So, can we agree that GW has gotten better in the last year?

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**Davor**

I am smoke and mirrors because in the end the changes we want the most, price points for individual kits and clearly written, concise well written rules, balanced codices and fair points we don't have and is getting worse.

So when I say smoke and mirrors, "it's look here, we have oooooooooooooooooooo social media. Look and listen how great everything is, even though we haven't fixed the rules at all and the game can still play horrible if that is what you thought before."

"Lookie over here at these great values here". Buy these and save money, but don't look there what you really want but don't want to pay for.

Look I give GW excellent credit here. They made people spend so much money, me included without fixing anything that was really broken or the issues we stopped buying in the first place.

**SKR.HH**

No. Change YOU want. I'm very happy with current development and obviously there are others as well.

But you now what? I'll place you on my ignore list and we don't have to discuss with each other anymore.

**Bottle**

-

**-Loki-**

morgoth wrote:
Dysartes wrote:
morgoth wrote:
I'm sure our friends at "GW is Evil inc." will discard that as Smoke and Mirrors. After all it does nothing to fix the prices (unlike Christmas bundles or start playing) and nothing to fix the rules (unlike the 16 fething pages of BRB FAQ).

While the Start playing (or whatever they're called) boxes are good, the Christmas bundles were a, restricted to too few factions; b, restricted in volume to non-GW LGS' (at best three per box per store, from what I heard); and c, just restricted in volume overall.

Make some equivalent bundles - even if not quite as good value - available as a second-stage starting point to a faction, as a core part of the product line, then we'll talk.

As to providing some degree of tournament coverage and support, that is a good thing. Especially if seeing what is happening at those events exposes GW to the sort of degenerate combos that tend to make up top-end tournament lists, to illustrate balance problems in the games.

Couldn't you buy those Christmas bundles online ?

Some silly people like to support their local FLGS with purchases so they stay open.

**Ruin**

timetowaste85 wrote:
Davor wrote:
SKR.HH wrote:

Please point me to ANY game where you can get all and any of the models you want cheaper? Privateer Press, X-Wing, FOW? Please, please point me in that direction. Because it's hypocrite that you expect GW to do so and NONE of the others is doing so either. But as morgoth already pointed out: "GW is evil inc".

No GW is not the evil INC. So not sure what that is all about. But it's one of their issues. So you are deflecting me from not answering or changing what is talked about by from other companies doing the same thing eh? Well as others have told me, that is apples to oranges. On a per mini bases, in a lot of cases GW still costs more. On a total, GW just blows the other companies out of the water on how much you need to spend to play a game.

But then again why are you making it out as if this is the first time ever someone mentions that the prices GW charges is not an issue. I am sure I am not alone in saying GW charges way to much. I have read about this in a few different threads today about how people wish GW charged less or didn't charge so much for what they are asking for. So I am not alone. I am not sure why you are making it out that this is a non issue and trying to embarrass me. This is an issue to a lot of people.

But let's get back to your point. I bought X-wing for about $60 Canadian dollars and started playing right away. I can't do that with 40K. If we are going to compare Games Workshop with Privateer Press, on equal point games each you still have to pay more for 40K over Warmahordes. I can buy a $60 box of PP minis and start playing right away. I can't do that with 40K. PP even gives the rules in the box on how to play. I can't do that with 40K. I can pick any faction and start playing for $60. Can't do that with 40K. I can get the rules for free with PP. Can't do that for 40K.

Funny how PP is asking what $60 for their "stater or value" sets and GW is asking $100 for their same sets.

Where are the free rules on the net for 40K?

So what was that about price? PP is more expensive or as expensive as 40K? Thank you very much again for making me correct and proving my point again. There is no hypocrite here at all.

As much as I enjoy all 3 games you've mentioned, you're giving too much credit to WM/H. You can get ONE side of a starter army for that $60. X-Wing and GW both give you two sides. To get a 2 player starter set from PP would be $120 by your example. X-Wing gives the cheapest starter set, but you also only get 3 ships. Best monetary value for your buck is still a GW starter. Of course, you have to like what you get. The best value in the world is worthless if you hate what you have.

