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I am participating in my first competitive event in November, and I have yet to submit my list because I cannot decide if I should include a Fire Raptor with Autocannons, and Balefire missiles, with 2 heldrakes for 600 points or if I should use the Helforged Warpack formation from TH where I would be running an extra warpsmith, 2 forgefiends and a defiler for 670 points.

I enjoy the fliers, however, in all of my practice games they rarely are all on the board before turn 3 and I feel with the tournament being 1650 points, I am severely lacking in firepower before they arrive. Plus allowing all of the units in this formation to activate their daemonforged rules every turn would be nice.

Thoughts?

Well, this is a pretty easy option since Defilers are bad choices. Take anything but Defilers.

I've been trying to make the CSM Decurion work and I just have not found a way to do so at lower than 2k. I think you would be better served with the traditional Cultists and Plague Marines as Troops in a CAD until you go for higher points. To include the Fire Raptor you have to take a CAD, which means tax units, which you just don't have the points for.

I already have everything else I need from the CAD I am using, my only concern is using the flyers vs units that can come in turn 1 or be set up on the field. My CAD includes Cultists, Warpsmith, sicarans, and a knight

Well, you just have to decide which Tax units are worth it in your list.

I usually always go double CAD so take 4 min cultists. Now I COULD run a LATD Detachment now to access some new goodies, but what are we trying to do? This also means i have to take a Dark Apostle tax. Ask, what does it accomplish. More HQs? More Spawns? More boons?

I love Obliterators too, so is the Warp smith tax worth it to field them in the Crusade Detachment?

I like the complete customisation of a standard CAD. BUT if the benefits and restrictions of the fixed detachments are worth it to you, then by all means.

Funny enough, all the units that I don't bring in my Go To CSM list, all fits into the new Crusade Detachment Warband. I call it the Rejects Warband. It's like a whole new army!

I am still using a standard CAD, the only thing is, I am wondering if I should add the above mentioned formation, or if I should keep the flyers. I DO NOT use the decurian, as I like my CADs and do not care for the extra boons in this tournament.

There's no benefit to sticking with the CAD for CSM though. You get OS on everything through the Warband and you'll get better Raptors/Terminators using the formations.

I enjoy the CAD because it allows me to take the sicarans (I take 2) and if I was going to, take the fire raptor.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
There's no benefit to sticking with the CAD for CSM though. You get OS on everything through the Warband and you'll get better Raptors/Terminators using the formations.

Sure there is. You get access to forgeworld units which are both fluffy and good. The only forgworld units you get in a decurion are the dreadclaw and kytan. That's reason enough to go with a CAD for some people.

If you're using space marines in your army anywayz, there's no reason not to try the chaosurion. It's good. Those 2 free boons, free votlw and everything obsec helps. Also, forgeworld is rarely seen in our meta outside of full fw armies like renegades, so noone really misses all those sicarans and artillery.

However, it all depends on your tournament missions. If it's more about killpoints or more about scoring.

The Forgefiends will help you against everything but Dark Angels, and help you more against Tau, but Heldrakes will help you more against Battle Company of all flavors and Eldar Jetbikes. I think it's that additional option in both cases that sways the choice, and that's the Fire Raptor compared to a Defiler. The Defiler is just garbage this edition and the Fire Raptor, still not the most useful against Tau, is a beast if it can survive. What are the chances of taking a "Ready for Takeoff" Landing Pad as well? Even without it, I'm swinging towards the turkeys and Raptor.

As far as the other conversation about Decurion vs CAD, there's plenty of reasons to stay with a CAD, and the best one is points. CSM are not an MSU army, even with Obj Sec on all the core choice. Obj Sec is still fairly well handled in Chaos with Plagues and Cultists as your pillars and Noise Marines in the rare lists that swing towards more long range.

The Decurion is just hard to make decent at less than 1850 without free points in some section of it, and VotLW for free is NOT good enough. It's nice, but not the needed buff. Forge World makes or breaks CSM and you need a CAD for that. Raptors and Terminators and Havocs are nice, don't get me wrong, but Sicarans, Fire Raptors, Hell Talons and Blight Drones are nicer. The tax units in the Decurion are a bit too excessive if you ask me. 110pt Warpsmith for most of the good Aux choices hurts, and I hate the Helbrute so friggin much.