Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

As the title suggests, I''m looking to start up an Ancient Greek army, but aside from a vague notion of period and force, I've no idea how to begin. The period and force I've chosen is the Spartan Army around the time of the 1st and 2nd Messenian Wars, right up to the end of the Greco-Persian Wars - which is the perfect period to satiate my craving for Corinthian Helms and the odd Bronze Cuirass! With that in mind on to the questions:

1. Which Manufacturer? For years now, I've had my eye on the Steve Saleh sculpted Spartans sold by Gorgon-Studios. However, as they are based in the US (and I in GB), shipping is by no means cheap. So, I looked to Wargames Foundry for their Steve Saleh sculpted Athenians - which again are very nice and will proxy in very well as archaic Spartans. However, at £12 for 8 figures, they don't compare (Price-wise) favourably to the likes of the plastic Victrix or Warlord Games hoplites (At £20 for 48 figures). So I guess my question is, do the Wargames Foundry hoplites match the Victrix or Warlord hoplites well enough to mix them together - or will I need to bite the bullet on one or the other? Similarly, are there any other brands, metal or plastic that match up well?

2. Which rules? This, I gather, is quite a contentious question, so I realise everybody has personal favourites and no one game fits all scenarios. That said, as a painter and not a gamer, this will be my first attempt at actually playing a Wargame (Rather than just painting the armies) - so I'm looking for something rather simple, but fun. Ideally, the scenario I have in mind is one in which a small Spartan force is making a raid on a Messinian village or vice-versa. So, I gather rules for a small skirmish game would be best - Say 20-40 figures for each side. Having no clue about rules, I have no idea where to start. I'm not partcularly fussed on whether it's the traditional Phalanx on Phalanx engagement as I think I would prefer something more fluid and fast paced.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

It sounds like you are mostly interested in 28mm. is that correct?

Oh, I forgot to mention that - yeah, 28mm. TBH, since posting this this afternoon, I've settled with Victrix, but I'm still wanting to find some way to incorporate some of Saleh's stuff if I can.

Well, there is still the question of games. It sounds like you are talking relatively small scale games of raiding more than mass battle. Is that correct?

Aye. As I said, I'm utterly clueless as to where to start. Basically, I just wanted something that I can pick up once in a while, play a few casual games with some relatives over holidays and the like and not really have to get too in depth with (Unlike 40k, which is quite involved). For me, the attraction of the hobby has always been collecting and painting, but I just figured that I'd like to maybe play a game now and then.

Rules wise I'm not aware of any specific ancient skirmish rules, but you might find Lion Rampant from Osprey suitable. It's a very popular and light ruleset for medieval 'large skirmish' games (Typically 30-50 models per side) and has been modified for various periods both by fans on the author's forum (http://duxrampant.yuku.com/forums/88/Lion-Rampant-Period-Variants-amp/Lion-Rampant-Period-Variants-amp#.V_4Wd8m7pcV) and in various wargaming magazines. Wargames Illustrated did a Napoleonics version while Wargame Soldiers & Strategy has done Punic Wars and Biblical chariot versions, from memory.

Best of all, its inexpensive - only £12 at full price, and commonly available for less.

Lion Rampant would be a good basis, you could also look at En Garde! which would require almost no conversion for small 6-12 model skirmish/raids.

Saga also has some various conversions for various Greek factions.

@pgmason - Thanks, I'll definitely look into that. I suppose it doesn't really matter whether it's medieval or ancient greek because the core mechanics and rules will apply to any figure.

I wonder whether one of the Song of Blades and Heroes versions would be suitable? (Of Gods and Mortals, perhaps? just leave the gods out http://www.ganeshagames.net/product_info.php?cPath=1_45&products_id=218 )

Or fiddling with Saga?

Ah - I had looked at Of Gods and Mortals, but I kinda dismissed it immediately due to the Gods bit . Having no experience of wargames, I'm not sure I'd be up to re-writing to fit it straight off . That said, maybe when I get more familiar with gaming I can get round to it. Saga sounds more likely - but I have no idea of the numbers involved. If it's on the scale of warbands, then I'm certainly interested. Again, it's not so hard to simply put hoplites in place of vikings. Thanks for the suggestions

I am thinking of getting myself a Greekish Kings of War Historical army, to play against some of my mates who are putting together more traditional Kings of War armies.

I am also curious about options for models, particularly cheap options that don't look terrible.

@Slaanesh-Devotee - Well, I've got a couple of sprues of Victrix Macedonian Hypaspists on the way, so when they get here, I'll post some pics if you'd like. If they're anything like my Victrix British Infantry, then I should imagine they'll be quite nice. Just out of curiosity, what period Greek army are you thinking about doing?

I haven't narrowed down my thoughts. Probably whatever era gives me the most interesting options and effective army in the game at the moment. I will likely be leaning more ont he mythological side, as my interest is more from that direction, so possibly some myth based allies also.

I was leaning more towards historical (Even though it's Greek Myths that got me interested in the period initially). Any heroes in particular?

