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Right, because all the power-gamers FLOCK to Tyranids. *Facepalm*

The Hailfire Rounds are the same as... Kraken, I think, rounds on the Sternguard.

Psibolts are better in strength, but worse in AP. Similar to Hellfire (Wounds MEQs on a 3 instead of a 4, and GEQs on a 2) but worse.

Disruption Rounds are very niche.

In addition, if you were paying attention, people earlier suggested paying points for each type of ammo. So sure, they're better than Strenguard. But they also cost more.

Fluff:
Sure, we can discuss rules independently of fluff. Personally, I love for my rules to tie into my fluff, but it's fair to discuss rules without looking at the fluff attached. We can call Thousand Sons "force-field marines with armor piercing bullets," and they represent that (perfectly valid) concept just fine. That said, I'm still not convinced that they really excel in a mechanical niche either, even if we did excise some of the problematic units in the game.

Big Stuff is Broken:
Sure. Imperial Knights, Wraith Knights, psychic death stars, etc. are all much more points efficient than Thousand Sons and require specialized tools to deal with. Thousand Sons are basically not meant to be played in the same game as multiple imperial knights. I can agree with that, and I'd be fine with many of the more powerful units in the game either existing within a "large-scale" ruleset made to accomodate them or simply being nerfed.

Ignore the Big/Broken Stuff, and Thousand Sons are Fine:
Here's where I disagree with you. You are correct that, in a world without scat bikes, battle cannons, and triptide wings, Thousand Sons are significantly more likely to meaningfully get into position and do something useful. However, I feel that the things they do well (like charge after shooting) aren't really enough to justify their high cost compared to other, similar units. Thousand Sons would still need to either walk across the table, hop in a fragile rhino, or take a relatively pointy Forgeworld drop pod to get in range to use their guns to their fullest and to assault. Those last two options prevent them from charging the turn they disembark. As the thousand sons cross the board (or sit around for a turn after drop podding), they will die to small arms fire just as easily as regular marines, but each body costs almost twice as much as a regular marine.

The 4+ invul is nice, but people will most likely simply opt to not waste quality firepower on a unit that is susceptible to quantity firepower. The charging after shooting is nice, but you have to cross the table. The inferno bolts are nice, but they're also irrelevant against any army that isn't big on good armor saves.

Tac marines, who are often considered a bad unit, will do more wounds than an equivalent points value of thousand sons by virtue of having more numbers. They'll also survive longer against quantity firepower by virtue of having more wounds, and they'll be effective against a wider range of targets by virtue of having special weapons, grenades, and perhaps an offense-friendly chapter tactics.

Sternguard lack the shoot-and-charge ability of the Thousand Sons, but their special bullets will pretty much always be effective against something, and you can take special guns to make them even better at various jobs.

Even within the chaos marine codex, you're possibly better off going with normal CSM than with Thousand Sons if you're looking for a unit that shoots and charges well. The champion is pretty much identical to the aspiring sorcerer in terms of offensive output if we aren't using force, but he also has the option to up his initiative or attacks with marks of either Slaanesh or Khorne. CSM with pistols and ccweapons won't shoot strength 4 as well as Thousand Sons, but they'll still put out 4 strength 4 attacks apiece on the turn they charge just like Thousand Sons. They'll also either be cheaper than Thousand Sons (meaning you get more wounds/attacks than the equivalent number of points) or else they'll have upgrades like marks making them more durable against small arms (Nurgle) or more dangerous in close combat than the Thousand Sons. They're restricted to the same delivery systems as Thousand Sons, but they don't lose access to those delivery systems. They also probably footslog better than Thousand Sons in our hypothetical environment where firepower is a bit more tame. More wounds means more bodies survive the trip across the table. Marks of Nurgle or Banners of Excess mean that they hold up against small arms fire better than Thousand Sons (who die like tactical marines), and marks of khorne/slaanesh mean the guys who survive the walk make up for their losses better than thousand sons.

Thousand Sons are probably better than people give them credit for if you're playing in a casual environment where especially powerful, meta-shaping options aren't as big a concern, but I'm still not sure they have much of a mechanical niche. Other units outshoot them except maybe against 3+ or 4+ expensive models that you catch out of cover. Against armies that don't have good armor, normal CSM offer similar killing power with more survivaibility and flexibility.

