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JNAProductions wrote:Edit: And why can't they? Following the logical progression, they would need to roll 7s to wound, so +1 to that would be 6s. It makes sense.

If you look at the chart, there's no 7+ on the to-wound table. If you have an S4 weapon that you're using against a T7 creature, you don't actually roll to wound because you can't wound.

Sure, you can roll a die for the lols. But that's not a game mechanic.

At any rate, I don't see the BS2 overwatch thing as a problem. Compared to the actually OP overwatch shenanigans (here's looking at the Tau and Dark Angels), BS2 overwatch seems pretty tame, doesn't it?

...

Dark Angels are the ones with BS 2 Overwatch currently.

And you can wound T7 with S4.

Do you not know the rules?

 Traditio wrote:

JNAProductions wrote:Edit: And why can't they? Following the logical progression, they would need to roll 7s to wound, so +1 to that would be 6s. It makes sense.

If you look at the chart, there's no 7+ on the to-wound table. If you have an S4 weapon that you're using against a T7 creature, you don't actually roll to wound because you can't wound.

Sure, you can roll a die for the lols. But that's not a game mechanic.

At any rate, I don't see the BS2 overwatch thing as a problem. Compared to the actually OP overwatch shenanigans (here's looking at the Tau and Dark Angels), BS2 overwatch seems pretty tame, doesn't it?

except you now made dark angels even better at over watching.

Dark angles ALL have grim resloves meaning i over watch at BS 2, with your system its gets a +1 which means im over watching at BS 3. if i take a battle demi company, i get to over watch at BS 4. If i take a lions blade strike force i get to overwatch at BS 5, better then my normal shooting.

So sure, thanks for making my overwatching army even better, and infact, it now is better for me to HOPE i get charged.

 JNAProductions wrote:
...

Dark Angels are the ones with BS 2 Overwatch currently.

And you can wound T7 with S4.

Do you not know the rules?

No, tradito does not. Multiple times he's started threads complaining about problems with rules that actually weren't a problem if had read the rules

This thread has gotten hilarious to read.

Traditio, do you not see that everyone has a problem with every one of your fleshed out ideas?

If there is any vitriol coming at your ideas it's because you seem to ignore every single argument against them. People present you with examples, logical arguments, even proof via algebraic equations that show how your ideas are indisputably worse then the game is now.

You blow it all off and just tell them they don't understand. I don't wish their frustration with you on them. But damn is it entertaining to watch reasonable people try to argue with a wall. Sorry JNA and Backspace, but I would just give up at this point.

 JNAProductions wrote:
...

Dark Angels are the ones with BS 2 Overwatch currently.

And you can wound T7 with S4.

Do you not know the rules?

Yeah my dude, S4 wounds T7 on a 6....

 JNAProductions wrote:
...

Dark Angels are the ones with BS 2 Overwatch currently.

And you can wound T7 with S4.

Do you not know the rules?

1. I mis-spoke when I said T7. I likely had T3 in mind. To be clear:

If you compare T4 to T8, there's not a number in the chart.

2. Check out the Lions Blade Strike Force for DA. Full BS overwatch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Backspacehacker wrote:except you now made dark angels even better at over watching.

Dark angles ALL have grim resloves meaning i over watch at BS 2, with your system its gets a +1 which means im over watching at BS 3. if i take a battle demi company, i get to over watch at BS 4. If i take a lions blade strike force i get to overwatch at BS 5, better then my normal shooting.

So sure, thanks for making my overwatching army even better, and infact, it now is better for me to HOPE i get charged.

This isn't a problem with replacing PE with a +1 stat mod. This is a problem with dark angels. DA are OP.

 Traditio wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
...

Dark Angels are the ones with BS 2 Overwatch currently.

And you can wound T7 with S4.

Do you not know the rules?

1. I mis-spoke when I said T7. I likely had T3 in mind. To be clear:

If you compare T4 to T8, there's not a number in the chart.

2. Check out the Lions Blade Strike Force for DA. Full BS overwatch.

Which in your system now lets me get a +1 to over watch now right? So im going to be firing BS 5 in over watch, thats on average going to be 16 bolter shots hitting on 2s

Damn man, i totally wanna use this system now and fight orks or nids and watch them cry.

