticated it simulates magic, or characters possess psychic powers so strong they resemble magic. Eric S. Nylund's A Game Of Universe is a science fantasy of the first type (an assassin who can cast spells travels through space in search of the Holy Grail), as is Sheri S. Tepper's The Family Tree (which includes time travel, genetic engineering, and wizards). Anne McCaffrey's Dragonrider series is a science fantasy of the second and third types (genetic engineering on an alien reptile species has created "dragons" that breathe fire and who communicate telepathically with their riders). Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover series (concerning the history of a planet whose industry is not based on machines and physical labor, but on the potent psychic powers of the inhabitants) are science fantasies of the third type.

So ya age of sigmar is sifi fantasy.

And WHFB and 40k too. Though I'm not too sure on which parts of AoS would count as the hard part of sci.

hobojebus wrote:

Baron Klatz wrote:
Well, it's not really you Davor but the ton of misinformed Old Guard that only take in appearances and off-hand comments to judge AoS.

Lord Kragon is more trying to argue against the tide of "it's just fantasy 40k" and "the setting has nothing in it". The number of people who still think regular people don't exist, Slaneesh is dead and Stormcast are hollow shells is quite depressing.

That's what Lord Kragon is really arguing with, ignorant fan rage. Best of luck to him with that unending battle.

As for the negativity of fantasy marines, I really don't understand it either. It's all just different flavors of bad@ss knights.

Though for whatever reason, it still is seen as a stigma by the Old Guard of AoS being shallow. Even though a (god)king having a army of armored elite is pretty basic stuff.

Yeah well locking the story behind £30 and £45 pound books will do that.

You can get a lot of the story and information in the 7-10 pound books on the BL website or as been said you can ask free of charge. The campaign books are more "general" fluff the books go into more detail of a specific battle in the campaign book also the campaign books are full of rules, battleplans and formations for each battle. The lord of undeath novel was made out of a short story in a campaign book and two pages from all - gates.

Hell josh reynolds is answering AOS lore questions on ask fm for free.

Most people were put off enough by the free stuff to want to pay anything to see if it's not as bad as they thought.

On release, gw portrayed them as shallow space marine clones, snd that furst impression will last a long time.

But lets be fair; everyone loves space marines

Lord Kragan wrote:
The novels aren't exactly that much, they aport a very important part of the story. Also, considering you don't need to pay 100+ euros in books and cards just to play (20 euros if you want matched play and enjoy the tourney-AOS experience) buying one of the 46 euros books, which DOES include new ways to play (My personal favorite was the orb-infernia scenario: Imagine the trepidation that is facing an army 4 times your size and still win-if barely- thanks tot he scenario. It was extremely trepidating) doesn't sound that bad. And I'm pretty sure no one's tried to pull of a jack-sparrow on Gee Dubs ever. Nope, I legally bought the extremis chamber book.

Compared to what I usually pay for novels online the prices are extortionate, and it makes no logical sense to pay for books about a setting I don't actually care about just to learn a facts about sigmarines.

 shinros wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

Baron Klatz wrote:
Well, it's not really you Davor but the ton of misinformed Old Guard that only take in appearances and off-hand comments to judge AoS.

Lord Kragon is more trying to argue against the tide of "it's just fantasy 40k" and "the setting has nothing in it". The number of people who still think regular people don't exist, Slaneesh is dead and Stormcast are hollow shells is quite depressing.

That's what Lord Kragon is really arguing with, ignorant fan rage. Best of luck to him with that unending battle.

As for the negativity of fantasy marines, I really don't understand it either. It's all just different flavors of bad@ss knights.

Though for whatever reason, it still is seen as a stigma by the Old Guard of AoS being shallow. Even though a (god)king having a army of armored elite is pretty basic stuff.

Yeah well locking the story behind £30 and £45 pound books will do that.

You can get a lot of the story and information in the 7-10 pound books on the BL website or as been said you can ask free of charge. The campaign books are more "general" fluff the books go into more detail of a specific battle in the campaign book also the campaign books are full of rules, battleplans and formations for each battle. The lord of undeath novel was made out of a short story in a campaign book and two pages from all - gates.

Hell josh reynolds is answering AOS lore questions on ask fm for free.

Do you have the link or email address?