I think Thousand Sons are close to being pretty solid, but I'm not sure they're there yet. Looking at them purely mechanically, they're a little too expensive/squishy for what you get, and the number of targets that they kill efficiently for their points is kind of small. The things they are good at killing can probably mitigate this strength by getting a cover save and/or staying at a distance.

Somewhat on topic, how does everyone suppose Thousand Sons would do in Combat patrol? Knights and death stars aren't really a thing in that format. It's basically little guys against little guys with the occassional light vehicle tossed in. Theoretically, that's an ideal scenario for them, right? How do they hold up in theory?

 JNAProductions wrote:
Right, because all the power-gamers FLOCK to Tyranids. *Facepalm*

The power gamers who use the tyrranids codex certainly do.

And don't downplay flyrants. Ask Galef about this. Flyrant spam can go toe to toe with Eldar cheese.

The Hailfire Rounds are the same as... Kraken, I think, rounds on the Sternguard.

Sternguard kraken rounds are 30 inch range, AP 4, no ignore cover.

To ignore cover, you have to use the rounds that have 24 inch range and AP 5.

In addition, if you were paying attention, people earlier suggested paying points for each type of ammo. So sure, they're better than Strenguard. But they also cost more.

How much more should thousand sons cost? Let's assume in advance that you give them ammo which is roughly equivalent to sternguard.

Ok. But sternguard don't have slow and purposeful. They don't have 4+ invulns. And they don't come with an aspiring sorcerer.

By right, if you want sternguard with 4+ invulns and slow and purposeful, I'm expecting you to pay no less than 30 ppm, plus the 50+ points for the sorcerer.

My bad. I don't remember all the names of the different bolts. (Or the APs, apparently-I coulda sworn they had AP4 Ignores Cover.)

And you're missing out on the positively AMAZING Hellfire Rounds. Plus a 4+ Invuln is functionally the same as ruins in most cases. And Slow and Purposeful is both a good and bad rule, so don't pretend it's all upsides.

Edit:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Good Stuff

Good stuff, Wyld. I like that post.

 Traditio wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Right, because all the power-gamers FLOCK to Tyranids. *Facepalm*

The power gamers who use the tyrranids codex certainly do.

And don't downplay flyrants. Ask Galef about this. Flyrant spam can go toe to toe with Eldar cheese.

The Hailfire Rounds are the same as... Kraken, I think, rounds on the Sternguard.

Sternguard kraken rounds are 30 inch range, AP 4, no ignore cover.

To ignore cover, you have to use the rounds that have 24 inch range and AP 5.

In addition, if you were paying attention, people earlier suggested paying points for each type of ammo. So sure, they're better than Strenguard. But they also cost more.

How much more should thousand sons cost? Let's assume in advance that you give them ammo which is roughly equivalent to sternguard.

Ok. But sternguard don't have slow and purposeful. They don't have 4+ invulns. And they don't come with an aspiring sorcerer.

By right, if you want sternguard with 4+ invulns and slow and purposeful, I'm expecting you to pay no less than 30 ppm, plus the 50+ points for the sorcerer.

Flyrants:
Flyrants are indeed quite good. If you put them in a more compeittive codex like, for instance, daemons or even eldar, people would seriously consider using them over other options within those books. That said, tyrants are far from unbeatable. They're a very expensive unit that can't scratch high-armor models with their shooting (except for the haywire template). Many armies have enough high strength shots that the 3+ armor and ability to jink don't matter much. Tyrants that take advantage of their own psychic powers have a bad habit of occassionally falling out of the sky. Even flyrants who don't perils themselves out of the air will sometimes get shot down. They are scary in melee, but plenty of things will win that melee fight. What I'm getting at is that, yes, flyrants are good, but they're also very counterable. Their counters just aren't quite so straight forward as "melta guns will instantly blow up vehicles" or "I'll just melee harder than he does."

Purchasable Ammo and 4+ Invuls:
I imagine that, were special ammo types to become purchasable individually, Thousand Sons would have their base cost lowered to reflect this. So if you took one type of ammo, you'd probably be close to the current price tag. If you took two, you might be over the current price tag. If you took three, you'd almost certainly be a few points more expensive than right now. Remember, sternguard aren't ridiculously expensive, and they have special ammo that is almost always good in a given situation, not just against 4+ and 3+ armor saves that aren't in cover.

