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 master of ordinance wrote:

Reavas wrote:
Unpopular opinion, but I prefer the new androgenous models for daemonettes, they are more in line with the fluff and makes sense.

I would not mind them so much if it where not for:
A) the terrible, static, poses. The Diaz models had life, they where twirling, swirling, leaping and bounding. They where dancing. The new ones are great clodhopping clubfooted and clumsy aberrations.
B) The awful piranha faces. They do not look good, they look bloody awful.

Oh I completely agree, I was arguing more in terms of their breasts being traded for a more deformed half male half female look, also their twisted faces I dont have too much of a problem with as it fits the vibe of a twisted distortion between facial features of both sexes. But the poses... dynamic poses for models give them life and portray character, necrons are conveyed to look slow and hunched, harlequines look agile and swift. The new daemonettes are just sorta are standing there or slowly walking rather than swiftly leaping and bounding. Poor design choice

 Yarium wrote:
I'm surprised how many people want 40k to go darker, grittier, and more okay with sexuality. I am 100% fine with those things, but I can't be selfish. 40k as a hobby needs to grow, and that means it needs to attract a younger audience in a target range. What range is that? I think it's 14-18. Young blood is necessary to make sure that the hobby carries forward, and GW's survival depends on that.

GW has a lot of leeway on its models and artistic depictions, but it has to avoid anything that would put it in the 18+ category. While slipping a boob may seem strange to us as being worse than telling a story about virus-bombing populations, the laws of many countries make it quite clear that, yes, that is the case from their perspective. So, guess what? It means GW needs to walk a fine line there.

It should not become grittier or more sexualized if that pushes the barrier of entry above 18 years old. Yes, the older crowds have more money to spend, but you need to bring people in young so they have the desire to grow their collection when they're older.

40k, as a hobby, has probably seen its golden years and is now in its twilight. It is going to need a complete overhaul, a la Dungeons & Dragons, to return to something like its previous prominence. Ironically, the state of the hobby is perfectly reflected in its fluff... the Imperium of Man, long past its prime and its best days naught but dim memories, is encircled by scores of rivals nipping at its flanks.

It's not the boob-plate, or the daemonettes, or the presence of Slaanesh that has moved the game into the state that it is in now. After all, during its heyday, there was more sex and violence in 40k than there is now.

Asterios wrote:

you want 12 year old kids to even look at the models then you have to slap some titties on them, other then that the average 12 year old will look at the game and go meh, look around you at your local gaming store how many 12 year olds play Warhammer?

Last time I was in Glasgow gw, I couldn't move for all the kids that's were packing the place.

And trust me, you're being a bit harsh towards twelve year olds. there are other things than... that ... that will draw them in.

Asterios wrote:

then look how many are playing Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh, then look around how many playing video games, miniatures you have to build and paint are not attracting kids, they don't want to play a game where you have to work to play, they want instant gratification when it comes to their gaming experience, not a slow build up.

There is nothing wrong with that. Like I said, this is a niche hobby. And always was. We are outliers as a whole. But this really want no different ten, twenty or even thirty years ago.

Asterios wrote:

and the reason the Theaters survive still today is because you can't get the DVD that fast yet (legally or good) and because everyhing else is just too small to watch a big movie on, me personally i haven't been to a theater in years but know it still has appeal.

Oh I think it's hilarious how someone who hasn't been to a theatre in years tries still to tell someone who actually likes the theatre why they like the theatre. And gets it so spectacularly wrong.

Theatres are great because it is a far more intimate experience than a DVD. Theatre only really comes to life on the stage, not on a small screen in your living room. It just does not work like that. At the end of the day, it's just a different and unique way of expressing a story, and if you've been to the likes of something like the lion king at the west end, you'd understand this - people often end up preferring the theatre experience to the animated movie. Or at the very least loving the experience and coming back again to see more of it. I know I did. And it's certainly not because I couldn't get the DVD or had read the book.

In any case, the theatre still has value. And it's adherents. Like I said, in an era of cinema and DVDs and video games. Table top wargames are exactly the same thing. There will always be adherents to something more traditional And old school, despite the existence of th latest power consoles and whatever else is out there.