Lord Kragan wrote:

 shinros wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

Baron Klatz wrote:
Well, it's not really you Davor but the ton of misinformed Old Guard that only take in appearances and off-hand comments to judge AoS.

Lord Kragon is more trying to argue against the tide of "it's just fantasy 40k" and "the setting has nothing in it". The number of people who still think regular people don't exist, Slaneesh is dead and Stormcast are hollow shells is quite depressing.

That's what Lord Kragon is really arguing with, ignorant fan rage. Best of luck to him with that unending battle.

As for the negativity of fantasy marines, I really don't understand it either. It's all just different flavors of bad@ss knights.

Though for whatever reason, it still is seen as a stigma by the Old Guard of AoS being shallow. Even though a (god)king having a army of armored elite is pretty basic stuff.

Yeah well locking the story behind £30 and £45 pound books will do that.

You can get a lot of the story and information in the 7-10 pound books on the BL website or as been said you can ask free of charge. The campaign books are more "general" fluff the books go into more detail of a specific battle in the campaign book also the campaign books are full of rules, battleplans and formations for each battle. The lord of undeath novel was made out of a short story in a campaign book and two pages from all - gates.

Hell josh reynolds is answering AOS lore questions on ask fm for free.

Do you have the link or email address?

It's through his twitter ask fm.

http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds

 shinros wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 shinros wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

Baron Klatz wrote:
Well, it's not really you Davor but the ton of misinformed Old Guard that only take in appearances and off-hand comments to judge AoS.

Lord Kragon is more trying to argue against the tide of "it's just fantasy 40k" and "the setting has nothing in it". The number of people who still think regular people don't exist, Slaneesh is dead and Stormcast are hollow shells is quite depressing.

That's what Lord Kragon is really arguing with, ignorant fan rage. Best of luck to him with that unending battle.

As for the negativity of fantasy marines, I really don't understand it either. It's all just different flavors of bad@ss knights.

Though for whatever reason, it still is seen as a stigma by the Old Guard of AoS being shallow. Even though a (god)king having a army of armored elite is pretty basic stuff.

Yeah well locking the story behind £30 and £45 pound books will do that.

You can get a lot of the story and information in the 7-10 pound books on the BL website or as been said you can ask free of charge. The campaign books are more "general" fluff the books go into more detail of a specific battle in the campaign book also the campaign books are full of rules, battleplans and formations for each battle. The lord of undeath novel was made out of a short story in a campaign book and two pages from all - gates.

Hell josh reynolds is answering AOS lore questions on ask fm for free.

Do you have the link or email address?

It's through his twitter ask fm.

http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds

Has GW rescinded their statement that what Josh says is non-Canon?

Nope, but considering that he writes his statements in his novels (and those ARE canon) it doesn't really matter. Whatever you see in those pages is highly likely to end up in one of his novels and he's the guy behind the biggest portion of works in the setting so guy's word has quite lot of weight.

 Mangod wrote:

 shinros wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 shinros wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

Baron Klatz wrote:
Well, it's not really you Davor but the ton of misinformed Old Guard that only take in appearances and off-hand comments to judge AoS.

Lord Kragon is more trying to argue against the tide of "it's just fantasy 40k" and "the setting has nothing in it". The number of people who still think regular people don't exist, Slaneesh is dead and Stormcast are hollow shells is quite depressing.

That's what Lord Kragon is really arguing with, ignorant fan rage. Best of luck to him with that unending battle.

As for the negativity of fantasy marines, I really don't understand it either. It's all just different flavors of bad@ss knights.

Though for whatever reason, it still is seen as a stigma by the Old Guard of AoS being shallow. Even though a (god)king having a army of armored elite is pretty basic stuff.

Yeah well locking the story behind £30 and £45 pound books will do that.

You can get a lot of the story and information in the 7-10 pound books on the BL website or as been said you can ask free of charge. The campaign books are more "general" fluff the books go into more detail of a specific battle in the campaign book also the campaign books are full of rules, battleplans and formations for each battle. The lord of undeath novel was made out of a short story in a campaign book and two pages from all - gates.

Hell josh reynolds is answering AOS lore questions on ask fm for free.

Do you have the link or email address?