You dramatically over-estimate the usefulness of a 4+ save, I think. If your opponent is flinging tons of shots at you that have AP3 or better, then that 4+ is great! But what's more likely to happen is that your opponent will toss regular anti-infantry shots against you and make every unsaved wound hurt twice as much because you cost so much more than a normal marine. The invul is nice, but it's only really useful against weapons that are already AP3, and even then, only when you wouldn't already get a 4+ cover save. It's far from worthless, but it should make a MEQ's pricetag jump up by more than a couple points considering it's a passive defensive boost that only helps in semi-niche situations.

 JNAProductions wrote:
My bad. I don't remember all the names of the different bolts. (Or the APs, apparently-I coulda sworn they had AP4 Ignores Cover.)

Kraken, dragonfire, hellfire and vengeance rounds.

Vengeance rounds lose 6 inches in maximum range compared to regular bolters, have AP 3 and gets hot.

Dragonfire is normal bolters + ignore cover.

Kraken is AP 4 + 6 inches of range.

Hellfire is 2+ poison.

And you're missing out on the positively AMAZING Hellfire Rounds.

I love hellfire rounds. They're the primary reason I use sternguard. How much do you value hellfire rounds, pointswise? 24 inch range, 2+ poison. Almost worthless against GMCs. Almost worthless against FMCs. Useless against vehicles. Not really worth it against T3, 4+ infantry.

Yes, hellfire rounds shine when your opponent spams foot slogging MCs. But that's pretty much it. They're great against tyrranids players who don't spam flyrants.

Plus a 4+ Invuln is functionally the same as ruins in most cases.

Ok. Then let's remove the 4+ invuln, and if you want a 4+ save, you can park your thousand sons squads in ruins. And it won't be an invuln. It'll be a cover save.

How does that sound?

Oh, you don't like that? Then pay the fething points cost for a 4+ invuln.

And Slow and Purposeful is both a good and bad rule, so don't pretend it's all upsides.

If you think that slow and purposeful is "a good and bad rule," then fine. Let's just take it off of thousand sons. No more SnP for them. They have to decide whether to shoot OR charge in the same turn, but they get to overwatch. Just like everyone else.

You want to take that trade?

If your answer is "no," (and as someone who's played thousand sons, no, I don't want to remove SnP from them either), then you admit that the rule is more a benefit than a liability, and therefore should have a points cost.

Hellfire rounds are good against:

-MEQs in cover (Vengeance Rounds are not worth it when they have cover)
-Monstrous Creatures (even the flying ones-they might not have Skyfire, but 6s happen)
-Bikes
-TEQs (similar to FMCs, force enough dice and good things happen)
-Really, anything above T2, since it wounds better
-Oh, and the GMCs it's "useless" against? It can actually wound, whereas normal rounds can't (Assuming T8-A Stormsurge, you're better off with Vengeance Rounds, usually)

And honestly, I don't mind relying on a cover if they're cheaper. That 4+ Invuln ain't worth very many points. It does change TSons, since they now need cover just as much as anyone else, but weren't you the one who said fluff doesn't matter?

Lastly, Slow and Purposeful also denies runs. Which is hella useful for grabbing objectives. So yes, take away Slow and Purposeful! Let me run, and prance, and be free! (And, you know, fire Overwatch, or bolt pistols and charge.)

Based off the fact they wouldn't be able to Overwatch and don't even charge well into melee, I'd say it wouldn't matter if you removed SaP or not. That's how bad Rubric Marines are.

I for one would gladly get rid of 1Ksons 4++ in exchange for costing less points. Same with Slow and Purposeful

Special Ammo:
Hellfire rounds are good against more than just MCs! They're a nice way to toss extra wounds onto bikes provided the bikes don't have rerolalble super jink saves. In which case you'd use the cover-ignoring bullets instead. Against T3, they're actually quite good as the poison lets you reroll to-wound meaning almost none of your hits will fail to wound. Against T4, you don't get the reroll, but you do wound 5/6ths of the time instead of 1/2 of the time.

I'd say hellfire rounds are pretty darn good against things that aren't vehicles, GMCs, or deathstars that shut down almost all wounds. They're good and should be worth a decent number of points. Maybe four points per model? I could see them costing a hair more.

