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So I'm making a 1500pts fallen army, but since I like dreadnoughts I'm using the dark angels codex. Question is can I use Cypher even tough he surround himself with chosen of chaos, and can I use a Renegade Knight or should I just use the Imperial Knight Gallant since aside from the face there basically the same?

RE: Cypher's rules
"[Cypher] may not be included in any army that includes any models from Codex: Dark Angels"

As Darkness says, Cypher and the Angels don't mix too well.

If you like dreadnaughts (as in the models) just proxxy them as helbrutes; same with the rest of the army, proxy fallen angels as CSM.

Ive tried that but the dreagnouts don't come with the same weapons as the hellbrutes, so its too complicated.

Pedro31 wrote:
Ive tried that but the dreagnouts don't come with the same weapons as the hellbrutes, so its too complicated.

They're pretty similar, what are you wanting to take on your dreadnaught that a helbrute can't?

What about forgeworld dreadnoughts...those are fairly close.
Nvm, misread OP.
On second thought I'm not sure if you're still intent on using codex dark angels. Imperial armour 13 has actual chaos dreadnought rules, including contemptors. You can use a loyalist dread for the csm dread. I'm not sure how similar the loadout is but at least the body would be identical. Can't imagine there would a huge difference mind you.

That would make army composition much easier. everything would be actual CSM, including the knight thanks to traitors hate.

Renegade knights can take two rapid fire battle cannons. I'd probably go for that myself.

Dreagnout, Venerable or Ironclad none of them come with 2 arms the hellbrute can have, I would have to buy 2 to make one, Trust me ive tried it. But fine I cant use cypher, now to my second question, if renegade knight is chaos he cannot be used with codex dark angels right?

Dreadnaughts come with an assault cannon and power fist don't they?

Anyway, you could take a renegade knight with your dark angels but it would be come the apocalypse so they can't come within 12" of each other.

Why don't you use the space marine codex?

@mrhappyface initial load out is multi melta and powerfist.

Pedro31 wrote:
Dreagnout, Venerable or Ironclad none of them come with 2 arms the hellbrute can have, I would have to buy 2 to make one, Trust me ive tried it. But fine I cant use cypher, now to my second question, if renegade knight is chaos he cannot be used with codex dark angels right?

The Helbrute kit can make Lascannon/Missile Launcher, Lascannon/Fist, Fist/Fist, Fist/Hammer, Multi-melta/Fist, Multi-melta/Missile Launcher, Plasma Cannon/Fist, Plasma Cannon/Missile Launcher - all of which are legal Loyalist loadouts.
(oh noes, you'll need to convert the built-in weapons on the fists)

The standard Dreadnought can make Lascannon/Fist, Lascannon/Missile Launcher.
The Venerable Dreadnought can make Lascannon/Fist, Lascannon/Missile Launcher, Plasma Cannon/Missile Launcher, Plasma Cannon/Fist.
The Ironclad can make Fist/Fist, Fist/Hammer.
- all of which are legal Helbrute loadouts.



(EDIT: Wow I make a lot of spelling mistakes...)

 JamesY wrote:
Why don't you use the space marine codex?

@mrhappyface initial load out is multi melta and powerfist.

Because the guys at my gaming club said that that's only for chapters that don't have a codex.

Pedro31 wrote:
Because the guys at my gaming club said that that's only for chapters that don't have a codex.

Surely by that train of logic, they wouldn't be happy with Fallen using Dark Angel rules, since Fallen literally have rules in which they're Chaos Marines..?

 JamesY wrote:
Why don't you use the space marine codex?

@mrhappyface initial load out is multi melta and powerfist.

So it comes with the exact same loadout as a regular helbrute, what exactly is the problem with using a dreadnought as a counts as helbrute then?

Pedro31 wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
Why don't you use the space marine codex?

@mrhappyface initial load out is multi melta and powerfist.

Because the guys at my gaming club said that that's only for chapters that don't have a codex.

Well technically speaking Fallen Angels don't have a codex.

Pedro31 wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
Why don't you use the space marine codex?

@mrhappyface initial load out is multi melta and powerfist.

Because the guys at my gaming club said that that's only for chapters that don't have a codex.

That's nonsense. It's rules for letting you play a game with your collection. As long as the models are clearly recognisable as what they are (i.e. a marine with a bolter is a marine with a bolter), and you are following all the relevant rules, you can use whatever codex you decide upon.


@mrhappyface the only issue I can see is that for some insane reason, none of the dreadnought kits actually contain a multimelta option, despite it being the stock option.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

Pedro31 wrote:
Dreagnout, Venerable or Ironclad none of them come with 2 arms the hellbrute can have, I would have to buy 2 to make one, Trust me ive tried it. But fine I cant use cypher, now to my second question, if renegade knight is chaos he cannot be used with codex dark angels right?

The Helbrute kit can make Lascannon/Missile Launcher, Lascannon/Fist, Fist/Fist, Fist/Hammer, Multi-melta/Fist, Multi-melta/Missile Launcher, Plasma Cannon/Fist, Plasma Cannon/Missile Launcher - all of which are legal Loyalist loadouts.
(oh noes, you'll need to convert the built-in weapons on the fists)

The standard Dreadnought can make Lascannon/Fist, Lascannon/Missile Launcher.
The Venerable Dreadnought can make Lascannon/Fist, Lascannon/Missile Launcher, Plasma Cannon/Missile Launcher, Plasma Cannon/Fist.
The Ironclad can make Fist/Fist, Fist/Hammer.
- all of which are legal Helbrute loadouts.



(EDIT: Wow I make a lot of spelling mistakes...)

So they're almost identical and OP wants to play with dreads and he wants to use a renegade knight and his club insisting on using the "proper" codex.
Why not use CSM? Cypher's dataslate contains a formation for fallen Angels so surely the club would appreciate using that.

The Ferrum Infernus dreadnought from forgeworld has the same options and then some. It also happens to have better stats than a helbrute and can be upgrades to have front armour 13 and extra armour which I believe mimicks the ironclad.
Doing so gives you all the loyalist dread options and let's you use the "correct" codex and there is no need for allies since they would all be csm, including the knight.

Unless you want to use the dark angels codex for the relics and their own units, this seems like the sensible choice no?

Just gonna throw it out there, nothing is stopping you from running Codex marines, painting them as "Fallen" taking cypher, and saying they are chaos, and including your knights and dreadnaughts.

You can take cypher in IoM armies just not DA armies.

Just try to stay clear of CSM rules. The hellbrute is worse than regular dread, forcing you to select the closest target rather thzn one you want.

I'd go for codex SM with codex IK and paint the models as desired.

 Roknar wrote:

The Ferrum Infernus dreadnought from forgeworld has the same options and then some. It also happens to have better stats than a helbrute and can be upgrades to have front armour 13 and extra armour which I believe mimicks the ironclad.
Doing so gives you all the loyalist dread options and let's you use the "correct" codex and there is no need for allies since they would all be csm, including the knight.

Not to mention you can take a Legacy of Ruin and a Mark for more fun. Ferrum Infernus dreads are a little overcosted but can absolutely wreak havoc when properly deployed.

crazy idea: use a 30k legion list for fallen dark angels.

 axisofentropy wrote:
crazy idea: use a 30k legion list for fallen dark angels.

Then you can't use Cypher.