Um, the WMH two player boxes are a thing for $90 RRP.

**timetowaste85**

I was going with his $60 starter set example in Canada. It was one sided. I know they have a full sized set as well. But it wasn't the one he was addressing. Fair though; their $90 sets are better value than 2 $60 sets.

**Davor**

Ruin wrote:[Um, the WMH two player boxes are a thing for $90 RRP.

Totally forgot about that. I was talking about the single factions. But still the two player boxsets, PP is still cheaper than what GW is asking for by what $30 or $40? Even if you buy 2 single start sets for Warmahordes it's still cheaper than what GW is asking for a two player starter set.

**Azreal13**

The Guild Ball starter contains two full size teams, both of which can compete outside of just starter on starter games, plus a full size pitch, plus all tokens and other ancillary bits and pieces for the full game for £50.

Either team can be to a full tournament roster for about another £20-30.

SC boxes or no, GW still get beaten up in the "cost to start" stakes or the "cost to compete."

**Dysartes**

Davor wrote:
I can pick any faction and start playing for $60.

At the risk of encouraging the White Knight Squad, Davor, I feel I need to raise a point of order - well, three of them, as exceptions to your rule.

Convergence, Mercs and Minions did not get a Mk 3 starter, and I don't believe Minions have had a starter in any of the three editions (Mercs had two in Mk1, and Convergence had one upon Mk2 release).

**Jehan-reznor**

I think they are turning it around on the releases, but not on the prices, yes one miniature from Kingdom death cost as much as a single miniature from GW, except that GW has the company infrastructure for producing for years, so they should be more price competitive, also i am interested in the new Celistine, but it will only be available in a boxed set with 2 other characters?

**Mymearan**

Azreal13 wrote:
The Guild Ball starter contains two full size teams, both of which can compete outside of just starter on starter games, plus a full size pitch, plus all tokens and other ancillary bits and pieces for the full game for £50.

Either team can be to a full tournament roster for about another £20-30.

SC boxes or no, GW still get beaten up in the "cost to start" stakes or the "cost to compete."

Why are you comparing a sports game with 12 models to AoS/40k start collecting boxes? Or did you leave out a Blood Bowl comparison you were going to make?

**Ruin**

Mymearan wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:
The Guild Ball starter contains two full size teams, both of which can compete outside of just starter on starter games, plus a full size pitch, plus all tokens and other ancillary bits and pieces for the full game for £50.

Either team can be to a full tournament roster for about another £20-30.

SC boxes or no, GW still get beaten up in the "cost to start" stakes or the "cost to compete."

Why are you comparing a sports game with 12 models to AoS/40k start collecting boxes? Or did you leave out a Blood Bowl comparison you were going to make?

Because they're both wargames?

Go ahead and compare it to uranium mining or destroying faberge eggs for a living, as this is where this tract is going, (again) right?

**morgoth**

SKR.HH wrote:
No. Change YOU want. I'm very happy with current development and obviously there are others as well.

But you now what? I'll place you on my ignore list and we don't have to discuss with each other anymore.

I can't fathom why I didn't do it earlier... I've done it several times in the past with other posters who repeat the same stuff over and over without listening to any argument.... I guess I'm getting old.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jehan-reznor wrote:
I think they are turning it around on the releases, but not on the prices, yes one miniature from Kingdom death cost as much as a single miniature from GW, except that GW has the company infrastructure for producing for years, so they should be more price competitive, also i am interested in the new Celistine, but it will only be available in a boxed set with 2 other characters?

Celestine will be available alone, but that boxed set is incredible value for Inquisition players.

I don't understand why you would want to compare the prices offered by the market leader in high quality toy soldiers, with some guys who made one kickstarter which may or may not be barely profitable for marketing purposes ...

Also, they're mostly selling pinups miniatures aren't they ?

Either way, I find the comparison ridiculous, and the idea that GW should sell their stuff for less just because they're a bigger company is mind-boggling.