4+ Invuls:
I'd actually kind of be okay with Thousand Sons losing their invul and gaining a points decrease. I mean, I'd prefer they get a flavorful rule that ups their durability in a meaningful and fluff-appropriate way, but I'd prooobably rather save the points than have a situationally useful invuln. The 4+ invuln is mechanically okay. It's nice when your opponent sends lots of expensive low-AP attacks against you allowing you to halve the effectiveness of those high-quality attacks. It's even great when you're facing a low-strength, low-ap enemy like howling banshees or celestians with power swords. The problem is that a smart opponent will usually avoid wasting quality attacks against a unit that mitigates them effectively.

Slow and Purposeful:
S&P helps Thousand Sons more than it penalizes them. Missing out on overwatch isn't too big a deal when your guns are strength 4, and footslogging is a bad idea for them meaning they should either be in a transport or shooting instead of running. Therefor, I agree that it should probably add more points to a rubric marine's points cost than it removes. However, the downsides of S&P should also limit just how big a points increase we're talking about. I think 1 or 2 points is resonable for them.

JNAProductions wrote:-MEQs in cover (Vengeance Rounds are not worth it when they have cover)

Oddly enough, I don't think that this has ever come up for me. My main army is a crimson fists (imperial fists chapter tactics) battle company + 1st company task force with 20 sternguard.

I don't really play against marines much, but even when I do, this generally doesn't come up.

-Monstrous Creatures (even the flying ones-they might not have Skyfire, but 6s happen)

It's not worth it against FMCs.

Against a flyrant, not taking IF chapter tactics into account, I have a:

1/6 X 5/6 X 1/3 = 5/36 X 1/3 = 5/108

Each hellfire round has roughly a 1/21 chance of causing an unsaved wound against a flying MC with a 3+ armor save. Even if we're talking about a flying MC with 4+ armor, that's still only a 5/72, or roughly a 1 in 14 chance, of causing an unsaved wound.

No, statistically speaking, sternguard are worthless against flying MCs.

-Bikes

Fair enough.

-TEQs (similar to FMCs, force enough dice and good things happen)

I forgot about TEQs. But against most TEQs, it's not even worth it. Even if you get into rapidfire distance, you're doing maybe 2 unsaved wounds. And after that, your sternguard squad is gone.

-Really, anything above T2, since it wounds better

False. I just played against Skitarii today.

T3, 4+ armor with 5+ cover. Hellfire and kraken ended up being roughly identical, statistically speaking

5/6 ( to wound) X 1/2 ( to bypass the save) = 5/12 = 15/36
2/3 X 2/3 = 4/9 = 16/36

-Oh, and the GMCs it's "useless" against? It can actually wound, whereas normal rounds can't (Assuming T8-A Stormsurge, you're better off with Vengeance Rounds, usually)

Virtually useless.

Let's assume I consign 14 sternguard to their dooms against a(n unfairly) roughly points equivalent wraithknight:

14 sternguard X 2 hellfire rounds a piece = 28 shots. 28/1 X 2/3 (to hit) = 56/3. 56/3 X 1/6 (to wound) = 56/18 = 28/9. 28/9 X 1/3 (to bypass armor) = 28/27. 28/27 X 2/3 (to bypass feel no pain) = 56/71.

28 rounds. Not even one wound is gauranteed. And on the next turn, scatterbikes fire, wraithknight fires and wraithknight charges. Goodbye sternguard. You did absolutely nothing.

And honestly, I don't mind relying on a cover if they're cheaper. That 4+ Invuln ain't worth very many points. It does change TSons, since they now need cover just as much as anyone else, but weren't you the one who said fluff doesn't matter?

Purely from a game mechanics standpoint, I don't care about fluff. If you want to remove the 4+ invuln, then yes, you can lower T-sons points costs. That's perfectly fine. I have no rules objection against this.

Lastly, Slow and Purposeful also denies runs. Which is hella useful for grabbing objectives. So yes, take away Slow and Purposeful! Let me run, and prance, and be free! (And, you know, fire Overwatch, or bolt pistols and charge.)

Why aren't your t-sons in rhinos? Or in a landraider? Why are they running?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wyldhunt:

Let's put this in perspective:

Legions of the damned get:

3+ armor, 3++ invulns. Deep strike shenanigans. Ignores cover on everything. And slow and purposeful.

25 ppm.

T-sons, imho, are pretty comparable. Their current points cost isn't too far off.

Ignores cover is WAAAAY better then ap3, especially since LotD get special and heavy guns. They also don't pay a sorcerer tax.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Ignores cover is WAAAAY better then ap3, especially since LotD get special and heavy guns. They also don't pay a sorcerer tax.