Please stop accusing things of being OP. I've seen what you consider a TAC list-you pretty clearly do not have much of an idea what OP is.

 Traditio wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
...

Dark Angels are the ones with BS 2 Overwatch currently.

And you can wound T7 with S4.

Do you not know the rules?

1. I mis-spoke when I said T7. I likely had T3 in mind. To be clear:

If you compare T4 to T8, there's not a number in the chart.

2. Check out the Lions Blade Strike Force for DA. Full BS overwatch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Backspacehacker wrote:except you now made dark angels even better at over watching.

Dark angles ALL have grim resloves meaning i over watch at BS 2, with your system its gets a +1 which means im over watching at BS 3. if i take a battle demi company, i get to over watch at BS 4. If i take a lions blade strike force i get to overwatch at BS 5, better then my normal shooting.

So sure, thanks for making my overwatching army even better, and infact, it now is better for me to HOPE i get charged.

This isn't a problem with replacing PE with a +1 stat mod. This is a problem with dark angels. DA are OP.

They are OP because your rules just made them OP, being able to overwatch at BS 5. lol good job breaking my army for me ha

 JNAProductions wrote:
Please stop accusing things of being OP. I've seen what you consider a TAC list-you pretty clearly do not have much of an idea what OP is.

You don't consider 3+ rerollable jinks, free transports and BS 4 overwatch as OP?

I mean, I could start talking about more, but let's start there.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Please stop accusing things of being OP. I've seen what you consider a TAC list-you pretty clearly do not have much of an idea what OP is.

This, you wanna see an OP Dark angels army? i can show you an OP dark angels army thats going to make you cry and rage quit, and it wont even have anything to do with twin linked.

Backspacehacker wrote:They are OP because your rules just made them OP, being able to overwatch at BS 5. lol good job breaking my army for me ha

My rules didn't make them OP. They're OP as is.

 Traditio wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Please stop accusing things of being OP. I've seen what you consider a TAC list-you pretty clearly do not have much of an idea what OP is.

You don't consider 3+ rerollable jinks, free transports and BS 4 overwatch as OP?

I mean, I could start talking about more, but let's start there.

3+ Rerollable Jinks? Nah, just kill 'em in Close Combat or use Template weapons.

Free Transports and BS 4 Overwatch are powerful, and I would consider them probably top tier along with Space Marines. The Lion's Blade is something you should not bring to a casual game, I'd agree on that. But Dark Angels in general? Not overpowered. Powerful-but not too much so. Lion's Blade could use a nerf, but that's a very small subset of DA players.

 Traditio wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Please stop accusing things of being OP. I've seen what you consider a TAC list-you pretty clearly do not have much of an idea what OP is.

You don't consider 3+ rerollable jinks, free transports and BS 4 overwatch as OP?

I mean, I could start talking about more, but let's start there.

"3+ rerollable" what is template and ignore cover for $1000 bob.

addtionally, thats HARDLY their most OP thing they can do with bikes, thats timid.

And the free transports are only if you run the Lions blade strike force, which is very costly to run, and the only way you can even get it into a 1850 game is if you run your squads VERY lean and thin, im talking only taking 30 marines and 3 heavy/special weapons. At which point you are fighting a tournament list which is designed to be game breaking and exploitative.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:

Backspacehacker wrote:They are OP because your rules just made them OP, being able to overwatch at BS 5. lol good job breaking my army for me ha

My rules didn't make them OP. They're OP as is.

Only if you take lions blade, which again, in the 1850 range, thats a tournament build. If you are trying to fight a tournament list with a none tournament list, then thats not op thats you being foolish.

 Traditio wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Please stop accusing things of being OP. I've seen what you consider a TAC list-you pretty clearly do not have much of an idea what OP is.

You don't consider 3+ rerollable jinks, free transports and BS 4 overwatch as OP?

I mean, I could start talking about more, but let's start there.

You've been told before why the rerollable jinking bikes aren't actually broken (because when they jink they don't do any damage since they are snap firing and have short range, you can just assault them, shoot flamers at them, etc.). BS4 Overwatch (and overwatch in general) is easily mitigated with charging in bait units or using LoS blocking terrain to limit damage to a model or two.