How about you give me money because you seem to have more than some ?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ruin wrote:
Mymearan wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:
The Guild Ball starter contains two full size teams, both of which can compete outside of just starter on starter games, plus a full size pitch, plus all tokens and other ancillary bits and pieces for the full game for £50.

Either team can be to a full tournament roster for about another £20-30.

SC boxes or no, GW still get beaten up in the "cost to start" stakes or the "cost to compete."

Why are you comparing a sports game with 12 models to AoS/40k start collecting boxes? Or did you leave out a Blood Bowl comparison you were going to make?

Because they're both wargames?

Go ahead and compare it to uranium mining or destroying faberge eggs for a living, as this is where this tract is going, (again) right?

Then I must say, they're both ridiculously expensive compared to Risk...

**Bottle**

-

**Gimgamgoo**

Interesting article...

http://markitwrite.com/fanboy-wars-the-psychology-of-brand-loyalty/

**Mymearan**

Ruin wrote:
Mymearan wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:
The Guild Ball starter contains two full size teams, both of which can compete outside of just starter on starter games, plus a full size pitch, plus all tokens and other ancillary bits and pieces for the full game for £50.

Either team can be to a full tournament roster for about another £20-30.

SC boxes or no, GW still get beaten up in the "cost to start" stakes or the "cost to compete."

Why are you comparing a sports game with 12 models to AoS/40k start collecting boxes? Or did you leave out a Blood Bowl comparison you were going to make?

Because they're both wargames?

Go ahead and compare it to uranium mining or destroying faberge eggs for a living, as this is where this tract is going, (again) right?

I honestly have no idea what you're saying with that last bit, but I don't think anyone thinks a 40k army should be cheaper than a 12-miniature starter set for a sports game with PVC miniatures (essentially a board game in a box).

**Lansirill**

-Loki- wrote:
morgoth wrote:
Dysartes wrote:
morgoth wrote:
I'm sure our friends at "GW is Evil inc." will discard that as Smoke and Mirrors. After all it does nothing to fix the prices (unlike Christmas bundles or start playing) and nothing to fix the rules (unlike the 16 fething pages of BRB FAQ).

While the Start playing (or whatever they're called) boxes are good, the Christmas bundles were a, restricted to too few factions; b, restricted in volume to non-GW LGS' (at best three per box per store, from what I heard); and c, just restricted in volume overall.

Make some equivalent bundles - even if not quite as good value - available as a second-stage starting point to a faction, as a core part of the product line, then we'll talk.

As to providing some degree of tournament coverage and support, that is a good thing. Especially if seeing what is happening at those events exposes GW to the sort of degenerate combos that tend to make up top-end tournament lists, to illustrate balance problems in the games.

Couldn't you buy those Christmas bundles online ?

Some silly people like to support their local FLGS with purchases so they stay open.

Then buy the stuff at full price and support your friendly local even more.

**Ruin**

Lansirill wrote:
-Loki- wrote:
morgoth wrote:
Dysartes wrote:
morgoth wrote:
I'm sure our friends at "GW is Evil inc." will discard that as Smoke and Mirrors. After all it does nothing to fix the prices (unlike Christmas bundles or start playing) and nothing to fix the rules (unlike the 16 fething pages of BRB FAQ).

While the Start playing (or whatever they're called) boxes are good, the Christmas bundles were a, restricted to too few factions; b, restricted in volume to non-GW LGS' (at best three per box per store, from what I heard); and c, just restricted in volume overall.

Make some equivalent bundles - even if not quite as good value - available as a second-stage starting point to a faction, as a core part of the product line, then we'll talk.

As to providing some degree of tournament coverage and support, that is a good thing. Especially if seeing what is happening at those events exposes GW to the sort of degenerate combos that tend to make up top-end tournament lists, to illustrate balance problems in the games.

Couldn't you buy those Christmas bundles online ?

Some silly people like to support their local FLGS with purchases so they stay open.

Then buy the stuff at full price and support your friendly local even more.