Instead of declaring that all the fluff needs to be darker and edgier or lighter and softer, I think that it benefits from being more layered with multiple interpretations allowing players of different ages to decide how they want to be represented. A perfect example of this are the Tau, which on the surface appear to be a utopian meritocracy that are making it work while beset on all sides by their foes, but if you dig deeper there are hints at mind control, speciesism, and general hypocrisy. Younger players or players that enjoy the happier side of the universe get their heroes fighting for justice, while people that enjoy the darker tones get their hopeless moral myopia. The same applies to most other factions with Orks being comical, bumbling hooligans or an unstoppable force of destruction, Eldar being graceful beings fighting to survive or narcissists that would kill planets to save their own kind, and Grey Knights being the noble knights fighting daemons or genocidal maniacs.

The trick to saving the hobby is not to make it more niche by driving it towards either extreme, but to try and cast as wide a net as possible to catch as many players of different tastes as possible.

Asterios wrote:
you want 12 year old kids to even look at the models then you have to slap some titties on them

We know some very different twelve year olds.

Barring the fact that roughly half the human population has no interest in breasts (straight girls gay boys, various other sexual orientations/ preferences), the fact that at twelve most of these people will not have developed a sex drive, and the fact that these are tiny plastic models when the internet exists. . . and get get maybe a handful of people that you could appeal to in other ways that don't drive people away.

I think that the relatively early (70's-80's) Judge Dredd comics did it best. Very adult, serious themes. "Unfiltered" violence in the appropriate context. No white-washing of anything.

And absolutely no sexuality.

I can understand why the Dredd writers may have breached sexual themes later on (e.g., the rape scene in Judge Dredd: Origins comes to mind...for what it was, it was "tasteful" enough, I suppose), but still, I'm not a fan.

My sentiments are the same for 40k (especially the space marines) and for the judges: I signed up for an ultra-violent grim-dark setting in which the stars are basically celibate warrior monks.

I want the setting to mirror that.

Old stony face doesn't need to be more "human" or personable. Neither do the space marines. And neither do their settings.

And for feth's sake, absolutely no romance!

IoW:

No breasts. Lots of things like...punching Fear in the face.

No, I don't think GW should adjust lore to make it more kid friendly. There is a ton of excellent stuff in 40k, I'd hate to see it get watered down.

Deadnight wrote:

Asterios wrote:

you want 12 year old kids to even look at the models then you have to slap some titties on them, other then that the average 12 year old will look at the game and go meh, look around you at your local gaming store how many 12 year olds play Warhammer?

Last time I was in Glasgow gw, I couldn't move for all the kids that's were packing the place.

And trust me, you're being a bit harsh towards twelve year olds. there are other things than... that ... that will draw them in.

Asterios wrote:

then look how many are playing Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh, then look around how many playing video games, miniatures you have to build and paint are not attracting kids, they don't want to play a game where you have to work to play, they want instant gratification when it comes to their gaming experience, not a slow build up.

There is nothing wrong with that. Like I said, this is a niche hobby. And always was. We are outliers as a whole. But this really want no different ten, twenty or even thirty years ago.

Asterios wrote:

and the reason the Theaters survive still today is because you can't get the DVD that fast yet (legally or good) and because everyhing else is just too small to watch a big movie on, me personally i haven't been to a theater in years but know it still has appeal.

Oh I think it's hilarious how someone who hasn't been to a theatre in years tries still to tell someone who actually likes the theatre why they like the theatre. And gets it so spectacularly wrong.

Theatres are great because it is a far more intimate experience than a DVD. Theatre only really comes to life on the stage, not on a small screen in your living room. It just does not work like that. At the end of the day, it's just a different and unique way of expressing a story, and if you've been to the likes of something like the lion king at the west end, you'd understand this - people often end up preferring the theatre experience to the animated movie. Or at the very least loving the experience and coming back again to see more of it. I know I did. And it's certainly not because I couldn't get the DVD or had read the book.

In any case, the theatre still has value. And it's adherents. Like I said, in an era of cinema and DVDs and video games. Table top wargames are exactly the same thing. There will always be adherents to something more traditional And old school, despite the existence of th latest power consoles and whatever else is out there.

actually I prefer watching movies at home every now and then I get an early copy of a movie from a cousin or friend and can watch it in the comfort of my own home, can pause it when i want to get a snack or use the rest room, don't have to worry about the guy/girl explaining the movie 2 rows back, or the ones near me asking whats going on and so forth, theaters are not intimate, they are as intimate as a fast food place. then there is the cost of popcorn, soda and a candy there, last time me and the wife went to the movies it cost us about $40, last time I watched a movie at my place it was less then $10 and we had a better time too.