Free transports is dumb but C:SM does it better

CrownAxe wrote:You've been told before why the rerollable jinking bikes aren't actually broken (because when they jink they don't do any damage since they are snap firing and have short range).

That didn't stop people from crying "OP" over transports in 5th edition.

No. If something is practically unkillable, it's OP. Period.

BS4 Overwatch (and overwatch in general) is easily mitigated with charging in bait units or using LoS blocking terrain to limit damage to a model or two.

It basically gives DA two shooting phases. That's not fair. End of story.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Please stop accusing things of being OP. I've seen what you consider a TAC list-you pretty clearly do not have much of an idea what OP is.

You don't consider 3+ rerollable jinks, free transports and BS 4 overwatch as OP?

I mean, I could start talking about more, but let's start there.

You've been told before why the rerollable jinking bikes aren't actually broken (because when they jink they don't do any damage since they are snap firing and have short range, you can just assault them, shoot flamers at them, etc.). BS4 Overwatch (and overwatch in general) is easily mitigated with charging in bait units or using LoS blocking terrain to limit damage to a model or two.

Free transports is dumb but C:SM does it better

This, this is why combat squads are awesome, half the force soaks up the bullets the other gets the attacks.

3+ re rollable is hardly an issue.

You wanna talk broken in that army?

Ok

RW command squad, banner, apoth, champion, 10 bikes, and a darkshroud, enjoy dealing with 2+ rerollable, and not being able to over watch me, then in your assault phase getting to auto pass hit and run back into my dark shourd and blast you point blank with my plasma talons then charge at you.

 Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:You've been told before why the rerollable jinking bikes aren't actually broken (because when they jink they don't do any damage since they are snap firing and have short range).

That didn't stop people from crying "OP" over transports in 5th edition.

No. If something is practically unkillable, it's OP. Period.

BS4 Overwatch (and overwatch in general) is easily mitigated with charging in bait units or using LoS blocking terrain to limit damage to a model or two.

It basically gives DA two shooting phases. That's not fair. End of story.

Right! Because no CC units or Ignores Cover weapons exist! And there's no way to make them fail when 1 out of every 9 wounds will go through on average! No sir-ree!

And the second shooting phase makes them target your choice of model, not their choice. It's powerful-but it's not perfect.

 Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:You've been told before why the rerollable jinking bikes aren't actually broken (because when they jink they don't do any damage since they are snap firing and have short range).

That didn't stop people from crying "OP" over transports in 5th edition.

No. If something is practically unkillable, it's OP. Period.

BS4 Overwatch (and overwatch in general) is easily mitigated with charging in bait units or using LoS blocking terrain to limit damage to a model or two.

It basically gives DA two shooting phases. That's not fair. End of story.

Ok, well guess waht, that was 5th ed, this is 7th, thats 2 ed ago, welcome to the now.

They only get 2 shooting phases if they run lions blade, WHICH is a very costly formation and the LOWEST you can run it reasonably is in 1850 which agian, running a lions blade in 1850 is a tournament list. All tournament lists are broken because thats how they win.

If you are fighting a tournament list with a non tournament list, then yeah you are gonna get smashed.

WHICH I WOULD LIKE TO ADD! they are still firing snap shots so they cant fire blast weapons.

 Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:You've been told before why the rerollable jinking bikes aren't actually broken (because when they jink they don't do any damage since they are snap firing and have short range).

That didn't stop people from crying "OP" over transports in 5th edition.

No. If something is practically unkillable, it's OP. Period.

Those aren't even remotely comparable. DA bikes can't jink in close combat so are just as durable as regular bikes against half the damage in the game. 5ed Transports actually were unkillable because you had to get a lucky 6+ to get an explode to kill it and if you didn't they didn't care because they were just being transports. And this was against all forms of damage, not just shooting like it is for DA bikes.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:You've been told before why the rerollable jinking bikes aren't actually broken (because when they jink they don't do any damage since they are snap firing and have short range).

That didn't stop people from crying "OP" over transports in 5th edition.

No. If something is practically unkillable, it's OP. Period.