As I've said before, I don't view the sorcerer as a tax. It's a model with a 4+ invuln and a force weapon. Yes, using it for witchfires generally isn't a good idea, but that's why you put Ahriman in your army. I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

Why the feth do you care what psychic powers your aspiring sorcerers have? You're not paying their points cost for them to do witchfires. They're feeding Ahriman.

Worst case scenario, Ahriman dies. But you automatically get firestorm of tzeentch and force, and I don't think that's bad, especially the firestorm. 1 warp charge for something that can end up doing an S6 small blast at 24 inch range. And you can still fire AP 3 bolters and boltpistol in the shooting phase.

Worst case scenario, you've paid 58 points for a durable model that rides around in a rhino and feeds ahriman.

Best case scenario, you've paid 58 points for a durable model that slaughters MEQs in close combat...and feeds Ahriman.

That model is NOT durable for almost 60 points. Also how the hell are you getting that force weapon into melee?

You don't think when you type is the issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also you're better off Ahriman with another CAD of two Cultists and a Sorcerer. 10 more points for super efficiency.

 Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Ignores cover is WAAAAY better then ap3, especially since LotD get special and heavy guns. They also don't pay a sorcerer tax.

As I've said before, I don't view the sorcerer as a tax. It's a model with a 4+ invuln and a force weapon. Yes, using it for witchfires generally isn't a good idea, but that's why you put Ahriman in your army. I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

Why the feth do you care what psychic powers your aspiring sorcerers have? You're not paying their points cost for them to do witchfires. They're feeding Ahriman.

Worst case scenario, Ahriman dies. But you automatically get firestorm of tzeentch and force, and I don't think that's bad, especially the firestorm. 1 warp charge for something that can end up doing an S6 small blast at 24 inch range. And you can still fire AP 3 bolters and boltpistol in the shooting phase.

Worst case scenario, you've paid 58 points for a durable model that rides around in a rhino and feeds ahriman.

Best case scenario, you've paid 58 points for a durable model that slaughters MEQs in close combat...and feeds Ahriman.

Because it still is in the point cost. You pay 150 pts for 5 1ksons (one of which happens to make a WC and has a force weapon) meaning you are paying 30 points per 1ksons

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That model is NOT durable for almost 60 points.

Terminators have 1 wound, a 2+ armor and 5+ invuln. They don't generate warp charges. They don't have the force USR. They also don't come stock with fearless. They also don't have ranged AP 3 bolters.

35 ppm minimum.

Also how the hell are you getting that force weapon into melee?

This is a problem with the core rules, not with t-sons. Assaults from stationary vehicles used to be a thing. They stopped being a thing, and rightly so, because transports were ridiculous in 5th ed. They're not ridiculous now. Other people complain about transports being too weak now. I think they're fine. But assaults from stationary assaults should be a thing now. I don't have a problem blowing an incoming rhino to pieces in 7th ed. Once you disembark from that rhino, you should be able to charge if you want, so long as the rhino hasn't moved on your turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CrownAxe wrote:Because it still is in the point cost. You pay 150 pts for 5 1ksons (one of which happens to make a WC and has a force weapon) meaning you are paying 30 points per 1ksons

What's your point?

You were trying to compare them to LotD which are 25ppm who are better at shooting and are more durable the 1Ksons which are 5ppm more expensive then a unit which is better then they are.

and Legion of the Damned aren't even close to broken. How does that make 1Ksons look?

For the same price as the minimum Rubric squad, you can get 5 LotD with a Plasma Gun and Multi-Melta.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That model is NOT durable for almost 60 points.

Terminators have 1 wound, a 2+ armor and 5+ invuln. They don't generate warp charges. They don't have the force USR. They also don't come stock with fearless. They also don't have ranged AP 3 bolters.

35 ppm minimum.

Also how the hell are you getting that force weapon into melee?

This is a problem with the core rules, not with t-sons. Assaults from stationary vehicles used to be a thing. They stopped being a thing, and rightly so, because transports were ridiculous in 5th ed. They're not ridiculous now. Other people complain about transports being too weak now. I think they're fine. But assaults from stationary assaults should be a thing now. I don't have a problem blowing an incoming rhino to pieces in 7th ed. Once you disembark from that rhino, you should be able to charge if you want, so long as the rhino hasn't moved on your turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CrownAxe wrote:Because it still is in the point cost. You pay 150 pts for 5 1ksons (one of which happens to make a WC and has a force weapon) meaning you are paying 30 points per 1ksons

What's your point?