As to GW believe it or not they are struggling a bit this is shown by all their changes they are doing trying to make the game more interesting or intriguing, but they are still facing an uphill battle and kidifying the game will cost them even more. i'm not saying they need to bring sex to the game, it never had it when it was good so why have it now? and having boob armor on minis is not sexing it up either.

 the Signless wrote:

Asterios wrote:
you want 12 year old kids to even look at the models then you have to slap some titties on them

We know some very different twelve year olds.

Barring the fact that roughly half the human population has no interest in breasts (straight girls gay boys, various other sexual orientations/ preferences), the fact that at twelve most of these people will not have developed a sex drive, and the fact that these are tiny plastic models when the internet exists. . . and get get maybe a handful of people that you could appeal to in other ways that don't drive people away.

thats why they are going to be teaching sex ed classes and giving out condoms in middle school? trust me at 12 kids are developing a sex drive.

 Peregrine wrote:
Yes. Lore-wise it doesn't need to get darker than the existing dark things, but "grimdark" needs to mean more than "heroic space marines doing heroic things, but MOAR SKULLS EVERYWHERE". But where the game needs to be more adult-oriented is in the rules. GW is catering to kids way too much with the current rules and it's dragging down the game for the rest of us.

?????????? What? So the 500 pages of rules and 140 pages of FAQs are catering to kids? That's just silly, excessive RNG may not be good game design, but it's certainly not catering. You ever seen a kid get BFed by RNG? They'll stop playing tabletop games FOREVER over that gak. The game isn't catering to kids it's honestly so confused at this point it doesn't know WHO it's built for anymore.

I suppose the short answer is yes, but to elaborate a bit, I wish the current writing wasn't so immature (for lack of a better word).

I read a Forge World book, and I see this insane creativity and effort going into crafting the narrative, history of the Heresy, or story of the Siege of Vraks, and then I read Traitor's Hate and it seems like something a high school student would write. Maybe I personally couldn't do better, but clearly people within company (by extension FW) certainly can. But I bought the book, as did plenty of others, so clearly we're eating it up.

bah wrong topic.

ERJAK wrote:
?????????? What? So the 500 pages of rules and 140 pages of FAQs are catering to kids? That's just silly, excessive RNG may not be good game design, but it's certainly not catering. You ever seen a kid get BFed by RNG? They'll stop playing tabletop games FOREVER over that gak. The game isn't catering to kids it's honestly so confused at this point it doesn't know WHO it's built for anymore.

Yes, it's catering to kids. Not all kids, but the kind of kids that will talk at you for hours about every possible boring detail of their favorite thing. They'll memorize all 500 pages of the rules and love it, because it's so many awesome special rules to learn and so many ways that their bestest army ever is totally going to beat you every game. And the excessive randomness removes as much skill as possible so that even kids, with their poor ability to grasp strategy, can win half the time against older opponents. Sure, the kids will sometimes get frustrated by RNG, but there's so much more RNG that they'll quickly have something to be excited about. It's the same reason why kids enjoy playing games that are literally "roll a die to see how many spaces you move", you get all the excitement of "winning" a real game but no matter how much you suck at it you still get to win.


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Asterios wrote:
actually I prefer watching movies at home every now and then I get an early copy of a movie from a cousin or friend and can watch it in the comfort of my own home, can pause it when i want to get a snack or use the rest room, don't have to worry about the guy/girl explaining the movie 2 rows back, or the ones near me asking whats going on and so forth, theaters are not intimate, they are as intimate as a fast food place. then there is the cost of popcorn, soda and a candy there, last time me and the wife went to the movies it cost us about $40, last time I watched a movie at my place it was less then $10 and we had a better time too.

You do understand that they're talking about theater, as in actors on a stage performing a play, not watching movies on a bigger screen, right?


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 Traditio wrote:
I think that the relatively early (70's-80's) Judge Dredd comics did it best. Very adult, serious themes. "Unfiltered" violence in the appropriate context. No white-washing of anything.

And absolutely no sexuality.