It's through his twitter ask fm.

http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds

Has GW rescinded their statement that what Josh says is non-Canon?

Well I only ask questions that relate to the novels he writes. Like what does nagash see in mannfred?, How do mortals of shyish worship nagash? and even How do they view vampires compared to other realms? It's still interesting to get a writers perspective on lore and he is writing a book on what people do in the general AOS setting, how their cities work, how a slum looks like in AOS, who patrols the walls etc. How they view the crazy chaos warriors and daemons So I think he knows what he is talking about. I don't ask far "out" questions.

Still as always because I would get a response like this I always state it's his "Opinion" like he says himself still I would trust his perspective on a certain subjects because he written quite a lot of the lore for the setting I enjoy.

So the bully who use to beat us or tease us has grown, he is well dressed now and is very polite and doesn't beat up on us for 2 years now. Has he changed? Now after two years while he doesn't swear, doesn't put down people down now, he just gave you a punch in the gut.

Has he changed? Just punched you in the gut after two years of no abuse but he is well dressed, well mannered. Does that mean he has changed or he is the same?

For all the Facebook chatter, for all the "communication" people think are going on for all the GW has gotten better, until the rules have become better, GW will have never really change. After all getting a punch in the gut clearly reminds you of why GW is bad in the first place. The Sisters of Battle seems to show us GW hasn't changed, and shows no sign of really changing the most important problem. The rules.

Here is another PERFECT opportunity to show GW has changed and they want to give the people what they want, they just show, that GW does the same old, COPY/PASTE and they can't be original or any DESIRE to improve. Yes they have changed on the outside, but on the inside, it's the same old person you have to worry about giving you a punch in the Gut at any moment.

So have they really changed? Sadly now, while I was so excited for their "changes" it seems at it's heart, GW is the same old same old, and I really don't want to wait another 6 months to see if the actual changes will be or not.

Model sold out instantly, GW don't care Bro. Just hand the money over and smile.

I actually think GW is trying to improve the rules, but just doesn't have the expertise and mindset to do a good job of it. Take AoS; hreat idea, terrible execution.

Davor wrote:
So the bully who use to beat us or tease us has grown, he is well dressed now and is very polite and doesn't beat up on us for 2 years now. Has he changed? Now after two years while he doesn't swear, doesn't put down people down now, he just gave you a punch in the gut.

Has he changed? Just punched you in the gut after two years of no abuse but he is well dressed, well mannered. Does that mean he has changed or he is the same?

For all the Facebook chatter, for all the "communication" people think are going on for all the GW has gotten better, until the rules have become better, GW will have never really change. After all getting a punch in the gut clearly reminds you of why GW is bad in the first place. The Sisters of Battle seems to show us GW hasn't changed, and shows no sign of really changing the most important problem. The rules.

Here is another PERFECT opportunity to show GW has changed and they want to give the people what they want, they just show, that GW does the same old, COPY/PASTE and they can't be original or any DESIRE to improve. Yes they have changed on the outside, but on the inside, it's the same old person you have to worry about giving you a punch in the Gut at any moment.

So have they really changed? Sadly now, while I was so excited for their "changes" it seems at it's heart, GW is the same old same old, and I really don't want to wait another 6 months to see if the actual changes will be or not.

Companies don't do all this social media out of the good of their heart it's about money. GW is doing this for money but now they are actually being smart about it. The bundles, Getting input to improve a product for the consumer, bringing back certain armies etc.

As soon as GW stop all the social media stuff is when I will stop giving them my money since I feel it's a hobby and to improve and bring in new blood to the hobby the company needs to interact with the community which is what GW is doing. Hell Duncan's videos are to sell paints but it's still useful to the community if they want to know how to paint a certain thing.

I think the fluff has definitely gotten worse in the last year, for me personally anyway.

I just could not get into the AoS stuff at all, it seems miles away from the old fantasy stuff, there seems to be so much random stuff explained with " its magic ".
I was never a massive fan of the old fantasy setting that much either, but it was streets ahead of this stuff story wise.

The 40k fluff seems to have gone off the rails a bit for me too with all this Primarch coming back malarky, I can understand the traitor lads coming back to kick off but the Loyalist ones showing up again just really does not do it for me at all.
Eventually theres not going to be that much to leave to the imagination with all the mystery, intrigue and unknown coming to light and for me these are the things that the background as built upon.