I was also leaning towards Lion Rampant (Dragon Rampant) as the rules set you would want for what you were looking for.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
Ah - I had looked at Of Gods and Mortals, but I kinda dismissed it immediately due to the Gods bit . Having no experience of wargames, I'm not sure I'd be up to re-writing to fit it straight off . That said, maybe when I get more familiar with gaming I can get round to it. Saga sounds more likely - but I have no idea of the numbers involved. If it's on the scale of warbands, then I'm certainly interested. Again, it's not so hard to simply put hoplites in place of vikings. Thanks for the suggestions

Saga is warband scale. See the following:

http://toomuchlead.blogspot.com/2013/03/saga-epic-greek-battleboards.html
http://studiotomahawk.freeforums.org/greek-legends-first-battle-t5821.html
http://roughwotr.blogspot.com/2012/01/saga-trojan-war.html
http://studiotomahawk.freeforums.org/trojan-war-t336.html
http://warpooch.blogspot.com/2012/03/saga-trojan-war-teaching-odysseus.html

Game are 4-6 points, 1 point is 4 elites/hearthguard, 8 warriors, 12 levy/skirmishers. In this case, talking Sparta, hearthguard would be bodyguard/elites/spartans, warriors would be average hoplites/allied city state hoplites/helots under Brasidias, levy are helots or allied skirmishers. For Athenians, hearthguard could be cavalry or wealth hoplites, warriors are citizen hoplites, levy are Rhodian slingers or Cretan Archers.

I'm working on Athenians/Argonauts and Spartans. I'd like to build up a Colchian force with Aeetes as the warlord, Talos as a hearthguard unit, harpies as the other hearthguard, skeletons as warriors and Stymphalian birds as warriors.

@Maniac_nmt - I took a look through those links and SAGA definitely seems to fit the bill. Similarly, it seems to be for just the right amount of minis - roughly 40 a side. Thanks for the info - much obliged.

If I were going by the Achillies vs Odysseus example, but giving it a Spartan twist, would I be looking at something like this?:

Spartans (41)

Spartan King (Anaxander)
4x Hippeis (Bronze Armour)
12 x Spartiate Hoplites (Linothorax/Bronze Armour)
12 x Periokoi Hoplites (Linothorax/Unarmoured)
12x Slingers/Peltasts/Archers

Messenians (41)

Messenian King (Aristomenes)
4x Hippeis (Bronze Armour)
12xMessenian Hoplites (Linothorax/Bronze Armour)
12xHelot Freedmen (Hoplites - Linothorax/Unarmoured)
12x Helot Freedmen (Slingers/Peltasts/Archers)

Does that sound about right?

 Warpig1815 wrote:
@Maniac_nmt - I took a look through those links and SAGA definitely seems to fit the bill. Similarly, it seems to be for just the right amount of minis - roughly 40 a side. Thanks for the info - much obliged.

If I were going by the Achillies vs Odysseus example, but giving it a Spartan twist, would I be looking at something like this?:

Spartans (41)

Spartan King (Anaxander)
4x Hippeis (Bronze Armour)
12 x Spartiate Hoplites (Linothorax/Bronze Armour)
12 x Periokoi Hoplites (Linothorax/Unarmoured)
12x Slingers/Peltasts/Archers

Messenians (41)

Messenian King (Aristomenes)
4x Hippeis (Bronze Armour)
12xMessenian Hoplites (Linothorax/Bronze Armour)
12xHelot Freedmen (Hoplites - Linothorax/Unarmoured)
12x Helot Freedmen (Slingers/Peltasts/Archers)

Does that sound about right?

So, you would likely do:

Spartan King (Anaxander)
4x Hippeis (Bronze Armour)
8 x Spartiate Hoplites (Linothorax/Bronze Armour)
8 x Periokoi Hoplites (Linothorax/Unarmoured)
12x Slingers/Peltasts/Archers

Messenians (41)

Messenian King (Aristomenes)
4x Hippeis (Bronze Armour)
8xMessenian Hoplites (Linothorax/Bronze Armour)
8xHelot Freedmen (Hoplites - Linothorax/Unarmoured)
12x Helot Freedmen (Slingers/Peltasts/Archers)

That would be 4 points a side, with a mix of units. Hearthguard and Warriors generate the dice you use to activate units or abilities on the battle board, levy do not. You could go with your original 12 man units though, and make it 5 points a side. You can split up units and merge them to make units up to 12 men strong.

In essence, you would have 1 unit hearthguard, 3 units of warriors, split one up and make two (reduces dice but increases killy/surviving power), and a unit of levy. It is quite common for Saxon players to do this, as an example.

Lion Rampant uses similar unit sizes from what I understand, I think their units are 12 infantry or 6 cavalry per unit.

Some units I've completed:

Rhodian Slinger Mercenary unit of 8 slingers:


Hearthguard in linothorax (Calais, Zetes, Peleus, and Polyduces):


Warriors in linothorax:

Well, your revisions work well enough for me - they're still roughly around 30-40 a side and a nice balance. I think I recall reading in your links that SAGA can do up to 6 points, so I'm sure I can have a fiddle around to come up with something that I'm comfortable with. If Lion Rampant also uses the same numbers, at a later date I can dip into that and give it a go.

On a different note - I really like the look of your Greeks - especially the shield designs, they're excellent. Here's a few of mine. I've still got to repaint the others, but the one with the white shield is almost ready to go (Well, I'm still a bit undecided on the shiny bronze versus the dulled bronze that often seems popular.):



I swear they look better IRL...

This might help you out. The Victrix greeks will be closer in size to most of the Foundry greeks. http://psychosispc-themadhouseworkshop.blogspot.com/search/label/Greeks

Nice hoplites.

Victrix are bigger than Warlord, and probably closer to WGF in size. Speaking of the WGF Numidians are a killer set of generic figures. Perfect for archers, slingers, or peltasts/light hoplites.