Yes, we know you have some weird issues with sex, especially anything your religion declares to be immoral sex. But for the rest of us sex and relationships are things that exist. I don't necessarily want to see space marine orgies on every page (though let's be honest, there's probably a lot of that happening "off screen"), but you get really shallow and boring fluff when you pretend that humans are nothing more than mindless killing machines. Good fluff involves characters, not merely dry explanations of exactly how the Ultramarines™ Chapter™ Space™ Marine™ Captain™ decapitated a Necron™ Warrior™ with his Power™ Axe™, complete with links to buy the appropriate Citadel™ Multi-Part™ Plastic™ Miniatures™ at your local Games™ Workshop™ Hobby™ Center™.

 Peregrine wrote:

Asterios wrote:
actually I prefer watching movies at home every now and then I get an early copy of a movie from a cousin or friend and can watch it in the comfort of my own home, can pause it when i want to get a snack or use the rest room, don't have to worry about the guy/girl explaining the movie 2 rows back, or the ones near me asking whats going on and so forth, theaters are not intimate, they are as intimate as a fast food place. then there is the cost of popcorn, soda and a candy there, last time me and the wife went to the movies it cost us about $40, last time I watched a movie at my place it was less then $10 and we had a better time too.

You do understand that they're talking about theater, as in actors on a stage performing a play, not watching movies on a bigger screen, right?

pretty sure we were talking about movies.

Peregrine wrote:Yes, we know you have some weird issues with sex, especially anything your religion declares to be immoral sex. But for the rest of us sex and relationships are things that exist. I don't necessarily want to see space marine orgies on every page (though let's be honest, there's probably a lot of that happening "off screen"), but you get really shallow and boring fluff when you pretend that humans are nothing more than mindless killing machines. Good fluff involves characters, not merely dry explanations of exactly how the Ultramarines™ Chapter™ Space™ Marine™ Captain™ decapitated a Necron™ Warrior™ with his Power™ Axe™, complete with links to buy the appropriate Citadel™ Multi-Part™ Plastic™ Miniatures™ at your local Games™ Workshop™ Hobby™ Center™.

Do you think that the Judge Dredd series suffers because the judges are supposed to be celibate, and the main character actually follows that rule?

The Dredd 3D movie wouldn't have been particularly harmed if they would have removed what relatively little sexual overtones there were in the movie out entirely. Was the mind-rape bit really needed?

I say no.

They easily could have replaced that with Dredd shooting more people.

I mean, they showed him using his incendiary rounds against perps. Couldn't they have shown them burning alive for just a little bit longer instead?

 Traditio wrote:
Do you think that the Judge Dredd series suffers because the judges are supposed to be celibate, and the main character actually follows that rule?

I don't know, I don't follow Judge Dredd at all. But remember that space marines and SoB are the only factions that could be reasonably argued to be celibate. And maybe add in Necrons, depending on how you interpret them losing their minds and sanity (though they're terrible characters anyway and the fluff wouldn't lose much if they disappeared). IG, Eldar and Tau are all normal "people" with normal sex drives, Chaos has tons of potential to be absolutely obsessed with sex, and Tyranids and Orks would have the normal sex/reproductive instincts of mindless beasts. And even with space marines you're kind of assuming things by declaring them to be celibate. Based on their whole "brotherhood of bromance" thing and Greek/Roman inspiration it would make a lot of sense for even loyalist space marines to be having lots of gay sex. FFS, there's even a space marine chapter with a primarch named after a famous gay poet and a chapter name taken from his famous poem about struggling with homosexuality.

And, honestly, I find it a bit disturbing that you're so repulsed by the idea of sex existing and so bloodthirsty about the idea of getting to watch "bad guys" being burned to death.


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Asterios wrote:
pretty sure we were talking about movies.

Quote:

Theatres are great because it is a far more intimate experience than a DVD. Theatre only really comes to life on the stage, not on a small screen in your living room. It just does not work like that. At the end of the day, it's just a different and unique way of expressing a story, and if you've been to the likes of something like the lion king at the west end, you'd understand this - people often end up preferring the theatre experience to the animated movie. Or at the very least loving the experience and coming back again to see more of it. I know I did. And it's certainly not because I couldn't get the DVD or had read the book.

So let me get this straight, people want adult themes but they don't want sex and romance despite that being an important component in adulthood, I mean you can't have it both ways.