Maybe I am reading too much into it or maybe im just averse to change ! but thankfully, I am still quite liking the HH stuff and there are occasional 40k releases that are coming good, regardless of the fluff, such as the stealers and the mechanicus.

What GW made right is the BB release.
New teams in plastic, awesome look, and new pitches, die and whatnot.
In AoS, GW have seemed to lose pace. Where are the Aelf?
In 40k, the situation is not satisfactory. New chaos releases but no new codices. Just some formations which are semi useful.

 Rayvon wrote:
I think the fluff has definitely gotten worse in the last year, for me personally anyway.

I just could not get into the AoS stuff at all, it seems miles away from the old fantasy stuff, there seems to be so much random stuff explained with " its magic ".
I was never a massive fan of the old fantasy setting that much either, but it was streets ahead of this stuff story wise.

Oh yes... oh god, it was SOOOOOO bad the first works. Like, I can't seriously stop thinking about how much some sucked balls so bad.

But in AoS defence not everything isn't explained by magic. Mawkrushas shouldn't be able to fly but they can't, not because of magic but because the laws of physics are afraid of pissing them off. That and that orc aren't idiots, just utterly ignorant.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wuestenfux wrote:
What GW made right is the BB release.
New teams in plastic, awesome look, and new pitches, die and whatnot.
In AoS, GW have seemed to lose pace. Where are the Aelf?
In 40k, the situation is not satisfactory. New chaos releases but no new codices. Just some formations which are semi useful.

Elves are getting screentime next year, considering that All-Gates says they are up to something HUGE (ie: the chaos forces in their realms have gone silent) and they are getting a starter of sorts in the form of the battle of the dawnspire.

I actually like the new aos fluff quite a lot. The best way to describe it is as apocalyptic fiction. The apocalypse in this case being the coming of chaos. The heroes in these books are all fighting to reclaim what is lost, while realising that this is ultimately futile.There is a strong sense of melancholia running through both the slyvaneth and the fyreslayers book.
What is interesting now, with how the first campaign has gone, is that they now have the opportunity to tell the story of the building of a new civilisation. That is actually pretty unique in fantasy fiction.
It was a shame the the first couple of books were not very good. I think they put people off, but the books have come a long way since then.

 shinros wrote:


Yes on the surface level in terms of some of their weapons and looks but beyond that? The sheer fact they are both male and female pretty much out right separates their fluff from the get go and they feel fear. There is a lot more than that but hey I don't think I will convince you.

Space Marines *feel* fear alright, they just don't *know* fear.
Something bout their cognitive abilities I suppose...

 wuestenfux wrote:
What GW made right is the BB release.
New teams in plastic, awesome look, and new pitches, die and whatnot.

A positive so far, but still with some odd choices in the initial wave - no faction booster for Orcs & Humans to fill out the roster; the Skaven box also being 12 players rather than a full team; no Big Guys or Star Players released yet (not even a re-release of old sculpts); the BB referee figures being a one month limited run from Forge World; etc.

Don't get me wrong, the core box set is great - I assembled the Orcs from it yesterday - but there are elements about the release that have me nervous at present.

That, and if they were going to mess with the pitch size, why not go the whole hog to 40mm squares, even if you stick with 32mm bases for most players?

 Dysartes wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
What GW made right is the BB release.
New teams in plastic, awesome look, and new pitches, die and whatnot.

A positive so far, but still with some odd choices in the initial wave - no faction booster for Orcs & Humans to fill out the roster; the Skaven box also being 12 players rather than a full team; no Big Guys or Star Players released yet (not even a re-release of old sculpts); the BB referee figures being a one month limited run from Forge World; etc.

Don't get me wrong, the core box set is great - I assembled the Orcs from it yesterday - but there are elements about the release that have me nervous at present.

That, and if they were going to mess with the pitch size, why not go the whole hog to 40mm squares, even if you stick with 32mm bases for most players?

Its a good start, not more.
Expansions are necessary for full 16 player rosters including star players and filling out the teams.
For Orks, you get 4 Blitzers and 4 Black Orks instead of the resp. 2 in the box.
Not sure if they release 0-1 choices like Trolls or Ogres.