Those Terminators (which you think are good yet nobody else does) get a Power Fist and Deep Strike and the ability to Overwatch. Nobody thinks Terminators are good and you're trying to compare them to Rubrics, which aren't good either.

Like, what's the point?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Actually I'd argue more durable to Cannons and Baleflamers. There's around 10 Marines in a squad to your six. This means two things.
1. The flamer won't get all of the Marines, but about 2/3 of the Rubrics will be covered. That means special weapons can be safe to go another round, and therefore the reduction in firepower is not as significant. Compare that to Rubrics, where 2-3 will die and their firepower is even worse.
2. The same logic will apply with the Battle Cannon.

Therefore I'm fine with having Vanilla Marines in the open rather than Rubrics. They're garbage in all aspects of what they try to do and you need to accept it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Remember: you get two Marines for a little over a Rubric. That says a lot.

1.) Stop applying different standards to different units. You were talking about cover why are you all of a sudden talking about out in the open. If your guys are in cover, then the're in cover. You don't get to change the rules when ever it suits your fancy. If you stick your guys in cover to avoid dying from plasma fire then I will use the Baleflamer on you. If you don't then I use the plasma on you either way your losing way more guys then you would if you had Thousands Sons.

2.) If you want to compare Thousands Sons to CSM then take 7 1K Sons (161 points) and 10 CSM with 2 Plasma Guns.(160 points) then place them in exact same situations and see who comes out on top.

A.) Three Crisis Suits with two plasma rifles.



B.) Flying Tyrant is Just inside rapid fire range and the only unit that can fire at it for whatever reason is the compared squads.



C.) They shoot at each other while in the open. We will assume rapid fire range



If you do this you will find that the only time CSMs have an advantage is when there is 2+ armor is present, toughness 7+, and large hordes the first two is very noticeable and the last is marginal depending on the horde. On the other side any time a 3+ or 4+ armor save is present 1K Sons have a noticeable advantage. Now just looking at those two things alone the only conclusion a rational person can come to is that due to the fact that there will always be much more 3+ and 4+ on a table compared to 2+ or T 7+ you would be much better off having a unit of thousand sons over a unit of CSM due the the versatility they bring to the table.

Rubrics are 150 base. I stopped reading after you said 7 of them is 161.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Rubrics are 150 base. I stopped reading after you said 7 of them is 161.

Yes a 1k sons unit is 150 points base and 58 of those points are an Aspiring Sorcerer. What I was talking about was 7 rubric marines by themselves. which is 161 points. If you don't know gak about the unit then you probably shouldn't draw any conclusions about them. What with your being ignorant and all. If you want to include the sorcerer we can but then CSM are objectively worse in every situation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Warzoner wrote:
So a friend and I were having a discussion about the Tzeentch discipline in the CSM codex and how giving FnP to your enemy was kinda the weirdest idea GW ever produced. Then, out of nowhere, I had this crazier idea : what if the ammunitions of the Thousand Sons (who are already AP3) forced a unit which suffered wounds from it (at least one) to pass a thoughness or leadership test, and if the test was a failure, then one model was to be removed to be replaced by a Chaos Spawn (under the TS player's control) immediatly placed in CC with the unit in question.

What do you think of this idea ?

If you want to add something do this.

Inferno Bolts- S4 AP3

Guiding Runes: When a unit with this special rule shoots at a unit suffering from the soul blaze they can either re-roll to hit or to wound this is decided before and rolls are made.

That's not how it works. You're to take the unit as is and not add special adjustments to help prove your point. The math is to be done with 5 Rubrics and a Sorcerer who doesn't even have a Boltgun.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's not how it works. You're to take the unit as is and not add special adjustments to help prove your point. The math is to be done with 5 Rubrics and a Sorcerer who doesn't even have a Boltgun.