Yes. I would love to see it have more mature content, like sex, mature language and other things like that. The brutal content is there already, GW could very well stopped pretending that this is a game for kids.

I'd have to make the argument that Orks, due to being angry mushrooms that release spores periodically and a massive burst upon death, do not actually have normal sexual/reproductive instincts, in addition to lacking self-preservation.
Most Tyranids (other than Hormagaunts and Gargoyles) completely lack functioning digestive systems, let alone reproductive systems, and cannot reproduce. Hormagaunts and Gargoyles lay eggs, yes.
Humans, Eldar, of course! Source: Gaunt's Ghosts and Path of the Eldar/Dark Eldar + random short story in Fear the Alien. Just in case Traditio tries to point out lack of source.

In my eyes, Gaunt's Ghosts pretty much executes 40k in a mature manner quite well. There are things like shell-shock, human, emotional characters, violence, atrocity, tasteful sex, and logical (oxymoron) depictions of chaos. Bonus points for showing how Chaos' logistics work.

 Cheesecat wrote:
So let me get this straight, people want adult themes but they don't want sex and romance despite that being an important component in adulthood, I mean you can't have it both ways.

You can't have extreme, gratuitous violence without sex and romance?

I beg to differ.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Peregrine wrote:I don't know, I don't follow Judge Dredd at all. But remember that space marines and SoB are the only factions that could be reasonably argued to be celibate. And maybe add in Necrons, depending on how you interpret them losing their minds and sanity (though they're terrible characters anyway and the fluff wouldn't lose much if they disappeared). IG, Eldar and Tau are all normal "people" with normal sex drives, Chaos has tons of potential to be absolutely obsessed with sex, and Tyranids and Orks would have the normal sex/reproductive instincts of mindless beasts. And even with space marines you're kind of assuming things by declaring them to be celibate. Based on their whole "brotherhood of bromance" thing and Greek/Roman inspiration it would make a lot of sense for even loyalist space marines to be having lots of gay sex. FFS, there's even a space marine chapter with a primarch named after a famous gay poet and a chapter name taken from his famous poem about struggling with homosexuality.

Quick note: There's no fething way that Necrons and Orks are engaging in sexual intercourse. Necrons are basically robots, and orks are fungi. They reproduce by spore emissions. I mean, in a sense, practically every "normal" battle is an orgy for an ork. Don't bring flamethrowers, lascannons, or anything else that might prevent the spore emissions, and the orks are having a grand old time.

But fair enough on my interjecting too much into the space marine characters.

But here's the point that I'm ultimately making. What is so attractive about the 40k universe? Its setting as a sci-fi "total war" type universe. I think that the Space Marine video game pulled this off really well. I don't care about a single individual in that game, especially those insignificant guardsmen, except to the extent that they are somehow involved or otherwise related to violence, sweet, delicious, scrumptious violence.

I don't want to hear about that innocent bystander was in love with so and so and blah blah blah. I do want to hear about what she thought about in her last moments right before da boyz cornered her and WAAAAAGHed her to death. And the more graphic the description of her fear and desperation, and her subsequent dispatching, the better.

I don't want to hear about a space marine's romantic life. That's not why I like the character concept. Just like Joseph Dredd the guy doesn't matter, I don't care about space marines as individuals. I only care about them insofar as they are the Emperor's angels of death who bring swift and righteous judgment and a quick, merciful death to the aliens and the heretics.

I mean, I suppose an author could pursue a romance plot on some backwards hive world somewhere, or between a couple of eldar.

But that's not what 40k is "about." That's not what one "buys into" when one gets into 40k. "In the grim darkness of the future, there is only war."

So, do show me about how those worthless maggots in the imperial guard can't even do their job right, their one job, of dying for the Emperor, and show me about how the angels of death came in to save the day and genocide the aliens.

...Romance? Eh...no.

Judge Dredd is SUPPOSED to be two dimensional. 40k is SUPPOSED to be two-dimensional.

I want grim-dark futuristic war. That's what they advertised.

Spare me the sexual stuff. Give me MOAR gratuitous violence. Give me ALL of the gratuitous violence!

And, honestly, I find it a bit disturbing that you're so repulsed by the idea of sex existing and so bloodthirsty about the idea of getting to watch "bad guys" being burned to death.