Those aren't even remotely comparable. DA bikes can't jink in close combat so are just as durable as regular bikes against half the damage in the game. 5ed Transports actually were unkillable because you had to get a lucky 6+ to get an explode to kill it and if you didn't they didn't care because they were just being transports.

Not to mention, once you blased off all the weapons it just ran around as mobile cover so.

Also this is the flaw of bikes, they are low wound count, still only save on a 3+ and are only T5.

CrownAxe wrote:Those aren't even remotely comparable. DA bikes can't jink in close combat so are just as durable as regular bikes against half the damage in the game. 5ed Transports actually were unkillable because you had to get a lucky 6+ to get an explode to kill it and if you didn't they didn't care because they were just being transports. And this was against all forms of damage, not just shooting like it is for DA bikes.

That still makes DA virtually unkillable against shooty armies.

That's not cool.

What army do you play, Tradito? Because I guarantee you there's ways to take out Dark Angels.

 Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:Those aren't even remotely comparable. DA bikes can't jink in close combat so are just as durable as regular bikes against half the damage in the game. 5ed Transports actually were unkillable because you had to get a lucky 6+ to get an explode to kill it and if you didn't they didn't care because they were just being transports. And this was against all forms of damage, not just shooting like it is for DA bikes.

That still makes DA virtually unkillable against shooty armies.

That's not cool.

Then I fall back to the other point i made which is when DA bikes are busy jinking to not die to shooting they aren't contributing much to the game because they proceed to do almost no damage while jinking

 JNAProductions wrote:
What army do you play, Tradito? Because I guarantee you there's ways to take out Dark Angels.

That's a different topic for another thread.

Will you at least admit this:

If the DA save maxed out at a 2+ jink without the possibility of reroll, this would be more fair and more balanced?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CrownAxe[ wrote:Then I fall back to the other point i made which is when DA bikes are busy jinking to not die to shooting they aren't contributing much to the game because they proceed to do almost no damage while jinking

Again:

This didn't stop people from crying OP about transports in 5th edition.

Why is it a different topic? You're complaining they're OP-but you refuse to receive advice on how to handle them.

And no-a 3+ rerollable (or the ITC's 2+/4+) is not unbalanced. It encourages you to find a way around it heavily, but it's not unbalanced.

I will agree that a 2+ rerollable, especially for invulns, is unbalanced. Which is why the ITC ruling that a 2+ rerolls to a 4+ (giving a 1/12 chance of failure) is a good idea.

 Traditio wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
What army do you play, Tradito? Because I guarantee you there's ways to take out Dark Angels.

That's a different topic for another thread.

Will you at least admit this:

If the DA save maxed out at a 2+ jink without the possibility of reroll, this would be more fair and more balanced?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CrownAxe[ wrote:Then I fall back to the other point i made which is when DA bikes are busy jinking to not die to shooting they aren't contributing much to the game because they proceed to do almost no damage while jinking

Again:

This didn't stop people from crying OP about transports in 5th edition.

Again not comparable. The transports job was to transport a unit inside and that unit did all the damage. Which is what the problem with 5ed transports was was that there was almost nothing you could to stop the transports from getting to where it needed to and having it riders get out and blow stuff up

DA bikes are either durable or damaging dealing. 5ed Transports were both at the same time.

Will you admit to any of the arguments everyone has been presenting to you for 5 pages?

 CrownAxe wrote:
Again not comparable. The transports job was to transport a unit inside and that unit did all the damage. Which is what the problem with 5ed transports was was that there was almost nothing you could to stop the transports from getting to where it needed to and having it riders get out and blow stuff up

This. Seriously, the problem with transport durability in 5th was not that they were impossible to kill (which was annoying if the dice were against you too much), it was that they were very difficult to stop. Shaken and weapon destroyed results did nothing to transports, so very often you'd put some hits on a Rhino, keep it from shooting its irrelevant storm bolter, and watch it drive up to unload its cargo of full-BS shooting. Or you'd kill it after it moved its cargo up and the passengers would get out without any problems and go straight to killing you. It is possible that bikes have a durability problem, but it is not the same durability problem as 5th edition transport spam.