And yet that is what you have consistently done through out this entire thread. When people present you with situations where the 1K Sons would have an advantage you simply change what your doing to get the CSMs the advantage. Stop changing your requirements stick to one thing. If your in cover because you don't want to get chopped up by AP 2/3 fire, then your crammed together near the front of that piece of cover to get everyone to fire, if you spread out so you don't get killed by a Template/Blasts then not all of your guys are going to be able to fire and if you want your plasma to fire then they need to be near the front which means they die first not last. No matter what you will lose, where a 1k Sons unit has to do none of that. On top of that you have just ham-stringed your movement to WORSE then 1K Sons. On top of that your very vulnerable to Psychic Attacks of all kinds where as my unit will get both an invul save (where it applies) AND get DtW on 5+ with an extra dice to roll for DtW. The only place you would "preform" better is when facing a horde army which relies on weight of fire and mass bodies and the only reason for that is because you have more bodies both units would die just as fast as 1K Sons.

You literally created a loadout for the Rubrics that cannot be done. That's your issue.

For 173 it is the 5 Rubrics and a Sorcerer. For 170 it is 10 Marines with two plasma guns. 180 makes it with a Combi-Plasma. 178 gives those Rubrics a Melta Bomb.

The cult marines should be nasty. And that's coming from a BA player. The cult marines should be downright filthy. (And be priced accordingly).

Tzeentch psychic discipline
Primaris Power: Bolt of Change S8 Ap1 24" Beam, 1 Warp charge
1-2. Mass Mutation - blessing, 12", 1 Warp charge
Target unit gains Random attacks and Fear special rules, until end of the game.
Target can re-roll it's 'Vessels of Chaos', 'Mutated beyond reason' and 'Slaves to the Voices' rolls whilst the power is in effect.
3-4. Warpfire storm - witchfire, 24", 1 Warp charge
S6 Ap3 Assault 1, Large blast, Ignores cover
5-6. Doom of the Architect - malediction, 24", 2 Warp charges
Target can't re-roll any dice whilst the power is in effect.

Icon of Flame
The unit's ranged attacks with bolt weapons have Ignores cover special rule.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You literally created a loadout for the Rubrics that cannot be done. That's your issue.

For 173 it is the 5 Rubrics and a Sorcerer. For 170 it is 10 Marines with two plasma guns. 180 makes it with a Combi-Plasma. 178 gives those Rubrics a Melta Bomb.

No my issue is your flawed logic. Your saying that your unit is totally spread out while in cover and they are all able to fire, you cant have all of those unless your playing on a map that is all cover. If you want the plasma rifles to shoot then they need to be at the front not the back, which means they die first not last. You are trying to say that CSM have every advantage when they don't.

I'm sorry, what's flawed with my logic?

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You literally created a loadout for the Rubrics that cannot be done. That's your issue.

For 173 it is the 5 Rubrics and a Sorcerer. For 170 it is 10 Marines with two plasma guns. 180 makes it with a Combi-Plasma. 178 gives those Rubrics a Melta Bomb.

No my issue is your flawed logic. Your saying that your unit is totally spread out while in cover and they are all able to fire, you cant have all of those unless your playing on a map that is all cover. If you want the plasma rifles to shoot then they need to be at the front not the back, which means they die first not last. You are trying to say that CSM have every advantage when they don't.

I politely disagree. The tables I see around here are usually pretty thick with Ruins. Combine that with the unreliable nature of an aspiring sorcerer's psychic attacks, and the marines don't necessarily have a great reason to spread out unless the chaos forces happen to have a hell turkey or some blast weapons as well. Which they very well might, but they very well might not either. Twelve inches isn't a lot of range, but isn't all that difficult to get reach with a unit that can drop pod into position either. The more unrealistic thing about the scenario is that these two units would shoot at one another for multiple turns without getting ganged up on or assaulted by other units. Which I suppose is technically a point in the tac marines' favor as they would really only realistically be in position to fire their plasmas once or twice anyway.

It's also worth pointing out that tactical marines aren't generally considered to be especially good for their points either. So even if rubricae can compare reasonably well against them, that's not necessarily saying much.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm sorry, what's flawed with my logic?

You keep saying that your guys are all spread out in cover and all shooting at the same time.

How are you Spread out with 10 guys in cover? You need at least a 7" x 7" piece of terrain and you would still have 1 guy not in cover.

Wait? How are they all shooting at the same time as being all spread out? I'm apparently slowed and ran my squad in range of your entire squad? No I'll position my unit so that my entire unit is within rapid fire range of 1 guy in your squad and get as many shots as you do, but my shots are 3 times as effective as yours with out cover and twice as effective with 5+ cover. What? your in a building okay, units on different levels will have different ranges which means they still wont be able to all shoot at me. Your going to back them up so they all shoot at the same range then some of your models aren't going to be able to see at all.