Hi Poe, how's that law working out for you?

**Davor**

Dysartes wrote:
Davor wrote:
I can pick any faction and start playing for $60.

At the risk of encouraging the White Knight Squad, Davor, I feel I need to raise a point of order - well, three of them, as exceptions to your rule.

Convergence, Mercs and Minions did not get a Mk 3 starter, and I don't believe Minions have had a starter in any of the three editions (Mercs had two in Mk1, and Convergence had one upon Mk2 release).

I stand corrected. Most armies then.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So has GW gotten better? Dark Angel, Lord of War Azreal is what 200+ points. Now with the Trimuative ( I know I spelt it wrong) is what 200 points for Cawl? So I take it Azreal is better than Call because he costs more points? Yeah right. GW is actually getting worse with rules because the balance is not there at all.

**loki old fart**

I'm with the smoke an mirrors people. They know that the game is broken. But every time they produce a model they break it further.
Look at the rules for cawl or celestine.

http://imgur.com/a/vKWv1

**Frozocrone**

As a business their customer interaction has certainly been better, bringing back fan favourites and engaging with the community now.

I'm still a little apprehensive. You're still paying premium prices for their product where competitors offer more (as in a completed army) for less. There's also a sense of favoritism within factions and while that's perfectly fine, it shouldn't influence the rules, or the new releases.

But they've certainly caught my attention having left 40k six months ago.

**Lansirill**

Ruin wrote:
Lansirill wrote:
-Loki- wrote:
morgoth wrote:
Dysartes wrote:
morgoth wrote:
I'm sure our friends at "GW is Evil inc." will discard that as Smoke and Mirrors. After all it does nothing to fix the prices (unlike Christmas bundles or start playing) and nothing to fix the rules (unlike the 16 fething pages of BRB FAQ).

While the Start playing (or whatever they're called) boxes are good, the Christmas bundles were a, restricted to too few factions; b, restricted in volume to non-GW LGS' (at best three per box per store, from what I heard); and c, just restricted in volume overall.

Make some equivalent bundles - even if not quite as good value - available as a second-stage starting point to a faction, as a core part of the product line, then we'll talk.

As to providing some degree of tournament coverage and support, that is a good thing. Especially if seeing what is happening at those events exposes GW to the sort of degenerate combos that tend to make up top-end tournament lists, to illustrate balance problems in the games.

Couldn't you buy those Christmas bundles online ?

Some silly people like to support their local FLGS with purchases so they stay open.

Then buy the stuff at full price and support your friendly local even more.

Hi Poe, how's that law working out for you?

What is this poe law? On the crapper so it's a bit of a hassle to Google it, and you seem to think is pretty awesome.

**Henry**

Poe's law is when someone puts forward an argument where, because of what has been said before, it is impossible to tell whether the argument is an honest argument to be taken at face value or if it is supposed to be satire that reflects other peoples rediculous beliefs.

Basically are you honestly saying that if people want to support their FLGS they should accept the added expense, or are you poking fun at those who would say that?

The other alternative is that this is straight forward sarcasm meant to mock those that say they want to support their FLGS while ignoring the fact those discounts they're getting pissy about not getting would take money directly out of the hands of the FLGS they so want to support.

**Dysartes**

Lansirill wrote:
Then buy the stuff at full price and support your friendly local even more.

That's what I was trying to do with a pre-order, only for the cap to cause problems and GW to give my LGS the run-around as to whether they'd be able to get the one extra they needed to cover my order.

By the time a straight answer was received, they were "No longer available" on the GW website.

Which, when you consider the only exclusive bit in the box was a piece of paper is ludicrous - I'd've been happy if all the sprues came in white boxes, for example, but no...

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Quick word on buying from FLGS.

Pay where you play.

If your local FLGS is where you do your gaming, or even some of your gaming, I'd say you're beholden to support that business, whether or not it discounts - not everyone can afford such tempting treats.

If you have a local FLGS, but you don't game there and/or the owner is a bit of a pain/rude, then very much less so.