Lord Kragan wrote:

Oh yes... oh god, it was SOOOOOO bad the first works. Like, I can't seriously stop thinking about how much some sucked balls so bad.

And that's the problem; you only get one chance to make a first impression and GW screwed it up.

Mawkrushas shouldn't be able to fly but they can't, not because of magic but because the laws of physics are afraid of pissing them off..

... Seriously, is that a thing? Things can fly because gravity is scared of them?

How is that not "magic"?

Herzlos wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

Oh yes... oh god, it was SOOOOOO bad the first works. Like, I can't seriously stop thinking about how much some sucked balls so bad.

And that's the problem; you only get one chance to make a first impression and GW screwed it up.

Mawkrushas shouldn't be able to fly but they can't, not because of magic but because the laws of physics are afraid of pissing them off..

... Seriously, is that a thing? Things can fly because gravity is scared of them?

How is that not "magic"?

By the same fact that orks can make their stuff work. You just don't want to prove them wrong.

I can kind of get behind the idea that are too stupid to realize that stuff shouldn't work and getting away with it, or that they genuinely believe that red makes things go faster. But that stuff can actually fly because gravity is scared of it is just... awful.

If it was more that they found/created beasts and have no idea how they can fly but just go with it, I could handle that. Or even magic is better.

The scale alone makes me not really care about the stakes in AoS. Expanding the Chaos wastes over most of the WH world would have been okay. Space for floating cities and stuff and near unlimited space, considering how Chaos can distort reality (even if we don't have as much "warp"stuff as 40k happining in WHFB. Advanced timeline,still manageable. If tvose ruined citie and lost people have their roots insomething I care about they'd have an impact when fought over in WD pictures, artwork, stories and my own table. Now they're as interesting as random movie ruins made from styrofoam and grey paint, maybe pretty to look at, useful as cover but nothing that feels worth the blood shed over it.

GW as a whole is starting to get me back, though. Last year it was a box of Skitarii and Ghouls to make arco-flaggrlelants and an AoS starter to test the game while getting Khorne stuff at the same time, but this year ST Overkill, SC, Gorechosen, Prospero, ugh, as well as several boxes of stuff to convert Kill Teams (HoR rules, though) or just build cool stuff. Now X mas sees THREE battleforces under our trees! I guess it's a mix of excitement over armies like AdMech and GSC coming out, KS burnout, the pound making imports affordable and GW bundles with cheaper Pound (stop going up, though!) breaking the price barrier from strictly unreasonable to "this is what it should've costed to begin with".

If they ever put out good rules for their main games again (Aos is okay for a light skirmish but I won't use it for real armies, 40k is a mess I won't try to get back into) they might actually see me as someone who plays and builds armies again instead of small hyper-customised warbands and KTs. As cool as Blood Warriors with Tartaros lower legs and Termi pads look used as true-scale Berzetkers they won't be able to bring back my friends and relatives that want to plunk down their nids, GK, Orks etc and play an entertaining match in a reasonable timeframe.

Herzlos wrote:
I can kind of get behind the idea that are too stupid to realize that stuff shouldn't work and getting away with it, or that they genuinely believe that red makes things go faster. But that stuff can actually fly because gravity is scared of it is just... awful.

Yep, agree. Don't get the difference means don't get the difference between good and bad writing.

You guys are taking it out of context and way too seriously.

They are even capable of a semblance of flight with their stubby wings, thought it has been suggested that this is more the result of gravity not wanting to mess with them.

It matches the tone of the rest of the writing in the book.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
You guys are taking it out of context and way too seriously.

They are even capable of a semblance of flight with their stubby wings, thought it has been suggested that this is more the result of gravity not wanting to mess with them.

It matches the tone of the rest of the writing in the book.

Yea that was an element of humour more than anything, there is a lot of that and I was not too keen if I am honest, not that im a miserable sod, just did not do much for me.

A friend of mine reckons that the overall humour surrounding AoS, the game and the books, has been toned down recently and was encouraging me to give the more recent books a go, as it happens.

They are even capable of a semblance of flight with their stubby wings, thought it has been suggested that this is more the result of gravity not wanting to mess with them.

That really doesn't read well, but I can't place why. I can accept that it's a joke and not a real explanation which fits with orcs.