It's a great scene! It could have been longer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQw5VlfYDTw


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Imho, GW could probably rebrand slaneesh. Replace the "drugs, sex and rock and roll" with something that involves good, honest, clean extreme violence.

Asterios wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Asterios wrote:
actually I prefer watching movies at home every now and then I get an early copy of a movie from a cousin or friend and can watch it in the comfort of my own home, can pause it when i want to get a snack or use the rest room, don't have to worry about the guy/girl explaining the movie 2 rows back, or the ones near me asking whats going on and so forth, theaters are not intimate, they are as intimate as a fast food place. then there is the cost of popcorn, soda and a candy there, last time me and the wife went to the movies it cost us about $40, last time I watched a movie at my place it was less then $10 and we had a better time too.

You do understand that they're talking about theater, as in actors on a stage performing a play, not watching movies on a bigger screen, right?

pretty sure we were talking about movies.

Nope.

You might have been. I was talking about the the theatre. What you are talking about is the cinema.

Big difference.

I kind of like how the background at the moment is pretty light on the surface for kids, but how if you keep digging it slowly gets darker and at times a bit messed up.

I'd rather see it go that way rather than leaning one way or the other.

 Traditio wrote:
I don't want to hear about that innocent bystander was in love with so and so and blah blah blah. I do want to hear about what she thought about in her last moments right before da boyz cornered her and WAAAAAGHed her to death. And the more graphic the description of her fear and desperation, and her subsequent dispatching, the better.

But without love or any other humanizing elements why does the audience care about the poor bystander's death? It's just kill count +1, and the boyz squad levels up to become nobz and get +1 LD. With ™s everywhere, because selling Games™ Workshop™ Products™ is important! And when you add all that graphic violence it becomes little more than torture porn. It has plenty of shock value, but its literary merit is somewhere around the level of the average thread in the battle reports section.

I don't want to hear about a space marine's romantic life. That's not why I like the character concept. Just like Joseph Dredd the guy doesn't matter, I don't care about space marines as individuals. I only care about them insofar as they are the Emperor's angels of death who bring swift and righteous judgment and a quick, merciful death to the aliens and the heretics.

Which, IMO, is boring as hell. And, unfortunately, it's a problem that GW's fluff often suffers from. Space marines that aren't individuals aren't characters, they're just stat lines with a bunch of ™s everywhere and a boring account of how many 3+s they rolled to hit. There's no reason to care whether they win or lose because they're just abstract numbers in a list of casualties suffered and inflicted. Reading the average business spreadsheet is more entertaining than that.

When space marines are done well they do matter as individuals. You care about them because of their loyalty to their comrades, their struggle to be heroes in a setting where heroes can not exist, etc. And when the main character's squad-mate is killed in battle you care because it's the man he loved, not just another anonymous MEQ stat line removed as a casualty.

Imho, GW could probably rebrand slaneesh. Replace the "drugs, sex and rock and roll" with something that involves good, honest, clean extreme violence.

That would be Khorne you're thinking of.

 Traditio wrote:
Imho, GW could probably rebrand slaneesh. Replace the "drugs, sex and rock and roll" with something that involves good, honest, clean extreme violence.

Well Slaanesh is meant to be the extreme in all things, just GW seems to narrow in on one aspect of it too much.

People who seriously believe Slaanesh is nothing but "drugs, sex, and rock'n'roll" don't have a good handle on the fluff.

If you understood what Slaanesh actually represented, you'd understand that Slaanesh is one of the deeper, darker, Chaos elements.

The great part of the 40k fluff is that there's surface elements we can joke about (drugs and sex for Slaanesh), but then look at the deeper themes for something more mature.

Chaos gods are multi-faceted. Even Khorne represents more than "SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE" and "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD".

Yeah, like the Chaos gods also take in more positive emotions as well; such as Khorne with honour. Which is what makes them such a ever present threat to humanity over all the others scuttling around because chaos can never truly ever stop existing as a threat until humanity ceases to exist. That's if it doesn't latch onto another race as well before that.

Slaanesh feeds off stuff like a proud warrior getting a bit too proud of his skills and actually enjoys slowly corrupting noble heroes like this rather sadistically. Plus I think Slaanesh has the most interesting realm of the four, punishing whatever excess the mortal had specifically as a way of subjecting them to trials. Whether it'd be subjecting a governor who wants popularity to spend eternity having that but being paranoid of everyone and slowly driven insane from it, to just outright turning people into statues of gold for picking up even a single coin in a huge area of treasure. A peaceful looking beach where if you even stop for a moment to rest you'll be stuck in an unending sleep.