Same goes for local GW stores - use it, or lose it. Possibly a bit preachy so apologies, but the only time I don't order through my local GW (only gaming store for miles around) is when I'm after something limited edition, like those Dice or Cards etc - simply because I stand a better chance of getting my order in on time to be fulfilled by doing so from home. That way I don't need to line up at the till to pay for my order.

**Backspacehacker**

Paying full price at FLGS?

What sort of hornswaggling are you gettting?! Every FLGS i shop at sells GW products at 20% off MSRP.

**auticus**

I know a few FLGS that do not offer discounts at all. In my city, there were five gaming stores and only one offered a discount.

**Azreal13**

Bottle wrote:]

Lol. Is Guildball a "wargame"? I think Mymearan wanted to compare it to Bloodbowl rather than 40k/AoS which seems reasonable as the games share many similarities.

For what it is worth, I think the Guildball minis are absolutely beautiful and the starter set is a good price. I also think Bloodbowl is very well priced (although I would like to have seen the starter set be a little cheaper, extra teams retailing at £20 is incredible).

But then, I think it's silly to compare the price of a "starter box" or a "tournament sized force" as it leaves us comparing starter sets with 3 miniatures, sports games with a dozen and GW with 50 models or so.

No, it isn't. We're comparing the "cost to start" vs "the cost to compete" not "how many models do you get?"

It is absolutely irrelevant to a player starting a game if they get a million models for tuppence hapenny if they need to spend hundreds on materials to get started and hundreds more to compete.

As to you "it's more like BB" comment, I can only assume you've got zero knowledge of GB, saw it uses a ball and decided they must be the same. BB is a board game that's as much about random as it is about strategy (because it's a Jervis game after all) but that's ok because it's silly and it suits the vibe of the game. GB has more in common with WMH, structurally, and more closely resembles skirmish games like Malifaux or Infinity in terms of scope, it's essentially a wargame in the context of a sport, which just serves to open up avenues of play beyond hitting each other.

Mymearan wrote:
Ruin wrote:
Mymearan wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:
The Guild Ball starter contains two full size teams, both of which can compete outside of just starter on starter games, plus a full size pitch, plus all tokens and other ancillary bits and pieces for the full game for £50.

Either team can be to a full tournament roster for about another £20-30.

SC boxes or no, GW still get beaten up in the "cost to start" stakes or the "cost to compete."

Why are you comparing a sports game with 12 models to AoS/40k start collecting boxes? Or did you leave out a Blood Bowl comparison you were going to make?

Because they're both wargames?

Go ahead and compare it to uranium mining or destroying faberge eggs for a living, as this is where this tract is going, (again) right?

I honestly have no idea what you're saying with that last bit, but I don't think anyone thinks a 40k army should be cheaper than a 12-miniature starter set for a sports game with PVC miniatures (essentially a board game in a box).

You're making the "GW isn't expensive compared to collecting vinitage sports cars" argument but simply trying to narrow the scope of the argument so it doesn't sound so ridiculous. There's little point trying to argue the relative value of components when the broader discussion is about the cost of owning and playing games.

**Lord Kragan**

loki old fart wrote:
I'm with the smoke an mirrors people. They know that the game is broken. But every time they produce a model they break it further.
Look at the rules for cawl or celestine.

http://imgur.com/a/vKWv1

Celestine gets good rules for a change. She's been impaled by abaddon the despoiler, give her a break.

**jreilly89**

loki old fart wrote:
I'm with the smoke an mirrors people. They know that the game is broken. But every time they produce a model they break it further.
Look at the rules for cawl or celestine.

http://imgur.com/a/vKWv1

Eh, 200 points for that is I'd argue reasonable. Besides, Celestine and her squad are all T3, so can be ID'ed by Scatter Lasers, and Cawl really only has a 6" move and a 12" gun. Strong, but slow and not terribly scary outside his threat range. I think a standard Eldar list or one of the new Traitor Legions could take them.

The real point is how strong the new formations will be.