Basically Slaanesh likes to torment them with what they coveted the most.

Its also the feeling of never quite enough. Nothing anyone under Slaanesh can ever do to truly satisfy themselves. Its drinking everything you've ever loved but still being thirsty.

 Traditio wrote:

Imho, GW could probably rebrand slaneesh. Replace the "drugs, sex and rock and roll" with something that involves good, honest, clean extreme violence.

There's a lot more to Slaanesh than that; in fact, the mention of those kinds of overindulgence in the lore is fairly minimal. The main theme with Slaanesh as a whole is giving in to your pure desires and subsequently becoming a slave to her/him - drugs and sex are just a small part of it that seems to have been exaggerated by people.

Anyways, Peregrine makes a good point about emotional stakes in 40k not being there a lot of the time - any character in any work of fiction needs some kind of emotion to be loved or hated by the reader. To this day my favourite example of 40k writing done well is the videogame Space Marine. On the surface, the characters seem fairly pedestrian (frankly most of them are). However, on closer inspection, you'll find that the protagonist, Captain Titus, is perhaps the most likeable Space Marine you'll come across, certainly the best Ultramarine. If his willingness to defy the Codex Astartes and a resistance to the Warp was not enough, he shows incredible loyalty and protection towards both his brothers and the Guardsman Lieutenant he fought beside. Even after being sold out to the Inquisition by one of his brothers, after saving an entire world from destruction, he insisted that the Inquisition left them alone if he was to come with them (most likely a death sentence, given that this is the Inquisition, to turn yourself over as a "heretic"). He also said something to his backturning brother that is perhaps my favourite quote ever in 40K:

"The Codex Astartes is a set of rules. They guide us, shape us as Ultramarines, teach us to hold duty and honour sacred above all. But how we live with those rules is the true test of a Space Marine. And you have failed".

The cutscene in question, if anyone hasn't seen it already. Do I need to say "spoilers" for a half decade old game?


40k needs more characters like that; a lot of literature I've read from the 40k series has been forgotten months later, but the events of Space Marine have always stuck with me. Death, Bolters and explosions won't sell a character for you in 40k, and a lot of writers think that it can unfortunately.

Yeah, like with that proud warrior example. They'd keep wanting to get better and better and better and will never be satisfied with their skills; and that's usually when they fall to Slaanesh offering to help them get to that skill level and even then they never will.

Not sure if it's been said but:

Clearly the violence, the brutality, the dark themes of betrayal and insanity and what not are still here.

We're talking sexuality here, and whilst we can go on all day about ridiculous double standards between depictions of violence vs depictions of sexuality but the thing is

It's not just sexuality. It's not in a vacuum here. The problem is sexual(ized) violence.

This is a war game, and as such, the main focus is fighting, and violence. You throw sexuality into the mix, and stuff gets dark quick. It's not just a naked woman, it's not models depicted having normal, consensual sex. Especially given the vast majority of sexual themed models and concepts revolve around Slaneesh, stuff stops being about "just a titty" real quick.

And the thing is, that stuff is still in the lore. The books will detail darker aspects of humanity because it's an unfortunate truth of reality, and it's straight up scary too. But there is a big difference between a talented writer handling complex issues with some form of restraint and tact, and a bunch of us neckbeard looking dudes pushing round their lovingly painted heaving giant tittied demon women getting gorely speared or a bunch of 'roided out muscular Chaos Warriors with combat peens, yknow?

It's not even about kids. I'm a full grown adult, and I don't need to see that crap

i'd realy prefer to have a more aduls 40k lore

thake for example Game of thrones. its highly aduly. each charakter is a complex beeing. driven by emotions and such. of course. its not realy needed to show all that sex. doing the same and only hinting would be fine as well

the important part is. and this make it an aduld one : complexity. we get to know why there is conflikt. and also how each one is driven into it.

this is a much better showing of humand than in 40k. and i miss that part. i am tired of reading pages of pages of "bolter--porn"

Im fine with the game being PG13.

sexually suggestive is fine but i dont need boobs hanging out and making it REALLY awkward to bring these models out in public. regardless of if its art or not.